Continued talk on Withdrawl's:

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Screaming Eagle
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Date Joined Sep 2009
Total Posts : 5005
   Posted 12/27/2009 2:00 PM (GMT -7)   
Hello All, I thought it was not right to barrow too much of merrygirls question & replies from the "made a mistake Posting", so I copied most of what involved me here. I appreciate all of the replies from everyone of you. Right now, I'm just confused, and have so many questions in different areas concerning my health. However, that being said, I just do not feel like dealing with it right now, and I think this is due to my feeling bad all of the time. I think may many of you will understand how I feel as you have all been through this at sometime of your life. Straydog, you have a very large knowledge base, that I would give anything to tap into....so would you please stick that internet cable in your ear, so I can download everything I can from you! :) I really need to post more of what I know, and in more detail about my Dr visits so it will save many of your questions. I just cant seem to get it done. I will try to do better this next year. We are just a few days from closing on the business, and really have to much to do, and guess what?....I don't have the mental strength to do it. I don't know how Chutzy does it, keeping up with all of the HW forum, family life, and her own health as well. If anybody wants to make more comments, please feel free to do so......it not only helps me but other members too, and that is so very important to me.

Michael




Screaming Eagle: Hello merrygirl! I don't know anything about the patch, but I also think I have small withdrawals. I just posed this question to a friend of mine here just this last week. As I'm coming off of my meds on a daily basis, I too, get to feeling awful! No shakes, but an increase in pain of course, but have that all over sick feeling. As soon as I take the meds, I'm fine again. I would also be interested in a answer from someone too!

Mrsm123: SE, why are you having those symptoms on a daily basis? That should not be happening, unless you aren't taking your meds as you are supposed to. You might be noticing that you are loosing some of the blood plasma levels of your meds. I can't recall what you are taking but no one should experience those symptoms on a daily basis unless something else isn't right.
Sandi

Screaming Sandi, I never feel as though as I'm getting enough pain med to last me the 12 hrs it is supposed to. I'm on Oxycontin, and I'm supposed to take it every 12hrs. It wears off in 8hrs, so I go 4hrs with out pain relief. Remember my body has multiple injury's, upper neck, lower back DDD, and tendinitis in both elbows. (not sure I spelled that right.) It is as though my whole body is in shock from the injuries....that is the best way I can describe it. My Dr, wants me to wean myself off of the meds as much as possible before the surgery, and I have started, by getting off of the Percocet's. I have really had no problem doing so, as I'm still on the Oxycontin. My PCD, told me to do it at my own pace. The symptoms I feel are watery eyes, pain, a sick feeling...just shy of the flu type feelings. I asked my DR...about this a few weeks ago, and he said it is due to my need for more meds, as I have built up a tolerances to the meds. I will have to say that 6 to 8 months ago I did not have this problem. All I had was an increase in pain, but the meds did not last long enough. The Percocet's were only lasting me 2hrs...and then I could feel the downhill feeling along with pain. I really think my tolerance is rapidly growing on a daily basis. This has me worried, as I feel like a drug head that needs the meds....you know, like I'm hooked on them. I was always under the impression, that if you were taking the meds for pain, that you would not feel this way. Oh.....I can hear the chewing me out a coming from other members! Right now I'm plenty scared of everything...coming off the meds and suffering the withdrawals....and also the surgery that a date has yet to be set for. I will have to make another apt. with my PCD as my wife and I want a second opinion, from a neurosurgeon. I hate to ask too much here on the HW forum, as I hate being judged by what I call badge happy, members. I'm not really pointing fingers at anyone here, but I have seen evidence of that in only my opinion. For the most part everyone here has been very supportive of my plight here. I'm probably using the wrong wording here, so sorry if I have offended anyone here. I'm just a little gun shy, right now. I did however ask one of the members that I thoroughly trust for a non judgmental opinion, so I'm not sitting back and continuing to either suffer, or make an error with out checking on it....thus the reason, why I gingerly mentioned it tonight. I have always been much better at supporting others than myself. Sorry for the mental whining, and maybe it has something with reducing my intake of pain meds. You have me more than a little curious now about my condition, and that maybe I have missed something. I have been on the Percocet's for the last 6 to 7 years now, and thought this may be normal. Do you really think there may be something wrong?Eagle:

Straydog: SE I have terrible tolerance issues not just with pain meds but all meds. We had an awful time with oral pain meds, I was either allergic to them or the side effects ate me alive. If we found something that agreed with me it was always short lived. This is why I ended up with a pump. There are others here at the forum on Oxy and many of them like you were only getting 8 hours of relief instead of 12.

The only thing that concerns me somwhat is your PCP I assume is the one rxing the Oyx to you. That dr should be the one in control of weaning you from them when it is time. A dr is better qualified at doing that rather than a patient having to pitch hit doing that. There are other meds that can be given to a person to help with any withdrawal effects. Since there is no surgery date set, it seems odd that you should have to go w/o pain relief. Don't get me wrong, I understand the drs wanting you off of the meds at surgery. But, the problem is you don't have a date set. If you had a target date then the drs could work at getting you pretty much off or down to a very low dose. I hope what I am trying to say makes sense, sometimes its harder putting it in words, lol. I just think its wrong for a person to have suffered needlessly.

Screaming Eagle: Good morning Stray! I agree with you! However the PCD did ask me to start weaning myself off the meds, and told me that he wanted me to slack off of the Percocet's first, then he will lower my dosage of the Oxycontin to the 20mg instead of the 30mg. I sincerely thank you for your concern, and like always, you are right on target with your recommendations and your concern. I think there is nobody more concerned than I am at this time....thus the question here. I tend to leave important information out of my postings, and that is an error of mine. Again Thanks!

I actually think the Dr forgot to schedule my appt with a surgeon. It is understandable, since he already scheduled several other things for me, and given the time of year, I think some of them could not get me in until after the Holiday is over with. I will keep all here updated as best I can when I find out more. Bless all of you, and really Im more concerned about all of you. Stray, how are you doing now? I know PaLady is having a terrible time with computer problems also.

Frances_2008: Michael,
I can sympathize. My PM lets me set my own schedule for cutting down as well. He's tried to set the schedule in the past, but that didn't work out so well. Every body is different. Your doc should at least set guidelines for what sorts of symptoms indicate serious issues & that mean that you should either call him, go to the hospital or take more of the narcotics (severe dehydration, too high bp, etc.). There are good non-narcotic meds for withdrawal, like Suzy mentioned. I am going very slowly cutting back on the meds right now, but in the past when I have needed to go faster (for various reasons), I have been prescribed Catapres patches (clonidine). They are wonderful. Help with watery eyes, runny nose, blood pressure, heart issues (I have an extra heartbeat, so we have to be careful) & pretty much every other symptom except for the creepy crawly feeling in my legs. Catapres is on label for high blood pressure but the generic is so cheap that even if your insurance won't cover it you can probably pay for it out of pocket. One patch lasts 7 days. Like the fentanyl patches, you have to be careful about heat with the patch on as it can cause too much of the med to be released & can cause fainting, or other crisis resulting from low bp.

straydog
Forum Moderator


Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 13470
   Posted 12/27/2009 2:42 PM (GMT -7)   
SE I think your timing has been off somewhat, trying to do too many things at one time. That seems to be something everyone of us seem to get caught up in at some point and time. It would have been nice if you could have got the business situation taken care of, then get a surgery date scheduled and then do a proper taper of meds. Instead you have had to do a lot of pitch hitting and its put you in a bad way and its a struggle to get by. In reality it could very well be Feb before you even get a surgery date and that my friend is a very long way off when you are in pain. This is why I have questions about the PCP wanting you off things so quickly, nothing has been set in concrete as far as surgery goes. Do you have a neurosurgeon onboard that is going to do your surgery? Do you have any idea what his surgery schedule is like? His office can tell you that. I know a 2nd opinion is in order, who is picking the dr you or the PCP? I just think a better plan of things would have been much better for you, you are the one having to suffer. I would somewhat be tempted to ask the PCP for a script of percocet maybe a low dose with the option of 1-2 per day, just to get a little relief. I am afraid that by the time a surgery date rolls around you are going to be in such a state with fear and worry and thats not good for someone that is fixing to undergo a major surgery to be in that shape. You need to be in good shape mentally too when having your surgery, not being all stressed out. Am I making sense here to you? Just need some better planning.
 
Also, you need to cut yourself some slack. You are only doing as you have been instructed by your dr. You cannot help that you feel rotten and in alot of pain most of the time. Most people rarely get a full 12 hrs of relief on any pain meds out there without assistance of another medication. We all have different tolerance and how we metabolize the medications. Just don't beat yourself up over this, its not worth it.
 
I really wish there was a different way to handle some of the crap we get into but thats just part of life I guess, lol. Rotten as it can be at times.
 
My time on oral meds were a total nightmare from what my family tells me. I had no clue but my daughter and sister has told me some doosies I can tell you that. I know I have about a 2 yr span that I lost alot of time and cannot remember alot of things. Getting off the orals and having a pump was something else too. It was not a piece of cake like my dr said it would. But, thats another whole different post, lol.
 
Try to just cool it the best you can and try to relax. If we can help in any here let us know. Someone always comes up with some good ideas for us.
 

crohns disease dx 2002 & small bowel resection, still looking for remission whatever that is, chronic pain 22 yrs, added ulcerative colitis 6-05 to the mix, high blood pressure 28 yrs, aortic heart valve insuffiency, depression, osteoarthritis, osteoporosis lumbar spine, scoliosis lumbar spine, peripheral neuropathy hands & feet, COPD & on oxygen therapy, lupus & psoriasis and psoratic arthritis. Several other health issues just not enough room to list it all. Too many surgeries to list and too many medications to list. Currently on 17 different daily medications. Intrathecal pain pump implanted June 05.


mrsm123
Veteran Member


Date Joined Dec 2007
Total Posts : 1228
   Posted 12/27/2009 4:41 PM (GMT -7)   

Hi SE,

I had forgotten that your  doctor told you he wanted you to start tapering down on the meds. I was on oxycontin for a long time and I can tell you that it never lasted 12 hours. Not in the beginning and certainly not at the end.  I know it is supposed to but most people that I have known on it have not had 12 hour relief and wound up being dosed every 8 hours. The biggest problem that I had with oxycontin was the unevenness of the pain relief. It was great during hours 2-4 post dose, then it went downhill from there. Sound familiar? Even after we went to 8 hour dosing, the return of the unevenness of the pain relief came back, several months later. I finally decided it was time for a change in pain meds period. That unevenness of the pain relief seems to be a common problem with oxycodone based meds after you have been on them for some time. You are still at a pretty low dose as far as oxycontin goes- 30 mg twice a day is not a huge amount . I was on far more of it.

I only asked about what may be causing your withdrawal symptoms because I completely forgot about you mentioning once before that you had to taper. I hope that I didn't upset you.?

As far as for not asking any questions you may have, I'm not sure that I understand why you wouldn't? I am a pretty by the book person , but I hope that something that I may say would not cause you to not ask a question you may have?

I think sometimes that our bodies become so adjusted to the ER levels of the pain meds in the blood plasma, that when they decide to give us "breakthrough" pain meds of the same class, that  they tend not to help as much as they are supposed to.  I know now that the fentanyl patches offer me much better pain relief in the long term, and if I have days that I have to take my breakthrough meds, they seem to work much better than they did before.  I know the strength was increased but that was a long time ago now, and I don't think it has so much to do with the strength as it does that it is a different pain med/different type of medication than the fentanyl. Does that make sense?

I know that tapering can be difficult and unpleasant, I've done it myself. Your doctor truly should be giving you a written out plan for cutting back on the meds if that is what he wants done prior to surgery.  Is this your PCP doctor or the surgeon? I have heard of having a patient cut back on meds previous to surgery but my surgeons ( both of them) told me that it was completely unnecessary to make someone do that. All they had to do was make sure that the patient's base meds were met, and then use a pca pump with fentanyl or dilaudid to manage post op pain which is entirely different than chronic pain.  In fact, he said that patients who were lowered on their meds prior to surgery unless it was a really high dose was a terrible thing to do and caused more problems for the patient and the staff post op.

Anyway, I hope that you won't not ask questions or discuss something on your mind because you are afraid of the reactions you may get. Read those that matter and ignore the rest....

Sandi

 


PLIF/TLIF Fusion w/Instrumentation L4-5 Spondololysthesis L4-5.Laminectomies L4-5, foraminal stenosis L3-4, L4-5, L5-S1, herniations L3-4, L4-5, L5-S1, central canal stenosis L3-4, L4-5 and L5-S1
POST OP CES 3/30-06
Neurogenic Bladder and Bowel, bilateral numbness legs and feet
Revision for failed Back surgery, pseudoarthrosis L4-5, hemilaminectomies L3-4, L4-5, L5-S1, bmp added to revision fusion, replaced two bent screws that were reversing out of vertebrae - August 2, 2007
On going back pain and neuropathic pain, failed back surgery, consult for scs, decided not to do that at this point.
Adhesive Arachnoiditis also......just what I didn't need..9/08- adding bilateral ulnar neuropathy with severe compression to the mix. They want me to see a surgeon for ulnar nerve surgery, but I'm not biting.
I've seen enough surgeons over the last few years.
Avascular necrosis of left wrist- maybe hips too


straydog
Forum Moderator


Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 13470
   Posted 12/27/2009 4:58 PM (GMT -7)   

Sandi thanks for posting. I think you struck on some real viable points for SE to consider. It was real interesting to read your drs approach and thoughts on tapering meds. I for one have not ever understood why they would taper a patient prior to surgery unless the patient was on some really high doses. I could see tapering the dose a little but not totally taking that person off the meds.  You are so right CP and post op pain are two totally different animals. I think it would be a lot better to taper a person after the surgery and let the person get a little post op time under their belt. But you know some drs just go around half cocked most of the time.

I hope SE will ask his questions, sometimes that is how all of us learn.


 

crohns disease dx 2002 & small bowel resection, still looking for remission whatever that is, chronic pain 22 yrs, added ulcerative colitis 6-05 to the mix, high blood pressure 28 yrs, aortic heart valve insuffiency, depression, osteoarthritis, osteoporosis lumbar spine, scoliosis lumbar spine, peripheral neuropathy hands & feet, COPD & on oxygen therapy, lupus & psoriasis and psoratic arthritis. Several other health issues just not enough room to list it all. Too many surgeries to list and too many medications to list. Currently on 17 different daily medications. Intrathecal pain pump implanted June 05.


Screaming Eagle
Forum Moderator


Date Joined Sep 2009
Total Posts : 5005
   Posted 12/27/2009 7:56 PM (GMT -7)   
Hello Stray, I'm sorry id I have left out some important wording in prior post. My Dr believes that I am on a very high dose of pain meds. He wants me to taper off, but stated that he thought I would not ba able to get clear off of them prior to the surgery. I did not ask why, as I have seen this mentioned before in my research. I'm at a total loss here, at much of everything, and tend to follow Dr, orders, and I tend to trust my Dr. He has never given me reason not to. I will make an appt on Monday and hit him up as to why it is a good idea. His office was to have a surgeon to consult with, and get me a hard date for the surgery, as I told him that I wanted it done in Feb, if possible. That has not happened, so I will have to push a little now. We do not have a shortage of surgeons that can perform the surgery, so Im a thinking I can get a hard date pretty quickly. I had seen one a few months back and he was ready to do it right away, but I wasn't. I will try to keep you all posted, as I learn more. Please be patient with me as I have a lot on my plate here, and much more than the business selling or my health.

Michael

Screaming Eagle
Forum Moderator


Date Joined Sep 2009
Total Posts : 5005
   Posted 12/27/2009 8:32 PM (GMT -7)   
Mrsm123, Im not upset at all with your questions, I think that Straydog hit the nail on the head when she said I may have too much on my plate. I really do, and I'm under a time constraint, that I do not have tome to explain here. I'm still working two jobs at the time, and that monkey has been beating the hell out of me, and right where it hurts the most. You are all right as to the tapering. As many of you may or may not know, I tend to want to please everyone, including my Dr. I have been trying to taper off sooner that he has asked of me, cause he wanted that, or at least I thought so. I have worried my self sick wondering how I was going to do it. Im still learning, from you all on several areas here. I do appreciate it truly!

Michael

straydog
Forum Moderator


Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 13470
   Posted 12/27/2009 9:29 PM (GMT -7)   
SE nothing wrong with listening to your drs, thats what we are suppose to do. However, they do not always have the right answers for us or their ducks in line as we may think. They are only human and not always right. Is your surgeon someone that comes in to the office once a month and see's patients that need his opinion? Kind of like a visiting dr? Am I reading in between the lines that you have never questioned a dr and pretty much go a long with whatever he/she says? Well, as a patient you do have a right to ask questions, its perfectly within reason and it is not considered being out of line to ask questions either. I saw too much when I worked and my faith in drs is not the best by a long shot and I do ask questions. But, then most drs take a look at me and are scared, too many things wrong with me, a list of daily meds that would choke a horse and they get nervous. Most of my reg drs that care for me say I am their challenge patient, I tell them I give them something to think about for a change and not be like a robot going from one patient to the next. lol.

Try to relax somewhere in the middle of this mess.
 

crohns disease dx 2002 & small bowel resection, still looking for remission whatever that is, chronic pain 22 yrs, added ulcerative colitis 6-05 to the mix, high blood pressure 28 yrs, aortic heart valve insuffiency, depression, osteoarthritis, osteoporosis lumbar spine, scoliosis lumbar spine, peripheral neuropathy hands & feet, COPD & on oxygen therapy, lupus & psoriasis and psoratic arthritis. Several other health issues just not enough room to list it all. Too many surgeries to list and too many medications to list. Currently on 17 different daily medications. Intrathecal pain pump implanted June 05.


Screaming Eagle
Forum Moderator


Date Joined Sep 2009
Total Posts : 5005
   Posted 12/27/2009 10:23 PM (GMT -7)   
I will do that Stray. Thanks for taking the time to respond each and every time here. I know that most all of you regulars have a lot of knowledge here, and one would be wise to listen up, including me. I hope you are doing well, and I sure hope PaLady gets her computer problems taken care of, as we need her here too. I think and hope Chutzy is getting the much needed break she was talking about right before Christmas day. Lets hope the new year is easier on us old people too. :) I will probably tap you on the shoulder again before long, so hang around, will ya! :)

Michael
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