why so many years worth of antibiotics?

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gracietiger
Regular Member


Date Joined Dec 2008
Total Posts : 129
   Posted 12/27/2008 8:21 PM (GMT -6)   
one of my friend's fathers is a doctor - very liberal-minded, progressive... he believes in chronic lyme, but does not believe in the long-term (over six months) use of antibiotics. i am just wondering why antibiotics are required for such long term? he said there is not scientific evidence to back its use up. which doesn't mean much to me if there were not scientific tests even conducted (which seem to be lacking with lymes). i also know that with several bacterial infections, like syphilis, antibiotics may be required for a year or more.
so just wondering, why does lymes take such a long time to treat? why doesn't six months wipe out the bacteria?

bablymers
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Date Joined Oct 2006
Total Posts : 1458
   Posted 12/28/2008 3:30 AM (GMT -6)   
Hi gracietiger,

To properly answer your question would take a long, scientifically written paper! I will try to give you a short version of some of the things you might read about in the literature. Lyme diagnosis and treatments (as well as coinfections) are very controversial because there is a great need for more research to answer all the questions and theories that the medical community has about these diseases. Some doctors think patients experience symptoms because of an actual ongoing, current infection, therefor requiring continual treatment with antibiotics in an attempt to kill the infection. Other doctors think that the "germs" are killed by a short course of drugs, but the patient continues to experience symptoms due to built up toxins that the body could not get rid of, therefor more drugs are not necessary. Or they think the symptoms are due to some other cause, like an autoimmune disease, or other medical problem. Other docs think it's "all in our heads".

There are multiple strains of each of these bacteria and coinfections, and seemingly an endless "soup mix" that is possible in each of us. There are viruses that can exchange their DNA with the bacteria and this can actually change the traits of the "germs". This complicates treatment. The more "germs" that jump into the "game", the more complicated it gets.

These bacteria are considered to be "stealth pathogens". They take on several different forms and each form helps them to evade our immune systems and drugs. Drugs are often switched around to try and chase each of these forms wherever they are hiding out. It is difficult to figure out which drug each form is sensitive to, and the forms can change quickly in response to the treatment.

Many doctors are concerned about the creation of "superbugs" due to the overuse, misuse, or long term use of antibiotics in patients. Also, the medical community has seen a lot of relapses even after long term use of drugs, making them suspicious that something else is going on.

You mentioned syphilis and it's long treatment time. Lyme (Borrelia) is also a spirochete. They're tough.

These are just a few of the reasons this group of diseases is complicated and difficult to treat. You will read about many more as you research and educate yourself. I hope this helps. Best wishes. bablymers mom

Post Edited (bablymers) : 12/28/2008 2:33:23 AM (GMT-7)


JELAINEP
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Date Joined Sep 2007
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   Posted 12/28/2008 6:02 AM (GMT -6)   
because the little buggers won't die.
Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has.  - Margaret Meade
06/00- The beginning, 08/01-LD positive, 10/01- Igenex and CDC LD positive, 10/02-LD positive, 11/03-LD positive, 10/07-Bartonella positive, CD57=3 Current Rx's 11/12/08: Wellbutrin 300mg, Paxil 60mg, Xanax 5mg, Rozerem 8mg, Darvocet, Acidophilus, Rifampin 600mg, Levaquin 500mg, Lyrica 150 to 300mg, Skelexa, Restoril
Medicare/SSDI theme song - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bd2B6SjMh_w 
"How much more can I take?", songhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gHiR1xeOSs
 


Deejavu
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Date Joined Aug 2005
Total Posts : 4296
   Posted 12/28/2008 8:42 AM (GMT -6)   
Because of the majority of people are brainwashed into thinking that long term antibiotics are the only way to go when in fact long term use in my opinion does more harm than good.   To keep putting poisons in one's body to go after bacteria's?   There are better methods in my opinion to get better again, I don't think people research enough, become their own advocate, they just follow along and I find that very sad indeed.
 
Denise
It's all about the Immune System mixed with a large dose of Positive Thinking and Daily Detoxing
 
This song is about my years with chronic lyme since 1995 and being in remission for over 3 years:
 
 


gracietiger
Regular Member


Date Joined Dec 2008
Total Posts : 129
   Posted 12/28/2008 10:46 AM (GMT -6)   
thanks for your insight, guys. it's amazing how so many people have very different opinions on this disease.
i have a few questions more. if a shorter term use of antibiotics can kill all the bacteria, and toxins are what is left over, why are antibiotics used to rid the body of its toxins?
also, for those who do not support the long-term use of antibiotics, what do you do to further treat your illness? deejavu, what have you done and where did you get your information? did you ever use antibiotics?
and, did those of you who take a long term course of antibiotics believe that that was the only option? that you were rid of lyme disease after the antibiotics, and would not have been if you had stopped after six months or so?
thanks again, everyone's perspectives are very insightful.

Deejavu
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Date Joined Aug 2005
Total Posts : 4296
   Posted 12/28/2008 11:03 AM (GMT -6)   
Hi Gracietiger,
 
I can only talk about my experiences.  I knew I had lyme for many years but I couldn't get anyone to believe me until I found a nurse I knew who took blood from my finger and used dark field microscopy and we watched my spirochetes, I was fascinated!  So not knowing much about lyme disease at that time, I went to a LLMD and he put me on Doxy for 8 months.  I kept telling myself I was getting better but truth be told, I was fooling myself. 
 
Four years later after trying all sorts of herbs, etc. I kept researching, reading, learning.   I watched others stay on long term antibiotics and not get better.  I said to myself "nope, not for me".   A friend told me about a book that came out by Dr. David Jernigan called "Beating Lyme Disease" and I read portions of it and it all made so much sense to me.  This doctor had chronic lyme himself and I liked what he had to say.  He developed a "Healing at Home" protocol that I followed for about 8 months and I have been in remission since. 
 
As far as toxins, lyme bacteria's do die, with or without antibiotics and toxins are left over.  I believe the cause of most everyone's problems are from those toxins and that heavy detoxing on a daily basis is very much needed to rid the body of these toxins.  I still continue to detox on a daily basis to keep my immune system strong.  Toxins are poisons and I don't want them in my body!
 
I enjoy reading the Townsend Letters and you may appreciate some of this information as well:
 
 
 
I also love helping others as I made myself a promise when I was sick that if I ever got better I would never forget my pain and misery and help others, especially the ones that are open minded and are capable of thinking "outside the box".
 
Hope this helps,
Denise
It's all about the Immune System mixed with a large dose of Positive Thinking and Daily Detoxing
 
This song is about my years with chronic lyme since 1995 and being in remission for over 3 years:
 
 


Staris
Regular Member


Date Joined Dec 2008
Total Posts : 20
   Posted 12/28/2008 11:51 AM (GMT -6)   
There is significant peer reviewed clinical research to show lyme is not treated with short courses of antibiotics.  Certain areas of the medical community choose to ignore them or interperit results to further their position. More double blind studies like Fallons in humans are needed but there is still good info out there.
 
A few examples:
 
"Our results suggest that pleomorphic forms, including cystic forms of Borrelia burgdorferi may persist in the brain and may explain the long latent stage and persisting infection in Lyme neuroborreliosis. The identification of these extra- or intracellular atypical, cystic and granular forms of Borrelia burgdorferi is essential for the histopathological diagnosis of Lyme disease as they may indicate chronic Borrelia infection, even in cases where the typical coiled spirochetes are apparently absent. In analogy to Treponema pallidum, Borrelia burgdorferi can persist in the brain in Lyme neuroborreliosis and may initiate and sustain chronic inflammation and tissue damage."
 
70+ examples in varying models.  A very good resource (esp. for fighting insurance).
 
 
 
The info is out there - it is being ignored for who knows why.  That is why you need to be your own advocae and find a caring dr. to help.
 
 

Dowa
Veteran Member


Date Joined Sep 2008
Total Posts : 1120
   Posted 12/28/2008 12:14 PM (GMT -6)   
Denise: When you say "heavy daily detox" what are your methods of detox?  Is sauna a part of your detox program?   D

bablymers
Veteran Member


Date Joined Oct 2006
Total Posts : 1458
   Posted 12/28/2008 12:40 PM (GMT -6)   
Hi Dowa, If you go to the topic "The Basics, Newbies check this out" located near the top of the first page of this forum, and go to page two, you will find a post by Deejavu (Denise). There is an explanation of some of the things she uses posted there.

kitty9309
Regular Member


Date Joined Oct 2008
Total Posts : 163
   Posted 12/28/2008 1:11 PM (GMT -6)   
The organism that causes Lyme- Borrelia- takes a very long time to replicate- about 12 to 24 hours.
Most other common bacteria, like strep and staph, replicate faster- several minutes.

Other bacteria with slow replication times- like TB and Syphilis- are treated for much longer peroids of up to 18 months. Many do not understand the Lyme shares this slow replication time.

Proper treatment must bracket the entire replication cycle, or there will still be viable organisms present and can increase in numbers to cause further symptoms.

There are so many other variables as well- Borrelia are able to assume a few different shapes and hide from the immune system, the patient's immune system may not be strong enough to fight the infection and so on.

If only from the standpoint that Lyme bacteria take a very long time to replicate, then treatment needs to be longer than the standard for other infections caused by bacteria, like Strep throat, pneumonia, and ear infections.

I am sure I rambled with run on sentences and bad grammer, but I hope my point is clear.

~Kitty

gracietiger
Regular Member


Date Joined Dec 2008
Total Posts : 129
   Posted 12/28/2008 8:51 PM (GMT -6)   
this is such a great discussion, thank you for sharing your information. i am really excited to do more research on all of this.
deejavu, i have a couple of questions. when i first got sick, two years ago, i had just returned from living in rural africa. i drank well water with dead rats in it! i went from being completely healthy, no medical problems ever, to really sick. i have never really achieved a diagnosis, though i have been loosely told i have "pots" - a type of autonomic nervous system dysfunction. i have researched quite a bit on toxin build-up, and felt that was largely possibly for my illness. i like the theory that the toxins from lyme disease can make one sicker, and need to be cleansed, but i am also torn by the other information, like what was provided, about lyme disease's ability to "hide" and remain in the brain region for longer periods of time.
so this is what i am wondering about your case. you indicated that you saw your spirochetes under a microscope, after having lyme's for a long time. but you also say that you believe that lyme's will clear up with or without antibiotics. so i am not trying to come at you, at all, i don't want this to be misunderstood, but i am hoping you can explain this theory more because it seems a little contradictory to me that you would see the spirochetes, which you had for a long time, but that you also believe that the spirochetes would die on their own. how long would it take for them to die on their own? if it takes as long as you were sick, wouldn't one then need antibiotics?
i hopw this makes sense. again, i am merely really curious to these arguments, and the course that i plan to take. i really really don't like the idea of long-term antibiotis, and would much prefer more holistic methods. but at some point, i also wonder if i need to let medicine do its thing..
thanks again, so much.

Deejavu
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Date Joined Aug 2005
Total Posts : 4296
   Posted 12/28/2008 9:17 PM (GMT -6)   
Hi Gracietiger,
 
So sorry you drank well water with dead rats in it, ewww!   Have you thought about getting tested by IgeneX? 
 
I edited my response because I feel I didn't give a full explanation. 
 
When a person is extremely healthy, their own body kills the lyme spirochetes without any extra help which is the ideal situation.   I have a gut feeling that I was born with lyme passed from my mother but my immune system killed the bacteria's without any help.
 
However, when I was bit (skin biopsies show it was a spider bite that infected me, not a tick) not to mention at that time I was going through some extremely stressful times that compromised my immune system thus weakening it so my body couldn't kill the lyme bacterias on it's own, I needed help.
 
As I wrote before, I first went to a LLMD who put me on Doxy and at that time I knew nothing about detoxing.  After the doctor stopped the Doxy (he stopped it at 6 months but I had refills) for fear of my organs getting damaged, I was left with nothing to take so that's when I decided to research on my own.  That's when I joined a different lyme forum and found out about Dr. Jernigan's protocol.  This was 4 years later.
 
Dr. J's theory is to restore the body to it's original state before one became ill and that's exactly what I did.  But his protocol is much more complicated then that.   It's work as it's just not about taking botanicals, it's addressing not only the lyme bacteria's but one's emotional state and spirit as well.  This protocol takes lots of discipline.
 
Some people prefer chemical antibiotics, some prefer using natural botanicals like I did.  After all, what are most chemical antibiotics made from?  Plant material.  It only made sense to me to skip the chemicals and use botanticals made from plant materials.
 
Oh, it's not a theory about toxins, that a fact.  Plenty of great articles out there as well as books.   We live in a very toxic world these days and even the most healthiest people detox to keep themselves healthy.
 
Did you read the links I put in my previous post?  Just curious..  I don't view this as an argument, I view it as different points of view.    I am just thrilled that I am better and wish everyone here was better too!  
 
Denise

It's all about the Immune System mixed with a large dose of Positive Thinking and Daily Detoxing
 
This song is about my years with chronic lyme since 1995 and being in remission for over 3 years:
 
 

Post Edited (Deejavu) : 12/29/2008 3:14:29 AM (GMT-7)


gracietiger
Regular Member


Date Joined Dec 2008
Total Posts : 129
   Posted 12/29/2008 10:08 PM (GMT -6)   
thanks so much for sharing your perspectives, denise. i am really interested in learning more about the alternatives that you have used. detoxing certainly doesn't hurt anyone, so it's something that i believe should be done whether or not long-term antibiotics are going to be used. i'm going to search now for some of your previous posts about the protocol that you mention.

LF1980
Regular Member


Date Joined Jul 2008
Total Posts : 78
   Posted 2/2/2009 7:52 PM (GMT -6)   
The reason why lyme is so difficult to treat and the reason why years of antibiotics are needed is because the bacteria is a biofilm - the bacteria have the capability to grow within colonies (biofilms) that protects them from adverse environmental factors. Its like it forms a protective coating around itself to protect is from anything that can harm it, like antibiotics. A doctor in NY provided that the lyme bacteria is a biofilm - he has images of it in a colony with the protective cover over it and documenation to back it all up - it was a major breakthrough. This is why long term antibiotic therapy is essential in many cases. Anyone who disagrees with long term antibiotic treatment do not understand this bacteria. The pros outweigh the cons but as always, treatment is each individuals choice. I happen to beleive that long term antibiotic therapy is the only way to be rid of the disease. In India they are testing out stem cell replacement as another possible treatment that seems to work for some.
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