Need help with tolerance question!!!!!!!!!!

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OnSuboxoneTherapy
Regular Member


Date Joined Aug 2008
Total Posts : 21
   Posted 8/19/2008 8:17 AM (GMT -7)   
Hi everyone. 3 weeks ago I deceided to go off the Oxycontins that I was legally prescribed for a severly chronic pain condition. It was my choice to do this b/c I was tired of the stigma behind it and tired of hiding this from friends. My immdeiate family knew I was taking these. I had been on opiates for a total of 14 years of which the last 10 were OC. I was taking 160mgs. 80 in the am and 80 in the pm. I also was prescribed medicine for anxiety which was ativan, clonipan and xanax over the years. I weaned myslef off of these over the past few months. I have been on disability for an operation 2 months ago and 3 weeks ago started suboxone 24mgs b/c I was misled into thinking that this would help the pain. Well, it doesn't touch it. My old dr. that gave my the oc will not have anything more to do with prescribing them ever again b/c he is scared after the pharm company pleaded guilty to lying. My question is... how long does it take for the body to become less tolerant of pain meds after you have substituted them with suboxone? I would like to avoid taking oc in the future and would like to be able to just take percs or hydro for severe pain as needed. Thanks for any help. Again, I have a 14 year history with opiates. Also, would it be hard for another pain doctor to see my reasoning behind my motives and prescribe these in the future?

Scarred_for_life
Veteran Member


Date Joined Jul 2008
Total Posts : 1559
   Posted 8/19/2008 9:10 AM (GMT -7)   
IMHO I do not think that it would be hard to find another doc that would help you. I am wondering why you were hiding it from your friends? Did they know about your pain? You took yourself off the med?? Without the consultation of a doctor? Most who want off their medications are very open and honest with their doctors and have them help with getting off the medications so I do not understand why you did this on your own without a doctor. I'm really I guess not understanding the whole doctor and pharm thing....if you could clarify I think I would though (understand).

Scarred
HEALTH ISSUES: Herniated discs at S-1-L5, L5-L4, L4-L3. Two level fusion (2000); one level fusion (2002); Revision at L4-L3 (2003). Diagnosed with Failed Back Syndrome, Permanent Nerve damage and Chronic Pain

Medications:

Kadian, Lexipro, Percocet, Temazapim, Lunista, and Robaxin.


PAlady
Veteran Member


Date Joined Nov 2007
Total Posts : 6795
   Posted 8/19/2008 10:10 AM (GMT -7)   
Dear "On",
I do think you may have a hard time finding a doc and others who understand your reasoning if, as I'm interpreting it, you d/c the ocy on your own without your prescribing physician's oversight and knowledge. It is difficult enough for most of us to have our pain adequately treated and to do that we have to work closely within our doc's parameters - even when they're not particularly reasonable. Some of the pieces here don't quite fit for me - especially the mention of the pharmacy lying. But I do think another pm doc is going to raise an eyebrow to all this.

As far as questions about withdrawal times, etc., that is highly individual and you need to consult your doctor and maybe your pharmacist for more info. IMHO.

PaLady

OnSuboxoneTherapy
Regular Member


Date Joined Aug 2008
Total Posts : 21
   Posted 8/19/2008 3:14 PM (GMT -7)   

PA Lady. Thank u for responding. Here is the answers to the questions that u raised. Back when the pharmaceutical company executives pleaded guilty and openly admitted to not being honest to the highly addicitive properties of oxycontin (they were fined $600 million ) my primary has not felt "comfortable" in prescribing me oxycontin. He has tried unsuccesfully over the past year to wean me down due to the chronic overwhelming pain that I have. I suffered a severe burn to a part of my body that has the most nereve endings of a woman's body. enough said? lol Anyway, I am in a job where I am not allowed to take opiates on the job and thought since I was going to be on disabilty anyway, now was the time to try and see how my pain truly was. My primary "tricked" me into thinking that suboxone was a great pain reliever. Boy was he wrong. Men can't understand the delicate pains we have as women especially to the "down there pain". Imagine having a chemical acid over applied to that area??? You can't even imagine the pain and burning. I sit on the pits of hell everyday. I just finished my last surgery and just can't take it. Do you think that a pain specialist will see the reasons for doing this and try to put me back on my dose? I am requesting all my medical records from my primary and I WILL NOT return any of his calls. He called me 3 times today to see how I was coming along. Forget him. He should have told me to see a pain specialist or found one for me insted of leading me down this road of misery. Thank you PA Lady.

 

 

L


ryand
Veteran Member


Date Joined Dec 2007
Total Posts : 639
   Posted 8/19/2008 3:43 PM (GMT -7)   
Hello, On. Welcome to the forum. I am so sorry for your pain, but I think you have come to the right place to find support.

One thing I think many of us who suffer chronic pain have in common is that we have been through at least one negative experience with a doctor, therapist, or pharmacist. Sometimes all three. And sometimes many experiences. It is terrible to be in a position like this - feeling as though you cannot trust the people you have turned to for help. I understand your frustration with your doctor. He told you a medication would help you, and it hasn't. I know you are hurting, and sometimes it is difficult to see beyond our pain. I am worried that you are closing this door with your doctor too quickly, though. I would not want you to suffer as a result. Many people actually do say that suboxone has some pain relieving effects, so I don't know that your doctor was trying to deceive you. He probably really thought it would meet your needs - be a way to get you off the oxy without increasing your pain.

If you stop communicating with him now, his records will reflect that. For example, you say he has called three times to check on you - well, his records probably note that you've not returned those calls. The thing is, if you find a good PM or a new PCP, they will want to see your records from this doctor too. You don't want them to see any indication that you were uncommunicative or that you did not consult the doctor before making medical decisions. I know you are just wanting to find a new doc, and if you don't feel comfortable with this one, then that's the right thing to do. But you may want to at least consider continuing to jump through the hoops with this doc until you've secured a new one. Just to be sure you leave him on the best of terms - for your own sake.

This is just my two cents worth. I know I don't know the whole situation. I do see that you are truly suffering, and I wish there were more I could do to help. Know that you can come here and talk to us at anytime! We're here for ya!
Ry

PAlady
Veteran Member


Date Joined Nov 2007
Total Posts : 6795
   Posted 8/19/2008 5:04 PM (GMT -7)   
Dear L,
First, I'm sorry I didn't welcome you to the forum before! Consider this a belated hello.

I would also agree with everything Ry has said, especially about the "hoops". Since you seem to have already decided to d/c the oxy (although I'm still a bit confused, because it seems your doc wanted you to d/c because of the publicity about oxy?) then that's one thing you SEEM (I'm still unclear, as noted) to have decided this independent of your PCP, you don't want to add not returning phone calls. As a matter of fact, I would return the calls so they at least can document that the suboxone isn't helping your symptoms - and I'd describe that so it gets into the record.

My brain is a bit foggy these days so forgive me if I forget or miss details, but did this PCP refer you to a PM specialist yet? If not, I'd request a referral. Ry is right, though, suboxone can help with pain. My cousin is a pharmacist and she has recently told me she's been to seminars about how it's underused in pain management. BUT she has also said the dosing is very important. It needs to be titrated very slowly until a therapeutic dose is reached. I wonder how much experience your PCP has with subox. I really think that should be done by a PM specialist, but maybe an increase in the dose could help. So my suggestion would be to call your PCP and make sure it's noted the current dose isn't helping, and see if he's willing to help you UNTIL you get to a PM specialist.

I certainly do feel for you regarding your injury and the nerve endings there are plentiful indeed. I am so sorry this happened to you. Have the surgeries helped? Most definitely you should be with a PM doc, and a team of people. Have you seen a good female therapist who specializes in pain management? Just having someone to vent to (we're here - but someone in person, too) could help. I notice the anxiety meds. and that's understandable. I wish I could help more.

I can't tell you about how long it would take re: detoxing. I'm not a doc or a pharmacist. You aren't alone, though, in what you've experienced from the attitudes of others, and the ignorance about suboxone re: use for pain makes things even worse. Yet if it turns out it might help, it's worth trying to find pharmacists and others who understand - and explaining/educating your family. We can help with those things as many of us have dealt with it in one form or another. You can read that in a lot of posts. On the other hand, it is also possible the suboxone may not work for you, and you may need to return to the oxy. Again, all things considered, most of us accept the best pain meds. and other strategies we can find - but this doesn't mean we like them.

I don't know if this helps. I feel like I'm rambling a bit and I apologize if anything's confusing.

PaLady

Hello~Kitty
Veteran Member


Date Joined Jun 2005
Total Posts : 610
   Posted 8/19/2008 5:58 PM (GMT -7)   
Hello Onsub,
 
          I too am taking suboxone 24mg a day (8mg every 8 hours). I just started taking it a couple of weeks ago after being on other narcotics for 6 years. I am not sure on what exactly it's doing for my pain but I do notice that I'm not in as much pain as I use to be, but yet I dont feel like the sub is knocking out the pain like other narcotics do. But you have to remember that sub is 25 times more stronger than morphine. So we're taking approx. 600mg worth of morphine daily. but you have to remember that with sub, less is more, From what i've studied, is that people get more pain releif and ephoria from taking less that 6mg daily of subs. I know of a very good forum that ALL about suboxone if you want, just let me know and i'll give you the websight. It explains more there about the pain releif and the whole "less is more" thing about subs. I recommend that anyone that is taking suboxone or wants to get off narcotics go this websight. They have great people there that are very supportive just like here. I'm usually juggling between there and here all day long. ANyways, have a great day everyone.
 
-hellokitty

Tirzah
Veteran Member


Date Joined Jul 2008
Total Posts : 2284
   Posted 8/19/2008 8:01 PM (GMT -7)   
Hi OnSub,

just wondering if maybe your doc would be willing to try you on something else. There are a lot of other options out there besides Suboxone & Oxy. Maybe he would be more comfortable prescribing something else. Perhaps that was even what he was calling to discuss with you? Don't know unless you call back, right?

The others are right about a lot of docs having "hoops" that you need to jump through. Fortunately, my current PM is not like that. I was straight with him when I first saw him & told him about what happened with my last PM. PM1 put me on tramadol (Ultram & Ultracet). I kept asking him if there weren't any other meds I could take because I didn't feel too good on them. He insisted that there weren't any other ones he was comfortable prescribing under any circumstances (and since I never met any of his patients who were prescribed anything else, I believe that was true). I asked him multiple times, but with the same response. Finally, I told him I couldn't keep working with him because the hives were getting more & more severe and I was starting to have breathing probs too -- I was allergic. He was super furious with me!!! Gave me this whole lecture about how that was really serious & he would never work with me again & he was making a note in my file & on & on & on.

When I started with PM2, I explained to him that I am allergic to all narcs except fentanyl but that I didn't want to ask him for fentanyl because I knew it was really strong stuff. He asked if I had documented allergic reactions & I quietly explained to him what he would find in the way of "documentation". lol He actually sympathized with me & said that it was ridiculous that PM1 would not prescribe anything else for me & that he could understand why I would be so desperate to take a pain med that I knew I was allergic to.

There's no guarantees about anything, but I've found that a lot of times I think the worst of people but when I take a chance on them things have a way of working out. I know that's the case with my current PM, when I've thought he was trying to give me a hard time & really he was trying to help me. oh, the crazy thoughts that go through a sleep-deprived, pain-wracked mind. :)

I'll be praying that you can either work something out with your current doc or find a new one that will understand your history & that you need to find something that works better for you than the Suboxone.

peace,
frances

OnSuboxoneTherapy
Regular Member


Date Joined Aug 2008
Total Posts : 21
   Posted 8/20/2008 4:39 AM (GMT -7)   

Thank you to all that have responded. To answer PaLady, my last surgery was that of a "reconstructive surgery" to allow myself to look normal and to remove excess scar tissue"granuloma" that formed.That went well as I do look normal thus far ( still swollen though). I will take the good advice and return his call promptly today. It's just that I am totally MISERABLE and cannot sleep thus making me edgy. I watched an entire series on cable throughout the night due to the pain. God bless to all that cared to respond. I will most certainly be an active member on this board. I really need the support and kindness that each person offers. Hope everyone slept well last night.

 

 

L


PAlady
Veteran Member


Date Joined Nov 2007
Total Posts : 6795
   Posted 8/20/2008 10:05 AM (GMT -7)   
Dear L,
Please be sure to let us know how it goes. I also hope when you return the call you tell the doctor's office clearly that you didn't sleep all night, and the rest of your continuing symptoms. Sleep deprivation just makes everything else worse.

And remember, HW is open all night long, so you can always post at 3am like some of us do!

PaLady :-)

Scarred_for_life
Veteran Member


Date Joined Jul 2008
Total Posts : 1559
   Posted 8/20/2008 10:59 AM (GMT -7)   
I apologize L if my questions or my last post sounded abrupt or if it upset you in any way. I was just trying to understand your dilemma and I guess I might have come across as being a bit too brash. I would like to offer my warmest welcomes to the board and hope that you get the answers that you seek. Many here are not only dealing with their CP in their own way but are very knowledgeable in aspects that I am not familiar with. They are a friendly bunch here and keep me laughing and giggling most of the time.

Sorry I cannot post more but my pain meds have kicked in, so to speak, and I am a little "out of it" in the head LOL.

Anyway welcome and hugs


Scarred
HEALTH ISSUES: Herniated discs at S-1-L5, L5-L4, L4-L3. Two level fusion (2000); one level fusion (2002); Revision at L4-L3 (2003). Diagnosed with Failed Back Syndrome, Permanent Nerve damage and Chronic Pain

Medications:

Kadian, Lexipro, Percocet, Temazapim, Lunista, and Robaxin.


Pamela Neckpain
Veteran Member


Date Joined May 2008
Total Posts : 1821
   Posted 8/21/2008 2:04 PM (GMT -7)   
Hi Sub,
I'm in pain now. (as usual. :) It's just worse at the moment. I'm not sure I
got the jist of your post.
I've been hearing a lot about Suboxone lately. Don't know any more than what you
said. I was wondering if Methadone might help? Methadone does have pain
relieving properties.
Methadone also has it's problems which I'll speak of some time in the future.
I am so sorry for your burn ... (((((((((((((Sub))))))))))))))))
Pamela Neckpain

OnSuboxoneTherapy
Regular Member


Date Joined Aug 2008
Total Posts : 21
   Posted 8/21/2008 4:49 PM (GMT -7)   

Thanks everyone. Update here. I spoke with my doctor and he said that he would be willing to help me find a pain specialist. He said that he is sorry that I am not getting any relief from the suboxone. He said that I can have all my records and that in all the records, he stated that I never had drug seeking and it was clear to him that I have legitimate pain and that I never asked for more. So, thanks for all the great advice. I am so glad that I found this board. You guys and gals don't even know the graditute I feel. To scarred for life, hope your feeling better and to all my new friends out in cyber support land, may you all have a restful and painless evening. My new problem is severe constipation right now. 3 ducolax hasn't even caused abdominal cramping or anything at all...uugghhh. It feels like my belly is really distended too. I am going to call the doctor. I never had this problem with any other med. This at the current moment is causing me not to want to eat. Feels like I swallowed a bowling ball. I am very thin too and can't afford to lose any weight.

 

Fondly,

L


PAlady
Veteran Member


Date Joined Nov 2007
Total Posts : 6795
   Posted 8/21/2008 5:54 PM (GMT -7)   
Dear L,
I'm so glad your doc is going to refer you to a pm specialist - and we'll all be hoping you find a good one first time out! Try to do a little checking around if you have choices in your area. Then again, many of us don't have a lot of choices. Do make sure your doc doesn't just refer you to someone who is a pain specialist but is primarily or exclusively an Interventional Radiologist. They often don't prescdribe medications; just do a lot of the high tech stuff. And sometimes even the referring docs don't know this (that happned to me). So call and ask anyone you're referred to in advance if they prescdribe medications for long-term chronic pain as one of their specialties. You don't want to make an appointment, wait weeks or months, only to find out the only thing the pm doc does is injections.

Constipation - yep, we've had a couple of recent discussions on that. Prunes work for me, but I found out the hard way that eating them like candy before bedtime will result in your spending the night in the bathroom! (at least it did for me, but I ate handfuls of the prunes! LOL)

Hope to see you posting with us a lot!

PaLady

Pamela Neckpain
Veteran Member


Date Joined May 2008
Total Posts : 1821
   Posted 8/26/2008 4:35 AM (GMT -7)   
Hello Kitty,
I tried to e-mail you about the Suboxone Forum (or what)
The problem is that you haven't signed up with AIM yet so
my post could not go through.
It's 4:30 AM. I can't sleep. But I better darn well try.

PAl warm prune juice in the morning after two cups of coffee.
That should do it. If not, e-mail me.

Good luck, On. I want to find out about Suboxone myself.
Pamelahttp://www.healingwell.com/community/posticons/icon10.gif
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