my wife is suffering on IBS from 9 years

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civilmonk
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Date Joined Jun 2010
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   Posted 6/5/2010 7:05 AM (GMT -7)   
Hello,
 
I'm from Poland. My wife (38 years old) is suffering from IBS for many years. We can't find help in our country becase our doctors didn't know well IBS. Most of them is sending us to psychiatrists... rest is giving antybiotics. So generally we need help. Maybe this forum will help. And sorrry for my english but I think it is maybe not gramatically correct but understandable.
 
I had read a lot of information about IBS and I would like to give you short description of my wife history and my current theory what we schould do. I'm interested what do you think about it.
 
So, 8 years ago, during holidays in Turkey, my wife has salmonella infection. It was cured very bad. Local doctor give us antibiotics for only two days. After returning to Poland infection attacked again. Very hard. After few weeks my wife was healed from salmonella but there was still new problems: pain and noises in bowel, mucus in loose stool. A lot of symptoms increased often few hours after eating.
 
So we started to heal this problem: doctors send us to psychiatrists so we go to china medicine doctors, we started acupunture and change wife's diet. It helped a lot but not to the end. Our chineese medicine doctor started to be helpless - he also didn't have such patient ever. In this time me wife started to eat a lot of millet and that whas the best "drug" for her in this time.
 
We started to searach for worms, tinea, also using alternative medicine tests. All of that for nothing. We also go to psychitrists finally - he give my wife xanax for two weeks. Nothing changed.
 
In that time there were different episodes: few months better, few months worse. One of the effect of this problems was low resitance and my wife was very often ill. During one of that illnes doctors give her antibiotic by injection. Injection becase we were afraid to give her antibiotcs as drugs becase of bowel problems.
 
And during injection of that antibiotis there was mirracle: very good stool, no pain, no noise in bowel. Unfortunatelly when injection was ended, all of those problems were back again. Maybe not so strong but again.
 
So we started to search for bacteria infection. We found very good laboratory and there was few findings as:
 
Escherichia coli / LOW
Enterococcus faecalis / LOW
Candida dubliniensis / MEDIUM
Staphylococcus aureus / MEDIUM
Staphylococcus epidermidis / LOW
Enterobacter cloacae / MEDIUM
 
But our doctor (very known professor, intenstine specialized) said to us that there is a lot of bacteria in bowel and it is imposible to identificate them all and remove bad ones.
 
During another illness (air passages) another antibiotic was given to my wife (azytromicin) and again mirracle. And now for few months! My wife started to eat normally... but after to many and to heavy eatings (but you propably understood that after few years of light food she want to eat something gooood) problems started again.
 
Durign another illness (air passages) doctor give her again azytromicin. And this time this wasn't good. Situation was very bad. My wife suffered by heaving pain and noise for 3 months. She lose weight every week. She feel like everything from her bowel is close to her mounth. Finally our profesor give her new medicine: xifaxan/rifaksimunum. Twice. And this helps a lot. But some problems still were here. We found new Institute in Poland, specialized in curing problems with overgrowth of bacteria and to low positive bacteria level in bowel ("dysbioza" in polish, i don't know and google translate also don't know this word in english :) ).
 
My wife started to eat some drops to rebuild her bacterial flora. Unfortunatelly, one time those drops was not clean and there was some tinea infection. My wife has takend strong anti-tinea drugs. It helped with tinea but again problems with bowel araise. We tried xifaxan/rifaksimunum again - with very little result. Stool has began to be green, loose and mucus. After few months we tried metronidazole. Situation was ever worse.
 
We tried xifaxan/rifaksimunum now. Stool is mucus & loose and still green. Noise in belly is reduced. But there is still pain on left side in upper belly.
 
This is our current situation and we not sure what to do next. And now theories.
 
My theory is that there is no infection but dysregulation of bacterial flora with episodes of overgrow to small bowel. And antibiotcs (including xifaxan/rifaksimunum) was helping with overgrowth but never helped to the end with dysregulation bacterial flora in bowel. So we need to regulate this flora. The best way is to use drops from our local Instistute and we have to use special diet: in the beginining with no remains and after that with low remains. No remains diet is diet with special medicine food: nutrica, ensure (used in other heavy instenstine problems).
 
My wife theory is simillar but she thinks that there is still need of removal overgrowth with some antibiotics becase she is resistant to xifaxan/rifaksimunum.
 
What do you think? I looking for your help.
 
Greetings
Jarek

Post Edited (civilmonk) : 6/5/2010 1:41:29 PM (GMT-6)


civilmonk
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Date Joined Jun 2010
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   Posted 6/5/2010 7:44 AM (GMT -7)   
And update:

there is one natural drug that is also helpfull: https://www.versandapo.de/en/10045/5106080/LUVOS-Heilerde-ultrafein.htm?lastActionId=4

This is sand (yes, sand). Clean sand. It reduces diarrhea and pain. One portion with water after every meal.

Jarek

shawn12
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Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1293
   Posted 6/5/2010 10:32 AM (GMT -7)   
There is a test to determine if someone might have small bowel bacterial overgrowth. A hydrogen breath test.
 
SIBO though is a different ccondition then IBS, although some people have both conditions.
 
In IBS taking antibiotics might help, because it kills all bacteria and the bacteria can cause gas and the gas pressure can cause pain and discomfort.
 
So its important to seperate the two conditions.
 
There is something called post infections IBS. You can get a gut infections, like the salmonella infection and when that clears, a person is left with basically IBS.
 
Post Infectious IBS
 
 
This is on the use of antidepressants and IBS
 
 
Sometimes for IBS they need to try different ones to see if they work.
 
This is on why they might want to send her to a therapist.
 
ASK THE EXPERTS

Why see a psychologist when the diagnosis is IBS?

Many people experience distress and anxiety when their doctor makes a recommendation that they see a psychologist.

This reaction often comes from the belief that a referral to a psychologist carries with it assumptions about symptoms being “all in your head” or the result of “mental illness”. These are two of the biggest misconceptions about the

practice of psychology in a medical setting, and they can often stand in the way of patients achieving a meaningful reduction in symptoms. In this column, I hope to dispel some of these misconceptions around psychology in a medical

setting, and in doing so communicate a few of the benefits you might be able to achieve in working with a psychologistto address your symptoms of IBS.

 

http://www.med.unc.edu/medicine/fgidc/psychandIBS.pdf

Taking a good probiotic might help.

If it is IBS then there are other ways to try to work on the problems.

You might also want to take a look at these videos.

http://www.aboutibs.org/site/learning-center/video-corner/

There are a "specific cluster of symptoms" to diagnose IBS.

http://www.aboutibs.org/site/about-ibs/symptoms/

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


Forum Moderator
 
I am not a doctor. All information I present is for educational purposes only and should not be subsituted for the advise of a qualified health care provider.

Please make sure you have your symptoms diagnosed by a medical practitioner or a doctor.


kim123
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Date Joined Jul 2006
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   Posted 6/5/2010 12:05 PM (GMT -7)   
I'm thinking all those antibiotics are definitely part of her problem. Antibiotics are fungal poisons, they wipe out all bacteria, good and bad, allowing yeast to proliferate. Fungus is always overlooked as a cause, as doctors aren't educated in the area of mycology. Perhaps you could investigate an antifungal program. Grains, sugar and yeast feed fungus. Has she had a colonoscopy? -tested for gluten allergy/intolerance? Definitely recommend the probiotics and maybe natural antimicrobials such as olive leaf extract.

civilmonk
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Date Joined Jun 2010
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   Posted 6/5/2010 12:40 PM (GMT -7)   
Kim123
 
My wife had colonoscopy. Three times. First time (short after salmonella infection): they call it microinflammation. After next two years: clean. Two years ago: again micoinflammation.
 
We made full antyfungal program. No results.
 
Yes - we know that antybiotiscs are part of the problem. So we are very carefull to take them. But we tried so many times xifaxan because it is only in 1% absporbed to whole body (xifaxan: rifaksiminum - i have noticed know that I called this xanax in my post, it was mistake, i was thinking about xifaxan/rifaksimunum). In childhood my wife has taken a lot of antybiotics :(. Currently she has allergy on part of them and for many others she has resistance.
 
shawn123
 
Thank you for you post - i will read that documents. As I conculted it with one expert who is a little more expirienced with IBS in Poland, my wife has probably SIBO + IBS. In our opinion it is IBS-PI. In our doctors opinion IBS-D...
 
We had long psychoterapy and my wife also was under psychiatrists consultation and she take some drugs from him. Nothing changed after psychoterapy and psychiatrists drugs...
 
Jarek

kim123
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   Posted 6/5/2010 3:23 PM (GMT -7)   
What did your antifungal program look like (foods allowed and drugs), and for how long did you stay on it? I am still convinced the long term antibiotic use is much of the problem, especially when you tell me your wife took many antibiotics as a child. Does she have other symptoms?- fatigue, joint pain, headaches, ringing ears, skin problems,... Has the doctor ever prescribed diflucan or nystatin?- prescription antifungals. 

shawn12
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Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1293
   Posted 6/5/2010 5:22 PM (GMT -7)   
civilmonk
The salmonella infection can cause changes to cells in the bowel. That is part of what happens in PI IBS. Did this basically start after the salmonella infection? If your wife has had this for many years, it basically changes from PI IBS to IBS. And she sounds predominate d.
 
If you suspect she may have sibo I would get a hydrogen breath test done, not a lactulose one.
 
Again she may have both IBS and sibo.
 
Nether of these two conditions are caused by a fungus or one specific bacteria or virus. In the case of Post Infectious IBS numerous bacteria and virus's can lead to PI IBS.
 
I have a lot of material on both sibo and IBS and PI IBS.
 
Also taking xifaxan sometimes might help and then you might have to take it again. SIBO can be chronic of sorts as well as IBS. The experts are still working on how long people should be on them for this and to seperate IBS from SIBO. That would be something to work closely with your doctor on.
 
The other issue also is to replace any bad bacteria with probiotics.
 
Then there are other issues here they have found wrong in IBS patients that are very important.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Forum Moderator
 
I am not a doctor. All information I present is for educational purposes only and should not be subsituted for the advise of a qualified health care provider.

Please make sure you have your symptoms diagnosed by a medical practitioner or a doctor.


kim123
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Date Joined Jul 2006
Total Posts : 1201
   Posted 6/5/2010 8:14 PM (GMT -7)   
It must be so frustrating not to know what is wrong with your wife. Seems no one knows for sure. My gut is telling me the widespread use of antibiotics have caused a yeast/fungus overgrowth and therein lies your problem. However, I am not a doctor, nor do I pretend to be one. :) I am only going by my own success with an antifungal program (I had UC and still have IBS issues) and knowledge about fungus being implicated in many of our diseases. I'm still interested to know exactly what antifungal program your wife was on when you tried it, and for how long you were on it. You mentioned a diet change did help with the symptoms, although symptoms did not go away completely. What was the diet change? Bless you for being a caring husband :)

civilmonk
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Date Joined Jun 2010
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   Posted 6/6/2010 12:37 AM (GMT -7)   
Thank you for your attention :)
 
Kim123, classic medicine tests (stool analysis) never shown in past that there is som fungus infection. So we go also to doctor specialised in both - classic and alternative medicine. They used some funny tests (analysis of electric wave response from patient after giving to patient template wave of species - including fungies). They ofcoruse found something. Also in me :). So we made one month programm with antyfungal food and special antyfungal drugs. I don't remember their names. That was hard month to survive but we did it. After that, alternative funny tests shown that we are clear.
 
Year ago, after using some non clean drug (by some women fault who didn't say us to keep them in fridge) there was real fungal infection, show also in stool analysis. Doctor (who give that drops) give to my wife very strony antyfungal classic drugs. They were removed (we did again stool analysis). That drops are called SymbioFlor and are produced in Germany. Are expensive but are good. But because of that fungal infection my wife situation started again to be destabilzed (after partial stabilisation after using xifaxan twice). And this distabilization is still in progress... from year.
 
Generally my wife daily diet is not good for fungal :) Only cooked potatos, steamed vegetables (only few of them), steamed fish or ligh meat. Some bread, butter and a lot of millet, soya, rise (brown). No sweets, no alcohol, no fres vegetables and fruits - she fell wery bad after eating them.
 
In my opinion this isn't good diet for her becase it is still diet with remains and bowel have a lot work with that. In my opnion she schould for some time switch to medical diet with no remains (as Ensure or Nutirica). That are "ready to eat" products that are already prepeared to easy diggest.
 
My wife is fatique - ofcourse. After so many years with that illness.... who will be not? But she don't have other fungal symptoms you write about.
 
Shawn12, thank you for your documents. I already readed them and we are started to find some place where we can made HB test for SIBO. If you have more good papier about this please send it to me - I have a lot but polish papers and in my opinion polish medicine doesn't know those problems too well.
 
Yes - my wife probles started immidietly after curing salmonella infection and those infection was active for about 3 weeks becase was badly cured in Turkey and then not clean recognized in Poland. I had also this infection :) But I was cured without IBS problems. Only for next few years I had sometimes small pain in upper part of adbominal, on left side, under ribs. But it go away finally some time ago...
 
After reading your documents I started to agree with my wife that current procedure schould be:
 
- make HB test
- maybe make genetics analysis of stool (metametrix... unfortunatelly there is no such place in Poland so there will be trip needed, maybe to England).
- find proper antybiotcs that will NOT BE resitant to overgrow bacteria and will NOT BE allergic to my wife -> this both condition are hard because there is not to many antybiotics left that can pass this criteria :(. I think we will have to make conultation on specialist of microbiology and antybiotics, not only a normal doctor who only prescirbe them
- use proper diet and propbiotics and lot of sports, not stresfull work for year or more...
 
This is my current idea.
 
Unfurtunatelly this will take time and currently my wife is feel bad. She eat only few things. She is loosing weight and strenght to fight with that problems :(
 
Jarek

Post Edited (civilmonk) : 6/6/2010 1:42:05 AM (GMT-6)


civilmonk
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Date Joined Jun 2010
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   Posted 6/6/2010 8:24 AM (GMT -7)   
I have read today full academic document about xifaxax from its producer. In whole world there was no single person that developed resistance to that antybiotic. More over - it can be safely used even several times to make an effect. It is also safe for fungal problems because it is not absorbed to whole body from digestive system. Ofcourse you have to use strong probiotics to protec that system.

So maybe this is the reason that my wife doesen't fill better last time when she take one dose of xifaxan. Year ago she feel much better after two doses.

And our professor suggest to use more doses of that. Maybe we schould... My wife today is feeling better (she is still taking xifaxan, first dose). So maybe there is hope. And when xifaxan will finally make an effect: diet, diet, diet.... for very long time...

Jarek

kim123
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   Posted 6/6/2010 10:08 AM (GMT -7)   

Interesting report on xifaxan:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/10/16/health/webmd/main2096522.shtml

Good luck to your wife. I hope she starts feeling much better soon.


shawn12
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Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1293
   Posted 6/6/2010 5:00 PM (GMT -7)   
The "report on xifaxan" is old now just fyi.
 
There was and still is some controversy over SIBO as a cause for IBS. Now they have fond some people have both IBS and SIBO. Basically Pimental jumped the gun by saying IBS is caused by SIBO. In that article I am friends with Dr Drossman and he has helped me for over ten years now, as well as many others at the UNC center for functional gi and motility disorders. I will still post more about that soon.
 
SIBO effects the small bowel. IBS is basically a problem with the large intestines.
 
In SIBO there can be malabsorbtion.
 
IN IBS there is no malabsorbtion.
 
Sibo can be cause by motility issues and be chronic.
 
IBS has motility issues, but motility alone does not explain the symptoms of IBS. In IBS its motility, Visceral hypersensitivity and brain gut axis dysregulation.

 

 
 
There are a lot of Educational Materials here.

http://www.med.unc.edu/medicine/fgidc/public_education_materials.htm

 



 
"Gut Bacteria and Irritable Bowel Syndrome
By: Eamonn, M. M. Quigley M.D., Alimentary Pharmabiotic Centre, University College Cork, Cork, Ireland
 
Bacteria are present in the normal gut (intestines) and in large numbers the lower parts of the intestine. These "normal" bacteria have important functions in life. A variety of factors may disturb the mutually beneficial relationship between the flora and its host, and disease may result. The possibility that gut bacteria could have a role in irritable bowel syndrome (IBS) may surprise some; there is indeed, now quite substantial evidence to support the idea that disturbances in the bacteria that populate the intestine may have a role in at least some patients with IBS. This article presents a discussion of the possible role of bacteria in IBS and various treatment approaches."
Do bacteria play a role in IBS?
The possibility that gut bacteria could have a role Irritable Bowel Syndrome (IBS) may surprize some; there is indeed, now quite substantial evidence to support the idea that distrubances in the bacteria that populate the intestines may have a role in at least some patients with IBS. What is this evidence? It can be summarized as follows:
1. surveys which found that antibiotic use, well known to distrub flora, may predispose individuals to IBS.
2. The observation that some individuals may develop IBS suddenly, and for the first time, following an episode of stomach or intestinal infection (gatroenteritis) caused by a bacterial infection.
3. recent evidence that a very low level of inflammation may be present in the bowel wall of some IBS patients, a degree of inflammation that could well have resulted from abnormal interactions with bacteria in the gut.
4. The Suggestion that IBS maybe Associated with the abnormal presents, , in the small intestines, of types and numbers; a condition termed small bacterial overgrowth (SIBO)>
5. Accumaliting evidence to indicate that altering the bacteria in the gut, by antibiotics or probiotics, may improve symptoms in IBS.
For some time, various studies have suggested the presence of changes in the kind of colonic flora in IBS patients. The most consistent finding is a relative decrease in the population of one species of 'good' bacteria, bifidobacteria.
However, the methods employed in these studies have been subject to question and other studies have not always reproduced these finding. Nevertheless, these changes in the flora, maybe primary or secondary, could lead to the increase of bacterial species that produce more gas and other products of their metabolism. These could CONTRIBUTE to symptoms such as gas, bloating and diarrhea."

"We still don't know the exact role bacteria has in IBS. More research is needed."
 
 
However, there are other important issues in IBS in regards to cells in the gut that communicate back and forth with the brain that are also involved in IBS, ec cells and mast cells are two of them.
 
 
Harold J. DeMonaco, M.S.
Harold J. DeMonaco, M.S., is senior analyst, Innovative Diagnostics and Therapeutics, and the chair of the Human Research Committee at the Massachusetts General Hospital. He is author of over 20 publications in the pharmacy and medical literature and routinely reviews manuscript submissions for eight medical journals.
.
.
June 19, 2001
.
A:
Irritable bowel syndrome is now recognized as a disorder of serotonin activity. Serotonin is a neurotransmitter in the brain that regulates sleep, mood (depression, anxiety), aggression, appetite, temperature, sexual behavior and pain sensation. Serotonin also acts as a neurotransmitter in the gastrointestinal tract.
Excessive serotonin activity in the gastrointestinal system (enteric nervous system) is thought to cause the diarrhea of irritable-bowel syndrome. The enteric nervous system detects bowel distension (expansion) on the basis of pressure-sensitive cells in the bowel lumen (opening). Once activated, these pressure-sensitive cells promote the release of serotonin, which in turn promotes both secretory function and peristaltic function (the contractions of the intestines that force the contents outward). At least four serotonergic receptors have been identified to be participants in the secretory and peristaltic response.
Patients with diarrhea-predominant IBS may have higher levels of serotonin after eating than do people without the disorder. This recognition led to the development of the first drug used specifically to treat diarrheal symptoms of IBS, alosetron (also known as Lotronex). Alosetron blocked the specific serotonin receptors responsible for recognizing bowel distention. In doing so, it blocked the effects of serotonin and reduced both bowel secretions and peristalsis. Constipation was the most common side effect seen. (Note: Alosetron was removed from the market by the manufacturer after repeated reports of a dangerous condition known as ischemic colitis became known.) Tegaserod (Zelmac) is another drug under development and under review by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration for approval. Tegaserod is indicated for the treatment of constipation-predominant IBS and works to increase enteric nervous system serotonin activity.
So, increasing serotonin activity in the enteric nervous system produces increased bowel secretions and peristalsis (and potentially diarrhea), whereas depressing serotonin activity produces reduced secretions and reduce peristalsis (and potentially constipation). Increasing serotonin activity in the brain would increase awareness and, in higher doses, produce anxiety, insomnia and restlessness."
 
also
 
'Functional syndromes' • Brains interpret pain signals differently
By Tina Hesman Saey
ST. LOUIS POST-DISPATCH
07/08/2007
All Tina Allen wants is a doctor like TV's Dr. House. He'd figure out what's wrong with her.
She has plenty of symptoms and diagnoses. Her medical records cram a tote bag 6 inches thick. She's boiled down the highlights for new doctors into a four-page summary. It starts with a list of 29 symptoms and 26 diagnoses and ends with a plea for a House-like commitment to get to the bottom of what's wrong.
Allen has a suite of conditions that includes irritable bowel syndrome, fibromyalgia, headaches and pain and tingling in her hands and arms.
Millions of people across the country share at least one of Allen's conditions, and many battle more than one. Advertisement
Doctors have been stumped as to why those people are so susceptible.
But researchers, including some in St. Louis, now think the ailments may have a common cause. Studies have shown that the brains of people with these conditions may interpret pain signals differently than those of other people.
Doctors have labeled the problems "functional syndromes" because they haven't found a physical cause for the complaints.
In fact, most patients with combinations of these conditions have been told at least once that the problem is all in their heads.
"The way that society and the health care system responds to these disturbances is part of the problem," said Dr. Emeran Mayer, director of neurovisceral sciences and women's health at the University of California at Los Angeles.
Separating symptoms
Most of the time patients are referred to specialists and subspecialists to deal with individual sets of symptoms. Patients tend to talk about digestive problems only with their gastroenterologists, saving joint pain and headaches and other problems for other specialists, Mayer said.
But patients will report those other problems if asked.
about eight years ago, Dr. Ray Clouse, a gastroenterologist at Washington University, and his colleagues started asking patients to fill out a form listing about 30 symptoms, only a subset of which included stomach and bowel problems. Patients who had conditions such as Crohn's disease or ulcers usually would mark only stomach pain and bleeding. But patients with irritable bowel syndrome and related conditions often would tick off nearly all the digestive tract symptoms plus a host of others including trouble sleeping, joint and muscle pain, lower back pain and headaches, Clouse said.
As many as one in five people have irritable bowel syndrome. Between 3 million and 6 million people, most of them women, suffer from fibromyalgia. People with fibromyalgia experience joint and muscle pain, fatigue and multiple tender spots. The tingling and pain in Allen's hands, a condition known as peripheral neuropathy, affects about 20 million people. about half of patients with one of the ailments also have others, such as chronic fatigue syndrome, tension headaches, restless leg syndrome or multiple chemical sensitivity.
The doctors weren't the first to note that patients with functional syndromes often have a history of psychiatric conditions such as depression or anxiety.
"That was a big distraction," Clouse said.
The correlation pushed doctors into two camps: those who believed the syndromes were psychiatric conditions and those who thought they had physical causes. The fact that low doses of antidepressants or talk therapy are often effective in treating irritable bowel syndrome and other functional disorders further complicates the matter, Clouse said.
Geared-up processing
Brain imaging studies show that the nerves of people with functional syndromes send normal pain signals to the brain. Once those signals reach the brain, though, they are processed in areas involved in emotion, stress and thinking. That processing center appears to be more active in people with functional disorders, suggesting that the interpretation of pain signals, rather than the sensation itself, goes awry in people with the syndromes, Clouse said.
What's more, the geared-up processing center may rile up the autonomic nervous system — the part of the nervous system that controls automatic responses such as sweating, heartbeat and blood pressure — so it makes the person sweat, causes cramps and triggers pain. Those sensations are sent back to the brain where the whole process repeats, each time rachetting up the patient's pain and distress, Clouse said.
Clouse and his colleague Dr. Gregory Sayuk, a Washington University gastroenterologist who specializes in irritable bowel syndrome and other functional digestive syndromes, are trying to understand how pain is processed in people with multiple functional syndromes. They have already shown that the pain processing center is more active in people with irritable bowel syndrome than in people without it.
Now they will compare how people such as Tina Allen, who have many functional syndromes, process pain with people who have only irritable bowel syndrome and with people who have no syndromes.
Allen, who is 50, made the trip from her home in Kansas City to participate in the study.
"I have believed my whole life that there's some sort of interference between my GI tract and my brain," she said. Her test results tell her she's not crazy. "I have quantifiable evidence of physical processes, so it's not just psychosomatic."
Sayuk expects to collect data on 24 volunteers by the end of the summer. It will take months to analyze the results.
More than 100 genes may be involved in making people with functional syndromes more sensitive to pain and stress, said UCLA's Mayer. As much as 20 percent of the population may carry genes that make them more susceptible to pain, Mayer said. But genes are not the whole story.
People who develop functional syndromes probably have some defect in their central nervous systems, Mayer said. Different events may trigger symptoms in different parts of the body, he said. Some studies have shown that people who get food poisoning are more likely to develop irritable bowel syndrome. Other things may trigger restless leg syndrome or pelvic pain or jaw pain.
Mayer predicts that within five years scientists will finally understand what drives functional syndromes. Finding treatments will probably take longer, but at least Allen and others may finally know what is wrong with them.
 
 
Forum Moderator
 
I am not a doctor. All information I present is for educational purposes only and should not be subsituted for the advise of a qualified health care provider.

Please make sure you have your symptoms diagnosed by a medical practitioner or a doctor.


kim123
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Date Joined Jul 2006
Total Posts : 1201
   Posted 6/6/2010 7:40 PM (GMT -7)   
I realize the article is old. Actually, that was my point. Theories/opinions are constantly changing ...(wasn't that long ago 4 out of 5 doctors who smoked, smoked Camels),  and no one really knows for sure what might be causing someone's symptoms, or what "the" sole solution is. The point is to try to find your own thumbprint in all of this. Think about when/why your symptoms started, try to make a connection, and go from there..... (antibiotic use, moved to water-damaged/moldy house or school, visiting overseas country, touring old buildings suseptible to mold/mildew, using birth control pills...)
 
To me, antibiotic use (allowing good bacteria to be killed off, allowing yeast to proliferate)would be a definite red flag that fungus may be one of the culprits with symptoms. Doctors are necessary, but don't always know everything. I was tested for everything, given many different drugs over a period of 8 years, and not one doctor suggested fungus as the problem for me. Even balked and pretty well humiliated me when I suggested my theory to them after I got well. On my own, I researched fungus and decided to experiment with an antifungal diet. I daresay I'd still be sick if I didn't take my health into my own hands. He just kept wanting to write prescriptions for me, until he found one that helped my symptoms.
 
 

shawn12
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   Posted 6/7/2010 12:02 PM (GMT -7)   
Kim, you and I highly disagree on fungus, specifically candida, which I know your not mentioning.

The connection between IBS and sibo is old. Not the problems they have found in IBS, that are not related to fungus at all.

The sibo and IBS was important research, even if it just pointed out some IBSers have sibo and IBS. Neither of which have to do with fungus.


Out of the millions of IBSers NOT ONE has ever been diagnosed with a candida fungus infection.

IBS is NOT an infection to begin with.

Nor should people self diagnose themselves, which is the leading cause of misdiagnoses.

IBS research has grown tremdously over the last ten years. Even though they don't have the whole picture yet, it is starting to come together more and more.

IBS is also NOT a catch all diagnoses but a specific entity with a specific cluster of symptoms.

While I am glad you feel better I think its important people get accurate information on IBS. IBS is not a fungus infection and people should work with their docotrs and not self diagnose themselves.

There is a connection already and has been for some ten years that some people get a GI infection, like salmonella infection. The infection goes away and causes changes to the gi tract and can lead to post infectious IBS and to IBS. This is well known in the research.

There are effective treatments for most IBSers to help them manage IBS.

I believe there is a whole lot of IBS research you are personally unaware of in regards to IBS.

This is from one of the top recgonized IBS researchers in the world.

Dr Drossman's comments on foods for IBS Health.

Shawn,
To say that people with IBS may get symptoms from food intolerances is an acceptable possibility, since the gut will over react to stressors of all types including food (high fat or large volumes of food in particular). Furthermore, there can be specific intolerances. So if you have a lactose intolerance for example, it can exacerbate, or even mimic IBS. Other examples of food substances causing diarrhea would be high consumers of caffeine or alcohol which can stimulate intestinal secretion or with the latter, pull water into the bowel (osmotic diarrhea). The same would be true for overdoing certain poorly absorbed sugars that can cause an osmotic type of diarrhea Sorbitol, found in sugarless gum and sugar substituted foods can also produce such an osmotic diarrhea. Even more naturally, people who consume a large amount of fruits, juices or other processed foods enriched with fructose, can get diarrhea because it is not as easily absorbed by the bowel and goes to the colon where it pulls in water. So if you have IBS, all of these food items would make it worse.

However, it is important to separate factors that worsen IBS (e.g., foods as above, stress, hormonal changes, etc.) from the cause or pathophysiology of IBS. Just like stress doesn't cause IBS, (though it can make it worse), foods must be understood as aggravating rather than etiological in nature.

The cause of IBS is yet to be determined. However, modern research understands IBS as a disorder of increased reactivity of the bowel, visceral hypersensitivity and dysfunction of the brain-gut axis. There are subgroups being defined as well, including post-infectious IBS which can lead to IBS symptoms. Other work using brain imaging shows that the pain regulation center of the brain (cingulate cortex) can be impaired, as well as good evidence for there being abnormalities in motility which can at least in part explain the diarrhea and constipation. So finding a specific "cause" of IBS has grown out of general interest in place of understanding physiological subgroups that may become amenable to more specific treatments. Hope that helps.
Doug

http://www.ibshealth.com/ibsfoods2.htm

The "abnormalities in motility which can at least in part explain the diarrhea and constipation" have to do with some specific cells in the enteric nervous system that release important nuerotransmitters that communicate back and forth between the digestive system and the brain.

Modern research understands IBS is a problem of motility, Visceral hypersensitivity and brain gut axis dysregulation.
Forum Moderator
 
I am not a doctor. All information I present is for educational purposes only and should not be subsituted for the advise of a qualified health care provider.

Please make sure you have your symptoms diagnosed by a medical practitioner or a doctor.


kim123
Veteran Member


Date Joined Jul 2006
Total Posts : 1201
   Posted 6/7/2010 1:13 PM (GMT -7)   
I don't disagree with any of what you said. You are the "expert" with IBS, not me. I'm just sharing my opinions of what was asked for from Jarek- help, hopefully trying to help him figure out what may be wrong with his wife, since none of his doctors seem to know what's going on. After 8 years of miserytrying all the doctors suggestions, I'm just throwing another possibility in there for them to consider....one that doesn't even cost money or have harmful side effects with prescription drugs.
 
I'm not trying to be "right", just helpful. And, it may not help her, but at least she has something else to consider and perhaps try, just in case.  She may have more than just IBS. No one seems to be able to verify that for her by the sounds of it. God, how I wish it were that easy to know for sure what would help her.  I wish Jarek and his wife much good luck in finding what they are looking for.
 
I will refrain from offering any more advice/opinions for this thread. Fill your boots. 

civilmonk
New Member


Date Joined Jun 2010
Total Posts : 10
   Posted 6/8/2010 5:16 AM (GMT -7)   
Hello,

yesterday we received another stool analysis from our labolatory (good one). Clean. Also fungus - clean. So overgrow of bacteria is propably the main reason of problems. Tomorrow my wife will take last doze of xifaxan. We can't say that she fell generaly better but some symptoms are weaker.

Next week she will have again meeting with our gastro professor. I suppose that he will give her another doze of xifaxan after some break.

I have ordere Dr. Marc Pimentel book from amazon becase as I saw his opinion about IBS+SIBO is simillar to our expiriences and his method of cure also. We will see. We need this time to be prepaerd to have good diet concept if xifaxan finnally resolve her problems.

I found in our city place to make HBT so I will give you information about results soon. Maybe after 2 -3 weeks - when school year will end. My wife is a private language teacher (english :) - but she hates to use forums and other social places in Internet so I started to talk on).

Greetings
Jarek

shawn12
Veteran Member


Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1293
   Posted 6/8/2010 12:27 PM (GMT -7)   
 
The treatment for sibo with antibiotics isn't really a "cure." Even for just sibo. The bacteria in sibo are normal bacteria in the wrong place, the small bowel. The reason they can be in the wrong place is altered motility.
 
She could have IBS and sibo going on at the same time. If this is the case that would be important for treatment options and to treat the IBS and the sibo.
 
Many experts do not agree with pimental on sibo being the cause of IBS for many reasons.
 
pimental is also involved in salix the makers of the antibitoic.
 
Its important to be careful about the information in the book as new research has shed more light on the issues since it was written.
 
Its good she's being tested with the Hydrogen breth test.
 
Has she ever been tested for lactose intolerence as well?
 
again she could have two problems going on at the same time.
 
 
 
 
 
Forum Moderator
 
I am not a doctor. All information I present is for educational purposes only and should not be subsituted for the advise of a qualified health care provider.

Please make sure you have your symptoms diagnosed by a medical practitioner or a doctor.


shawn12
Veteran Member


Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1293
   Posted 6/8/2010 12:44 PM (GMT -7)   
Civilmonk, back in 2006 I was asking some questions about all this.

First

FYI

I am trying to understand somethings in relationship to SIBO.

I posted here so you both may see it. I am looking into but am not sure about somethings that you guys can possibly help with.

Okay altered motlity can cause bacteria to enter the small bowel where it should not be really, at least in high counts, because its a pretty sterile environment. For the moment I am just looking at the altered motility reason for SIBO.

What are small intestinal bacteria overgrowth symptoms?

The symptoms of SIBO include:

excess gas,
abdominal bloating and distension,
diarrhea, and
abdominal pain.

"A small number of patients with SIBO have chronic constipation rather than diarrhea. "

How does small intestinal bacterial overgrowth cause symptoms?

When bacteria digest food in the intestine, they produce gas. The gas can accumulate in the abdomen giving rise to abdominal bloating or distension. Distension can cause abdominal pain. The increased amounts of gas are passed as flatus (flatulence or farts). The bacteria also probably convert food into substances that are irritating or toxic to the cells of the inner lining of the small intestine and colon. These irritating substances produce diarrhea (by causing secretion of water into the intestine). There is some evidence that the production of one gas by the bacteria—methane—causes constipation.

http://www.medicinenet.com/small_intestina...rowth/page2.htm

Any Idea what those irritating substances are?

This means these are just in the wrong place and not specific or multiple pathogens?

Then I wrote to Dr Drossman a world recognized leader in IBS research.

I wrote to Dr Drossman on this and here is the reply.

*Any Idea what those irritating substances are?*

sorry its in bold type that is how he worte it into the email so I would see it was his answers.

"IT IS AN OVERSTATEMENT TO SAY THEY ARE "IRRITATING" SUBSTANCES AT LEAST
IN THE SENSE OF BEING SOME TYPE OF TOXIN. THEY ARE NATURAL BYPRODUCTS OF
DEGRADATION OF FOOD SUBSTANCES BY BACTERIA WHICH DON'T NORMALLY OCCUR IN
THE SMALL BOWEL. SO WITH INCREASED BACTERIA IN THE SMALL BOWEL, THE
BACTERIA ARE ABLE TO DIGEST SUGARS FOR EXAMPLE PRODUCING H2 AND CO2 FROM
THE SUGARS WHICH ARE GASEOUS BUT WHICH ALSO HAVE OSMOTIC PROPERTIES,
I.E. INCREASED PARTICLES THAT CAUSE SECRETION OF FLUID INTO THE BOWEL
THUS CAUSING DIARRHEA. IT'S THE SAME PRINCIPLE AS USING NON ABSORBABLE
SUGARS LIKE LACTULOSE OR SORBITAL TO TREAT CONSIPATION BY INCREASING
FLUID IN THE BOWEL. IT'S JUST THAT WITHOUT BACTERIA IN THE SMALL BOWEL,
IT DOESN'T HAPPEN AND THE FOOD SUBSTANCES GET ABSORBED. WITH INCREASED
BACTERIA IT COMPETES FOR THE FOOD SUBSTANCES AND PRODUCES THE GAS AND
DIARRHEA."

*This means these are just in the wrong place and not specific or multiple pathogens?*

CORRECT. HOWEVER, THERE IS GROWING INTEREST NOT IN THE AMOUNT OF
BACTERIA BUT THE TYPE OF BACTERIA. CERTAIN BACTERIA CAN CAUSE SOME MILD
INFLAMMATION OF THE BOWEL AND OTHERS PROTECT THE BOWEL FROM THAT
POSSIBILITY. SO THERE IS "GOOD" AND "BAD" BACTERIA. POSSIBLY WHEN PEOPLE
ARE TREATING PRESUMED SIBO (WHICH MIGHT NOT ACTUALLY BE HAPPENNING,
BECAUSE THE TEST MAY BE INACCURATE) ANTIBIOTICS MAY HELP TO GET RID OF
THE BAD BACTERIA AND THAT MAY BE WHY THEY ARE GETTING BETTER. THIS IS
WHY SOME PEOPLE GET BETTER AFTER ANTIBIOTIC TREATMENT. BUT IT CAN ALSO
GO THE OTHER WAY, I.E., ANTIBIOTICS HAVE BEEN SHOWN TO MAKE IBS WORSE AS
WELL. THE OTHER IDEA IS TO USE PROBIOTICS WHICH CONTAIN "GOOD" BACTERIA
(E.G., LACTOBACILLUS OR BIFIDOBACTERIA) WHICH REPLACE THE BAD BACTERIA,
POSSIBLY REDUCE THE INFLAMMATION AND IMPROVE SYMPTOMS. SO THE ISSUE OF
BACTERIA IN THE BOWEL IS MUCH MORE COMPLICATED THAN SIMPLE SIBO, BUT SIBO CAN BE A PART OF THE WHOLE PICTURE (THOUGH NOT THE WHOLE PICTURE FOR IBS).
Dr Drossman UNC center for functional gi and motility disorders

Here though there can be transient inflammation for a lot of reasons. Even some medications can cause inflammation. But bacteria can, just like a minor food problem, not enough to give you food poisonming for example, but enough to make you quezy so to speak. Like eating some questionable leftovers out of the fridge say.

There is another kind of inflammation in IBS also we have talked about extensively regarding mast cells in IBS, especially in PI and D predominate IBS.

It is not completely known however if all IBSers have inflammation. This inflammation also is MACROSCOPIC. I will see if I can find a picture. I know there are some out there.

And inflammation cannot be a biological marker in IBS, because it does not always cause pain.

There are also other abnormalities that have to be taken into account in the big picture.

civilmonk
New Member


Date Joined Jun 2010
Total Posts : 10
   Posted 6/9/2010 2:48 AM (GMT -7)   
Dear Shawn,

do you know something about pain in pancreas during IBS/SIBO?

do you know something about using Sulpiryde druing IBS/SIBO?

I'm sure that using xifaxan only is not solution to the problem. So we are going to use proper probiotics, proper diet, unstresfull work and a lot of sport activities for my wife when she will start to fell better after xifaxan.

Greetings
Jarek

shawn12
Veteran Member


Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1293
   Posted 6/9/2010 11:10 AM (GMT -7)   
Civilmonk, I am not sure what you mean by

"pain in pancreas during IBS/SIBO?"

The pancreas is not inovlved in in IBS. Not so sure about sibo, unless the pancreas has issues resulting in sibo perhaps.

In IBS pain can be all over the lower abdomen though.

Has she had her pancreas checked out.

Do you mean Sulpiride?

This is a antipsychotic drug used for depression and other reasons .

"Levosulpiride has also been promoted as a gastroprokinetic agent"
was she prescribed this?

Some of these drugs effect both the gut and the brain. The gut produces almost all the chemicals found in the brain. An important one the gut produces is serotonin, which helps control digestion among other things.

Also you have to remeber IBS and SIBO are different conditions, somethings may help both however, but there can also be specific treatments for IBS as well as sibo.

But your plan sounds pretty good.

also to note, is sibo can be caused by other reasons.



It can also cause malabsorbtion of nutrients. IBS does not because its a problem of the large colon. So nutrients are already absorbed. Heance weight loss is a red flag in IBS, but can be part of sibo.

"

Small bowel bacterial overgrowth syndrome (SBBOS), or small intestinal bacterial overgrowth (SIBO), also termed bacterial overgrowth; is a disorder of excessive bacterial growth in the small intestine. Unlike the colon (or large bowel), which is rich with bacteria, the small bowel usually has less than 104 organisms per milliliter. Patients with bacterial overgrowth typically develop symptoms including nausea, bloating, vomiting and diarrhea, which is caused by a number of mechanisms. The diagnosis of bacterial overgrowth is made by a number of techniques, with the gold standard diagnosis being an aspirate from the jejunum that grows in excess of 105 bacteria per millilitre. Risk factors for the development of bacterial overgrowth include the use of medications including proton pump inhibitors, anatomical disturbances in the bowel, including fistulae, diverticula and blind loops created after surgery, and resection of the ileo-cecal valve. Small bowel bacterial overgrowth syndrome is treated with antibiotics, which may be given in a cyclic fashion to prevent tolerance to the antibiotics.

Bacterial overgrowth can cause a variety of symptoms, many of which are also found in other conditions, making the diagnosis challenging at times. Many of the symptoms are due to malabsorption of nutrients due to the effects of bacteria which either metabolize nutrients or cause inflammation of the small bowel impairing absorption. The symptoms of bacterial overgrowth include nausea, bloating, flatus, and chronic diarrhea. Some patients may develop abdominal discomfort and lose weight. Children with bacterial overgrowth may develop malnutrition and have difficulty attaining proper growth. Steatorrhea is a sticky type of diarrhea, where lipids are malabsorbed and spill into the stool.

Patients with bacterial overgrowth that is longstanding can develop complications of their illness as a result of malabsorption of nutrients. Anemia may occur from a variety of mechanisms, as many of the nutrients involved in production of red blood cells are absorbed in the affected small bowel. Iron is absorbed in the more proximal parts of the small bowel, the duodenum and jejunum, and patients with malabsorption of iron can develop a microcytic anemia, with small red blood cells. Vitamin B12 is absorbed in the last part of the small bowel, the ileum, and patients who malabsorb vitamin B12 can develop a megaloblastic anemia with large red blood cells.

Risk factors and causes


The ileo-cecal valve prevents reflux of bacteria from the colon into the small bowel. Resection of the valve can lead to bacterial overgrowth
Certain patients are more predisposed to the development of bacterial overgrowth because of certain risk factors. These factors can be grouped into three categories: (1) disordered motility or movement of the small bowel or anatomical changes that lead to stasis, (2) disorders in the immune system and (3) conditions that cause more bacteria from the colon to enter the small bowel.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Small_bowel_bacterial_overgrowth_syndrome

puffed rice
Regular Member


Date Joined Feb 2008
Total Posts : 495
   Posted 6/9/2010 7:19 PM (GMT -7)   
CIVILMONK, Does your wife take any soluble fibre like metamucil (psylium) daily?  It is beneficial for people with IBS.  Probiotics are also important to take daily, I'm not sure what is available in poland but if you go to the Ulcerative Colitis forum you can read about all the ones that do work for us.  They are beneficial especially if your wife has been on antibiotics that often.
Has your wife every tried to eliminate flour products from her diet?  Flour and gluten tends to be a problem with alot of us.
Diagnosed with Ulcerative Colitis 1995
Salofalk Tablets  2pills -3xday
 cortifoam nightly when needed
hycort enemas nightly when flaring/vitamin E enemas
Bio-K Probiotic (evening) + Renew Life - ultimate flora critical care probiotic (morning)
metamucil nightly
cut out all wheat and flour


Marsky
Veteran Member


Date Joined Jul 2007
Total Posts : 1956
   Posted 6/10/2010 6:22 AM (GMT -7)   
I've noticed a marked improvement by taking Renew Life Critical Care, 80 Billion count. I usually take 1 capsule at bedtime, on an empty stomach. But occasionally up that to 1 capsule mid-morning, again on an empty stomach. Sometimes it seems as if I need more than 80 Billion but I am here to say that little pill seems to work some kind of magic within my GI tract, specifically my large intestine/colon!
- Rectal CA 4/29/99, Stage I, 90% sigmoid/15" of colon/GB removed, temporary colostomy, reversed 6-26-99
- Chronic IBS/D symptoms, multiple bm's, on low residue diet
- Colace 50 mg + Ultimate Flora Critical Care 50 Billion daily


civilmonk
New Member


Date Joined Jun 2010
Total Posts : 10
   Posted 6/11/2010 6:43 AM (GMT -7)   
puffed rice said...
CIVILMONK, Does your wife take any soluble fibre like metamucil (psylium) daily?  It is beneficial for people with IBS.  Probiotics are also important to take daily, I'm not sure what is available in poland but if you go to the Ulcerative Colitis forum you can read about all the ones that do work for us.  They are beneficial especially if your wife has been on antibiotics that often.
Has your wife every tried to eliminate flour products from her diet?  Flour and gluten tends to be a problem with alot of us.
 
--------------------
 
HI, no - i never heard about soluble fibre. Generally there are two doctors that are deal with my wife problems: profesor of gastrology and doctor specialised of rebuild bowel flore.  First is giving xifaxan. The second doctor tries to take longtime care about bowel flore, last time she suggested that my wife schould have diet with low fibre to give rest to bowel for some time. So how soluble fibre fits to that?
 
We have checked gluten problems by tests and there is no problem with that. I never heard about flour. I will check it.
 
Greetings
Jarek

Post Edited (civilmonk) : 6/11/2010 7:54:41 AM (GMT-6)


civilmonk
New Member


Date Joined Jun 2010
Total Posts : 10
   Posted 6/11/2010 6:52 AM (GMT -7)   
Dear Shawn,

pancreas problem is no longer valid. That was my mistake.

Our home doctors, who visited me last days because of my illness, suggested usage of Sulpiryde. But decision to prescribe is in hands of our profesor of gastrology or bowel flore doctor.

My idea is to give to my wife some psychiatric drug to protect her bowel from psychosomatic problems during long-time terapy with diet and rebuiliding of bowel flore.

Interesting thing - our bowel flore doctor suggested last time to cleanup bowel (as before colonoscopy).

shawn12
Veteran Member


Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1293
   Posted 6/11/2010 10:34 AM (GMT -7)   
Civilmonk

The Sulpiryde might help and might help as a gastroprokinetic agent as well. It might also help if she has IBS as well and work on the brain gut axis functioning.

What are bowel flora doctors? What kind of doctors are they?

They might want to flush the bowel once and then start rebuilding good bacteria.

Not sure if that would help sibo though.
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