Should Lyme Patients Take MAGNESIUM?

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KeepHope
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   Posted 11/16/2008 1:49 AM (GMT -6)   
Yes or no?
x

Post Edited (KeepHope) : 3/8/2009 12:28:31 AM (GMT-7)


*Bella*
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   Posted 11/16/2008 3:49 AM (GMT -6)   
Hi KeepHope,

Whenever I have been in the E.R. they have given me IV magnesium for my PVC's (heart palpitations). It usually works for me. I will also take Magnesium Oxide when my PVC's get to be too much. This usually calms them down.

I think if there is a deficiency, you should definitely supplement the Magnesium. But there are some people with Lyme who thinks it does more harm. I've had several doctors, most Lyme Literate recommend it to me, so I guess it will affect everyone differently.

woodswalker
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   Posted 11/16/2008 8:40 AM (GMT -6)   
"Magnesium deficiency is very often present and quite severe. Hyperreflexia, muscle twitches, myocardial irritability, poor stamina and recurrent tight muscle spasms are clues to this deficiency. Magnesium is predominantly an intracellular ion, so blood level testing is of little value. Oral preparations are acceptable for maintenance, but those with severe deficiencies need additional, parenteral dosing: 1 gram IV or IM at least once a week until neuromuscular irritability has cleared."

ADVANCED TOPICS INLYME DISEASE DIAGNOSTIC HINTS AND TREATMENT
GUIDELINES FOR LYME AND OTHERTICK BORNE ILLNESSES
Fifteenth Edition Copyright September, 2005
JOSEPH J. BURRASCANO JR., M.D.MANAGING LYME DISEASE, 15th edition, September, 2005
Page 6 of 33 full text at http://www2.lymenet.org/domino/file.nsf/UID/guidelines
100mg doxy b.i.d. 42 days
Recently started Salt/C, grapefruit seed extract, COQ10, anti-inflammatory herbs, omega 3


Dowa
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   Posted 11/16/2008 12:20 PM (GMT -6)   
For someone who takes 800 mg daily, I am curious, for what reason would it be harmful to Lyme patients?? Thanks D

Sulma
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   Posted 11/17/2008 1:41 PM (GMT -6)   

It's important for everyone to understand that Borrelia feeds off magnesium, which is exactly why are so seriously deficient in that particular mineral.

 

One of the original treatments for Borreliosis was magnesium starvation, because it was surmised (correctly) that the dropping systemic mag levels were due to it being consumed by the infection itself. I agree with the contemporary treatment plan to supplement mag since a lot of pretty annoying and/or serious symptoms can occur when tissue mag levels get super low.

 

My take on mag supplemention is to take just enough to keep the arrhythmia and really bad muscle twitches at bay.  I feel like this is the best as I’m minimizing the feeding of the Borrelia while giving my body just enough to avoid serious deficiency issues.  I’m about 140 pounds and the sweet spot for me is about 100% of the RDA of elemental mag every other day. Be aware that the compound you take may have very widely varying amounts of elemental mag. Citrate is only 17% elemental mag, and malate not much more.


Dowa
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   Posted 11/17/2008 6:24 PM (GMT -6)   
Sulma: How about Magnesium Glycinate, is that good for absorption?? Thanks D

Sulma
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   Posted 11/17/2008 7:21 PM (GMT -6)   
Dowa said...
Sulma: How about Magnesium Glycinate, is that good for absorption?? Thanks D


wow you got me there, hermana. Never even heard of that one. You usually hear malate and citrate being talked about as the best absorbed orals, but I've done fine on a good quality oxide.

LymeinMD
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   Posted 11/18/2008 2:05 PM (GMT -6)   
I've had good success with Mag glycinate--helped with GI issues and with muscle pain, in fact, I think I'll start taking it again!

nefferdun
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   Posted 11/18/2008 10:40 PM (GMT -6)   
What about B12? I have read that a dificiency in this vitamin causes the same symptoms as lyme.

*Bella*
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   Posted 11/19/2008 1:47 AM (GMT -6)   
I know Dr. Burrascano recommends Mag Tab SR. I haven't tried that yet, but I'm going to pick some up.

nefferdun
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   Posted 11/19/2008 10:37 AM (GMT -6)   
If you need to save money I get magnesium citrate by the pound and then put it in capsules. I actually buy it for my horses. I get it from herbalcom.com (not associated with them). I also just mix it in some milk and drink it, as it has no taste. I need to get some more from the barn and keep up with it! It is so hard to down all the pills I am taking for this.

Martha's Vineyard
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   Posted 1/22/2009 12:52 PM (GMT -6)   
I am not allowed to take any at all. It screws up my whole protical. And it makes ABX not work as well as zinc
Read your papers on what not to take with your ABX
2004 in Martha's Vineyard me and my two daughters then 11 mos and 6 all got Lyme Disease. This was only known to us because we found the tiny ticks on us and we got very ill. My dog also got lyme and he went lame.
We have fought it for 4 years to no avail.
We all got it again this summer is Texas.
I am now in treatment in Scottsdale Arizona at Envita.

"The eyes cannot see for for what the mind does not know."


bcaring
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Total Posts : 346
   Posted 1/29/2009 12:04 PM (GMT -6)   
Can anyone cite any literature about lyme feeding off magnesium?

Thanks - Beth

kitty9309
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Total Posts : 163
   Posted 1/29/2009 1:45 PM (GMT -6)   
Not this this is all inclusive, but a search on PubMed pulls up nothing on Lyme/Borrelia and magnesium.
14 years undiagnosed Lyme. I had a bulls-eye rash following a camping trip to NC in 1994. Swollen knees and replapsing and remitting vertigo followed for the next 14 years. All Lyme tests negative. Could possibly be B. lonestari due to being bit in the South.
Just began treatment with low dose Minocycline and Benicar on 12/08.
TGF B1 and C4a very high indicating inflammation.


Sulma
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Date Joined Apr 2008
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   Posted 1/29/2009 2:24 PM (GMT -6)   
bcaring said...
Can anyone cite any literature about lyme feeding off magnesium?

Thanks - Beth


Good question, Beth. The conclusion that Bb feeds on mag came from the plunging levels found in patients with borreliosis. So many of us have come up extremely low in mag, with all these attendant health issues of mag deficiency, I think all the LLMD practitioners and treatment theorists concluded it must be the borrelia itself consuming it. Definitely it would be nice to see someone test that in a controlled setting.

bcaring
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Date Joined Feb 2006
Total Posts : 346
   Posted 1/29/2009 5:12 PM (GMT -6)   
Thanks Sulma,

I couldn't find anything either when I searched, hence my question. I take small amounts several times a week - a powdered form. I think I will stick with that at this time. No question it helps relax muscle spasms.

Beth

SickInCT
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Date Joined Nov 2008
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   Posted 1/31/2009 7:40 AM (GMT -6)   
nefferdun said...
What about B12? I have read that a dificiency in this vitamin causes the same symptoms as lyme.


When I started taking B12 I had a HUGE change in energy. My energy went from lethargic to thru the roof!


Ive tried many vitamins with no change but B12 WORKS! When your body has more energy it can run your other systems better!

LupnerRN
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Date Joined Sep 2008
Total Posts : 350
   Posted 1/31/2009 8:16 PM (GMT -6)   
I had a very low mag level when I was first diagnosed with Lyme.

My LLMD told me to specifically take mag citrate. That this form is most easily absorbed by the GI tract when it's got immune issues. Which we all have.

I found it at Costco in the liquid form for under $2 for a whole bottle. 800mg daily.

Also what woodswalker said is great about mag being a intracellur ion, and sometimes blood levels may look normal when they're not. And just like potassium, your heart doesn't like changes in usable mag levels. So if you have muscle twitching going on, imagine what your heart is doing.

I also read somewhere, sorry don't remember if it was Burrascano or not, that lyme or one of the co-infections eat magnesium up.

Eric, thanks for the b12 info. Im taking just a b complex.
11/07 symptoms start
7/4/08  IGenX LD positive,gluten sensitivity,low magn, low WBC's,+yeast/bacteria/tapeworm/roundworm, EBV,HHV,CMV,Parvo,
7/25/08 started on Biaxin
9/08 IGenX co-infections neg, but probable Bart, Bab, Erhl
11/08  Biaxin,Plaquenil,Cipro, Artemisinin,3 probiotics,Transfer Immune, Bcomplex,MultiVit,omega3,magnesium,
1/29/09  Added: Rifampin 600mg- Ehrl, Lomatium 15dropsBID-parvo, andrographis 15dropsBID (super yuck!)-LD, Alinia-cryptosporidium.   


sojourner
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   Posted 2/1/2009 12:05 AM (GMT -6)   
Magnesium deficiency is very often present and quite severe. Hyperreflexia, muscle twitches, myocardial irritability, poor stamina and recurrent tight muscle spasms are clues to this deficiency. Magnesium is predominantly an intracellular ion, so blood level testing is of little value. Oral preparations are acceptable for maintenance, but most need additional, parenteral dosing: 1 gram IV or IM at least once a week until neuromuscular irritability has cleared. -ILAD, Dr. B, Hints and Diagnostics

Certain minerals are depleted in chronic illness patients, such as zinc, magnesium, chromium and selenium. Some recommend up to 300 mcg/day sodium selenite, followed by lower doses. Vitamins and minerals should not be taken at the same time of day (3 hr difference) as antibiotics or antivirals (or oxygen therapy), because they can affect absorption. -Dr.S, ILAD, Advanced Professional Care/Personal Consult

J. R.observes that vegetarian patients sometimes eat a lot of pasta and grain, which may be easy to prepare, but are high in carbohydrates. She says that for Lyme patients, loading up on pasta and grain instead of protein is not a good idea, for many reasons. For example, the grains wash away magnesium, and she says that Lyme patients tend to have a magnesium deficiency. J.R, Lyme Disease Research Database/Cowden

~With Lyme Disease, Magnesium Deficiency is often a very important consideration. Clues that could indicate such a condition are: Hyper-reflexia, Muscle twitches, Myocardial irritability, Recurrent tight muscle spasms
~Since magnesium deficiency can cause Lyme encephalopathy of the brain, test for Serotonin and Ginkgo Biloba. Also, since neurally mediated hypotension (NMH) has been noted in some cases it would be wise to check each of the following: Electrolytes, Hydration, Sodium, Potassium
~Paying attention to these factors result in the lessening of fatigue, palpitations, wooziness; increase stamina. Solutions can be B12/Folic Acid and Mag/Cal/Potassium products. Dr. Z.R., Academy of Bio-Energetics

http://www.john-libbey-eurotext.fr/en/revues/bio_rech/mrh/e-docs/00/03/FD/D1/article.md - The proof in the pudding and the most valuable reference to answer the original question regarding magnesium.

Pathogens that feed off metals, minerals, nutrients and all the bad stuff in our culture's diet signifies all out war. All out war requires an artillery to gain control and overcome the enemy.

The main concern noted in research, studies and published papers is repeatedly the same. Take magnesium a minimum of three hours away from antibiotics or the absorption is influenced and interrupted. The only contraindication cited (which is why patients should seek advice from their physicians), is regarding those patients who may have an allergy to the supplement.

Otherwise, Magnesium is one of our weapons. http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ei=6CyFSZjiGNLjtgfR8cDRCQ&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=magnesium+deficiency+and+homeostasis&spell=1
There's plenty of research if worded seeking research, essays, published studies for mag deficiency and Borrelia; homeostasis.

Beth - http://www.pnas.org/content/100/26/15953.full - closest response for you. You'll have to do a find for Magnesium - its a long article and very scientific! It looks like there are a lot of variables that can lead to a magnesium or mineral deficiency in chronic illness even beyond a pathogen depleting it. The immune system is working overtime when fighting any infection; but particularly with a disseminated bacteria like this one and its co-infections, it makes sense that deficiencies are bound to result. The immune system is working overtime, and eventually for some, not able to respond at all b/c it has exhausted so much of it's 'fuel'. It's like a domino effect. There are so many things that can lead to this type of deficiency. Digestive tract absorption, vomiting, alcoholism, diarrhea, poor diet, kidney insufficiency. These just seem to set up a breeding ground for these pathogens and if they are the root cause of illness, so the circle begins.

Our integrative LLMDs teach that minimal amounts of mineral replacement are not effective, nor can the body achieve a level of balance while in treatment for Lyme b/c in its life cycle, it continues its feeding frenzy. You must administer enough for the body to have the supply necessary to nourish the immune system. This is the greater emphasis so as to awaken the immune response to fight. Withhold what the body needs and it remains in its lethargic or fatigued state b/c it does not have the resource to fight back. The goal is homeostasis. If this is an unfamiliar word, it means: The ability or tendency of an organism or cell to maintain internal equilibrium by adjusting its physiological processes.

Blessings,
Sojourner

Post Edited (sojourner) : 1/31/2009 10:15:19 PM (GMT-7)


IndiaBeth
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Date Joined Jul 2012
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   Posted 9/11/2012 11:57 AM (GMT -6)   
Martha's Vineyard said...
I am not allowed to take any at all. It screws up my whole protical. And it makes ABX not work as well as zinc
Read your papers on what not to take with your ABX


This is my concern. I have HORRIBLE muscle pain. Its really interrupting my daily life (walking, standing to make dinner, getting ready for work, working, etc) I would like to take Magnesium if it helps, but it seems like all the abx say- not to take magnesium (which is what epson salts is). What do I do? (I don't believe my levels from my blood tests were low)

Thanks for any imput.

Traveler
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   Posted 9/11/2012 4:31 PM (GMT -6)   
If you are really concerned about it interfering with absorption of your abx, then take it two hours after your abx. By then the abx is in your blood stream, so it can't interfere.

Almost all land that our crops are grown on are now depleted of magnesium, so everyone should supplement with magnesium, especially those who have tick-borne infections, as the infections use up a lot of magnesium, so we are particularly deficient.,
Treating with Acupuncture, Traditional & Modern Chinese Medicine & Western Herbs. Before tx, I had all but 20 of the symptoms on the "Master Symptom List" for Lyme disease.

"Absence of proof is not proof of absence" - Dr. Edwin Masters, great LLMD & researcher -RIP

Questions about what I've posted or just have questions? Please email me!!! Click on the blue envelope under my screen name

IndiaBeth
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   Posted 9/12/2012 4:56 PM (GMT -6)   
Thank you Traveler.

I also found this which makes me feel better too. I was trying to figure out how much I should take and how much was too much.

It is very rare to overdose on magnesium from food. However, people who ingest large amounts of milk of magnesia (as a laxative or antacid), epsom salts (as a laxative or tonic), or magnesium supplements may overdose, especially if they have kidney problems. Too much magnesium can cause serious health problems, including nausea, vomiting, severely lowered blood pressure, confusion, slowed heart rate, respiratory paralysis, deficiencies of other minerals, coma, cardiac arrhythmias, cariac arrest, and death.

More common side effects from magnesium include upset stomach and diarrhea.

Magnesium competes with calcium for absorption and can cause a calcium deficiency if calcium levels are already low. Some medications may lower magnesium levels in the body. These include chemotherapy drugs, diuretics, digoxin (Lanoxin), steroids, and certain antibiotics.

Drug interactions:
Antibiotics -- Taking magnesium supplements may reduce the absorption of quinolone antibiotics, tetracycline antibiotics, and nitrofurantoin (Macrodandin). Magnesium should be taken 1 hour before or 2 hours after taking these medications. Quinolone and tetracycline antibiotics include:

Ciprofloxacin (Cipro)
Moxifloxacin (Avelox)
Tetracycline (Sumycin)
Doxycycline (Vibramycin)
Minocycline (Minocin)


Read more: http://www.umm.edu/altmed/articles/magnesium-000313.htm#ixzz26ILZT85s
35yrs. Female. Diagnosed with Lyme '09.

PennyPru
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Date Joined Jul 2012
Total Posts : 149
   Posted 9/12/2012 7:17 PM (GMT -6)   
I thought this response was an interesting thing to consider from Buhner (my new healing muse :-) about Deficiencies and Lyme.... from his Q&A section...
http://buhnerhealinglyme.com/lyme/iron-and-magnesium-deficiency/

"Dear Stephen,
I continue to hear that certain vitamins and minerals actually feed lyme. And yet, most of us find ourselves extremely deficient in them. In my case I’m very low in iron and magnesium. What are your thoughts on having to repair a deficiency during lyme treatment? If you’re very low, would it make sense that the immune system will not perform to its full capacity unless these deficiencies are corrected to keep fighting lyme?

Stephen’s response:
Sigh. I don’t subscribe to that orientation. Essentially, ALL PARASTIC BACTERIA FEED ON CERTAIN SUBSTANCES FROM OUR BODIES, that is why they live in us and not in the wild in some pond. They have to get certain substances from us because they can’t make it themselves. The treatment then focuses on making sure the body is not depleted of those substances because YOU CAN’T LIVE WITHOUT THEM EITHER. Making sure that those levels are high will keep many symptoms at bay. You also, of course treat the bacteria themselves through other means. So, in essence. YOU ARE COMPLETELY CORRECT."
Penny4Them

Never give up, for that is just the place and time that the tide will turn.
Harriet Beecher Stowe

IndiaBeth
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   Posted 9/13/2012 1:24 PM (GMT -6)   
So what it looks like he is saying is to go ahead and get your levels up to where they should be, even if it means the buggers have more to feed off of.

I can see that. Because if you have a plant being attacked by bugs and depleting it, making it weak, you would want to use a good organic bug spray as well as replenish the soils nutrients.

Traveler
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Date Joined May 2007
Total Posts : 13226
   Posted 9/13/2012 4:38 PM (GMT -6)   
Good analogy, Indiabeth!!

Magnesium helps in so many ways in the body that we really do need it and it's already been established that we no longer get enough from our food, as the ground that it's grown on is now deficient.
Treating with Acupuncture, Traditional & Modern Chinese Medicine & Western Herbs. Before tx, I had all but 20 of the symptoms on the "Master Symptom List" for Lyme disease.

"Absence of proof is not proof of absence" - Dr. Edwin Masters, great LLMD & researcher -RIP

Questions about what I've posted or just have questions? Please email me!!! Click on the blue envelope under my screen name
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