Going Organic (for Ivy)

New Topic Post Reply Printable Version
[ << Previous Thread | Next Thread >> ]

snohare
Veteran Member


Date Joined Oct 2004
Total Posts : 2088
   Posted 4/8/2009 7:44 PM (GMT -7)   
Hi Ivy. Nice to know one of us has some shame about jijacking threads ! smilewinkgrin
What actually happened was that I was watching my diet really carefully, avoiding all the bad things that had showed up during my exclusion diet, but found that I was getting less and less able to eat food without it going straight through me. (Nowadays I would think I was lacking digestive enzymes with that sort of immediate and acidic diarrhoea, but anyway.)
Eventually I was living on Complan (convalescent food in packets) and eggs - nothing else ! And as you can imagine, losing both weight and hope, neither of which I had in any large quantity in the first place. I had previously been this ill on pred and other such like heavy guns, and given the "come back in a month and we'll adjust the dosage" advice on offer with the NHS last time which ate up about a year of my life, was not willing to be so darn stupid a second time, which in effect exhausted all my mainstream medical options. Being jobless, free medical treatment was all I could hope for. However my younger sister who is pretty clued up medically being a midwife, knew of a friend through her church, who was a nutritional therapist, and recommended I see her. This would be private and costly, but my Dad offered to pay for this and any ensuing treatment because he was so concerned, so off I went on an overnight bus trip.
Well, I was all ready to find a charlatan, but in two hours of detailed, wide ranging discussion, she never set a foot wrong, and she didn't even know to watch what she said because I am so into reading up on cellular biology ! And not only that, but she was able to tell me what some of my past medical history had been, before I could tell her. If like me you consider that the validity of a paradigm is to be found in its predictive powers, and contrast that with doctors who actively ignore symptoms as irrelevant or non-existent that are obviously not so, then you can see why I was inclined to take her advice.
To cut a long story short, she told me that my gut was so severely stressed that it was very sensitive to chemical residues in food, and that I should be eating organic food only at that time. (Ironically enough, I was always keen to for environmental reasons, just kept on not paying the premium price because I was already spending so much on food.) To prove the point, she told me to go home and have a bowl of porridge made from organic oatflakes rather than the nonorganic ones I had previously been ill with. I did just that, and found that for the first time in months, I did not have an attack of diarrhoea straight after eating a meal.
Since then I have found that non-organic potatoes can be safe or not, and I don't know why; and ditto for lettuce and tomatoes. Both of the latter are often intensively farmed with lots of pesticidal sprays, so I simply avoid them altogether nowadays, although I have sometimes been lucky. Apples are the same.
I tend to think of the organic versus non-organic debate as being a numbers game. It is all about odds. Non-organic food in the UK is sometimes grown organically but without being certified; or is grown using mainly organic methods, but not exclusively so. Some varieties of non-organic vegetables almost have to have specific soil or care conditions, and so will be more or less likely to have specific nutrients like magnesium or salicylates that are typically more often present in larger quantities in organic produce. So if the salicylates are a valuable anti-inflammatory, as evidence would seem to suggest, or you are short of magnesium as many people with Crohns are supposedly likely to be, then the more often you eat organic the better off you will be, but you can never be sure that any individual plant has a lot of a specific micronutrient in it; it varies enormously. Conversely, the more non-organic food you eat, the more likely it is that it will not have a full range of micronutrients, because it is more likely to be the plant equivalent of a steroid junkie. (Although, to be fair, I have grown on plants that are raised as non-organic seedlings, and have had no problems that I can see.) And of course the pesticides, fungicides and herbicides used, not to mention the carrier oils...well, I came to being green via reading up on the horrific cellular and genetic effects of these biochemical poisons, which basically don't discriminate between their targets and human beings. Many of the methylating mechanisms (on/off switches for individual genes, the mechanism by which environment affects biology) they interfere with would certainly be the sort of thing that could potentially trigger genetic screw ups like NOD2 and its' companions, which are known to be involved if not initially needed for Crohn's Disease.
All clear as mud, eh ! wink Hope this helps.

ivy6
Elite Member


Date Joined Sep 2005
Total Posts : 10404
   Posted 4/8/2009 7:54 PM (GMT -7)   
Wow, that's interesting. Thanks very much. I am gobsmacked at the organic porridge story.

So, the extra cost of organic produce is worth it for you?

What about bananas? I (innocent that I am) tend to think that they are ok if not organic, as you peel them before eating them, anyway. Is that right, or am I waaay off track here?

Ivy.
Co-Moderator Crohn's Forum.


FitzyK23
Veteran Member


Date Joined May 2005
Total Posts : 4219
   Posted 4/8/2009 8:04 PM (GMT -7)   
Sno - have you followed the spinach and sunflower seed thing on the UC board. It is based on a lack of magnesium theory.

Also you mentioned in another post you know your crohns is MAP based. Why is that?
27 Year old married female law student (last year!!). Diagnosed w/ CD 4 years ago, IBS for over 10 years before that, which was probably the CD. I am sort of lactose intollerant too but can handle anything cultured and do well w/ lactose pills and lactaid. For crohns I am currently on Pentasa 4 pills/4x day and hysociamine prn. I also have bad acid reflux and have been on PPI's since age 13. I have been through prilosec, prevacid, and nexium. Currently I am on Protonix in the morning and Zantac at night.  I take xanax prn for situational anxiety (aka no easy bathroom access). 


snohare
Veteran Member


Date Joined Oct 2004
Total Posts : 2088
   Posted 4/8/2009 9:23 PM (GMT -7)   
shockedIvy, I am not fully up to date, but I know that a decade ago banana plantations were a leading source of organophosphate poisoning in the Third World ! And yes, waay off track, the bananas absorb the pesticides right through the skin, like most fruit peels it is really not nearly as impermeable as most people think. Nowadays the bunches on the trees are covered by a perforated plastic bag impregnated with organophosphates which gradually release but allow the bananas to sweat. I believe, but don't quote me on this, that these are often removed by unprotected workers, who would of course be exposed to large amounts of residue. Very teratogenic, the WHO has released some shocking figures. I have seen those bags on them in the supermarket once in a blue moon - wouldn't go near them. I would never eat a non-organic banana, it is one fruit where if it doesn't say organic, it most assuredly is not; fungicides are in constant on some plantations, because there are fungal diseases that are threatening to wipe out the banana as a species. I'm not found of Alar, but what I have read of the stuff they put on bananas is pretty horrendous - typical of all organophosphates, which (even allowing for scaremongering) I am convinced are marketed by truly insane people.
Yes, the porridge thing was a real eye opener to me. It was so obviously a case of only one single variable being changed; and it couldn't be the placebo effect, it was something I ate just exactly as before.
Going organic as a cost - well, how much is good health worth ? Back before I saw the nutritional therapist I used to visit a friend on overnight stays to do gardening (where I learned my organic veggie gardening). I used to go away really exhausted, but would oddly enough be more energetic in the days following, which was the reverse of when I did things at home, where I would be exhausted for several days. Eventually the penny dropped....I was eating beautifully cooked organic food - it was all my friend and his wife bought or grew. Yes, it has definitely been worth it for me, I would be in the same shoes as many on this forum I think were it not for my diet; but with rising prices here, some things are going off the menu unless I grow them myself. Pumpkin seeds are now £5.30 a kilo, quinoa flakes are up to £5.37 for 500g. Quinoa of course is a complete food - has all the amino acids used in the body - has the likes of calcium and magnesium in it, and I use it to stabilise my blood sugar by baking bread with it; but at £1 extra per loaf, three loaves a week at least... eyes I am going to miss it badly, unless I can grow some here. I can see me turning into a farmer. I am just about to start growing my own sunflowers, and they ain't for the cute li'l birdies !
Fitzy, I had not seen the spinach and sunflower thread, but I will be sure to look, thanks for mentioning it. My nutritional therapist was adamant that 90% of the women she saw, and many of the male patients, were magnesium deficient, and that this was particularly bad in relation to migraine sufferers. Apparently, if you don't have enough magnesium in your nervous system, it gets scavenged from your gut, and you lose the ability to digest; so one of the supplements she prescribed for me was magnesium. Right enough, in many intensively farmed soils, magnesium levels are way down, it is considered too unimportant to bother replenishing in standard commercial fertilisers I believe.
When I was a child I used to visit my uncle, drinking unpasteurised milk from his cow Daisy. Daisy stayed down the road once, being cared for with the cattle of a man who had severe stomach problems. Daisy then got ill, like his cattle, and on a later visit was gone. I never heard anything more about her....you can see where this is going, can't you ? I won't tell you what happened to him, but it wasn't a happy ending.
Both myself and my wee sister, who stayed there on a couple of holidays, ended up with stomach problems. In retrospect, that was about the time I started to have repeat bouts of "appendicitis", feeling fatigued and having to eat large quantities of food just to stay skinny. In time, I also lost my eidetic memory, and I would say have suffered chronically low levels of B12.
I reckon that the cows had Johne's Disease, and having done a fair bit of anorak-site surfing, I am persuaded that MAP is the cause of Crohn's (not necessarily the only bacterial pathogen that can cause it, I am willing to accept there may be more) just as it is in Johne's Disease, and that eliminating MAP can cure Crohn's Disease. That is assuming that MAP causes Johne's (it fulfills all Koch's postulates there) and that Johne's Disease and Crohn's Disease are actually the same disease in different species. MAP has been found in 90% of a sampleof CD patients, so there is a known link there. But the reason that I am so willing to accept a pathogenic cause for my disease is simple, and totally subjective. I know that when I am flaring, with fevers and sweats and chills, after a while I will suddenly get better. It feels no different to having chickenpox as a child, and getting over that, or mumps, or any one of the viruses I used to go down with about once a year. I am having a totally normal immune system response to a pathogen, and when my immune system gets back in control, there is a very charcteristic phase where I feel washed out but lucid and much healthier. Crohn's to me just seems so totally like a bug, for once I have gone with Occam's Razor. I don't pretend this is the whole story, knowing bacteriology there is likely to be co-infection and clades and who knows what, but if I had to bet my life on it....I would. I'm certain, I wouldn't say I can know.
If you want to know more about MAP, I suggest you go to YouTube and search for it there, there are some good presentations given by researchers on there. There are also some very good but technical papers detailing the effects of biologics like Humira and Remicade and antibiotics like Cipro, which basically suggest that they cause genetic mutation that makes the infection worse long term; I found them on an extremely quiet, if not totally nerdish, forum that was a gold mine of bacteriology papers. (Which suggested cinnamon and turmeric as alternative treatments.) I think it was Canadian, it might even have been professional, and I got there via Googling "RMAT" and other "anti-MAP" terms, but unfortunately I can't remember names. (It was a long night, I was falling asleep, I just kept surfing because it was all adding up so well for once, it's not often a shaft of illuminating light happens like that, not in my mind anyway wink)
And so to bed. I hope it isn't as late with you as it is here, Fitzy, or you are going to need matchsticks to keep your eyes open at work tomorrow. yeah

FitzyK23
Veteran Member


Date Joined May 2005
Total Posts : 4219
   Posted 4/8/2009 9:30 PM (GMT -7)   
It is late but I tend to my best work (hence procrastinating) late. But, I'm off to bed now. I am familiar with the MAP theory and your story makes a lot of sense. This may be one of the articles you were referring to. I enjoyed reading this one. http://www.cbc.ca/national/blog/video/healtheducation/cattle_and_crohns_connection.html
27 Year old married female law student (last year!!). Diagnosed w/ CD 4 years ago, IBS for over 10 years before that, which was probably the CD. I am sort of lactose intollerant too but can handle anything cultured and do well w/ lactose pills and lactaid. For crohns I am currently on Pentasa 4 pills/4x day and hysociamine prn. I also have bad acid reflux and have been on PPI's since age 13. I have been through prilosec, prevacid, and nexium. Currently I am on Protonix in the morning and Zantac at night.  I take xanax prn for situational anxiety (aka no easy bathroom access). 


Trigirl
Veteran Member


Date Joined Jan 2006
Total Posts : 768
   Posted 4/8/2009 9:40 PM (GMT -7)   
Sleep tight and thanks for all the info. I did check into it more after reading something you had written before. Appreciate your willingness to share.

ivy6
Elite Member


Date Joined Sep 2005
Total Posts : 10404
   Posted 4/8/2009 9:56 PM (GMT -7)   
Thanks for that, Sno, especially as it must have taken at least an hour to type. Bananas are my staple fruit, so am quite aghast at what I may be ingesting, so thank you.

It's all very interesting - I'll need to think about it, and see what I can source here.

Thanks again,

Ivy.
Co-Moderator Crohn's Forum.


SydneyJo
Veteran Member


Date Joined Mar 2006
Total Posts : 1354
   Posted 4/8/2009 11:20 PM (GMT -7)   
That was very interesting Snohare, thank you for posting this.
I especially took on board the part were you describe the Cd flares as a bug - exactly the way I feel when flaring.
I myself will look into the whole organics thing in my area, I know there are a lot of organic markets that run weekly to once a month - will be checking that out.
Thanks for the 'food for thought'
Jo

BeeSting
Regular Member


Date Joined Nov 2008
Total Posts : 392
   Posted 4/9/2009 11:55 AM (GMT -7)   
Thank you snohare,
I really appreciated your theories about the benefits we can get by using organic foods, and the MAP theories are important as well.
Please, keep us updated about how the organic food is working for you! Have you considered trying the antibiotics to get rid of the MAP bacteries?

snohare
Veteran Member


Date Joined Oct 2004
Total Posts : 2088
   Posted 4/9/2009 6:15 PM (GMT -7)   
eyes Oh Ivy, the time flew past - you have no idea how many typos there were in that ! yeah
The mentions of salicylates, which are a group of aspirin type compounds (akin to Asacol) found in many leafy vegetables, is based on nutritional research carried out on would you believe Buddhist monks, living in a monastery by a loch in Scotland, who grow all their own organic food. Be warned though, some people are actively made ill by salicylates and should not ingest them (a genetic disorder I think). Personally I think that Beta-carotene is more of an anti-inflammatory for me, I certainly seem to see an immediate benefit from adding veggies like carrots and sweet potatoes to my diet (literally; the next day I will have more energy and less stomach upset); but if I miss out green leafy veg for long, there is always a flare going to happen; so much so that I have become conditioned to actively seeking out cabbages etc whenever I run out of vegetables, in preference to anything else. So some things have a remedial effect, and some things I think are more long-term maintenance. As you can imagine, I really hate carrot fly and have a row of sweet potatoes sitting in waterfilled jars, waiting to grow roots and shoots....! wink
Error of the day was, I confused glutamine with magnesium, it is glutamine that is scavenged from the gut. ( nono You don't believe everything you read on the internet do you ? smilewinkgrin I do have severe problems with declarative memory...) However the rest of my info on magnesium is correct, to the best of my knowledge. eyes
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMucsxJau6k
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5pYuf5rnnQo
http://www.crohns.org/treatment/index.htm
One tiny detail I just noticed is that there is a theory that antibiotic therapy using macrolides may not work in those who have previously been exposed to them. Well, being allergic to penicillin, I know the name "Clarithromycin" all too well... shakehead But what the heck, what do we have to lose but our bowel contents, eh... eyes oh that's right, they are gone already !

snohare
Veteran Member


Date Joined Oct 2004
Total Posts : 2088
   Posted 4/9/2009 6:34 PM (GMT -7)   
http://www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?m=1410492&f=17&p=2
That's where I started my research marathon. Healingwell strikes again ! tongue
New Topic Post Reply Printable Version
Forum Information
Currently it is Sunday, December 04, 2016 3:23 AM (GMT -7)
There are a total of 2,732,437 posts in 301,021 threads.
View Active Threads


Who's Online
This forum has 151185 registered members. Please welcome our newest member, monjurmuradd.
175 Guest(s), 1 Registered Member(s) are currently online.  Details
Lamilla


Follow HealingWell.com on Facebook  Follow HealingWell.com on Twitter  Follow HealingWell.com on Pinterest
Advertisement
Advertisement

©1996-2016 HealingWell.com LLC  All rights reserved.

Advertise | Privacy Policy & Disclaimer