does tainted milk cause crohn's disease?

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CrazyHarry
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Date Joined Mar 2006
Total Posts : 1034
   Posted 1/2/2008 10:14 PM (GMT -7)   
thought you all may find this interesting. it is on MAP and the milk "connection" to crohns.

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2008/1/1/does-tainted-milk-cause-crohn-s-disease.aspx
Crazy Harry

---------------------------------------------
Crohn's since 1993 (17 yrs old then)
surgery in July '05 - removal of 2 inches at ileum and 8 inches of sigmoid colon (had fistula into bladder)
Nov '05 developed colonic inertia; July '06 told i needed ostomy surgery
began maker's diet in August '06 - now feeling the best ever with no symptoms of colonic inertia and i kept my colon
med free as of 10/31/07


teddybearweiser
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Date Joined Oct 2004
Total Posts : 3042
   Posted 1/3/2008 3:57 AM (GMT -7)   
Hi Harry, Milk does not cause crohn's. If it did everyone in the world would have CD.

tbw
Hi, I am teddybearweiser, I am a male.
I was diagnosed with crohns disease when i was admitted to the hospital
in 1992, in Jan of 1993 I was back in the hospital for surgery for my crohns. I had part of my right colon resectioned with ilecolonstomy.
 My GI doctor has me on Asacol, Dicyclomine,Imuran,Celebrex and Remicade. B-12 injection once a month.
My Internest doctor has me on Lisnopril-HTCZ and Folic Acid. Diagnosed
with Osteoarthritis July 2007
 


hspenser
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Date Joined Dec 2005
Total Posts : 544
   Posted 1/3/2008 6:27 AM (GMT -7)   
teddybearweiser said...
Hi Harry, Milk does not cause crohn's. If it did everyone in the world would have CD.

tbw

teddy....Maybe a little more openmindedness....based on your response then would I assume that everyone who smokes gets cancer?  Why are some people DEADLY allergic to seafood, or bee stings and others are not?  Why does Humira work for some and not for others?
 
I have read a little bit about the milk connection before and now again with this article that is making the internet rounds....it seems plausible for some.  I would guess that the cause of crohns is not the same for everyone....that several things lead to it....why did it never show up in system until I was in my early 40's....something must have triggered it.
dx IBS 1999   UC 2000   CD 2001
Tested BIOGEN TYSABRI (gave me 2 years of remission)
currently on Low Dose Netroxene (started Jan. 19, 2007)...against Dr's wishes, he was pushing for Remicade.  Stopped the Naltrexone July 28th...started Humira Aug 31st, 2007...current dose two shots every other week.
Crohns is currently active and has been since April of 2005
51 yrs old


EMom
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Date Joined Aug 2007
Total Posts : 990
   Posted 1/3/2008 6:39 AM (GMT -7)   
Thanks for posting that link, CH. It was fascinating! I could've listened to that guy even longer. His stats on bacteria found in grass vs. grain fed cows were really impressive.

Here's another link someone recently passed my way that talks about a possible MAP/E. coli/mannan (a yeast sugar from cow's milk) collaborative effort to cause CD. For some reason this page takes a bit longer to load--at least on my computer. Don't give up on it!

http://community.livejournal.com/candidiasis/68611.html
EMom

Grateful for everyone's help here!

Mother to 15 year old boy diagnosed in June, 2007.
Currently taking Asacol, omega 3s, digestive enzymes, probiotics, iron, vit. C, calcium and a good multivitamin.

Started The Maker's Diet in early September.


LiLa
Regular Member


Date Joined Nov 2007
Total Posts : 106
   Posted 1/3/2008 6:41 AM (GMT -7)   
Hiya,

Well i have always believed that there is a connection between Crohns and drinking milk. I can still remember as a child that when i reached the age of about 6 or 7, everytime i drank milk, i ended up doubled up in pain about 5 or 10 minutes later. It would not last long but i can still remember it vividly as i was very young and the pain was extreme. And it never stopped happening so i had to stop drinking milk altogether as the pain came back every single time. Then low and behold 6/7 yrs later i developed Crohns.
Maybe i am completely off the mark but personally i am convinced it's related to milk. Maybe some people are just more susceptible to the bad bacteria that may not have been killed off than others are.
Anyway that's just my little opinion.
And i am wondering has anybody else had a similar experience from drinking milk (before ever developing Crohns symptoms)?

MikeB
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Date Joined Mar 2006
Total Posts : 1169
   Posted 1/3/2008 6:46 AM (GMT -7)   
Teddy is right. Crohn's is almost certainly much more complicated than simply being triggered by milk. As for experiencing problems with milk aftre a certain childhood age, we are genetically programmed to be able to digest milk products easily from infancy to weaning age, for obvious reasons. After that many people become lactose intolerant, since they no longer need milk as a staple food (they now have teeth and can begin eating more complex foods.) Until some real hard evidence comes along, the concept of Crohn's as a runaway autoimmune reaction, with probable genetic tendencies, to a whole host of stimuli which can include bacteria and other irritants, makes more sense than all the other more simplistic proposals. I understand the need for some to believe in a "single bullet" theory, but the immune system is an extremely complex and multi-faceted thing, and it's mucyh more likely that Crohn's (and arthritis and lupus and other autoimmune diseases) are too.

hspenser
Veteran Member


Date Joined Dec 2005
Total Posts : 544
   Posted 1/3/2008 6:47 AM (GMT -7)   
Lila...I prove to be the opposite....I drank milk like crazy as a kid...almost always Skim....Then later in my early 30's I found myself drinking less and less...just lost my desire for it.  Now I drink very little milk, maybe a glass or two per week....but when I do drink it it tastes great but leaves me a bit unsettled.  Who knows...we are all so different

dx IBS 1999   UC 2000   CD 2001
Tested BIOGEN TYSABRI (gave me 2 years of remission)
currently on Low Dose Netroxene (started Jan. 19, 2007)...against Dr's wishes, he was pushing for Remicade.  Stopped the Naltrexone July 28th...started Humira Aug 31st, 2007...current dose two shots every other week.
Crohns is currently active and has been since April of 2005
51 yrs old


EMom
Veteran Member


Date Joined Aug 2007
Total Posts : 990
   Posted 1/3/2008 7:02 AM (GMT -7)   
MikeB said...
Teddy is right. Crohn's is almost certainly much more complicated than simply being triggered by milk. As for experiencing problems with milk aftre a certain childhood age, we are genetically programmed to be able to digest milk products easily from infancy to weaning age, for obvious reasons.



We are programmed for human milk, not cow's.
EMom

Grateful for everyone's help here!

Mother to 15 year old boy diagnosed in June, 2007.
Currently taking Asacol, omega 3s, digestive enzymes, probiotics, iron, vit. C, calcium and a good multivitamin.

Started The Maker's Diet in early September.


MikeB
Veteran Member


Date Joined Mar 2006
Total Posts : 1169
   Posted 1/3/2008 7:13 AM (GMT -7)   
Lactose is lactose.

Nanners
Elite Member


Date Joined Apr 2005
Total Posts : 14995
   Posted 1/3/2008 7:45 AM (GMT -7)   
I am with MikeB on this. There are so many different things that could be the trigger. I have heard about milk, tobacco, bacteria, allergies etc. as being possible triggers. I was breast fed as a baby, I drank alot of milk ALL the time until I was in my 30's, I had allergies as a child, have had many bacterial infections and smoked 29 years. Any of these things could have been a trigger. My personal opinion is that we all (Crohnies) have this faulty gene and something (no one knows what the something is) triggers our Crohns to become active. I even spoke with my GI about this and he said thats why they can't find a cure, because so many different things act as triggers differently in everyone. Hence, some of us can eat certain things and others can't. Crohns is a very individual thing and I think our triggers are just as individual. JMHO!
Been living with Crohn's Disease for 32 years.  Currently on Asacol, Prilosec 60 mg, Estrace, Prinivil, Diltiazem, Percoset prn for pain and Calcium.  Resections in 2002 and 2005.  Recently diagnosed with Fibromyalgia and doing tests to see if I have Inflammatory Arthritis or AS.


Mormor Vicky
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Date Joined Mar 2007
Total Posts : 684
   Posted 1/3/2008 7:54 AM (GMT -7)   
I have to agree with Nanners. I come from a large family of 6 kids. We all drank milk everyday. I'm the only one to developed Crohn's. So even if milk was a trigger, maybe I came in contact with another trigger that set it off. I know I'm predisposed to CD because my daughter also has it so there is a genetic link. So it's possible that milk can be a trigger but a combo of something else caused it to be activated.
Vicky / 48 years old
DX'd with Crohn's during a resection August 2006
DX'd with Steriod induced Diabetes November 2006
Considered in Clinical remission but have minor signs of disease activity
 
Daughter (27) also has Crohn's since she was 12.
 
Currently on 4000mg of Pentasa only for Crohn's
No longer able to take 6-MP because of Bone-Marrow Suppression
Cymbalta, Metformin, Lipitor


lillise
Regular Member


Date Joined Jan 2007
Total Posts : 90
   Posted 1/3/2008 9:13 AM (GMT -7)   
Hi, everyone. Was interesting to read all the posts.  Thought i'd add my experience
Always drank loads of milk as a kid with no problems. 
When i moved out of home i continued to drink loads of milk but was far from shops with no transport so i used to buy loads and freeze it then defrost a pint at a time. I developed crohns after 6 month of moving out....i have since learnt that freezing milk isn't advised as it does something to the bacteria but didn't know that back then! I'm not saying that that was the cause of my disease, not at all, but i always wondered whether it may have aggravated things in my gut.
Like people say, different things can cause reactions in different people.
..don;t freeze your milk tho just in case!! he he!
Lise :o)
Diagnosed with Crohn's start of 2002. Had 5 months of remission since diagnosis.  Tried lots of different meds, started on infliximab (remicade) Feb 07 had to jump thro hoops here in England to get it . So far so good...hooray!! The light at the end of the tunnel is on and i'm going for it!!
Diagnosed with AS feb 2007 but suffered for years


bunnypucker
Regular Member


Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 494
   Posted 1/3/2008 3:09 PM (GMT -7)   
i think there is more to it than just milk. its a genetic thing that goes haywire form some sort of trigger like others have said. im proof because i have an identical twin and i have CD, she does not. its weird but i think it really does prove the trigger theory.

bunny
Crohn's Disease Diagnosed 12/24/03
Bipolar






Im 26 years old, and am currently only taking remicade and protonix for my CD. am on quite the cocktail for my BP however: Geodon, Lamictal, Celexa, Buspar, Wellbutrin and Klonopin.

Im also on lipitor for high cholesterol caused by a prior BP med. im on fentanyl patches for pain also, and i take some meds prn for my allergies, asthma, and migrianes.



"We are all worms but I do believe i am a Gloworm"

^always makes me smile^

<FONT color=#00ffff>




<FONT color=orange>


Skjura
Regular Member


Date Joined Jun 2007
Total Posts : 210
   Posted 1/3/2008 4:18 PM (GMT -7)   
I think they now have identified many of the genes, immunefactors, and bacteria that combine to cause the disease.
The colon and the small intestines are "colonized" by bacteria, viruses, and fungus. Many are harmless, but a bacterium can change and become virulent. Common bugs can turn aggressive, manages to attach itself and invade the cells lining the small intestine
where it can trigger Crohn's disease in genetically susceptible people.

When you're healthy a bacteria invade the intestinal cells, the immune system typically kicks in
and try to get rid of them.
Are you genetically predisposed your immune system may get its signals crossed and overreact, leading to uncontrolled inflammation, or fail to kill the invader, leading to an ongoing infection.

1.Our immune system may lead to a decrease in a persons ability to kill bacterias.
2. Our immune system may lead to an overactive T-cell response to bacteria or bacterial antigens
3. The immune dysfunction may manifest itself as an inability to tolerate the presence of commonly
tolerated bacteria; or
4. this dysfunction may manifest itself as changes in the intestinal cells that make it easier
for bacteria to attach to them.

So the MAP bacteria in the milk could as well be a possible theory. They have found MAP bacteria from cows milk in 75 % of people with Crohn's, they have found it in 26 % in other people. May be nr. 3 could be an explanation due to MAP? I don't mean it has to be MAP, the most common E.Coli could turn aggressive and be heavy to handle for genetic predisposed people. As we see Crohns may have different causes. Some may be genetic predisposed, some may only have a weak immune system with lower endorphine productions and so on.........Another triggers could be the casein protein in milk, it could be the gluten in wheat, it could be processed food disturbing cells with nitrites and MSGs that the body's cells won't recognize and therefore the body's cells can't fully digest them.

The most recent gene discovered is ATG16L1. This gene codes for a protein involved in a process known as autophagy.

"The word "autophagy" literally means "eating oneself." In biology, it can be understood as
the digestion within a cell of materials produced by that cell or from a bacterium engulfed by the cell. In people who have an abnormal variant of ATG16L1, the immune cells responsible for killing bacteria may not be up to the job, and bacteria may resist being destroyed. The discovery of ATG16L1 fits almost uncannily with recent insights into what goes awry in at least some
types of Crohn's disease.

A defect in ATG16L1 may lead to problems with autophagy, while a defect in NOD2—the first Crohn's susceptibility gene to be discovered, in 2001—may impair the ability to kill bacteria through another route: by causing a deficit in the secretionof defensins, proteins that specialize in bacterial killing. These two genetic defects correlate with two different routes into the development of Crohn's disease, and with the new molecular insights described above".

I think there are many factors that leads to both Crohns and U.C. Now the science have drawn the big lines, they have found some genetical causes and they are looking for more than one cause, they have also found a lot of interesting details, and they will be able to target new medications that suits the different factors that they have found plausible for these diseases.

Skj.


 
Diagnosed CD June 2007. Have only used prednisone. Did make a difference while max dosed. Got my problems back when tapering.
 
Using Low Dose Naltrexone from sept. 2007. LDN is super! I am now in remission ;-)

Post Edited (Skjura) : 1/3/2008 4:21:30 PM (GMT-7)


CrazyHarry
Veteran Member


Date Joined Mar 2006
Total Posts : 1034
   Posted 1/3/2008 5:59 PM (GMT -7)   
i'd like to take this time to throw a big question mark into every one's "gene" hypothesis - i have an identical twin brother and he does NOT have crohn's disease. go figure.....(to nip this in the bud, this is uncommon but not unheard of). it is unfortunate that i have never been able to find a doctor wanting to investigate this.

however i truly believe that one must have a genetic predisposition to the disease at some level to develop it (and any disease for that matter, besides alcoholism - that is an addiction, like drugs, no matter how to sugar coat it cos that was free will that took you down that path). crohn's has been found on several genes which imho proves as to the variability of it in regards to everyones unique and different experience - some need powerful meds and are in/out of the hospital constantly while others need just a b-12 shot and to go on a short burst of meds from time to time. i strongly believe in the diet connection to all of this and i think i am living proof that by eating a "clean", natural diet one can, over time, keep most if not all symptoms at bay. i also agree that there needs to be some kind of trigger. be that MAP, stress, or some kind of imbalance in the intestinal flora or something else entirely. i dont know and who knows if we ever will. but it can make for an interesting discussion.

i drank probably as much milk as i did soda growing up (and i drank A LOT of soda - to the point i now look back and i am surprised i never developed type 2 diabetes). however i never had any problems until shortly after i was diagnosed. i figured out on my own after a year that i was lactose intolerant. when i brought it up to my GI he said yes, about 99% percent of people with crohn's become lactose intolerant. i knew from then on i was going to have to figure out this disease completely on my own. so far so good...
Crazy Harry

---------------------------------------------
Crohn's since 1993 (17 yrs old then)
surgery in July '05 - removal of 2 inches at ileum and 8 inches of sigmoid colon (had fistula into bladder)
Nov '05 developed colonic inertia; July '06 told i needed ostomy surgery
began maker's diet in August '06 - now feeling the best ever with no symptoms of colonic inertia and i kept my colon
med free as of 10/31/07


stkitt
Forum Moderator


Date Joined Apr 2007
Total Posts : 32602
   Posted 1/3/2008 6:00 PM (GMT -7)   

IMHO, I think each person is different and because you had problems with milk and you now have Crohn's doesn't mean milk is a factor.  As many said, lots of people continue to tolerate dairy products without issues.

Crohn's affects each person differently. Just my 2 cents worth.

Kitt


 
Co-Moderator Anxiety ~ Panic Disorders
Co-Moderator Crohn's Disease Forum
*~* Not a mental health professional at all *~*
Dx: Anxiety/Panic, Depression, GERD, Osteoarthritis
*Wife of a Crohnie*
******www.healingwell.com/donate***
It is health that is real wealth and not pieces of gold and silver.~Mahatma Gandhi~
 


FallColors
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Date Joined May 2007
Total Posts : 1220
   Posted 1/3/2008 7:54 PM (GMT -7)   
I looked into the MAP theories too. Its interesting to see that Nova Scotia is a real hotspot for CD and MAP -- my family is from there and I have visited it several times starting when I was young. And I always drunk milk -- even today. Seems like genetic and MAP links to me.

I think stress may very well have contributed to my CD being triggered. Three years ago I had a very, very, very emotionally and physically stressful year. I developed shingles at the end of that year, which was probably stress triggered. A year later, I develop an abcess and peri-rectal fistula -- CD! I have never, ever had any other CD symptoms (and really feel for what you all have been through!!) -- and still don't have any. My colonoscopy and small bowel follow-through showed nothing except the spot in the rectum with the peri-rectal fistula, and the small shallow uleration has now healed completely. Its still hard to believe I have CD.

So I would love to find out that this was a one-time incident!!! And if I avoid stress the CD will be dormant from now on!! A girl has gotta dream!!!

stkitt
Forum Moderator


Date Joined Apr 2007
Total Posts : 32602
   Posted 1/3/2008 8:45 PM (GMT -7)   

That is a great dream........I hope it comes true for you Fallcolors.

Bless you and lots of hugs.

Kitt


 
Co-Moderator Anxiety ~ Panic Disorders
Co-Moderator Crohn's Disease Forum
*~* Not a mental health professional at all *~*
Dx: Anxiety/Panic, Depression, GERD, Osteoarthritis
*Wife of a Crohnie*
******www.healingwell.com/donate***
It is health that is real wealth and not pieces of gold and silver.~Mahatma Gandhi~
 


njmom
Veteran Member


Date Joined Apr 2006
Total Posts : 1884
   Posted 1/4/2008 10:18 AM (GMT -7)   
The medical community is divided on what causes Crohn's and certainly divided on the role of the MAP bacteria (in milk) in Crohn's.
 
So it is premature to take a hard stand, saying MAP is definitely not involved in Crohn's. 
 
MikeB and Nanners made great points: if you take the logic expressed in their positions, that Crohn's can be caused by many different things and that the triggers are different for different people, then it certainly makes sense to investigate every potential trigger. MAP bacteria in milk is certainly one potential trigger.
 
The dairy industry assured us that MAP bacteria could not survive pasteurization, but this has been proven to be wrong in the past two years.

Illini
Regular Member


Date Joined Dec 2007
Total Posts : 298
   Posted 1/4/2008 2:11 PM (GMT -7)   
Although I am the first person in my family diagnosed with Crohn's, pretty much everyone is lactose intolerant, and my grandparents are also unable to eat citrus foods--I know both of those can be bad for people with Crohn's. My grandmother also had colon cancer about 10 years ago. As a child I was diagnosed as "fat intolerant" although in reality it was lactose intolerance. Any dairy foods or hot dogs (also high in lactose) would give me D. Also certain fruits and fruit juices would give me D or a rash.  Between stress and food intolerances, I spent a lot of days in the nurse's office during 5th grade, and my mom sent two Tums in my lunch every day during 6th grade.
 
From what I've read, there is a genetic component, and also an environmental component. I think that my family is "almost-crohn's" and an environmental trigger pushed me over the edge. It is caused by multiple genetic factors, so different people may respond to different environmental triggers as well (MAP, E. coli, etc.). There is good evidence of an association between MAP and crohn's, not only that, antibodies against bacteria are how they diagnose it via serology 7.
 
If MAP in milk can cause flares, then pasteurizing would not matter. Your immune system will respond regardless of whether the the bacteria is alive or dead.
 
The medical community is still divided on the cause of crohn's, and how to treat it. There are some recent articles that say the basis of crohn's is actually an immune deficiency. Your body is unable to mount an appropriate "first defense" against gut bacteria via neutrophils (one type of white blood cell), and that leads to an out-of-control inflammation mediated by macrophages (a different kind of white blood cell). I think this is interesting and I hope the researchers continue. If it's true, this would lead to a paradigm shift in the development of new treatments.
 
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