a lot to deal with/part 3....footballfan & dutchie

New Topic Locked Topic Printable Version
78 posts in this thread.
Viewing Page :
 1  2  3  4 
[ << Previous Thread | Next Thread >> ]

olivia of course
Veteran Member


Date Joined Jul 2006
Total Posts : 1523
   Posted 10/13/2007 10:46 AM (GMT -7)   
I created a new thread because the other one was getting too long
--------------------------------------

I agree with the letters/journaling to each other. Sometimes it is easier to put it down on paper than it is to say it in person. I hope this helps you in your relationship Dutchie and Foodballfan. I am glad you are agreeing to do something together, this is a good thing. Best Wishes!
Olivia
Co-Moderator, Bipolar
 
Dx:  Bipolar I, Anxiety-Panic Disorder
Support HealingWell: 
http://www.healingwell.com/donate
"Don't let your yesterday, ruin your today"


dutchie
Regular Member


Date Joined Jun 2007
Total Posts : 88
   Posted 10/13/2007 4:23 PM (GMT -7)   
Mogs....this is just a little hello to you. We are wondering how you are doing.?? You continue to be in our thoughts...we are wishing you well.

Thanks LFW/Olivia and Dasa for your encouragement. Though things continue to be hard to deal with as far as the guilt and shame I feel like FBF and I are truly developing a deep relationship. I know we are still looking down a long road of healing, but the committment and love I feel inside, I know is strong and I feel it is strong enough for both of us on the days FBF struggles.

Thanks for your support everyone...we really appreciate it.

Dutchie

mogli
Veteran Member


Date Joined Mar 2006
Total Posts : 1191
   Posted 10/13/2007 5:25 PM (GMT -7)   

Dutchie,

Thank you so much for the hello.  I honestly just sat down to post a message to you.  So weird the way things happen like that.  I have been reading some of your posts, and I just sometimes don't know what to say, to FBF.  Sometimes reading how he feels I become confused.  I guess I just don't know what to say to help him become "un-stuck" with his feelings/not being able to move past the pain.  I know it's going to take time.  But I want both of you to be happy.  I wish the hardest part was all over with.

Dutchie, I hope you are conitinuing with your support group and all of your goals.  I am so proud of you and I think of you all the time.  I hope that on your down days you are as supportive to yourself as you are with me and others.  You are such a strong person to be dealing with all of this.  FBF is as well. 

School is awesome.  I am still in the 90's.  Perfect attendance too.  This week I got a nasty cold, but I managed to go to school everyday.  And I rested today so I should be much better by Monday.  I am proud of myself.  And school is keeping me so busy that sometimes I don't even have time to notice my moods! :-)  What are your days like now, what is keeping you busy?  I hope your girls are well.

Well, I am going to read some other posts and then get back to some homework before bed.  OH-My bf and I are doing okay.  Sometimes I wonder if that's because I am depressed much less...The only time we seem to have the problems is when I am depressed.   Anyway, I am going to try to communicate with him as much as I can when I am not well.  You and FBF (and so have others) have given me such great advice with that whole situation and I appreciate it so much.  I will try and keep posting to you both more. 

Take care of yourself, and FBF too.  Hugs.


Mogs
 
Bipolar II, Anxiety/Panic Disorder
.5mg Clonazepam, 50mg Trazodone
--Currently not on meds for bp--


loving frustrated wife
Veteran Member


Date Joined Jun 2007
Total Posts : 865
   Posted 10/19/2007 8:32 AM (GMT -7)   
Hi guys, Just thought I'd send you good thoughts...LFW

footballfan
Regular Member


Date Joined Jun 2007
Total Posts : 63
   Posted 10/21/2007 9:01 AM (GMT -7)   
Thanks for the thoughts LFW. It has been a very difficult week.

We went to our councellor yesterday and talked a lot about my feelings of wanting to move on. I don't like to talk so openly about how I feel because I see the impact it has on Dutchie, she has been very anxious this week and the physical symptoms tend to become overwhelming for her. Sometimes I think I should just bottle up my feelings and not discuss them.

Wednesday is our anniversary (15 years). To be honest I don't know if it is something to celebrate or mourn. I see the work Dutchie is doing but there is just something in me that has a hard time believing in anything. She asks me to open up my heart to her so she can help me but when there is no trust that can't happen. I have told her that I am the worst person for this to happen to, the way I think and analyze things even when I am not trying to makes it very difficult to move forward. We are still discussing the idea of informing his wife, Dutchie has said that she will go over and talk to her but I said that wouldn't be a good idea because she will get her butt kicked. I just don't know if the good that will come from informing her will outweigh the bad or not.

I am very proud of Dutchie, she has continued her healthy lifestyle and has lost 70 lbs now. That's a huge number! It's strange to see her motivated and driven, she has never been like that and I feel bad for feeling she will eventually give up like she always has in the past. I am not trying to be negative, I am just used to the way she has always been. I encourage her as much as I can and I love to see her strength (mentally and physically) growing. When she hit 70 lbs I saw something that I have not really seen in her before, she was proud of herself.

Still working. Thanks for the thoughts and support.

serafena
Veteran Member


Date Joined May 2007
Total Posts : 3715
   Posted 10/21/2007 11:55 AM (GMT -7)   
Whoa! Seventy pounds! Since when? That's amazing Dutchie! Congrats!
Serafena
Co-Moderator, Bipolar Forum

It is a melancholy of mine own, compounded of many simples, extracted from many objects, and indeed the sundry contemplation of my travels, in which my often rumination wraps me in a most humorous sadness. -- William Shakespeare


loving frustrated wife
Veteran Member


Date Joined Jun 2007
Total Posts : 865
   Posted 10/21/2007 12:29 PM (GMT -7)   

FBF, open is ALWAYS good, at least then you both have something to work from that’s real. That isn't to say it won't be, and isn't, painful, but really it is the only place you can begin to heal and find a new path to your heart. I know you are stubborn, and I know you are highly committed to your position that you have "always" been this way about forgiveness and such, but unless you allow yourself to learn something new about yourself to, and ALLOW yourself the right to "change your mind on your position", or you allow yourself to grow in this way...you are no different than a person running from the truth when diagnosed with anything – because you will be preventing growth and change. And your running itself will end up being the end of it all for you. FBF...life is messy, life is painful, and if we don't learn to forgive, it will be a very lonely life in the end as WE keep ourselves separate from others to protect our lives from having pain. That is not really living...that's fear. Plus, using your situation, it would be a very different story if Dutchie had not so thoroughly embraced and worked to conquer the BP dx.  But according to you, she has…Since then, she has grown and learned and according to your acknowledgements...begun to really change in all positive ways.  Separate from the weight issue, which is still quite an accomplishment, I am talking to the person she is becoming.  Perhaps she has earned a step or two from you towards hope?  A step or two towards moving beyond the past?  A step or two towards learning and earning a smidge of trust from you?  I know your history makes you fear this too will in the end fail, and it will all go away, she won't stick with it...BUT, has she stuck with ANYTHING before this consistently, or for this length of time?  Remember, you now know EVERY flaw your spouse has, and you are learning some of your own.  You now know ALL the signs and pitfalls with your spouse (and up until the affair – you accepted the old relationship)...Pastures ALWAYS look greener in the “fantasy” of starting over…but those fantasy’s are NEVER how reality plays out.  Plus, someone new leaves you COMPLETELY vulnerable to a world of pain you haven't even imagined...and you WON"T be able to trust as you don't know them "inside out".  I am sure you keep all this in mind as you stay so HIGHLY COMMITTED to that position of yours…  AGAIN…I remind you…ALL positions can change if you allow them to…regardless of what you think.

 

I also want to point out to you something I keep noticing…every time you come up with a game plan to start to take action to help YOU begin to process this and start finding closure about it…(write a letter to the wife [sending it or not...just even the writing of it would be helpful]), go speak to the wife, write in a venting journal all about your rage, mistrust and anger... pin his picture to a punching bag and HAVE AT IT...whatever...you talk yourself out of action. This is how you keep yourself stuck...please consider revising that plan!  And YES, you should look at possible consequences to your actions first by all means...but pick something on your list and start doing it. Allow movement to take place that attempts to point you in the right direction towards your wife and family with some healing.

As to your anniversary, perhaps it is not about celebration or mourning...it is about acknowledging. It is about acknowledging the past...good and bad...it is about acknowledging the future...good and bad. Maybe it is a good time to play the game..."if from this point forward I could have it my way...my dream would be...???" And then tell each other. Share where you would LIKE to be in 2, 5, 10 years time…etc.  You may find out you are on the same page (and that doesn't mean you will necessarily know how to get there, or believe even that you will...just that it is your first choice or your dream). And you may find you are not on the same page...so even all the "work" you are doing is counter productive as you are working at cross purposes. But the fact is...you have been together for 15 years of marriage and that at least needs acknowledging. It can be a card, a letter to each other, it can be dinner just the two of you at McDonalds, or a nice dinner for two at your favorite restaurant, or just a toast to each other after a nice meal at home...whatever. It can be about friendship, partnership...not necessarily romance. You decide…but, it should be something.

CONGRATULATIONS ON YOUR ANNIVERSARY YOU TWO!!!!!!!!!! DON"T GIVE UP AND KEEP WORKING...BOTH OF YOU!!!!!!!!!! 15 years MATTERS!!!!!!!!!!! Hugs to you...LFW

Post Edited (loving frustrated wife) : 10/21/2007 3:42:28 PM (GMT-6)


mogli
Veteran Member


Date Joined Mar 2006
Total Posts : 1191
   Posted 10/21/2007 5:58 PM (GMT -7)   

Dutchie,

I don't believe you are going to give up.  You have worked so hard and that proves so much.  Just because someone was a certain way in the past does not mean they cannot change, and I think you have really worked hard to change your ways.

Don't lose faith in yourself, and don't doubt yourself.  You are strong and you can get through anything.  And way to go with the 70lbs!


Mogs
 
Bipolar II, Anxiety/Panic Disorder
.5mg Clonazepam, 50mg Trazodone
--Currently not on meds for bp--


olivia of course
Veteran Member


Date Joined Jul 2006
Total Posts : 1523
   Posted 10/21/2007 7:13 PM (GMT -7)   
I wanted to wish you both a Happy 15th Anniversary!!!
 
Dutchie congrats on the 70lbs, all I can say is wow!


Olivia
Co-Moderator, Bipolar
 
Dx:  Bipolar I, Anxiety-Panic Disorder, PTSD
Support HealingWell: 
http://www.healingwell.com/donate
"Don't let your yesterday, ruin your today"


dutchie
Regular Member


Date Joined Jun 2007
Total Posts : 88
   Posted 10/23/2007 1:49 PM (GMT -7)   
Thank you everyone for the weight loss encouragement. I'm at seventy lbs. now ( since about Jan/Feb 07) My secret is simply healthy eating and exercising 1/2 hr. a day. I have a gazelle machine (sort of like a ski machine) for 15 minutes and I rotate through toning exercises...arms, abs and legs. FBF has been a tremendous encourager. He loves to cook , so he makes me wonderful meals. I am eating more flavourful foods now than I ever have. FBF also helps encourage with the exercising and ensures that I keep proper technique. I am very lucky to have this suport.

Also thanks to those who wish us a happy anniversary. It is a very difficult time. It's hard to know how or if to celebrate. As sorry as I am for my past...I am very thankful to have FBF as my husband. I do truly feel blessed by that. However I'm not so sure FBF is quite so thankful. We have been going through a really hard time emotionally. I am struggling with guilt and shame, while FBF struggles with....does he want me...does he want this? There are days when he is sure he doesn't. He has said that the only reason he is here is because of the girls. As great as that is to want to keep the family together...it hurts pretty deeply to hear the words "I don't want you".

I understand everything I have done...I realize that I have striped him completely of faith, trust, and belief in me. I try to encourage him that it will come back for him in time. I understand that my words mean nothing to him. But he admits that it is in him so strong...that basically he sees no promise for the future..I tell him over and over again that he will feel no more pain from me....but when it feels like that is exactly what I am causing him, that is a very difficult thing to live with. Maybe it is a selfish thing to ask...but I want him to "want" to be here.

I came to the realization last night and this am, that perhaps I am not handling things as well as I thought. FBF and I had a lengthy discussion last night about talking and still holding stuff in. I came to realize that I was trying to accomplish/fix and work on things too much by myself. I was not using my "resources" as FBF pointed out. (him,family,Healing Well, books etc) I know I get overwhelmed easily, and that is exactly what was happening. I was trying to bring so much good stuff back into my life, that I was feeling overwelmed, my mind would race....not the way it did before. I wanted to do it by myself. Not for the reason of trying to close FBF out or in an attempt to "avoid" anything...these were all things I was recognizing; but there is satisfaction in getting things accomplished for myself.
Anyhow, we had a good discussion and we came to some very important conclusions.

Can anyone talk to me about anxiety, and the affects they may suffer. This is something else that I am realizing, that I don't think I am handling the stress and anxiety as well as I should. I really do not want to be on a med full time for it. But there are times when I feel so consumed by the sadness, that I don't feel I can function. There are days where I can cry at any given moment...and that is not a nice feeling. As well, in the last couple of weeks I will be feeling fine one minute and then all of a sudden I will get the sweats, I can't concetrate, and get almost an instant headache, and feel sick. I know it is not a lack of food thing, because I always make sure I have food in my to avoid any type of depleated feeling.

I see my family doc Nov.1, so I will talk to him about it but I would appreciate any info you can share.

Keep sending your good wishes and encouragement, it is appreciated so much. I pray every day that FBF "wants" to stay, "wants" to feel the love, and "wants" work forward for a future together.

Thanks again
Dutchie

serafena
Veteran Member


Date Joined May 2007
Total Posts : 3715
   Posted 10/23/2007 7:04 PM (GMT -7)   
Hi Dutchie:

I've primarily lurked for most of your story, since so many people have weighed in, and it seems a particularly complex and fraught situation. I'm hoping you both make out okay, whatever that okay ends up being, and I have to admit that unlike some people on the board, I don't know that I have what's going to be the popular voice of encouragement here.

I mean ABSOLUTELY no disrespect here, FBF, none at all. I have no idea what you've gone through and mean to cast NO judgement upon you. But I have to say Dutchie, if I were living a life where I got up every day and went to bed every night not knowing whether my husband respected me enough to decide to forgive me or not, I wouldn't be able to stand it. Your lives have been in limbo for nearly a year now. If it were me, I would have insisted my husband make a decision and follow through on it by now, because I am not a woman who can live a half-life. I want in or out. I am not surprised you are beginning to suffer anxiety. I don't mean to imply at all this is somehow FBF's fault. Things are far to complicated for that. I simply mean to say that despite everything feeling so much better than it was, it's still not all right.

Your description of sudden sweats, headaches, etc, does sound like panic attacks. Definitely let your family doc know. You probably don't even need to wait until the 1st. I'd call and try to get an appt. before then. There's no need to suffer through them. They're easily dealt with and life is much nicer without them. The doc'll probably add some anxiety meds to your cocktail if you don't already have some.

All my best to you both,
serafena
Serafena
Co-Moderator, Bipolar Forum

It is a melancholy of mine own, compounded of many simples, extracted from many objects, and indeed the sundry contemplation of my travels, in which my often rumination wraps me in a most humorous sadness. -- William Shakespeare


loving frustrated wife
Veteran Member


Date Joined Jun 2007
Total Posts : 865
   Posted 10/23/2007 9:51 PM (GMT -7)   
Dutchie, you say that you don't feel you are utilizing your resources around you as fully as you think you should. Too much "going it alone" business. GOT IT. And I get that FBF says that his "hurt and anger" is SO deep. GOT THAT TOO...but here's the thing...between you, I see you reaching out far more than I see FBF. I do not mean this as judgment...just an observation. I don't get ANY sense of him "reaching out" to assist him with his pain and anger issues with any desire to help them dissipate so he can one day forgive you as his first choice, other than to go to therapy and express his desire to leave you because his anger and distrust is SO big. But I am not getting a sense of any work on his part beyond that stuff. I know he is tired of hearing me say it, but ALL the things he points out to you...he needs to say to himself as well. And just as he desires you take action to make those changes and do that work, and you desire it too - and you seem to do it, he needs to as well - which I don't see. Forgive me, I care so much for you both, but I also do think Serafena has a point. The sitting on the fence that he is doing is GREATLY contributing to your anxiety level in my opinion at this point. And while he claims support, he in some ways is sabotaging potentially some of the success. A person can be as angry as can be...down to their core...but if they WANT to find a way to help the pain dissipate...they DESIRE to learn how to forgive…they can. Part of that is whether he is willing to let all your doing affect him positively or not. My sense is he is refusing to allow it. The work to be done ALWAYS seems to be about you, never him. Again, this is absolutely not meant as judgment, just an observation. I have never heard anything about what HE is doing to make your lives better, what he is doing to help his pain diminish. And I do HEAR his pain and understand it….but….then what? I have heard about how he doesn't want anyone to know...and says this is about you, not him. I have heard about how he feels rageful and wants to tell the wife, but then he stops himself about finding a way to deal with that rage..., again and again he talks himself out of taking any action to help get out those feelings inside him out, and again he says this is about you, not him. While he says he is proud of you, there is nothing about happiness that if things continue in this vain of all these positive changes taking place for you, possibly you two will make it after all and that would make him happy. I don't ever hear him say he WANTS to get past it, even if he doesn't know how. He just says that he is keeping himself in the house and WAITING to see if those feelings change for him. But, without ALL the hard work on his part too…time will not change what he refuses to LET change. Living like that is bound to make your recovery harder living under that stress. I know how much you love him, and how you think faith and time will make this better…but it won’t if HE won’t let it. He first has to decide if he wants to let it, and he has to do HIS work too. Again, anniversaries don’t always have to be about the “great” years together…sometimes there are hard years, but to acknowledge the years together, good and bad, is important to do. While acknowledging the difficult time your in, add in the work towards a better future…even some baby steps if that is all you can manage towards some goals together.

I don’t think it is horrible that his desire to hold the kids family together is a motivating factor in his staying at the moment, but then HE has to do the work too. Not just you my dear, otherwise, you are holding nothing together except the waiting game until he finds a way to blame you for his exiting. The sense is he is waiting for you to mess up so he can “be right” vs. “happy”, and justify his exit. FBF has some decisions to make. I really feel he doesn’t understand that the only thing he has to do to move this forward in a positive way, is to FIRST decide he wants to. That ISN”T to say you’ll make it in the end as a couple…but at least BOTH of you will certainly be TRYING to make it work, not just one of you, and you will both be facing in the same direction. As it is, it does not feel like you are.

Again I want to share how much I care about you both, and how I fully respect how difficult and genuinely hard this all is. But put things in perspective…you didn’t murder anyone, you had contributing and REAL complications, and you are working hard to own it all, and permanently be able to make the changes towards wellness to ensure never returning to such a dishonorable place. Under these circumstances…nothing is unforgivable…nothing. My hugs to you both. LFW

Post Edited (loving frustrated wife) : 10/24/2007 12:34:56 AM (GMT-6)


sukay
Veteran Member


Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1432
   Posted 10/24/2007 3:26 AM (GMT -7)   

Hi Dutchie,

I too am also like serafena; I have been reading along.

I'm glad that serafena said what she did because I absolutely agree.

I also agree with what LFW stated in her last post to you.

I think FBF will be doing you both a favor as soon as he starts to make some positive changes for his self. Right now I think how he is behaving and treating you is verbally and mentally wrong. It sounds like he is never going to let you live this down. He sounds like he is going to make you pay for the rest of your life. I think he needs to make some decisions for himself and poo or get off the pot already and let you go on with taking care of yourself instead of all the guilt and shame he makes you relive. What more does he want from you?

You even said, he said he was only staying in the relationship for the kids. He doesn't see getting past this. He needs to get help for himself and get over his anger. He is putting everything on you and that is not fair. I don't like the way he makes you feel all the time. Now you are dealing with anxiety issues because you are so overwhelmed with everything.

This of coarse is just my opinion. LFW says is so politely. I hope that you and FBF read and re-read her post over and over again until you both absorb it. LFW hit it on the head!

Wishing you both wellness.

 


~Sukay~
 
Crohns Disease-Remicade since 1999, Methotrexate
Fibromyalgia & Arthritis
Bipolar & Panic/Anxiety-Trileptal, Xanax, Trazadone, Wellbutrin


dutchie
Regular Member


Date Joined Jun 2007
Total Posts : 88
   Posted 10/24/2007 5:45 AM (GMT -7)   
Ladies..thank you for your posts and your support. Please understand that I am not looking for an easy way out. Would it be nice to live without the pain...yes of course. But I do look on what I may be experiencing as consequence for my actions. FBF is not intentionally trying to hurt me or make me suffer in any way. We both have to suffer through the consequences unfortunately. I told FBF last night if I could take all his pain away I would. It is so difficult to see him in this pain. It is like he has NO hope for the future, and he is not even sure he wants that hope. I have told him he will not know unless he tries, but I think I have hurt him SO deeply, that he doesn't know how. (I'm not saying this is exactly how he is feeling...this is what I am feeling from him)

FBF has been remarkably supportive, but when it comes to the actual moving forward of the relationship, I think he feels completely hopeless. I know it not just a switch he can turn on to say..."OK today I am going to feel good and I am going to commit...and I'll trust her again". FBF is working with essentially nothing...not hope , faith , belief, and that is where he is stuck. I don't believe it is out of stubborness...I think it is out of complete pain and protection of himself.

I tell FBF that I will be at his side everyday, and I will honour him as my husband. I will be as strong as I can, even when he can't, and I will not turn my back on him again, and I will carry the hope and faith when he can't.

We discussed last night his frustration with me not dealing with these past issues ( one was the fact thatI talked poorly of him to some people I worked with). His frustration is in me not thinking of a way to correct that action. Yes I would like to correct such past actions..but I have been concentrating on the things that I can do now and for the future. I would love some help or ideas on how to deal with and face actions of the past. I do truly want to move forward, and FBF pointed out that these things need to be addressed in order to do that.

thank you everyone...I have to cut short to get the girls to school
Dutchie

footballfan
Regular Member


Date Joined Jun 2007
Total Posts : 63
   Posted 10/24/2007 8:18 AM (GMT -7)   
Ladies: I understand your views, and in some ways I see you are correct but in a lot of ways I realize that you are seeing our situation through a computer monitor and not living it so you don't see everything and you have to go through what we post. I don't post a lot about the work that I am doing because it isn't my main focus, maybe it should be but it isn't. It would have been very easy for me to just call it quits when this first came out, I haven't done that. I post regularly to this site, I go to counselling every week, I talk openly and honestly with Dutchie and I talk to my parents regularly for support (2.5 hours the other night). I have told Dutchie that I could easily pretend everything was ok and move on and have a relatively normal life with her all the while not committing or expecting to be happy but does that do any good for anyone? I would rather work through everything. I do talk about the desire to leave, it is there so I talk about it. Is that wrong? It would be so much easier if I didn't discuss it, it would be easier if I just said that I forgive and now we can move forward, it would be easier if I said that I trust her and have faith in her. Everything would be easier if I pretended that all is well, I am not going to pretend, I am not going to say words that have no meaning. Everyone says that time heals and yet I am giving time a chance and all I hear is that I am not doing anything.

We talked a lot last night about fixing the past. It is something that I have thought about since the beginning but I haven't discussed it with Dutchie for the simple reason that I have wanted her to come to the realization herself. I told her that not once has she mentioned that she feels bad for his wife, that although this has been very destructive to our relationship it has also been very destructive to his. I don't know if you ladies know this or not but when guys get together the conversation is a lot different than if the wife was there. The jokes and jabs at the wife come out and it becomes a one up to the last guys comment. I have always disliked that and never participated in it, I find it very disloyal and disrespectful to the person you are sharing your life with, basically if you have something to complain about then complain to the person and not behind their back. I always felt good that I wasn't like that and I knew Dutchie wasn't like that either. When I found out that she was like that it really bothered me, I told her that it bothered me but her attitude is basically that what is done is done and you can't take it back. That's right you can't take it back, but you can put yourself out there to those people and admit that you were wrong. I am not saying that I want Dutchie to go around telling everyone that I am some wonderful person. She always says that she wants me to want to stay, in the same manner I always wanted her to want to do everything in her power to repair the past damage, that is what I would have done if I were in her situation to prove that everything I was saying now had some actual meaning to it. I explained that by me telling her all of this it loses it's meaning, if she were to step up and try to fix the past problems now it would just seem like she is doing it because I asked her to. That isn't what I have wanted, I just wanted her to want to do anything to fix things. It would have meant a lot.

Unless you have gone through this you really don't know what it is like. Everyone (including me) thinks that if this happened to them they know how they would react, they would tough it out and fight for their marriage or they would just pack up and go or they would do this or do that. You honestly don't realize the full range of feelings that are involved, you don't realize that it makes you feel completely worthless, you completely lose faith in yourself. It isn't a simple choice to try to make your marriage work it is a complex decision that whether people admit it or not wavers back and forth between wanting it and having a complete desire to get rid of it. I know it is all very difficult on Dutchie, I am sorry for that and I wish it was simple but it isn't. I have read that getting past this can take a couple of years, I really don't want to feel the way I do for a couple of years and I don't want Dutchie to feel the affects of it for that long either. Sometimes the thoughts of being gone are not just for me, the thought that I wouldn't be here making Dutchie feel bad would actually be a good thing for her so she can manage her bp better. That thought probably doesn't make sense but it is a thought I have.

I know none of your postings are meant as judgement, but there is a recurring theme that Dutchie is doing everything right and I am not doing anything to move forward with her. I am simply being open and honest and if it makes me appear a certain way then so be it, but I am going to continue to tell it the way it is and express everything openly and honestly, good or bad. That is the way I am.

Thanks for the thoughts.

loving frustrated wife
Veteran Member


Date Joined Jun 2007
Total Posts : 865
   Posted 10/24/2007 1:23 PM (GMT -7)   
FBF, I can hear in your post that you clearly feel attacked. I don't feel that ANYONE has meant it that way, so please do try to not take it that way if you can. I know that I am only sharing back to the two of you my observations (I truly do not hold any judgment on them). We ALL can sympathize with the pain and devastation you are feeling. And the main issue is the feeling of betrayal by your partner, and while the stories may be different, we have all been cut to the quick at one time or another by betrayal. And we all wish there was a way someone had a magic pill to send you to make it go away. But, as you already know, there isn’t. You are “putting it out there” in the most honest way that you know how, and YES that IS a good thing. Nothing about this is an easy situation for either of you. I think what you are hearing though is the “what’s missing” in the information either you are not sharing with us, or potential areas for you to explore for yourself. What I mean by this is the example of you wanting to leave…you don’t ever communicate with that, how much feeling that way is so opposite what you ultimately want – which is - if at all possible to get past this – so you can stay and be happy with Dutchie again. But instead, it always seems to be what you said at the beginning which is to make Dutchie well enough so you can leave. If what you REALLY want is to find a way past this, not that you have the answers as to how or when because you are still blinded by pain, then say that to. Both statements can exist and be equally true. Time sadly won’t heal this without work to go along with it and clear choices being made. That doesn’t change the waffling of the feelings that emerge, nor does it validate it. Those swings are expected. But, if the underlying commitment to a conscious choice you are making is there, then that is all they are for the moment…swings. And then those swings dissipate as you heal. I am not sure I just made full sense there, but did you understand what I meant?

I can really understand how hurt you are about what Dutchie might have said to others about you in her “trash” talk stuff, and how it isn’t true and that really bothers you. That is fair enough. However, asking for what you want and need, and her responding to it in some way to try to clean it up and help, does not devalue it because you had to ask for that. Hon, you know that NONE of us are mind readers, and NONE of us is the same…we all can think differently on the same thing, and sometimes one person will handle things one way, and another would handle it different…both with the same intent…just both with different ideas that came to them about how. The fact is that Dutchie HAS done things to try and make it right. She has FULLY owned what she did, admitted what she said, apologized to you with utter sincerity, given you full rights to your pain, is available to sit and listen to it as often as you need – never saying “okay, okay…get past it already…I’ve apologized enough” (as many others in her situation have), and is doing all she can to live her life with you to genuinely honor what the truth is – not the “trash” stuff she spewed, and has not for a minute tried to minimize or hide her responsibility about what she did, all while working to master and live with BP as healthy as possible for ALL of you. That is all a lot. However, you need more in addition and there is NOTHING wrong with asking for that, or needing that. The fact that you have to ask, and she responds to it to try to expand her efforts should NOT minimize it AT ALL for you. In fact, you can help her create an action plan of “cleaning it up” that will be what you need from it. For instance, you could decide that she should write each person from her work a letter and take back the things she said; she could ask those people over for tea on a Saturday afternoon and sit them down and tell all of them at once about what she said that isn’t true about you, is not proud of it, and here is really what is true; she could go to coffee one on one with each person from her old work and tell them. (If you don’t like the idea of her being with those people alone, then ask someone to go along…whatever.) But if this is what you would need to help you begin to heal…IT IS OKAY TO ASK FOR IT!!!!!!! Quite frankly, it is one of the healthiest thing I have heard you do. Our whole point on much of the feedback is about how it is SO focused solely on Dutchie, it is as if YOU get lost. You don’t allow yourself the things YOU need to heal. You want to be telling the truth, YOUR NEEDS HERE ARE PART OF THAT TRUTH…not just your pain. Does that make sense? These are doable action items and certainly things that can be done. They should not be minimized by asking for them if you are being met with the response of “I will do whatever you need”. Owning what you need is part of what YOU need to do. So the fact that you finally took a step like that…GREAT!!!!!!!! Good for you!!!!!! Be proud of yourself…it is a good thing.

If you haven’t figured it out…and I think I can safely speak for many….we ALL want to see you both heal, both find personal happiness again, and YES…find your way back to each other again. Please keep sharing with us, we’re here, we’re your HW friends, we genuinely care about both of you. It is only through the “actions” you take that will allow the healing to move forward. Allow yourself those actions like writing the letter to the wife, the venting journal, the devising a plan about what you need in this with Dutchie and ALLOWING yourselves to follow through with it. You are both in my prayers…LFW

serafena
Veteran Member


Date Joined May 2007
Total Posts : 3715
   Posted 10/24/2007 10:13 PM (GMT -7)   
I echo LFW's sentiment that I meant no disrespect FBF. I sense you felt attacked and I am sorry for that. I rarely see anyone as doing "everything right" while seeing someone else as doing "everything wrong." I simply meant to reply to Dutchie's question about anxiety.

FBF: I actually have had a relationship with an unfaithful man, and I did choose to stay. We didn't have children and we weren't married (although we were engaged), so it was not exactly the same as you and Dutchie, but I knew he was unfaithful from about 3 months in and we ended up being together for 3 years. I stayed with him because I loved him, loved him, loved him. I was so crazy about him. Ultimately it was he who ended it. Years later I think I know why -- because I didn't have the self-respect to end it myself.

The entire time we were together, I wanted to know where he was every moment of every day. I didn't trust him as far as I could throw him. I always wanted to know who he was with and what they were doing. I was paranoid that another woman was with him. In fact, I was always pretty much paranoid about every little thing he did. FBF, I hear the same paranoia in your discussions about Dutchie: she's losing weight, but is it too much? She's talking about me at work, but is it too nasty? What's she saying? Who's she seeing? What's she doing while I'm working?

It's true you have no trust for her now. But from what I've read of your descriptions of your marriage before the affair, you didn't really trust each other before. Correct me if I'm wrong Dutchie, but didn't you say you never wanted to contradict or bother FBF when you were unhappy? That's a lack of trust. It sounds to me like your marriage had no trust to begin with. You're only now starting to build it. It's trust that makes it okay to moan about how annoying your honey is with your friends in the break room at work and go home to your husband in the evening and give him a huge, genuine kiss. ("He drives me crazy but I love him!" What woman doesn't say that?) It's trust that makes me know that my husband can go have lunch with a beautiful colleague at work and know that nothing's going to happen. But more importantly, if he something did happen, there's nothing I can do to stop it. I have to just trust him to tell me when we've got a problem and need to fix it. Likewise, it's trust that makes him know I'll help him fix any problems we have rather than just clam up and pretend everything's okay. Because, like Dutchie, I'm the bipolar one, and my emotions are the unpredictable ones.

Don't get me wrong. I don't have a perfect marriage. Again, I don't believe anyone does. But one of the things my husband and I have insisted upon from day one is trust. How are you going to build a marriage without it? In my opinion, that's where you both need to start. Stop worrying about the details -- stop worrying about the other couple's marriage, what Dutchie said at work, etc, and start wondering why you don't really, truly, fundamentally trust each other.

Again,
All my best,
Serafena
Co-Moderator, Bipolar Forum

It is a melancholy of mine own, compounded of many simples, extracted from many objects, and indeed the sundry contemplation of my travels, in which my often rumination wraps me in a most humorous sadness. -- William Shakespeare

Post Edited (serafena) : 10/24/2007 11:24:29 PM (GMT-6)


Need Advice
Regular Member


Date Joined Sep 2007
Total Posts : 26
   Posted 10/25/2007 6:10 AM (GMT -7)   
FBF
I completely understand what your feeling. My wife is Bi-polar and had an affair a couple years back. Honestly, we've been to counseling, talked about it, dealt with it and seemed to act like it's resolved but it isn't and that's been a long time ago. There are so many feeling that must be sorted out, looked at and dealt with inside yourself that I'm not sure how long it takes to get through all of them or if you ever do. I always said if a woman was unfaithful I was gone " plenty more out there that wouldn't be," but I'm the one that chose to stay. At first because of the boys then wasn't sure why then loved my wife but even now feelings haunt me that have not been resolved. Due to the fact my wife can't handle conflict well I just shove these feelings down. I commend you for talking to Dutchie the way you do. How great would it feel for me to tell my wife I think about leaving all the time - whew - but we are not there yet - it's great you guys are. I can say there is a great love between the two of you to be able to talk and communicate the way you do. As far as the things your experiencing I understand everyone of them. Even now when my wife will say some she discussed somthing with some guy - immediately in the back of my mind - want to know what he has that I don't - what he's got to offer - so on and so on. It's a tough thing for a man to handle - I'm sure a woman to but I can't speak for them. Anyway I hope you guys work it out - you seem to really love each other - As for me I guess that's what keeps me hangin on - the love I have for my wife is deep enough that I just have to handle it in other way than leaving. Sometimes though it's almost unbearable. Gook Luck to both of you!

serafena
Veteran Member


Date Joined May 2007
Total Posts : 3715
   Posted 10/25/2007 10:14 AM (GMT -7)   
Hi Need Advice:

It's so good to have you chime in!!!! I think FBF could really use a male voice here :-) and one that has been through something similar. Again, it's good to have you. I'm sorry to hear about your struggles, but it's a useful voice you bring to our community. Thanks.
Serafena
Co-Moderator, Bipolar Forum

It is a melancholy of mine own, compounded of many simples, extracted from many objects, and indeed the sundry contemplation of my travels, in which my often rumination wraps me in a most humorous sadness. -- William Shakespeare


mogli
Veteran Member


Date Joined Mar 2006
Total Posts : 1191
   Posted 10/26/2007 5:02 PM (GMT -7)   
FBF,
 
With all due respect, everyone has shared their thoughts b/c you asked us to.  And to be honest, I have held back a bit b/c it is your marriage, and that is something between you and Dutchie.  I can understand both sides, I think we all do (as much as we can)  But again, you have asked us for advice and for our thoughts.  I also agree with what serafena and sukay said.  And we're not saying you should pretend, no one has suggested that at all.  I think we just feel it's time you focus on dealing with your issues and making a decision.  It's so unhealthy to live in limbo etc.
 
We are here for both of you, we have been from the beginning. 
 
 
 


Mogs
 
Bipolar II, Anxiety/Panic Disorder
.5mg Clonazepam, 50mg Trazodone
--Currently not on meds for bp--

Post Edited (mogli) : 10/26/2007 6:11:41 PM (GMT-6)


dutchie
Regular Member


Date Joined Jun 2007
Total Posts : 88
   Posted 10/27/2007 9:14 AM (GMT -7)   
Good morning everyone.

I just wanted to add a little post note to this week's correspondence. You should know that FBF does not feel attacked by anyone...he realizes that yes these are all just opinions. But everyone needs to remember that yes there are good days and there are close days, but it is the difficult ones that need to be talked about, and feelings shared and venting happening. It was a very difficult thing for me to grasp as well, and I am not saying I am just going to fly through those difficult days in the future. FBF and I, I feel, have really made some progress this week, and the opening up and sharing has gotten even bigger. I was completely stuck on wanting to hear a definite "yes" he was committed to all of this and "yes" we will be together 10/20 years from now. I worried that if he did stay, that it would only be for the girls, and meanwhile he is living in a marriage where he does not feel love. That was an extreme worry of mine. In one of our talks I expressed this and his answer was (in a nut shell) "don't worry I would stay that long." Strangly, that gave me some comfort. I truly do not want him to stay where he is not happy.

As well, I think I was consumed with trying to take his sadness away...trying to take his pain away, and thinking that by concentrating on the now and the future and what I can offer, that is where my focus was. Past events was someting I thought about....feeling bad for his wife, feeling bad about the trash talking (and understand this trash talking was not merely regular banter....I dissed him for the attention of some of the men I worked with) Yes, I had these bad feelings, but because I felt like I could not "fix" the past...I focused, like I said on the here and now and the future. It is difficult, because I want, and I want to offer FBF, some closure on such past events. Our councellor said, as far as dissing him to people in the past...basically why bother with these unimportant people now..as long as I am not doing that now. And I have said that I will honour him as my husband everyday. Closure is a difficult thing to attain...especially with wanting his wife to know.. There is great fear in the unknown. I am not worried for my character, but as you all know , we are from a small town......so yes there is fear in...am I going to be drop -kicked out of the blue one day...are the girls going to suffer in any way...are our brake lines going to be cut one day (I know some of this may be overly dramatic) but we don't know how she will react.

Please, everyone understand that in the 2 months before the actual affair came out, I lied continually. There is no belief systym in FBF right now. But as far as committment, I have come to realize....he is still here....we are still talking...we are going to the councellor together every week...there really is so much positve going on...and I have learned to be very thankful for that. I may be talking like a very strong and together person here, but when I am down and he is down and expresses his thoughts of wanting to leave, or whatever feelings he is experiencing, yes it is devastating, and the pain takes over, but I need to remember that he is going through a hugely difficult emotional realm, and to look at the big picture of "he is still here and working on us."

Like I said I feel like we both made some great breakthroughs this week. I know there will be more dificult days, more tears, more feelings of hopelessness, but for the first time I have a feeling like we do both want this to work ultimately...but there are lots of feelings and emotionas that yes I would rather come out now, and dealt with, than to have him bury them, and 10 years down the road he blindside me with a " you know I really don't love you...I'm gone."
As painful as this is to go through...I caused it, I've got to suck it up and help us heal. I won't let the bp symtoms and triggers make me a victim in this.

I want to use the resources I have, him, family members, you people---thank you all. Please don't stop, we appreciate your advice. Thank you for letting us both vent and for you continued support.

PS As you know this week was our 15th anniversary..There was anxiety from us both on "how" this day should be recognized. FBF gave me a picture of a swan that was so nice and so sentimental. It was about the sweetest thing I have ever recieved. I love my swan picture. FBF probably has about one of the biggest genuine hearts you will find, and I think maybe that is why the pain runs so deep for him. I give him credit for wanting to deal with it and not bury it. Burying it is certainly the easiest way to deal with it...trust me I know from how I dealt with everything before. FBf is not burying it, but I feel, even though it is painful, it is the best way, and it and God will bring this to the proper conclusion.

Thanks everyone!
Dutchie

serafena
Veteran Member


Date Joined May 2007
Total Posts : 3715
   Posted 10/27/2007 7:11 PM (GMT -7)   
Dutchie:

Thank you for your further candid thoughts (you are both so amazingly honest -- it's something else!) I would be frightened to find myself with an unwilling husband 10 years down the line as well, but it seems you both are talking those things out and negotiating everything -- all the more likely it will most likely work out okay. He would be gone by now if his love for you weren't very real. I love the swan picture. How sweet. What did you get for him? *Unless, of course, you don't want to share.*

serafena
Serafena
Co-Moderator, Bipolar Forum

It is a melancholy of mine own, compounded of many simples, extracted from many objects, and indeed the sundry contemplation of my travels, in which my often rumination wraps me in a most humorous sadness. -- William Shakespeare


dutchie
Regular Member


Date Joined Jun 2007
Total Posts : 88
   Posted 10/27/2007 8:00 PM (GMT -7)   
Serefena

Thanks for the encouraging words.

The swan picture IS very sweet and the story that goes along with it is even sweeter, but forgive me for not sharing...although I shared it with my mom, it is something I want to keep for me and my heart.
For FBF...OK I have to start at the beginning. Through our councelling we learned that our councellor is actually an artist...she is actually more prominently known for her art that as a councellor. Anyway she gave us a photo album of some of her art to look at in the summer, and really liked some of her pieces. In the last year we redecorated our living room, and have a couple of bare walls still because I am undecided as to what I want up. In September FBF was looking at the wall and said we need a _________ (councellor's last name) up there. So I slipped her a note at the end of one of our sessions, asking her to recreate one piece in particular that FBF liked. We have the painting now, and it is gorgeous. I told FBF that if he has nothing else in life, he can always look at that painting and know that his very best friend wanted that for him.

And as happy as I am to have gotten that painting for him, and hope that it means something to his heart, I don't think it could compare to my swan picture. I feel a lump in my throat even as I write this.

Dutchie

mogli
Veteran Member


Date Joined Mar 2006
Total Posts : 1191
   Posted 10/28/2007 7:17 AM (GMT -7)   

Dutchie & FBF,

A belated Happy Anniversary.  I am touched with your anniversary stories.  I really do hope that you both can stay together and be happy, together.

 


Mogs
 
Bipolar II, Anxiety/Panic Disorder
.5mg Clonazepam, 50mg Trazodone
--Currently not on meds for bp--


dutchie
Regular Member


Date Joined Jun 2007
Total Posts : 88
   Posted 11/1/2007 1:06 PM (GMT -7)   
I am just wondering what info any one can give on the drug clonazepam. I went to my family doc today and explained to him the feelings of anxiety that come over me at times. Some of this stuff is still new to me so I don't even recognize it as anxiety. Sometimes out of the blue I get the sweats and an instant headache, and kind of a feeling of dizziness. Other times it is just the sadness of the situation and I get caught up in crying, and it feels like I can't stop. Other times it is just a feeling like I could cry at any given moment. These are not nice feelings, as I am sure many of you can relate. Anyhow I thought maybe he would give me something just for those times, but clonazapam is something I would take everyday. I don't think that I need something everyday, but he seemed to think this would work well. I also hear horror stories of weight gain...I don't want all my hard work going down the drain.

Thanks for your help

Dutchie
New Topic Locked Topic Printable Version
78 posts in this thread.
Viewing Page :
 1  2  3  4 
Forum Information
Currently it is Saturday, December 03, 2016 4:48 AM (GMT -7)
There are a total of 2,732,004 posts in 300,981 threads.
View Active Threads


Who's Online
This forum has 151148 registered members. Please welcome our newest member, Cary Breef.
175 Guest(s), 3 Registered Member(s) are currently online.  Details
lynbrez, Hope 196, Redwing57


Follow HealingWell.com on Facebook  Follow HealingWell.com on Twitter  Follow HealingWell.com on Pinterest
Advertisement
Advertisement

©1996-2016 HealingWell.com LLC  All rights reserved.

Advertise | Privacy Policy & Disclaimer