Home fecal transplant for SIBO?

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Fred Tirfry
New Member


Date Joined Sep 2010
Total Posts : 1
   Posted 9/12/2010 8:45 PM (GMT -7)   
I first have to say that whatever I have is not officially diagnostically because all the doctors I have seen have been looking at the wrong places and giving wrong advice.

I've been dealing with the problem for years now and used to complain of constant fatigue, allergies, flu-like symptoms and migraines that all went away when I cut cheeses, yogurt and other fermented foods from my diet. Months later though, my digestion had become a mess and I slowly lost a tremendous amount of weight. What I found out is that fermented products kept me from getting sicker, but gave me those strong detox symptoms all the time.

Since that time, I've cleaned up my diet (no grains, no dairy, no sugar, mostly a paleo/SCD diet) and introduced probiotics. It seems though that now that the problem got the chance to become worse the probiotics don't do their job, even in huge amount.

I decided to try a much higher potency probiotic, VSL#3, but it made it worse, so I recalled that bifidum is not recommended on the SCD, so I cut probiotics with bifidum and now only take acidophilus from custom probiotics and finally see some of those good old detox symptoms, but only with super high doses and only marginally to what I use to feel. Bifidus causing problems seems to indicate that my problem is SIBO and colon strains are overgrowing in my small intestine, perhaps because of too few good bacteria is there to keep things in check.

Considering that acidophilus might just be a plaster for the real underlining problem, I've became interested in fecal transplant, which seem to have the potential to really heal the gut flora problem. I don't have the means, time or energy to travel across the country to find a doctor that will do that, but I'm ready to try it at home after reading good results from some people. Looks quite safe, although I am aware that the donor has to be really healthy.

Since whatever is plaguing me seems to be related to the small intestine, I would imagine that it would be wiser to get the fecal matter orally so the bacteria can get active in the small intestine. What I'm wondering though is if I can get the same problem I got from bifidus where bacteria normally resident to the colon could implement in the small intestine and cause problems.

I've looked left and right on the Internet and can't find anything related to fecal transplantation and SIBO specifically. Very few people recommend against bifidus so it's no wonder that the problem is not well recognized.

So I guess my question in the end is to know if fecal transplant could further aggravate small bowel bacterial imbalance by letting bacteria normally present in the colon colonize the small intestine. I would imagine that in any given sample of feces there would be much more bacteria from the colon than from the small intestine.

Thanks for any help.

rlsnights
Regular Member


Date Joined Apr 2006
Total Posts : 449
   Posted 9/13/2010 12:15 AM (GMT -7)   
150% agree with tsitodawg.

Have you asked your gi to test you for SIBO? If not, you need to.
son now 14 1/2, dx CD age 10; current meds: MTX and omeprazole; previous tmts: pred, 6-MP, Humira, entocort, GMCS, exclusive enteral feeds, pentasa, mesalamine enemas, cipro, flagyl, many topical treatments for perianal disease

Nanners
Elite Member


Date Joined Apr 2005
Total Posts : 14995
   Posted 9/13/2010 6:52 AM (GMT -7)   
I think your idea is very dangerous. Tsitodawg is right the fecal transplants need to be done by medical professionals. Due to having Crohns for so long and the surgeries I have had, I get SIBO's at least twice a year, and 10 days of Cipro have always cleared it right up. Of course, I always take a good probiotic two hours after my last antibiotic for the day. Good luck!
Gail*Nanners* Co-Moderator for Crohns Disease 
Crohn's Disease for over 34 years. Currently on Asacol, Prilosec, Estrace, Prinivil, Diltiazem, Percoset prn for pain, Zofran, Phenergan, Probiotics, Calcium, Vit D, and Xanax prn. Resections in 2002 & 2005. Also diagnosed w/ Fibromyalgia, Osteoarthritis, & Anxiety. Currently my Crohns is in remission, but my joints are going crazy!
*Every tomorrow has two handles.  We can take hold of it by the handle of anxiety, or by the handle of faith"*

peter j
Regular Member


Date Joined Mar 2007
Total Posts : 126
   Posted 6/24/2011 2:59 PM (GMT -7)   
First, I am a patient, not a doctor. Just to make that clear.

Fred Tirfry said...
I first have to say that whatever I have is not officially diagnostically because all the doctors I have seen have been looking at the wrong places and giving wrong advice.


Been there...

Fred Tirfry said...
I've been dealing with the problem for years now and used to complain of constant fatigue, allergies, flu-like symptoms and migraines that all went away when I cut cheeses, yogurt and other fermented foods from my diet. Months later though, my digestion had become a mess and I slowly lost a tremendous amount of weight. What I found out is that fermented products kept me from getting sicker, but gave me those strong detox symptoms all the time.

Since that time, I've cleaned up my diet (no grains, no dairy, no sugar, mostly a paleo/SCD diet) and introduced probiotics. It seems though that now that the problem got the chance to become worse the probiotics don't do their job, even in huge amount.


Sounds like small bowel involvement. And your symptoms could very much fall in line with Fibromyalgia. One study showed all of them had SIBO...

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15020342

Fred Tirfry said...
I decided to try a much higher potency probiotic, VSL#3, but it made it worse, so I recalled that bifidum is not recommended on the SCD, so I cut probiotics with bifidum and now only take acidophilus from custom probiotics and finally see some of those good old detox symptoms, but only with super high doses and only marginally to what I use to feel. Bifidus causing problems seems to indicate that my problem is SIBO and colon strains are overgrowing in my small intestine, perhaps because of too few good bacteria is there to keep things in check.

Same happened with me. Got worse from VSL#3. Not all that much worse, but worse. It's weird, and could suggest a problem with the intestines.

Fred Tirfry said...
Considering that acidophilus might just be a plaster for the real underlining problem, I've became interested in fecal transplant, which seem to have the potential to really heal the gut flora problem. I don't have the means, time or energy to travel across the country to find a doctor that will do that, but I'm ready to try it at home after reading good results from some people. Looks quite safe, although I am aware that the donor has to be really healthy.

Since whatever is plaguing me seems to be related to the small intestine, I would imagine that it would be wiser to get the fecal matter orally so the bacteria can get active in the small intestine. What I'm wondering though is if I can get the same problem I got from bifidus where bacteria normally resident to the colon could implement in the small intestine and cause problems.


Doctors, such as Silverman, suggest that patients should do the fecal transplant themselves:
http://www.wdh-dam.nl/uploads/bijlage%20W.%20de%20Boer.pdf

But when it should be done into the small intestines, it is transferred via a nasogastric tube.
http://cid.oxfordjournals.org/content/36/5/580.short
It would be best to get help from a nurse to put it in (it's a little bothersome/tricky).

Fred Tirfry said...
I've looked left and right on the Internet and can't find anything related to fecal transplantation and SIBO specifically. Very few people recommend against bifidus so it's no wonder that the problem is not well recognized.

So I guess my question in the end is to know if fecal transplant could further aggravate small bowel bacterial imbalance by letting bacteria normally present in the colon colonize the small intestine. I would imagine that in any given sample of feces there would be much more bacteria from the colon than from the small intestine.

Thanks for any help.


They do the procedure it someone have a clostridum difficile infection. It cures the infection (in over 90% of the cases), and is relatively safe.


tsitodawg said...
What you are talking about doing is very dangerous and potentially lifethreatening.

That is an overstatement. It's done for things such as antibiotic resistant clostridum difficile. As long as the donor is healthy, and screened for pathogens, it's relatively safe...

tsitodawg said...
To ingest another person's fecal is not how a fecal implant is done. There are certain precautions and medical preparations that need to take place in a sterile enviroment by people trained to do this procedure.

It's done with a nasogastric tube (a tube inserted via the nose to the stomach). In many cases it is done outside the hospital, because the doctor insists on it...

It's no brain science. It's just to mix (with a blender) the feces with sterile saline, send it through a sieve, and infuse it. But you would need a nurse to do the infusion, and you would need a doctor who knows what you are doing and have done lab tests on the donor beforehand.

peter j
Regular Member


Date Joined Mar 2007
Total Posts : 126
   Posted 6/24/2011 3:03 PM (GMT -7)   
Here you can see a interview speaking of how it have had an effect on Crohn's
www.youtube.com/watch?v=crm4pKz6X2M
Just to make it clear, the person being interviewed is very clear on that this is still avant garde science. It's not proved. But it has worked on some people. Larger trials haven't been done yet.

BeeSting
Regular Member


Date Joined Nov 2008
Total Posts : 392
   Posted 6/25/2011 1:10 AM (GMT -7)   
Try a combination of your diet and LDN (low dose naltrexone) and Saccharomyces boulardii.

SCD:
www.pecanbread.com
www.scdiet.org
Saccharomyces Boulardii:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saccharomyces_boulardii
LDN:
www.ldnscience.org
www.youtube.com
search at youtube for naltrexone
My Crohn's disease is located in jejunum/ileum, which is called jejunoileitis. We're just a few with this type.
Diagnosed 07. Started june/07 with prednisone, continued in sept/07 with LDN, Low Dose Naltrexone.
Combines LDN with a Low Dose Prednisone (from 10 mg and down), just for some weeks if flaring.

1/4 of what you eat keeps you alive, 3/4 of what you eat keeps your doctors alive!! ;-)

tankor
Regular Member


Date Joined Aug 2010
Total Posts : 121
   Posted 6/25/2011 5:14 PM (GMT -7)   
I couldn't DISAGREE more with the previous posters.

Why do they say what you suggest is very dangerous?
Do they have prove of this?

Is it because stool is unpleasant you think its very dangerous.
Yet somehow taking antibiotics by the doctors you see such as vancomycin
isn't dangerous? Yes stool is icky & such, but you have no proof that its dangerous.
Show me one such case of someone injesting stool and dangerous bad side effects and I will
admit I am wrong.

Animals eat feces in the wild all the time Coprophagia. No harm is caused to them. When the
doctors perform stool transplants in Australia they deposit stool directly into the small intestine
by gastro tube, & again no harm is caused. In fact review every single stool transplant case &
show me 1 case where dangerous side effects occur.

This is exactly the responses that have caused an extremely effective treatment from being further
studied in other countries than Australia. Just because stool is unpleasant, everyone assumes it dangerous
despite no such cases showing this to be true.

To the original poster. I've talked with Australia personally. The information I've gathered is as follows.
The small intestine is relatively sterile compared to the large intestine. You are better off implanting
in the large intestine by enema. Then hoping that the necessary bacteria spreads to the small intestine.
As I said the large has 10 times the number of bacteria as the small. about injesting stool, my knowledge is
that you would have to drink tons of water to wash it through the stomach acid. I do agree, before you
undertake either method, try & talk to the doctors who have performed it.

However don't listen to this forum people who claim things as dangerous without anything to back up their
claims. Your on the right track !!

Get a stool analysis done and find out what state your flora is in. Also remember me & stay in touch with
me, I have spoken to the pioneers who have performed this, and tracked all cases of this. In fact I am in
this forum now just looking for fecal transplant crohn's cases to track them as well, even though I have
a different intestinal disorder. Good luck to you

Nanners
Elite Member


Date Joined Apr 2005
Total Posts : 14995
   Posted 6/26/2011 7:49 AM (GMT -7)   
You guys realize this post is over a year old!!!!
Gail*Nanners* Co-Moderator for Crohns Disease
Crohn's Disease for over 35 years. Currently on Asacol, Protonix, Estrace, Prinivil, Diltiazem, Percoset prn for pain, Zofran, Phenergan, Probiotics, Calcium, Vit D, and Xanax prn. Resections in 2002 & 2005. Also diagnosed w/ Fibromyalgia, Osteoarthritis, & Anxiety. Currently my Crohns is in remission, but my joints are going crazy!

downgarden
Regular Member


Date Joined Jan 2010
Total Posts : 74
   Posted 6/26/2011 1:34 PM (GMT -7)   
Hey :)

To fix SIBO:
Digestion acid so that you dont feed them too big chunks.
Enzymes so that you can absorb the food in competition with the bacteria.
Colloidial silver home maid: 4-8 ounces a day on empty stomach.
Bicarbonate (almost baking soda but SCD legal): ****s up the PH for the bacteria. Dont take it with food since it reacts with the digestion acid.
Bromelain: pineapple enzym that breaks down protein, bacteria made up of protein. Take on empty stomach. (if you have oral thrush this is the MOST powerful, empty a capsule on the tongue and the thrush will be gone in 1 hour.)
Dont: eat any milk product, include butter. If take scd do not over consume max 1 cup a day.
Dont: eat food that are hard to digest, grind the nuts, boil the vegetables and then in a mixer.
Minimize carb, you have to go atleast below 50 carbs a day preferable 0.


(Im free from crohns symptoms since 4 months first going a zero carb first free now Im doin some 20 carbs a day)

This helped me, doesnt mean it will help you but if it does it will be fantastic! :)

pemenlove
New Member


Date Joined Apr 2013
Total Posts : 2
   Posted 4/4/2013 11:20 PM (GMT -7)   
Tankor: I am interested in doing the Fecal transplant. I am a registered nurse and I have a leaky gut syndrom and SBIO. I am having a hard time finding information on doing the transplant for leaky gut and SIBO. I work in internal medicine and we preform FT on pts with chrohns, UC and C-diff. The radiologist at my work is concerned for me to do it at home by placement of a NJ tube with some fellow Nurses....he is concerned about it entering the blood stream and causing a systemic infection and also does not know if the stool should be placed directly in the small bowel. I am doing it regardless. I am losing my patience... I can only tolerate two foods at this point. Cabbage and Beef..and everything else causes bloating and a systemic inflammation to joints and I swell up like a balloon. I am a professional rock climber and trail run like crazy and this disease stole my first years of my twenties from me and i am not giong to let it take anymore. Do you know much about the transplant straight to the small bowel or side effects??

Bengarama
New Member


Date Joined Apr 2013
Total Posts : 1
   Posted 4/5/2013 10:38 PM (GMT -7)   
tankor said...
I couldn't DISAGREE more with the previous posters.

Why do they say what you suggest is very dangerous?
Do they have prove of this?

Is it because stool is unpleasant you think its very dangerous.
Yet somehow taking antibiotics by the doctors you see such as vancomycin
isn't dangerous? Yes stool is icky & such, but you have no proof that its dangerous.
Show me one such case of someone injesting stool and dangerous bad side effects and I will
admit I am wrong.


This is a ridiculous statement, and if this thread wasn't already resurrected I'd leave well enough alone. I'll do one better and list common pathogens/diseases, transmitted by the fecal-oral route, that can make you deathly ill, if not kill you.
Giardiasis
Hepatitis A
Hepatitis E
Rotavirus
Shigellosis (bacillary dysentery)
Typhoid fever
Vibrio parahaemolyticus infections
Enteroviruses, including poliomyelitis
Cholera
Clostridium difficile
Cryptosporidiosis
Ascariasis

Not only that, but Helicobacter pylori can be transmitted this way as well, so you'll just add peptic ulcer disease to the list of frustrations you'll have to deal with.

For you, pemenlove, I definitely feel you. The doc is probably just worried about bowel perforation. Having an ostomy might be worse than what you're dealing with, although it may not be. Since our small bowels are way more sterile than our colons, it might do more harm then good (and there isn't a ton of evidence on the matter). Have you thought about trying the fecal enema first and seeing how that helps? There are plenty of home kits online for that. If your colon gets its bacterial growth a little healthier it might give your body the boost it needs to sort out the small bowel.
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