New Topic Post Reply Printable Version
[ << Previous Thread | Next Thread >> ]

vixen
Veteran Member


Date Joined Jan 2010
Total Posts : 794
   Posted 2/4/2010 9:11 AM (GMT -7)   
 
In two days time my son is due to re-introduce dairy into his diet including full fat milk and obviously with all the info on MAP I am thinking whether this is good.
I am assuming that if he were to have UHT full fat milk then any MAP bacteria will have been killed off and I assume that the fact that it has been through this process doesn't mean that it will have any less calories than the basic pasteurised milk?
And what about cheese? He is not a great lover of cheese but he does like parmesan on pasta dishes and a slice of that 'plastic' stuff that is put on burgers  in fast food outlets(very rare that he gets this)
Does the cheese making process kill off the bacteria?
Any thoughts on this?  

MMMNAVY
Veteran Member


Date Joined Jul 2006
Total Posts : 6927
   Posted 2/4/2010 10:24 AM (GMT -7)   
Vixen,
I am not a big believer in the whole MAP theory. They have been trying to "prove" it for more then 40 years and it is so far not proven. We do not know exactly what causes crohns and you might want to think about what nutrition he needs.   Milk and it's products are safe for me (in fact I have it at every meal), but this disease is highly individual.
But it might not be out of line to think about a hydrogen breathe test if you are concerned about bacterial overgrowth.
Take care,
Navy


Forum Co-moderator - Crohn's Disease/Thyroid Disorders:_All comments have the caveat contact your local health care provider.

I will find a way or make one. –Phillip Sidney 1554-1586

All that I am and all that I shall ever be, I owe to my Angel Mother.

The Bucket List- Have you found joy in your life?  Has your life brought joy to others?

Make sure your suffering has meaning…

Post Edited (MMMNAVY) : 2/4/2010 10:31:26 AM (GMT-7)


Rider Fan
Veteran Member


Date Joined May 2008
Total Posts : 1445
   Posted 2/4/2010 10:25 AM (GMT -7)   
Theoretically the UHT process should kill any MAP. I don't think cheese is guaranteed to be MAP-free.  Having said that I'm not a big MAP-causes-IBD guy.
 
For myself, unless I'm feeling really well I don't eat any dairy and I never drink milk. Milk isn't health food IMHO.


33 y/o male. Dx'ed in 1999. No surgeries.

Current meds: Humira 2/27/09. Proferrin iron pills.

Tried SCD, didn't work, now avoiding gluten and dairy.


Go Saskatchewan Roughriders!


Nanners
Elite Member


Date Joined Apr 2005
Total Posts : 14995
   Posted 2/4/2010 10:27 AM (GMT -7)   
I am a person not fully convinced on this MAP theory. My personal opinion is there are too many variables for one thing to cause Crohns. JMHO

With that being said, most folks with Crohns seem to be lactose intolerant. If he tries it again, and feels gassy and poopy, then more than likely he is lactose intolerant. I can't drink milk, but can have a "little" ice cream and I do eat cheese with no problem. Motzarella cheese seems to agree well with me.

Hope that helps a little.
Gail*Nanners* Co-Moderator for Crohns Disease & Anxiety/Panic
Crohn's Disease for over 34 years. Currently on Asacol, Prilosec, Estrace, Prinivil, Diltiazem, Percoset prn for pain, Zofran, Phenergan, Probiotics, Calcium, Vit D, and Xanax prn. Resections in 2002 & 2005. Also diagnosed w/ Fibromyalgia, Osteoarthritis, & Anxiety. Currently my Crohns is in remission, but my joints are going crazy!
*Every tomorrow has two handles.  We can take hold of it by the handle of anxiety, or by the handle of faith"*

artist guy
Veteran Member


Date Joined Jan 2010
Total Posts : 1373
   Posted 2/4/2010 10:45 AM (GMT -7)   
I have had cd since 1970, I do not do dairy but i can tolerate cheese, but what i can have and do is goat milk, tastes exactly like milk.

artist guy


EMom
Veteran Member


Date Joined Aug 2007
Total Posts : 990
   Posted 2/4/2010 11:29 AM (GMT -7)   
Just curious...why is he re-introducing milk? Is this something you are doing through a nutritionist or a naturopath? I would resist this based on Nanners point that many/most people with Crohn's are lactose intolerant. Your son may not even realize he is because his symptoms are so mild.

Calories are not affected by the UHT process. Also, my understanding is that, though experts feel fairly certain it does, they have not proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that UHT kills MAP (at least I could find no proof about two yrs ago when I was researching this. Perhaps there are new studies...?). Also, in the past when I've looked, I could find no studies whatsoever that addressed cheese.

I am one who believes there could be a MAP link--perhaps not to ALL Crohn's, but to much of it. My son will not consume dairy of any kind, except the yogurt I make from UHT milk (which I have to boil anyway). I would DEFINITELY DISCOURAGE your son from consuming any "cheese product" like most so-called "American cheese" (like you'd get on your hamburger from a fast food restaurant). This stuff is NOT REAL skull and is made from the poorest quality milk and "milk product" (what is THAT anyway?!?!?!) available. skull

As cheeses go, imo a high quality (organically made), aged cheese is probably the safest product on the market. Elaine Gottschall only allows aged cheeses on the SCD because the aging process eliminates nearly all of the lactose--just like the home made yogurt which ferments for 24 hours. Again, there is no information that I've been able to find that addresses whether the making OR aging of cheese kills MAP. Hope this helps!
Mom to 17 year old son diagnosed in June, 2007.
Omega 3s, digestive enzymes, probiotics, vit. C, calcium, vit. D3, a good multivitamin and SCD legal yogurt
Started The Maker's Diet in Sept. '07. Incorporate Specific Carbohydrate Diet (SCD) recipes, too. Med-free.
http://www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=17&m=984588
http://www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=17&m=1533705
http://www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=17&p=1&m=1262312


hld4good
Regular Member


Date Joined Jan 2010
Total Posts : 193
   Posted 2/4/2010 1:21 PM (GMT -7)   
Ditto on the goat's milk. Tastes like milk, don't believe the reports of funny taste. Cow's milk is for calves. Just my opinion.
Age 58, Crohn's since age 21
3 bowel resections, 1980,88,95
1 fistula repair, 2005
probiotic
digestive enzymes
L-glutamine powder 3 times a day
sublingual B-12 and B complex
2 T. cod liver oil
2 tsp. tart cherry juice concentrate
Multiple vitamin, 2,500mg vit. C, 1,000mg calcium mag.


fruitgirl
Veteran Member


Date Joined Feb 2009
Total Posts : 7150
   Posted 2/4/2010 1:27 PM (GMT -7)   
No offense, but then why isn't goat's milk only for baby goats?
Co-Moderator, UC Forum
Status: Remission since May 2009!
Symptoms began in November 2008, ~4 weeks after giving birth to my son
Diagnosed with pancolitis on 1/30/09
Meds: Apriso (4 0.375g pills ONCE!! daily), mesalamine enema twice weekly, Natural Factors Ultimate probiotic 12/12 Formula, multivitamin.  Used prednisone (starting dose 40 mg) to get into remission.
 
 


artist guy
Veteran Member


Date Joined Jan 2010
Total Posts : 1373
   Posted 2/4/2010 1:54 PM (GMT -7)   
I like that one fruitgirl, we adults shouldn't drink milk anyway, I use goat milk in my oatmeal or coffee

artist guy


fruitgirl
Veteran Member


Date Joined Feb 2009
Total Posts : 7150
   Posted 2/4/2010 2:03 PM (GMT -7)   
I do drink (skim) milk though, and feel that there's benefit in doing so for adults, even. :) I don't have any issues with dairy, nor any other food, except artificial sweetners and MSG (which I don't consider food), though. I'm a pretty lucky IBDer in that sense.
Co-Moderator, UC Forum
Status: Remission since May 2009!
Symptoms began in November 2008, ~4 weeks after giving birth to my son
Diagnosed with pancolitis on 1/30/09
Meds: Apriso (4 0.375g pills ONCE!! daily), mesalamine enema twice weekly, Natural Factors Ultimate probiotic 12/12 Formula, multivitamin.  Used prednisone (starting dose 40 mg) to get into remission.
 
 


sickandlucky
Regular Member


Date Joined Oct 2009
Total Posts : 253
   Posted 2/4/2010 2:38 PM (GMT -7)   
I drink almond milk instead of cows milk, it agrees with my stomach and IMHO tastes much better.. I've never been a big fan of cows milk anyway, I refused to drink it when I was little so there you go.
I do love cheese though! I would consider taking lactaid when consuming dairy just to be safe... I don't find it gives me any problems but I do take lactaid. Better safe than sorry I guess.
female 19, diagnosed crohns december 2008
entocort/pentasa previously, now prednisone & imuran, probiotics, calcium w/d3, biotin, folic acid, zinc, omega 3s, digestive enzymes & prenatal multivitamin


vixen
Veteran Member


Date Joined Jan 2010
Total Posts : 794
   Posted 2/4/2010 3:05 PM (GMT -7)   
Wow,
Thanks for all your responses,
He has been off all 'solid' food for 7 weeks (under a dietician) and has been getting all of his nutrition from energy drinks. On 21 Jan a programme was started to re-introduce solid food again, first few days it was jelly, fruit juice, soup, then fish, chicken. eggs, rice etc etc, currently it is the bread, pasta stage and finally the milk and dairy products. Over this time his energy drinks have been reduced but from when we introduce dairy he is to have a another type of shake (mixed with MILK) to give him an extra 900 calories a day. Having read the label on the energy drinks they do contain lactose so I am assuming that isn't a problem for him and although there are quite a few theories out there regarding what causes crohns it just seemed a way of possibly reducing the chances of it flaring. To all extents he isn't a dairy user (doesn't even have cereal with milk) but milk shakes he will tolerate.
I agree that the 'plastic' cheese is completely disgusting but as it is generally quite rare that he has had it I have turned a blind eye to it in the past.
Did speak to his consultant regarding MAP but he wasn't convinced either but I would hate to turn around give him ordinary milk and have him doubled up in pain again.
Do know he has a problem with MSG though-gives him headaches (although other end not affected)
Decisions, decisions, it's like playing the lottery, you don't know if you are going to back a winner or not :(
I guess that if he has ordinary pasteurised milk then within a day or two (or even sooner) if it was a problem then he would know about it and then it could be avoided in future.
Emom, I guess I don't really understand whether his symptoms are mild or not tbh as they appear to be throwing everything at him right now. He is small and underweight for his age(believe his BMI was 15)and anaemic, the photos from his colonoscopy showed internally that he was a mess. Has just been put on entocort for three weeks and subject to blood tests will be going onto an immunosuppressant next week, as well as being on pentasa and two times anti-biotics and about to start on the B12 injections too. Ours lives have been invaded :)

Crohnie4Life
Regular Member


Date Joined Jan 2010
Total Posts : 69
   Posted 2/4/2010 4:33 PM (GMT -7)   
I can drink milk and eat cheese with no problem. If I am flaring, I will limit it just to be safe.

The thing that gets me about goats milk is that it tastes salty to begin with. The salty taste does go away, but it can be overwhelming for me.

artist guy
Veteran Member


Date Joined Jan 2010
Total Posts : 1373
   Posted 2/4/2010 4:41 PM (GMT -7)   
yea for milk and ice cream is like a knife going thru and really bloaty and gassie, but in this disc. earlier you mentioned hard type cheese and they are the most healthiest any way. I feel bad for you and your son I know exactly what your going thru, it is devastating to parents, because you feel out of control, my parents went thru that when I was 19, luckily there are place like hw and other forums, and the dr's know so much more with the high tech drugs today, when I was your sons age it was pred. and azulfadine.


yea I'm a salt person, so I don't notice
artist guy

Post Edited (artist guy) : 2/4/2010 4:54:21 PM (GMT-7)


comedybob
Regular Member


Date Joined Jan 2010
Total Posts : 241
   Posted 2/4/2010 10:14 PM (GMT -7)   
Goats milk is better than cow. still has lactose and casean, but less. I am of the mind that there may be something to this whole MAP theory. That being said, I don't believe that Crohn's is a singular cause condition. CD is nothing more than a list of symptoms. maybe the "Crohn's Disease" in the mouth and throat has nothing to do with the one in the lower bowel. the only connection is inflammation and sores. Ulcers, once thought to be autoimmune, are now known to be caused by a bacteria. it tool more than 40 years to "prove" that. A Dr. Mason in Edmonton has recently proven that a type of Cirrhosis, once thought to be auto-immune is actually caused by a virus. he is developing a retrovirus to fight the condition. my son never responded to immunosuppressants which makes me question the auto-immune thing with him.

snohare
Veteran Member


Date Joined Oct 2004
Total Posts : 2088
   Posted 2/5/2010 8:10 AM (GMT -7)   
I am convinced that MAP is implicated in Crohns, but ironically enough I agree with those who are not, I actually wouldn't worry too much about milk products on that basis.
First of all, like everything else in biology it is a numbers thing. MAP is not very good at infecting humans, or it would be found in everyone, CD patients or not. Since it is not, and since if it is a causative agent in CD the most active form is lurking in the macrophages already, unless you get milk that contains very high numbers of the bacteria the additional overall effect is likely to be zero. Theoretically what happens when you pool the milk from 500 or more healthy cattle with that from a couple of MAP infected animals is that you bring the risk from high for a very limited number of people drinking milk from infected animals, to very low but present for a much higher number of persons; so given enough time and the presence of more of hosts with the right genes, many more people are likely to become infected.
Look at the proteins in different forms of milk however and you suddenly realise that cow's milk is very unnatural food for humans. Think of it this way - our bodies are adapted to human breast milk, and it is designed in effect to be good for small omnivores weighing several pounds and whose brains and immune systems develop for more than a decade. Cow's milk has only been available to humans for a tiny fraction of the time we have been here - how long before stone age man started catching and taming something like wild buffalo ? - and is designed for a herbivore with five stomachs and an IQ that is barely measurable, which reproduces at the age of two years. There is no doubt that many many humans, far more than are ever affected by MAP, have adverse immune system responses to the proteins in cow's milk. Goat's milk is designed for a much smaller, very indiscriminate omnivore (which may be the reason the proteins are more like ours), which has probably been co-evolving with humans for longer, and it is known in some crucial ways the proteins are very different to cows milk in terms of the immune response they provoke. (Not kidding here, fruitgirl ! wink) Lactose is the least of the problems. ( A side issue here is there is a theory that our modern higher incidence of CD is related to a particular genetic variant of cows milk, found more recently in the Western world but not in older breeds as found in Africa. This makes sense if cows were first tamed in Africa - evolution has had more time to screen out disease-prone hosts. )
Interestingly, when a young boy my father found cow's milk was making him ill. The medical treatment in the 30s ? Get a goat and give him goat's milk for a couple of years...he has never had problems since, even with cow's milk products.
So never mind MAP or Crohns, why use cows milk anyway ? If it wasn't so common, we just wouldn't, it is so firmly associated with so many things like asthma, eczema, psiorasis, etc. Like soya, it is a food that where the producers have got together and invented ways of using it, with their only aim being increased output and profits; safety is not their professional concern, except where it impinges on sales. The idea that the calcium in it is good for you is a marketing myth too - it is there, but not easily available to humans, although convincing most folk of that is about as easy as dispelling the myth that Chinese have been drinking soya milk daily for 3000 years. (Fermented because it was so indigestible, in famines or as medicine only.)
As far as taking 40 years to prove MAP is a causative agent - Crohns is a 20th century malady, really only noticed in 1938. TB was been around for 2000 years, infecting and usually killing 1 in 12 of the population nono but how long did it take to prove the causative agent there, even once Koch and his genius friends invented microbiology ?
Right until the 40s, there was a debate about the cause of TB that was uncannily similar to that on Crohns. That may just be typical of any high-profile disease of course, but it may be indicative of hidden similarities in the topic in question.
If it takes 16 months to produce a new generation of your research subject in a laboratory, it fairly cramps your style, and hinders what questions may be investigated. What takes E. coli researchers a day with replication every 20 minutes, would take decades at that rate. eyes
I wouldn't say the jury is out, we don't even have all the evidence yet for a prosecution - but we have at least one good suspect to question. yeah

MoobyDoo
Regular Member


Date Joined Sep 2009
Total Posts : 212
   Posted 2/5/2010 9:04 AM (GMT -7)   

Snohare - Wow great post.

Rider - I agree with you. I have always thought of cow dairy as a possible culprit for GI issues.

Strange thing is, my daughter with Crohn's has never ever liked milk. Not even as a baby. Never drank a glass in her 9 years.  Some ice cream tho, some cheese (think pizza and kraft EZ mac if you can consider that cheese), some yogurt...but never alot of these things as they weren't her fave.  If this were a MAP infection, wouldn't someone who consumes a lot of dairy be much much more likely to have Crohn's than a kid like mine, diagnosed at age 8, with very limited dairy in those 8 years?

Sickandlucky - Great idea! I'm gonna go get some almond milk for her to try. Why didn't I think of that myself? Will the NUT factor in that hurt? I know nuts are a Crohn's no-no.

 



  • snohare
    Veteran Member


    Date Joined Oct 2004
    Total Posts : 2088
       Posted 2/5/2010 9:59 AM (GMT -7)   
    Mooby Doo said...
    If this were a MAP infection, wouldn't someone who consumes a lot of dairy be much much more likely to have Crohn's than a kid like mine, diagnosed at age 8, with very limited dairy in those 8 years?


    yeah An excellent question Mooby Doo, to which the answer has to be "Possibly, but not necessarily". Maybe she was exposed to one of those plasmids (genetic toolkits - little loops of DNA) that bacteria swap so promiscuously between species and even genera; and it causes disease in humans wherever they come in contact with it, not just in MAP. Or maybe MAP in groundwater was responsible.
    If you read this week's New Scientist magazine, you will see that it now appears there is a whole different system of horizontal evolution going on besides Darwin's "survival of the fittest" vertical natural selection - and it is hottest in bacteria. To give you some idea - imagine that soldiers on a battlefield can pick up any weapon used on that battlefield, instead of having to go back to base to re-arm with whatever they have there. That is plasmids. yeah

    MoobyDoo
    Regular Member


    Date Joined Sep 2009
    Total Posts : 212
       Posted 2/5/2010 11:29 AM (GMT -7)   
    Well I can assure you that I do not read New Scientist magazine, but thanks for the layman's translation. Sadly... I needed that. blush

  • EMom
    Veteran Member


    Date Joined Aug 2007
    Total Posts : 990
       Posted 2/5/2010 11:33 AM (GMT -7)   
    Also, MAP has been found in municipal water supplies and ground water.

    And Moobydoo, does your daughter ever eat cheese or ice cream? Oh...just re-read your post.... blush So my little rant in my previous post about processed cheeses and "milk product" (milk product is in most ice creams and processed cheeses) has a back-story:

    Two years ago I met a woman who is a bio-chemist for a major ice cream manufacturer in Canada. She is responsible, among other things, for quality control of their product (a MAJOR ice cream brand name that you would all recognize, and a lesser brand name, as well). She said that Canada, in general, routinely REFUSES imported "milk product" because of its questionable sources and contents. Guess where it goes... uh... right here to the US, according to her. She warned me to never eat anything that says "milk product" or similar wording. I'm guessing Kraft EZ mac is an offender...I know Velveeta is, and my son LOVED that stuff! shakehead (He never drank milk, either.)

    Interestingly, she added that these are steps their government has taken to try to combat MAP; just as in the UK they only have UHT milk now. Canada, last I knew, has a higher per capita incidence of Crohn's and other IBDs than the US. Maybe not for long though, if we keep accepting their cast-offs. skull

    And the only thing I'd add to snohare's excellent point.... :

    "Theoretically what happens when you pool the milk from 500 or more healthy cattle with that from a couple of MAP infected animals is that you bring the risk from high for a very limited number of people drinking milk from infected animals, to very low but present for a much higher number of persons; so given enough time and the presence of more of hosts with the right genes, many more people are likely to become infected."

    ....is that I believe a person can be MADE MORE SUSCEPTIBLE through POOR DIET (not enough real, whole foods, too much processed stuff), illness and/or use of antibiotics. I think of the gut with these trillions of little good-guy combatants trying their very best to keep us healthy. But if we do something to upset the balance...then look out! Antibiotics kill the good with the bad. Poor diet does nothing to replenish the good-guys, and unfortunately it feeds the bad-guys.
    Mom to 17 year old son diagnosed in June, 2007.
    Omega 3s, digestive enzymes, probiotics, vit. C, calcium, vit. D3, a good multivitamin and SCD legal yogurt
    Started The Maker's Diet in Sept. '07. Incorporate Specific Carbohydrate Diet (SCD) recipes, too. Med-free.
    http://www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=17&m=984588
    http://www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=17&m=1533705
    http://www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=17&p=1&m=1262312


    vixen
    Veteran Member


    Date Joined Jan 2010
    Total Posts : 794
       Posted 2/5/2010 12:32 PM (GMT -7)   
    What a can of worms :)
    I guess if we realised what actually was involved in the majority of farming (both with livestock and crops) antibiotics, fattening agents, pesticides etc and in the manufacturing side of food products(added salt, suger and chemicals etc) in a bid for increased prductivity/cheap prices we would never eat again! So often I have spoken to people who have a relative who works in/with food (inspectors and the like) who simply will not ever eat the products that they inspect. What does that tell you! A few years ago my mother-in-law gave me a little booklet that lists chemicals/agents that are used in food production and alongside it there was also a list of non-food products that the same chemicals were used in. One example I can clearly remember is an ingredient used in ice-cream (not the proper stuff) but the cheaper supermarket types is also used in paint thinners!!! Alot of chemicals used in foods are classed as carcinogenic, no wonder the 'modern' world has so many health difficulties. I guess it is all down to choice (and knowledge)and if the budget allows you to spend more on organic, free range etc etc.
    Emom. Here in the UK we don't only have UHT milk(or You Hate This Milk) as my husband refers to it. It is widely available in the supermarkets along with rice/soya and goodness knows what other sorts of milk-at a premium price of course!!

    vixen
    Veteran Member


    Date Joined Jan 2010
    Total Posts : 794
       Posted 2/5/2010 12:53 PM (GMT -7)   
    Maybe not Crohn's, but it is frightening when you start delving in to it all

    artist guy
    Veteran Member


    Date Joined Jan 2010
    Total Posts : 1373
       Posted 2/5/2010 4:31 PM (GMT -7)   
    goes back to doc. food inc. but you know if drink iced coffe drinks like mocha frapps, they use carnuba wax in those things. If memory serves me i wax my car with that stuff. YUK!!!

    artist guy

    New Topic Post Reply Printable Version
    Forum Information
    Currently it is Monday, December 05, 2016 7:33 AM (GMT -7)
    There are a total of 2,732,928 posts in 301,069 threads.
    View Active Threads


    Who's Online
    This forum has 151224 registered members. Please welcome our newest member, alexben667.
    328 Guest(s), 13 Registered Member(s) are currently online.  Details
    Tagier, 81GyGuy, jkingfrt, Rikky1, tickbite666, Serenity Now, sararaewald, steveinErie, fibrocushie, eat2bwell, Nosila, straydog, LanieG


    Follow HealingWell.com on Facebook  Follow HealingWell.com on Twitter  Follow HealingWell.com on Pinterest
    Advertisement
    Advertisement

    ©1996-2016 HealingWell.com LLC  All rights reserved.

    Advertise | Privacy Policy & Disclaimer