MAP, Johne's, Milk, Crohn's

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GDen
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Date Joined May 2009
Total Posts : 703
   Posted 1/12/2010 11:43 PM (GMT -7)   
This is the first time I've seen this article and... WOW! I've heard of MAP (Mycobacteria paratuberculosis) and the theory that Crohn's may be due to an infection and that's about it, but this article really links everything together. However, the article also gets my BS detector going somewhat with its conspiracies and lack of referenced sources. I've also never really read/heard anything similar in mainstream IBD channels (CCFA, gastroenterologists, etc.). The article's five years old, but it really does get you thinking. I drank a lot of milk growing up, and still drink a fair amount.

What do you think? Anybody been treated with the MAP antibiotics mentioned?

www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_id=40722
Cimzia, Asacol


UC21
Regular Member


Date Joined Oct 2009
Total Posts : 68
   Posted 1/13/2010 12:26 AM (GMT -7)   
Talked to my doc about it.... He basically said it was bogus and proven wrong...

ivy6
Elite Member


Date Joined Sep 2005
Total Posts : 10404
   Posted 1/13/2010 1:48 AM (GMT -7)   
Try doing a forum search. This topic must have been discussed at least a hundred times before... but you might find some good info if you just read earlier discussions.
Co-Moderator Crohn's Forum.

Medications for Crohn's ~~ Diet and Nutritional Therapy for Crohn's ~~ Dealing with Abscesses and Fistulae ~~


EMom
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Date Joined Aug 2007
Total Posts : 990
   Posted 1/13/2010 6:17 AM (GMT -7)   
Our doctor said he believes Crohn's is infectious (with an underlying genetic component). He just would not commit to what he believes the pathogen is. Fwiw, I believe MAP to be a contender. I do not believe it's ever been "proven wrong".

chocolate_stains
Regular Member


Date Joined Dec 2008
Total Posts : 61
   Posted 1/13/2010 6:33 AM (GMT -7)   
UC21, your doctor obviously does not know what he is talking about. Even the most 'mainstream', well-respected doctors, ie William Sandborn or Balfour Sartor, do not state that the MAP theory has been proven wrong; there is evidence that does not implicate MAP as a causative agent, but none that proves it to be harmless.

GDen, for more information on MAP and its relationship with CD, you might want to check out www.crohns.org www.crohnscanada.org www.youtube.com/ibdvideos www.johnes.org (at johnes, check out the presentations)

In my opinion, there is sufficient evidence that MAP most likely does cause some cases of CD, knowing which cases, and how to treat those cases is a more difficult problem, and one that won't likely be solved on a large scale basis for many patients until the medical community accepts that some cases of CD are caused by MAP.

Illini
Regular Member


Date Joined Dec 2007
Total Posts : 298
   Posted 1/13/2010 6:45 AM (GMT -7)   
It has not been proven wrong or right--remains a theory, and that's it. It is definitely on the dairy industry's radar as a potential problem. You can buy milk ultra-pasteurized, which I don't think MAP can survive.

There is also talk about pathogenic E. coli being the culprit in ileal Crohn's disease. From reading literature I would agree with EMom's doc that the cause is both genetic (a deficiency in innate immunity and/or inability to control adaptive immune response) and environmental (MAP, E. coli, dysbiosis etc.). You can see from reading the forum that there are many manifestations of Crohn's, many of which look nothing like Johne's disease, so I don't expect one simple explanation.
July 2007 Drug-Induced Liver Injury
January 2008 Crohn's Ileitis
Currently trying... Enteral Nutrition, VSL#3, Primadophilus Reuteri, Folic Acid


Nanners
Elite Member


Date Joined Apr 2005
Total Posts : 14995
   Posted 1/13/2010 7:20 AM (GMT -7)   
I agree with Illini that it still remains a theory. I have heard it could be from milk, or for those who took alot of antibiotics, or for those who smoked, or its from bacteria. How do you explain the little one year old on here who has Crohns? What if this baby was breastfed, how could they get MAP? To be honest, no one knows, and the variables and possibilities are endless. JMHO
Gail*Nanners* Co-Moderator for Crohns Disease & Anxiety/Panic
Crohn's Disease for over 34 years. Currently on Asacol, Prilosec, Estrace, Prinivil, Diltiazem, Percoset prn for pain, Zofran, Phenergan, Probiotics, Calcium, Vit D, and Xanax prn. Resections in 2002 & 2005. Also diagnosed w/ Fibromyalgia, Osteoarthritis, & Anxiety. Currently my Crohns is in remission, but my joints are going crazy!
*Every tomorrow has two handles.  We can take hold of it by the handle of anxiety, or by the handle of faith"*

riesasmom
Regular Member


Date Joined Dec 2009
Total Posts : 44
   Posted 1/13/2010 8:01 AM (GMT -7)   
I believe that MAP is the cause in many cases of crohns. There is a doc who is treating it with a combination of antibiotics with great success. He actually is working on ONE pill and states it should be available in 2012. His name is Prof Borody. Google his name on youtube and there is an interview you can watch. It is several parts, and I believe he states the year the pill should be available in part 2 or 3. The interviewer also speaks with one of his patients who was successfully treated by him. Very interesting.

Escalador
Regular Member


Date Joined Jul 2009
Total Posts : 103
   Posted 1/13/2010 8:31 AM (GMT -7)   
@Nanners about the one year old... I think he got it through his mothers milk ... today we find lots of elements and supstances in breastmilk and the placenta that should not be there and are a direct consequence of modern life
to quote the article:
"The mystery was resolved in 1984, when a microbiologist at Brown's University, Dr. Rodrick Chiodini, demonstrated that m. paratuberculosis sheds its cell wall in humans, and takes a new form, called a spheroblast. In a landmark study, Dr. Chiodini cultured Mycobacteria from children infected with Crohn's. "
So MAP gets into children... we need to indentify how and stop it... It might not cause Crohns but it still is not good

as for the MAP theory... I am not a doctor but I do think that the cause of Crohns is infectious but can't be sure is it MAP or E. Coli or something else... if you look at the documentary "Food Inc" you'll learn that we eat a lot of fecies, bacteria, antibiotics and other elements through our milk and meat that should not be there in the first place... I believe thats the root of all evil for us ..one of those things could be the cause of Crohns but then again all of those things could do it also (just think of all the different areas Crohns affects)

Post Edited (Escalador) : 1/13/2010 8:34:44 AM (GMT-7)


Former58D
Regular Member


Date Joined May 2009
Total Posts : 173
   Posted 1/13/2010 8:40 AM (GMT -7)   
There was a post a couple months ago regarding the subdivision of Crohn's into multiple sub-types in the next couple of years based on an increased body of knowledge regarding the inflammatory process. I believe this is relevant because of the various sites of inflammation (mine is predominantly rectal with no terminal ileum involvment), the individual responses to medications, and the various genetic findings to name a few.

MAP may be a cause for some, but in all likelihood there are multiple causes. Even the inflammatory process itself is variable and redundant - why tnf blockers may wear off or not work at all for some.

I work with someone with small bowel Crohn's. He has been on the anti-MAP antibiotic therapy to no avail. Remicade and Humira are the only things which have worked well for him.
"What can't be changed must be endured" - unknown

DX with distal Crohn's colitis Oct 2007, predominantly in rectum
Colozal (750mg): 3 pills 3xdaily
Cortifoam - 1 nightly
6MP - currently at 100mg and waiting for response......


Escalador
Regular Member


Date Joined Jul 2009
Total Posts : 103
   Posted 1/13/2010 8:57 AM (GMT -7)   
as the article suggests, the problem is in the food and in the water... so even if you undergo the RMAT therapy, if the theory is correct, MAP still comes into you and there lies the problem

Valerie3
Veteran Member


Date Joined Feb 2009
Total Posts : 529
   Posted 1/13/2010 2:33 PM (GMT -7)   
I believe that there are multiple causes and there is a genetic factor that triggers an abnormal response under certain factors. I am starting to wonder if bacteria is the cause for me, since Cipro and Flagyl have completely gotten rid of my symptoms. I'll be finding out in a week or so if it's because my symptoms were due to an abscess or if it's just my Crohn's. Interesting stuff though, I've read a lot on MAP. As I said though, I do think that there are multiple factors and that there are many different causes for this disease, but I really am beginning to think that for me, bacteria is the cause.

hld4good
Regular Member


Date Joined Jan 2010
Total Posts : 193
   Posted 1/13/2010 6:04 PM (GMT -7)   
Even my gatroenterologist recommends using only ultra-pasteurized dairy now. I began to use it about 6 years ago.

GDen
Veteran Member


Date Joined May 2009
Total Posts : 703
   Posted 1/13/2010 6:16 PM (GMT -7)   
And on the opposite side is that guy running around saying raw milk cures Crohn's!
Cimzia, Asacol


Former58D
Regular Member


Date Joined May 2009
Total Posts : 173
   Posted 1/13/2010 6:34 PM (GMT -7)   
That's true!! There are many incidents of totally contradicting therapies:

High fat/protein versus the low residue (high carb) diets
One therapy involving increased Vitamin D supplementation versus a doctor who advocates very low Vitamin D intake
and now the milk!
"What can't be changed must be endured" - unknown

DX with distal Crohn's colitis Oct 2007, predominantly in rectum
Colozal (750mg): 3 pills 3xdaily
Cortifoam - 1 nightly
6MP - currently at 100mg and waiting for response......


willj
New Member


Date Joined Dec 2009
Total Posts : 19
   Posted 1/13/2010 7:03 PM (GMT -7)   
Professor John Hermon-Taylor is by far the expert in the world on MAP and its detection.  He is currently trying to raise private funds to develop a DNA-Crohn's vaccine which bolsters the immune system to getting rid of the MAP infection.  Watch this space.  All the best Crohn's doctors are treating for MAP - Prof Borody, Prof JHT etc etc

Steakum824
Regular Member


Date Joined May 2003
Total Posts : 40
   Posted 1/21/2010 10:04 AM (GMT -7)   
Hmm, this is interesting stuff....much like Valerie a few posts above, Cipro and Flagyl have completely turned my life around. I have gone from an anxious wreck about 'where is the bathroom?' at all times, to not even thinking about it. I am still not completely "normal", but I'd say the improvement in my quality of life has been 50-75%.

I started seeing a new GI doctor a few weeks ago...he is the best. I said to him "If Cipro and Flagyl make such a huge difference for me, then doesn't that point to some out-of-control bacterial overgrowth being the catalyst for my issues?"...his answer: "Yes, and that's what we're going to find out"...so I went for a pelvic MRI the next week, had labs, and will be seeing him again in Feb. to discuss it...great doctor, and one who is very open to the bacterial factor in Crohn's.

docdundidit
Regular Member


Date Joined Jan 2010
Total Posts : 24
   Posted 1/21/2010 10:28 AM (GMT -7)   
Don't know much about MAP.
My daughter reccently tested positive for b.hominis and bacteria (from a stool study). This is the first time in the 2 yrs with Crohn's that a stool study was done. I feel it is a big deal and has to be contributing in some way to her latest increased inflammation levels and decline in health. Her GI doc and regular doc both feel it's not a big deal but treated her with Alinia. (I actually had to remind one doctor that we were waiting on the reults, which he had, but didn't look at). It was a 3 day treatment and she completed it last Friday. Before she started her doc told me she would not feel bad while on the Alinia. But she felt terrible the entire time. That to me says it worked at some level and I am optimistic this will help to some degree. My concern is the doctors either don't know much about this (which is really microbiology) or don't want to address it all.
Same with diet...I have yet to have a GI doc REALLY discuss diet. Very frustrating.
My 14 yr old daughter has Crohn's. Diagnosed March 08. Currently taking Imuran and Pentasa. Also probiotics, Vit D and C supplements, Omega 3, folic acid, calcium.

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