50% with CD may also have IBS

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GDen
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   Posted 6/8/2010 9:58 PM (GMT -7)   
In Sunanda Kane's new IBD book she states that studies show as many as half of Crohn's patients may also have IBS. That's the first I've heard of that. Seems like they have a lot of overlapping symptoms -- how would you tell if you also have IBS?
Cimzia, Asacol


Nanners
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   Posted 6/9/2010 8:32 AM (GMT -7)   
I have IBS too! I can tell my Crohns and IBS apart. The Ibs is easier for me to control. I suffer with more constipation with my Crohns. If I eat the wrong thing or too much stress my IBS acts up and I get more diarrhea. I use my Librax and it stops the cramps and d right away for me. I have actually been home the past two days becuz of some antibiotics I was taking for bacterial overgrowth triggered an IBS flare. Just barely starting to feel better after a soup and toast diet and rest.
Gail*Nanners* Co-Moderator for Crohns Disease 
Crohn's Disease for over 34 years. Currently on Asacol, Prilosec, Estrace, Prinivil, Diltiazem, Percoset prn for pain, Zofran, Phenergan, Probiotics, Calcium, Vit D, and Xanax prn. Resections in 2002 & 2005. Also diagnosed w/ Fibromyalgia, Osteoarthritis, & Anxiety. Currently my Crohns is in remission, but my joints are going crazy!
*Every tomorrow has two handles.  We can take hold of it by the handle of anxiety, or by the handle of faith"*

tsitodawg
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   Posted 6/10/2010 12:19 AM (GMT -7)   
I have both and I would think that the number is probably even higher than 50%. I think that it has been recognized more the last 2-3 years about both diseases being found in patients and will be diagnosed more in the future.

Jen77
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   Posted 6/10/2010 1:45 AM (GMT -7)   
I'm not sure how one would know if they IBS too. Isn't the diagnosis of IBS basically when they have ruled out all other diseases? If they've found Crohn's, I'd have a hard time believing it's IBS too. Unless they can tell me 100% for certain I don't have a flare up going on somewhere in that LONG small intestines of mine (that they can't see all of).
 
The whole IBS diagnosis annoys me though, because that was the first thing most doctors jumped to before I got my Crohn's diagnosis. To me it's become a staple of "I have no clue what you really have, so we'll just call it IBS". Or in a Crohn's patient perhaps "Can't see an area of flare up, so must be IBS!" Maybe I'm wrong, but it just seems like they are quick to label everything as IBS, and many of us go without treatment we need.
 
Most Crohn's patients will tell you that even in remission, that doesn't mean they are symptom free. I don't know, when I have my bad days I don't look to thinking it's IBS. I just believe it's the Crohn's waving "hi".
~Jennifer
 
Diagnosed with Crohn's Disease 2/06, and Health Anxiety/OCD 12/08 Taking Asacol, Questran, Toprol XL, and Celexa.


GDen
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   Posted 6/10/2010 1:56 AM (GMT -7)   
I dunno. Here's a chart:

ibdcrohns.about.com/cs/ibs/a/diffibsibd.htm

It says IBS has alternating diarrhea/constipation whereas Crohns has persistent diarrhea.
Cimzia, Asacol


CrohnieToo
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   Posted 6/10/2010 4:52 AM (GMT -7)   
Horsepuckies! I have Crohn's. It was in remission or symptomatic remission for 20 years after a resection for a full obstruction. Diarrhea has NEVER been a problem for me whether the disease was active or not. We've found via Ceretec WBC scan that even when I had no symptoms I had Crohn's disease activity going on, active inflammation in the small intestine. My gastro was INSISTING I was in full remission w/NO disease activity until I convinced her to order the WBC scan for Crohn's activity. No one will EVER convince me that if I have Crohn's disease my symptoms are IBS because my Crohn's isn't active!!! It makes sense ONLY in that active Crohn's can make for a very irritable intestine, and who or what wouldn't be irritable when being attacked and mutilated by disease? If you have Crohn's disease and are having symptoms then there is Crohn's disease activity going on whether the physicians can find it or not.
 
Hell's belles, how many crohnies have gone several years w/all the symptoms of Crohn's disease but the physicians couldn't find and Dx it? Thank goodness the pill camera can now find it a lot sooner. I would NEVER accept a Dx of IBS w/o INSISTING on a PCE. AND a Ceretec WBC scan. And ANY physician who tried to tell me that there can be inflammation w/IBS would be dumped in a flash.


My computer says I need to upgrade my brain to be compatible with its new software.

Post Edited (CrohnieToo) : 6/10/2010 5:57:36 AM (GMT-6)


NiceCupOfTea
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   Posted 6/10/2010 6:32 AM (GMT -7)   
Horsepuckies indeed. The only way I'm accepting a diagnosis of IBS is if every test under the sun shows I'm free of Crohn's, otherwise as far as I'm concerned it's the Crohn's and nothing else. I never had a day's worth of diarrhoea before the day my Crohn's started. Had a perfectly good digestion. Used to have bad constipation as a child and teenager, but that was down to a rubbish diet >_<. Once I learnt to eat fruit and veggies, the constipation disappeared for good and I had five happy years of going to the toilet regularly, with no constipation or diarrhoea, just like a normal person.

I also think the diagnosis of IBS is given out way too readily, although that is a slightly different issue. I just can't help feeling that I was very lucky to have not been fobbed off with an IBS diagnosis, when I read about what a lot of people have gone through before getting an IBD diagnosis.

Rider Fan
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   Posted 6/10/2010 7:29 AM (GMT -7)   
I've almost never had diarrhea, yet I've always battled anemia and weight loss. So I have to strongly disagree with any article that says Crohn's is 'consistent diarrea'.

I'm also thankful that I had a good GP and GI to get me a speedy diagnosis of CD.
33 y/o male. Dx'ed in 1999. No surgeries.

Current meds: Humira 2/27/09. Proferrin iron pills.

Reduced gluten and dairy.


Go Saskatchewan Roughriders!


CrohnieToo
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   Posted 6/10/2010 8:54 AM (GMT -7)   
My gastro tried ONCE to tell me I had IBS when she couldn't find Crohn's via colonoscopy. Duh!

My Crohn's at the time was in the mid-ileum, not the TI, not the cecum, not the colon. We KNEW my Crohn's resection site was mid-ileum, not the TI, not the cecum, not the colon. So because she couldn't find Crohn's in the TI or the colon via colonoscopy, my symptoms weren't Crohn's but rather IBS???? Gimme a break!!!
My computer says I need to upgrade my brain to be compatible with its new software.


Mormor Vicky
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   Posted 6/10/2010 7:32 PM (GMT -7)   
I think you can have both but I don't think a doctor can determine if it's IBS or Crohn's just because you are supposedly in remission. My doctor does that thinking that it can't be Crohn's because the colonoscopy didn't show it. Right after I lost half my colon to this disease I felt better then I had ever felt in decades. Because I lived with Crohn's/IBS for years without knowing I knew the difference immediately. I'm more aware and keep track of bowel movements now. "d" versus "c". My flares come on so gradually that I have to really pay attention or I'll think it's just my IBS.
Started having issues with the Big "D" at age 19.  Doctor said Lactose Intolerance
Daugher diagnosed when she was 12 and I was 33.
My doctor said I had IBS.
 
8-2006    Emergency resection for fistula to bladder at the age of 47.
"Oh, it is Crohn's"     Dah!!!!
 
11-2006   Reaction to 6mp - isolation with bone marrow suppression and found out I had steriod induced diabetes.  Yeah!!!
4000mg of Pentasa only for Crohn's
Cymbalta, Metformin, Lipitor, Lisinopril
 
Update.  6-10-2010  Started remicade today.


GDen
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   Posted 6/10/2010 8:19 PM (GMT -7)   
I asked my gastro and he said if there's no inflammation but there's still diarrhea, then it's time to start thinking about IBS and possibly using anti-spasmodic drugs, etc.
Cimzia, Asacol


grumpygi
Regular Member


Date Joined May 2010
Total Posts : 266
   Posted 6/10/2010 8:45 PM (GMT -7)   
Well , in my fuzzy way of seeing life- I think the docs have one out of three words correct in this suckie disease . . . .irritable.
newby

Post Edited (grumpygi) : 6/10/2010 10:10:30 PM (GMT-6)


GDen
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Date Joined May 2009
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   Posted 6/10/2010 9:20 PM (GMT -7)   
Well, speak of the devil.

blogs.alternet.org/refugee/2010/06/09/map-and-irritable-bowel-syndrome-a-major-public-health-problem/

Somebody said...
Research Linking IBS and Crohn’s

New evidence (related to DNA fingerprinting technology) suggests that IBS may actually be a mild, early form of Crohn’s – that eventually progresses to Crohn’s in later life. This hypthesis is based on three separate lines of research

I've seen this blog before and think it's pretty fringe.
Cimzia, Asacol


Jen77
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Date Joined Mar 2006
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   Posted 6/11/2010 12:25 AM (GMT -7)   
I asked my gastro and he said if there's no inflammation but there's still diarrhea, then it's time to start thinking about IBS and possibly using anti-spasmodic drugs, etc. said...

That's my point though. How can they say for certain that there is NO inflammation anywhere? Crohn's can be from the mouth to the anus. And unforutnately most depend on just colonoscopy alone. That wouldn't cut it for me. There is too much digestive tract that can't be seen for them to say it's free and clear of inflammation. Honestly if another doctor tells me it's IBS, I switch doctors. Because I have Crohn's, not IBS.
 
As far as that link you posted, I'm sure that's the case. But more likely it was always Crohn's for those patients, but they were just getting the typical IBS label when the doctors couldn't dx it.


~Jennifer
 
Diagnosed with Crohn's Disease 2/06, and Health Anxiety/OCD 12/08 Taking Asacol, Questran, Toprol XL, and Celexa.

Post Edited (Jen77) : 6/11/2010 1:28:43 AM (GMT-6)


GDen
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   Posted 6/11/2010 12:43 AM (GMT -7)   
Can't they see inflammation with BFT? Then there's endoscopes...
Cimzia, Asacol


CrohnieToo
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   Posted 6/11/2010 6:55 AM (GMT -7)   
Once I've been definitely Dx'd w/Crohn's disease they can stick their IBS Dx where the sun don't shine!!!

Just because they can't find it on occasion does NOT mean it is not there!!! If you have Crohn's, you have Crohn's, NOT IBS!

There is TRUE Crohn's remission, and then there is SYMPTOMATIC remission where the disease is still active but not causing symptoms and there can be Crohn's activity flares but the doctors and their precious tests just can't find it. NO MEDICAL TEST OR PROCEDURE IS INFALLIBLE!

As mentioned above my gastro ONCE tried to tell me my Crohn's was not active, that my mild symptoms were IBS based on her scope and a SBFT. I knew darn well she was wrong. In less than a month I was at Mayo Clinic, MN, and THEIR SBFT proved my Crohn's was active.
My computer says I need to upgrade my brain to be compatible with its new software.


Nanners
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Date Joined Apr 2005
Total Posts : 14995
   Posted 6/11/2010 11:22 AM (GMT -7)   
Personally I think the IBS attacks I do have are because of my surgeries and becuz I digest differently. You all can say horse puckies, but I do believe I personally do have a touch of IBS too along with my Crohns. As I said before if I eat the wrong thing or too much stress it triggers a IBS attack that gets better with my Librax and rest. And these attacks usually only last a day or two. To me that IS NOT a flare. JMHO
Gail*Nanners* Co-Moderator for Crohns Disease 
Crohn's Disease for over 34 years. Currently on Asacol, Prilosec, Estrace, Prinivil, Diltiazem, Percoset prn for pain, Zofran, Phenergan, Probiotics, Calcium, Vit D, and Xanax prn. Resections in 2002 & 2005. Also diagnosed w/ Fibromyalgia, Osteoarthritis, & Anxiety. Currently my Crohns is in remission, but my joints are going crazy!
*Every tomorrow has two handles.  We can take hold of it by the handle of anxiety, or by the handle of faith"*

Jen77
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Date Joined Mar 2006
Total Posts : 2690
   Posted 6/11/2010 4:28 PM (GMT -7)   
The BFT are useless on me. The way my intestines wind up they couldn't see a thing where I had my inflammation. I had a barium enema done before my Crohn's diagnosis, and they found nothing. It wasn't until I was bleeding to death, with really bad ucleration that they finally found it on a scope. Had it been higher up where they scopes don't reach then it's IBS? That's what is wrong with just basing everything on colonoscopies (and considering the length of the small intestines endoscopies aren't much help either). Just because their tests don't reach, doesn't make it not there.

I think it's the very lucky few that have a completely symptom free remission. Most of us will have some kind of reminders that Crohn's is still there, may not be in a massive flare, but it's there. Since there really is no real test for IBS (just the simple ruling out of real disease), there isn't a doctor alive that could convince me that's all it is now. IBS has become way too much of an easy out for them.


~Jennifer
 
Diagnosed with Crohn's Disease 2/06, and Health Anxiety/OCD 12/08 Taking Asacol, Questran, Toprol XL, and Celexa.


NiceCupOfTea
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Date Joined Jan 2010
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   Posted 6/11/2010 6:05 PM (GMT -7)   
I certainly don't think it's impossible for IBD and IBS to exist concurrently and I'm sure it does in some people. I just take exception to meaningless, impossible-to-prove statistics such as 50% of people with CD may have IBS. How on earth could anyone have any idea? Even when Crohn's is in remission, as others have pointed out, there can still be overlooked inflammation somewhere causing symptoms. Overlooked disease isn't a rare event either, as those who have had enormous troubles getting diagnosed in the first place have found out.

Also, I agree with Jen77's last paragraph. A lot of people who go into remission do report continuing symptoms. Obviously minor ones, but they're there. And I really strongly doubt it's IBS in the majority of cases. I think once you get IBD, it's a highly tenacious disease and does not go away willingly - I've learnt that much!

pb4
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Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 20576
   Posted 6/11/2010 7:05 PM (GMT -7)   
I have CD and IBS as well, I developed my IBS about 7 yrs ago, as my GI explained it (one of the top lead researchers for crohn's and colitis in Canada) that especially for CDers (or even UCers) that have more severe IBD and/or prolonged flares, the more common for them to develop IBS as well, so it doesn't necessarily happen to all IBDers....and it doesn't necessarily only happen to those that have more IBD severity as well, it's just the chances go up for that particular group.
bee propolis caps 500mg one cap twice/day
omegas 369 caps one cap twice/day
probiotics 10 billion cfu once/day
vitamins C-calcium ascorbate (easy on the gut) and vitamin A each once/day
Prodiem fibre supplement one cap before bed
I've also altered my diet (no junky stuff at all, processed, fast-foods, refined sugars, ect) and exercise regularly.
I went from 30+ bloody BM's/day with lots of lower back pain to an average of 5/day no bleeding no back pain and completely formed stools, still have severe urgency issues.
~~~~~~~~My bum is broken....there's a big crack down the middle of it! LOL :)~~~~~~~~


NiceCupOfTea
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Date Joined Jan 2010
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   Posted 6/11/2010 7:33 PM (GMT -7)   
Or, alternatively, severe IBD could be less likely to go into full remission, thus continuing symptoms...

My GI basically told me to expect symptoms [on the 6MP]. So no matter what I report back with, she won't be giving me an IBS diagnosis, I guess!
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