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randynoguts
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 6050
   Posted 11/3/2008 2:25 AM (GMT -7)   
seems my other post ruffled some feathers in our comunity.. sorry..  i know we can sometime get riled up about political discussions, not intended at all. more to bring up and discuss politely, something i see as a health problem we all should be concerned about in all our respective countries. 
                  if these policies were to spread and become common place the next logical step would be to ban sick people from healthcare altogether. would save a ton of money. would there be limits on what would be covered? an age when you could no longer see a dr? 
 
    how long has this policy been active? has this happened alot before  , but was kept quiet? should we start it in our own countries to stem immigration of the sick and obese?  
 
   if we as americans put everyone on the system will we be waiting a year for CT scans like in other countries?  will the best and brightest drs see only private patients so they can make enough money to pay back there school loans?  obviously we cannot influence the outcome of tuesdays elections here in the US, but if we keep a good watch on things , maybe they wont creep up on us slowly and then be too late. if we keep our eyes open in all our lands, we may be able to avert some sinister things coming down the road..
 
   remember it was only 40 years ago that people were still being lobotomized to save money. and only 63 years ago that people were killed because they were not a certain way. the people who were there are almost all gone and history has a way to repeat itself over and over... be vigilant guys.
randynoguts 



     http://www.geocities.com/randynogutsweb/


gachrons
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Date Joined Mar 2007
Total Posts : 4527
   Posted 11/3/2008 3:01 AM (GMT -7)   
Randy got your back here.You are right about people not being able to immigrate to other countries because of health issues .I see your comment as you do as a taking away of freedom of rights. If they do something like that with one issue and get away with it .It would probably lead to other issues. I agree that contagious disease is another thing .lol gail
Hallarious woman over 50 ,CD ,IBS 27 years--resection,fistula's,obstructions,hemmies,and still alive.lol gail


Sniper
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Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 6518
   Posted 11/3/2008 9:12 AM (GMT -7)   
Lets not forget the lepers. Just one generation ago in the state where I live people with leprosy were taken away from there families and put in colonies. The families were then told it would be best if they considered them dead and not visit . Fortunately there is now a cure for leprosy and these colonies no longer exist except for a few people that have known no other life and still live in one facility here. The point is , any illness, birth defect or misunderstood difference could put someone at risk for this treatment. Genocide is a result of mistrust and misuse of power. We should all be aware and speak out against different laws or treatment for different people for whatever reason.
If we would read the secret history of our enemies,we would find in each mans life sorrow and suffering enough to disarm all hostility.


pb4
Elite Member


Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 20576
   Posted 11/3/2008 11:23 AM (GMT -7)   
I hear ya Randy....all the way from Canada, where our healthcare system is tanking, the need for more doctors and nurses because of just too many people, and the care is nothing like it was even 10 yrs ago....more than likely these issues are common throughout the world, with very few places that have it together and under control.

:)
My bum is broken....there's a big crack down the middle of it! LOL :)


EMom
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Date Joined Aug 2007
Total Posts : 990
   Posted 11/3/2008 11:45 AM (GMT -7)   
Well, and along the same lines, there are some "progressive" countries which I will not name, that allow euthanasia. The elderly are the most common victims, but there are documented cases of babies being euthanized because of some "birth defect". Laws moving in favor of this have crept into a state or two here in the US, as well. To me, it all falls under a larger category of "you're too expensive to keep around". Sad commentary on humans, in general... cry

Randy, you are right. We need to be vigilant!
Mom to 16 year old son diagnosed in June, 2007.
Omega 3s, digestive enzymes, probiotics, vit. C, calcium w/D3, a good multivitamin and SCD legal yogurt
Started The Maker's Diet in Sept. '07. Gradually learning/using more Specific Carbohydrate Diet (SCD) recipes, too! (cooking challenged)


FitzyK23
Veteran Member


Date Joined May 2005
Total Posts : 4219
   Posted 11/3/2008 1:00 PM (GMT -7)   
Interesting EMOM - I always thought of euthanasia as a humanity issue, someone is suffering so much and in so much pain that they can choose to die if that is their wish. I never thought of other people imposing euthanasia on people that are a burden to have around.
27 Year old married female law student (last year!!). Diagnosed w/ CD 4 years ago, IBS for over 10 years before that, which was probably the CD. I am sort of lactose intollerant too but can handle anything cultured and do well w/ lactose pills and lactaid. For crohns I am currently on Pentasa 4 pills/4x day and hysociamine prn. I also have bad acid reflux and have been on PPI's since age 13. I have been through prilosec, prevacid, and nexium. Currently I am on Protonix in the morning and Zantac at night. I also take a birth control pill to allow some fun in my life.


Margie11
Regular Member


Date Joined Aug 2008
Total Posts : 467
   Posted 11/3/2008 1:14 PM (GMT -7)   

OK Randy & Sniper,

 You got me. Along the same lines in my home state we are giving mildly ADHD kids meds to put them into a stim, when we should be looking for a way to challenge their minds, and refusing to pay for treatment for ASD to help autistic children awaken from their stim. Oh, Yea! Also in my home state(the one I always brag about) until a few years ago, you could never legally rape your spouse, and children were being taken from their families and put into foster care for "failure to thrive". Anybody here know any Crohn's, UC or Celiac kids who fail to thrive? Sorry for flaming, but not exactly off topic here.

                                                                                   shakehead


              Never go faster than your guardian angel can fly!                  
     Be Patient And Tough, Someday This Pain Will Be Useful To You 
 
 Crohn's for life, symptoms included terrible joint and soft tissue pain, just met first cousin who suffers from Reactive Arthritis-explains sooo much. Great control on SCD (when I'm good) and I get by with a lotta help from my friends!
                                                Margie11

Post Edited (Margie11) : 11/3/2008 1:35:03 PM (GMT-7)


MikeB
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Date Joined Mar 2006
Total Posts : 1169
   Posted 11/3/2008 1:38 PM (GMT -7)   
The bottom line is that the best health care system is the one where a patient is free to choose treatment sources and alternatives and communicate freely with his or her physician and other medical providers to secure the treatment that is right for each individual person. The more "managed care" intrudes, the fewer the choices and the more the restrictions. Is that a perfect health care system? There is no such thing . . . every change has unintended consequences. For example, that year-long wait for a CT scan is part of the price some nations pay for so-called universal health care (along with the dramatically higher taxes that go with it) to assure some basic level of care for everyone. The diagnostic group system of assigning insurance payments to specific conditions saves money sometimes, but it also pigeonholes everyone with a disease into a more rigid and less flexible treatment path, or leaves them stuck with more of the out of pocket expenses. Funny how that old fee for service arrangement with your primary care doc or chosen specialists worked pretty well for a long time, huh? The warning is, don't tinker too much with something that already delivers good care to most people most of the time, or you may regret the ultimate outcomes.

Rider Fan
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Date Joined May 2008
Total Posts : 1445
   Posted 11/3/2008 2:09 PM (GMT -7)   
In what country with universal health care do you have to wait a year for a CT scan? I'm curious. I'm sure glad that doesn't happen in Canada, I feel so lucky to live here.
Dx'ed in 1999. No surgeries.

Current meds: 25mg Methotrexate. Udo's Choice Probiotics (30 billion).


Betaine, digestive enzymes, Candicin (oil of oregano capsules), Beta Sitosterol.

Tried SCD, didn't work, now avoiding gluten and dairy.


HabsHockeyFan
Veteran Member


Date Joined Jan 2006
Total Posts : 3130
   Posted 11/3/2008 2:25 PM (GMT -7)   

randy since I work in the medical insurance field, I try to stay away from these conversations.  I know I can get volatile when discussing "national health" plans and I did avoid your last post for that reason.  I am a fan of choice, but put a control on providers billing allowances.  No politician in our country is putting forth a plan that I envision as workable.

I just would like to agree that everyone should stay vigilant and find out what every politician or plan is in depth.  The news coverage tends to simplify or bend perceptions on who is in favor of or proposing what.  Do not vote just based on one news story...read everything that is out there and listen to those on here from different countries about their health plans.  Be educated!


Dx'd '90 (emergency rupture), symptoms ignored long before that, '03 fistulas and bad flagyl reactions, B12 weekly, Pentasa [until I surrender to the bigger meds]
I'm riding on the escalator of life....


pb4
Elite Member


Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 20576
   Posted 11/3/2008 2:26 PM (GMT -7)   
Rider Fan,

It may depend on where in Canada you live...I don't know about a CT scan taking a yr wait in Alberta but I know surgeries, getting in to see a new GI and many other things along those lines have a much longer waiting list than ever before, even longer than a yr for surgeries depending on what it's for and such, Alberta is definitely one for long wait lists for key things.

:)
My bum is broken....there's a big crack down the middle of it! LOL :)


pb4
Elite Member


Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 20576
   Posted 11/3/2008 2:29 PM (GMT -7)   
FitzyK23 said...
Interesting EMOM - I always thought of euthanasia as a humanity issue, someone is suffering so much and in so much pain that they can choose to die if that is their wish. I never thought of other people imposing euthanasia on people that are a burden to have around.

I totally agree with you FitzyK, but I'm sure that's a whole other can of worms.  Watching my sister in law suffering with cancer riddling most of her body (brain, lungs and bones) was not a pretty sight and when you know a person will NOT recover from that, letting them suffer for months before they finally die is about the most inhumane thing I've ever witnessed.
 
 
 
:)
My bum is broken....there's a big crack down the middle of it! LOL :)


ivy6
Elite Member


Date Joined Sep 2005
Total Posts : 10404
   Posted 11/3/2008 2:52 PM (GMT -7)   
Randy, I do not understand why you are so convinced that your health care situation is ideal in the United States.

Every day I read this forum I thank my lucky stars that I was born in Australia, and not the US. There have been occasional glitches in my health care, but I have NEVER had to wait extended periods for anything. We have a triage system on our waiting lists: the sick or acute cases can be dealt with very quickly. We NEVER have a situation where a person is denied, for instance, a bone marrow transplant, simply because an insurance company would prefer not to pay for it. These treatments are covered by taxes: if doctors agree that the treatment is necessary and the patient meets the necessary criteria, then all attempts will be made to provide the treatment for that patient, free of charge.

I feel sad about the case of the Down's syndrome boy being denied permanent residency, but I can understand it. With climate change and the global economic downturn, Australia is starting to have to make some very hard choices about its future, and this family may be one of the casualties of those choices.

Ivy.
Co-Moderator Crohn's Forum.


Rider Fan
Veteran Member


Date Joined May 2008
Total Posts : 1445
   Posted 11/3/2008 2:59 PM (GMT -7)   
I hear you PB4 but I'd rather wait a few months than live somewhere that I can't get into see a doctor at all because I can't afford it or I will go bankrupt if I do. I've heard people on here turn down medical tests because they can't afford the $500 co-pay.

When it comes to euthanasia I just think back to that whole Terry Schiavo debacle where those self righteous politicians (from a certain party) climbed all overthemselves to deny that poor woman her right to pass away with dignity. Disgraceful, IMHO.
Dx'ed in 1999. No surgeries.

Current meds: 25mg Methotrexate. Udo's Choice Probiotics (30 billion).


Betaine, digestive enzymes, Candicin (oil of oregano capsules), Beta Sitosterol.

Tried SCD, didn't work, now avoiding gluten and dairy.


Margie11
Regular Member


Date Joined Aug 2008
Total Posts : 467
   Posted 11/3/2008 3:02 PM (GMT -7)   
I'm kinda glad I didn't have access to euthanasia in 02 before they DX'd me
              Never go faster than your guardian angel can fly!                  
     Be Patient And Tough, Someday This Pain Will Be Useful To You 
 
 Crohn's for life, symptoms included terrible joint and soft tissue pain, just met first cousin who suffers from Reactive Arthritis-explains sooo much. Great control on SCD (when I'm good) and I get by with a lotta help from my friends!
                                                Margie11


ivy6
Elite Member


Date Joined Sep 2005
Total Posts : 10404
   Posted 11/3/2008 3:04 PM (GMT -7)   
ps. And fyi, Randy, in Australia the best and brightest doctors generally work in the *public* system, because that's where the best facilities are.
Co-Moderator Crohn's Forum.


pb4
Elite Member


Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 20576
   Posted 11/3/2008 3:33 PM (GMT -7)   
Rider Fan,

My biggest concern is that is the direction we are heading, especially with all the privatized health care creeping into our system...we still have it okay now but lord only knows what the future holds when it comes to our already falling apart health care system.

:)
My bum is broken....there's a big crack down the middle of it! LOL :)


pb4
Elite Member


Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 20576
   Posted 11/3/2008 3:35 PM (GMT -7)   
Margie, I think it's a little different when one has cancer and has no chance of surviving it what so ever, and that unfortunately happens more often then most realize...it's shameful that in certain cases like with my SIL that she had to suffere needlessly only to die anyway, it's cruel and as far as I'm concerned it's down right torture.

:)
My bum is broken....there's a big crack down the middle of it! LOL :)


ivy6
Elite Member


Date Joined Sep 2005
Total Posts : 10404
   Posted 11/3/2008 3:49 PM (GMT -7)   
... Anyway (excuse short comments; I'm dashing them off between chores) I think the Australian decision was more likely to have been based on the fact that the young boy is most likely to grow up and become a lifelong disabled pensioner, than on any pressure he might place on the health care system.

Western societies are facing a situation where the Baby Boomers are ageing and are likely to put an enormous strain on the health care system. I'm sure this is being discussed in the US, but it is of huge concern in countries like Australia, where health care tends to be funded by tax-payers. In other words, we have a lot (a *lot*) of aged pensioners, many of whom live on government pensions and then use government-funded health care. On top of that, we have 700,000 disabled pensioners, even though the population of this country is little more than 20 million. There is great concern about how all this care is to be funded, given that the proportion of people working and paying taxes to fund that care is already relatively small and is likely to diminish.

I have heard a lot of chatter in the media about how this can / should be addressed. For instance:
* should taxpayers be expected to pay for smokers' health care? After all, smokers have persisted in their habit despite being told, for decades, about the damage they are doing to their health
* should smokers be denied surgery, given that it can be more dangerous for them?
* what about obese people who have made no attempt to exercise or lose weight? Should taxpayers fund their health care?
* should people who live on welfare be permitted to vote? (yes, really, I have heard this idea being given serious consideration in the public sphere)
* should people on welfare be forced into paid work?
* how much is it reasonable to expect people to pay towards their health care?
* when is euthenasia ethical?
* is it right to keep the terminally ill or aged on life support?
* etc

I think that the decision to deny a disabled person permanent residency can be seen in the context of this long-running debate. As I said before, there are also extra pressures being placed on society by global warming etc, which would be too lengthy to write about here. Sadly, I think a lot of it boils down to $...

Ivy.
Co-Moderator Crohn's Forum.


gachrons
Veteran Member


Date Joined Mar 2007
Total Posts : 4527
   Posted 11/3/2008 3:53 PM (GMT -7)   
It took me one week to get booked for a CT scan so not all Canada has to wait a year. lol gail
Hallarious woman over 50 ,CD ,IBS 27 years--resection,fistula's,obstructions,hemmies,and still alive.lol gail


tsitodawg
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Date Joined Sep 2006
Total Posts : 845
   Posted 11/3/2008 4:44 PM (GMT -7)   
I am a U.S. citizen that has been blessed to have incredible benefits, but I for one am very in favor of universal medicine. I think that it is a great myth and political ploy that in a universal healthcare system, you will have to wait incredible lengths of time of help or services. In reality, this is a scare factor that has long been proven to be false. I have many Canadian friends that laugh at the notion that their health care is not on par with the U.S. In fact the U.S. does not even rank in the top 10 of healthiest countries. If we did have a universal healthcare system, then people would have more preventative care available to them which would help alleviate our hospitals from having so many severe cases of disease like diabetes and even Crohn's. It would also take pressure off of our emergency rooms because those that cannot afford insurance under our current system would not have to go to the E.R. to be seen for minor things like the common cold or flu. I am sure that we have all had long waits in the E.R. because it is overloaded with patients that could easily be seen in an Urgent care center or doctor's office.
Have you ever heard of someone in Canada or other country with universal healthcare, being turned away because of a pre-existing condition? In fact, have anyone ever heard anyone from these countries even use that term? It breaks my heart to hear about someone that needs treatment not receiving it because they cannot afford it. My father in law has liver disease and now is in desperate need of a full liver transplant. He works for the government as a electrical engineer and was only 3 months from retirement. He is in terrible condition and 2 times in the past month, he has had to have 8 liters of fluid drained from his abdominal cavity. His liver has gotten so big that it has actually now caused a hernia that cannot be operated on until he is able to get a transplant. He went through the whole process of getting his name on the list and being evaluated. Luckily, his name has been added to the transplant list, but what was very disheartening was the criteria of how they determine where you should be on the list. In an ideal situation, the list order should be determined by how bad a patient is and their likely chance of recovery. This was not the case, sure, they did factor in the severity of the disease, but also factored in was the type and quality of insurance that one has. In the richest country in the world, we are determining whether someone should be able to live due to their ability to pay or not. My father in law was added to the list, he has incredible insurance, and even the ability to pay for the medication that he will need afterwards, but he still was told that it would take about a year to get a donor liver and that he would have to be within a week to 2 weeks of complete liver failure before he would be able to receive it. So for all those that talk about having to wait a year for that needed transplant due to universal healthcare, guess what, that happens here in the U.S. too.
I am proud to be an American and so grateful that I have been afforded all of the many freedoms and rights that are here. I just cannot justify not helping all those that are in need. I for one am willing to wait a little longer for treatment, if this is what is required in order for someone else to also receive the treatment that they need. I am so fortunate to have benefits through my wife and here employer and the option of medicare if I were to lose that. I am on SSDI and choose not use medicare so that the services can be used by someone else that does not have outside benefits. My concern before I was on SSDI, was what would I do if I were to have lost my benefits through my wife? I checked with my a family member who sells insurance and he said that due to my PRE-EXISTING condition of Crohn's disease, I could not even purchase it for myself.

PV
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Date Joined May 2006
Total Posts : 1177
   Posted 11/3/2008 5:56 PM (GMT -7)   
My husband and I have pretty good insurance through work, thankfully. My parents would like to immigrate to the US to spend their retirement with us. However, they both have pre-existing conditions. I would willingly pay high premiums to get them health insurance, but noone will accept them even because of their health conditions.

I'd like a system where if you don't have good health insurance options open, that you can _buy_ health insurance from the government, that will allow for pre-existing conditions coverage, to everyone, citizen or otherwise. If the government also wants to provide free healthcare for folks without existing insurance, that's fine too.

FitzyK23
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Date Joined May 2005
Total Posts : 4219
   Posted 11/3/2008 6:58 PM (GMT -7)   
Tsitodawg -

Wonderfully written post.

I just wanted to add that in the US, with excellent health coverage through my dad's employer, I was told I was going to have to wait SIX MONTHS to see a neurologist - I had a ski injury that resulted in a sprained neck and a concussion and about 6 months later had totally debilitating head aches. Finally my primary sent me to the ER just to get a cat scan - one that should have been done through a neuro since this was an on-going problem not a brand new emergency. So even in the US there can be long waits for things.

Like others, my number one concern is that some pressure is put on insurance companies to do away with pre-existing conditions. Also, I would like affordable insurance available to those who can not get it through their job. It is very scary that even the richest crohnie probably couldn't buy a plan.
27 Year old married female law student (last year!!). Diagnosed w/ CD 4 years ago, IBS for over 10 years before that, which was probably the CD. I am sort of lactose intollerant too but can handle anything cultured and do well w/ lactose pills and lactaid. For crohns I am currently on Pentasa 4 pills/4x day and hysociamine prn. I also have bad acid reflux and have been on PPI's since age 13. I have been through prilosec, prevacid, and nexium. Currently I am on Protonix in the morning and Zantac at night. I also take a birth control pill to allow some fun in my life.


randynoguts
Veteran Member


Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 6050
   Posted 11/3/2008 7:41 PM (GMT -7)   
ivy, i never said the US system was the best. far from it obviously.. but it is the way we have done things for 200+years. and its worked so far for the majority of people. in any system there will be instances of failure.

as for long waits, i think if you look up health care wait times , im sure something will pop up that will lead you to the statistics. i am basing my times on news accounts over the last few years of differant debates about socialized medicine.

Canada wait time vary i know. our location next to Vancouver canada give us insight to the nmber of canadians that come south to get treatment so they wont die on the "list" or that want to get the joint replaced before they become permantly disabled etc...

we have the same problems in some of our states, lack of medical providers send some alaskans down here to seattle for care they cannot get in their state. some small towns in the northern plains have not had drs in years. so will universal care help them? no. you cantmake a dr live where he does not want to live . you can bribe them, which happens all the time. our government pays the schooling of drs that will work in the boonies for a set number of years.

did you know there is already and unspoken cut off for heart and liver transplants in the US? i bet not. they keep it quiet... if you knew that after a certain age you aint getting a transplant you be pretty pissed right. you would think you have as much right to that organ as the teenager in the next bed but you dont. decisions are made by people everyday that are not drs that impact our lives already. why make it worse.
randynoguts 



     http://www.geocities.com/randynogutsweb/


FitzyK23
Veteran Member


Date Joined May 2005
Total Posts : 4219
   Posted 11/3/2008 7:58 PM (GMT -7)   
Hey Randy - I want to ask you a question if I can without violating any rules about political debate - in my opinion neither candidate is proposing socialized medicine. Do you disagree? I explain my point of view on your original post.
27 Year old married female law student (last year!!). Diagnosed w/ CD 4 years ago, IBS for over 10 years before that, which was probably the CD. I am sort of lactose intollerant too but can handle anything cultured and do well w/ lactose pills and lactaid. For crohns I am currently on Pentasa 4 pills/4x day and hysociamine prn. I also have bad acid reflux and have been on PPI's since age 13. I have been through prilosec, prevacid, and nexium. Currently I am on Protonix in the morning and Zantac at night. I also take a birth control pill to allow some fun in my life.

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