Houttuynia for Bartonella?

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CherylSue
Regular Member


Date Joined Jul 2007
Total Posts : 208
   Posted 1/25/2009 6:15 PM (GMT -6)   
Has anybody used Houttuynia (HH) one of Dr. Z's chinese herbs for bartonella with any success? How much did you take? Did you herx? Did you build up to it? How long were you on it?

Thanks,
CherylSue

phsinvent
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Date Joined Aug 2006
Total Posts : 1136
   Posted 1/26/2009 11:31 AM (GMT -6)   

Regular Houttuynia such as ones found at www.1stchineseherbs.com or elsewhere are not made the same way as the stuff that www.hepapro.com imports for dr zhangs herbs. In my opinion, zhangs is way overpriced. 15-20 capsules per day should work great but who could afford that. I happened to stumble upon their supplier in china and they are the only outfit that makes this herbal 1:9 extract the correct way. They preserve every chemical that the plant contains, mainly the crystalline aledehyde that forms on the outter surface of the leaves. This is where the fish smell comes from.

All other companies making this herbal extract lose all of the important compounds. You can even smell, taste and feel the difference of other forms of yu xing cao versus hepapros. So to answer your queston, i have not found an alternative to zhangs version. They are the exact same plant extract but missing key componants that are lost due to different extraction processes. If you find an alternative to zhangs that tastes like dead fish on the beach and makes you want to throw up. let me know. All the other ones i've found taste more like cinnamon.


KO-LD
Veteran Member


Date Joined Aug 2007
Total Posts : 887
   Posted 1/27/2009 10:50 AM (GMT -6)   
CherylSue,
I never tested pos for Bartonella, but suspect I might have it.  I have been on Zhang's for 4 1/2 months and have seen progress.  The foot pain is gone now (one of the things I thought might be Bart related).  I plan on having my reg doctor do a CD57 the end of feb to see if it has gone up.  I had one done when I was first diagnosed.
KO
Physinvent, Are you doing Zhang's?  If so what do you think of it?
KO
2001 symptoms started:
Tingling in fingers and toes both sides, not tested at that time for LD
2007 Summer tested pos. WB, diagnosed with LD, tested neg for co-infections thru Igenex
Abx - Doxy 100mg 2x/day for 3 weeks (before diagnosis)
Amoxicillin 1gm 2x/day for 1 month
Amoxicillin 1gm 3x/day with Probenecid 500mg 2x/day  5 months 
Currently on Dr. Zhang's protocol 


phsinvent
Veteran Member


Date Joined Aug 2006
Total Posts : 1136
   Posted 1/27/2009 11:58 AM (GMT -6)   
I'm not doing any zhangs. I would have done it if the price was much lower. I think that it can be effective for some but in more severe cases, modern medicine might be the first choice. I also think that it would take more than 3 hh capsules per day. Anything higher could be more effective but would cost a fortune.

Chris L
Regular Member


Date Joined Aug 2008
Total Posts : 189
   Posted 1/27/2009 8:44 PM (GMT -6)   

I'm kind of up in the air for this.  HH seems like a good choice for treating Bartonella based on the reseach I have done.  That being said, I keep reading that the Bartonella specific ABX are questionable at least.  Anyone have more input on this...based on history of use for either the bart ABX or HH for bart?

 

Thanks!


Sulma
Regular Member


Date Joined Apr 2008
Total Posts : 366
   Posted 1/28/2009 7:48 PM (GMT -6)   
phsinvent said...
Regular Houttuynia such as ones found at www.1stchineseherbs.com or elsewhere are not made the same way as the stuff that www.hepapro.com imports for dr zhangs herbs. In my opinion, zhangs is way overpriced. 15-20 capsules per day should work great but who could afford that. I happened to stumble upon their supplier in china and they are the only outfit that makes this herbal 1:9 extract the correct way. They preserve every chemical that the plant contains, mainly the crystalline aledehyde that forms on the outter surface of the leaves. This is where the fish smell comes from.

All other companies making this herbal extract lose all of the important compounds. You can even smell, taste and feel the difference of other forms of yu xing cao versus hepapros. So to answer your queston, i have not found an alternative to zhangs version. They are the exact same plant extract but missing key componants that are lost due to different extraction processes. If you find an alternative to zhangs that tastes like dead fish on the beach and makes you want to throw up. let me know. All the other ones i've found taste more like cinnamon.


Where's the barrier to ordering directly from hepa's chinese supplier?

Sulma
Regular Member


Date Joined Apr 2008
Total Posts : 366
   Posted 1/28/2009 7:57 PM (GMT -6)   
Chris L said...
I'm kind of up in the air for this. HH seems like a good choice for treating Bartonella based on the reseach I have done. That being said, I keep reading that the Bartonella specific ABX are questionable at least. Anyone have more input on this...based on history of use for either the bart ABX or HH for bart?



Thanks!


Levaquin seems to hit Bart like a sledgehammer. Effective, clearly, intolerable sides with longer term use, possibly. Based on my own reading and my personal experience with both prescription and nutraceutical approaches, I think the best treatment plan for bart might be short, intensive cycles of stuff like Levaquin alternating with longer cycles of less deleterious stuff like HH caps. Eventually when the switch back to prescriptions drugs no longer triggers any die-off symptoms, go to HH for continued support deep into the asymptomic range. Remember it's in your bone marrow. You'll need support for a very long time.

phsinvent
Veteran Member


Date Joined Aug 2006
Total Posts : 1136
   Posted 1/29/2009 11:28 AM (GMT -6)   
$ was the barrier with the correctly manufactured hh extract. I wasn't going to invest in something that isn't proven to offer the best outcome. I think the minimum was a 40 kilo pallet costing about $5,000. This was the raw extract, which you would have to further encapsulate. That worked out to be 90 cents per 30 caps, add another 40 cents for label and container. So you can see how much hepapro and zhang are making. $1.30 per bottle in cost. That is what turns me off to zhangs herbs. Overpriced in my opinion.

Sulma
Regular Member


Date Joined Apr 2008
Total Posts : 366
   Posted 1/29/2009 2:37 PM (GMT -6)   
phsinvent said...
$ was the barrier with the correctly manufactured hh extract. I wasn't going to invest in something that isn't proven to offer the best outcome. I think the minimum was a 40 kilo pallet costing about $5,000. This was the raw extract, which you would have to further encapsulate. That worked out to be 90 cents per 30 caps, add another 40 cents for label and container. So you can see how much hepapro and zhang are making. $1.30 per bottle in cost. That is what turns me off to zhangs herbs. Overpriced in my opinion.


Sorry I did assume there was a minimum purchase for a wholesaler, but wasn't thinking of that as a barrier. I was thinking of a group buy as a solution. So Hepa's cost is only $1.30 for the 11 grams they package per bottle? Would you share the supplier's name?

phsinvent
Veteran Member


Date Joined Aug 2006
Total Posts : 1136
   Posted 1/30/2009 2:14 PM (GMT -6)   
I'm in negotiations with this manufacture about a smaller kilogram purchase. I'll keep everyone posted.

Caldonia Sun
Regular Member


Date Joined Aug 2009
Total Posts : 308
   Posted 10/31/2011 9:51 PM (GMT -6)   
Bumping this to say that the houttuynia from 1stchineseherbs.com DOES taste like dead fish and is quite gross.

Traveler
Forum Moderator


Date Joined May 2007
Total Posts : 14856
   Posted 11/1/2011 11:02 AM (GMT -6)   
Oh my< Caldonia Sun!! Sure makes me glad I get mine from my Acu doc!!! Oh ew!!!
When my tea is made, it quite literally tastes very similar to a weak black tea (regular tea).
Co-Moderator, Lyme Disease ;)

Treating with Acupuncture, Traditional & Modern Chinese Medicine & Western Herbs. Before tx, I had all but 20 of the symptoms on the "Master Symptom List"

"Absence of proof is not proof of absence" - Dr. Edwin Masters, great LLMD & researcher -RIP

I break up my post because my eyes have been effected by TBI's as well, making long paragraphs very hard to read.

Caldonia Sun
Regular Member


Date Joined Aug 2009
Total Posts : 308
   Posted 11/1/2011 6:29 PM (GMT -6)   
I have the powdered herb and just put a spoon in hot water and down it. Hoping it helps ....

Traveler
Forum Moderator


Date Joined May 2007
Total Posts : 14856
   Posted 11/1/2011 8:33 PM (GMT -6)   
Oh, I've been using the whole herb and making a tea out of it. How long have you been taking this?

It was pretty rough getting started on it, it took about a month just for me to be able to build up to the lowest dose! It's been bringing out all of my bart symptoms, so I do believe it's doing it's job! I've been taking it for about 2 1/2 - 3 months now.

I hope you get some results too!!
Co-Moderator, Lyme Disease ;)

Treating with Acupuncture, Traditional & Modern Chinese Medicine & Western Herbs. Before tx, I had all but 20 of the symptoms on the "Master Symptom List"

"Absence of proof is not proof of absence" - Dr. Edwin Masters, great LLMD & researcher -RIP

I break up my post because my eyes have been effected by TBI's as well, making long paragraphs very hard to read.

springsjean
Forum Moderator


Date Joined Mar 2009
Total Posts : 2050
   Posted 4/26/2013 12:06 PM (GMT -6)   
Trav - HI!! Are you still using the HH for bart? I am so worried about this neuropathy pain worsening and can't for the life of me figure out if it is lyme damage or active bart. Thanks. Hope all is well.
Lyme, HME, HGE, bartonella. 4+ years undiag. despite 10 drs.
Current meds: folbic, neurontin, cymbalta, plaq. and roxid Prior meds: bactrim, doryx, amantadine, amox, minocycline, tetracy. IV refused by ins. Supplements: boluoke, alpha lipoic acid, AG immune, magnesium, milk thistle, resistant microbes, cats claw
FEELING GREAT THESE DAYS! Hang in there - it does get better.

Traveler
Forum Moderator


Date Joined May 2007
Total Posts : 14856
   Posted 4/26/2013 6:10 PM (GMT -6)   
Hi Springsjean! Silly, you could have emailed me!! smilewinkgrin
No, I haven't needed to use the Houttuynia since I quit the first time! It took care of my Bart in 6 months!

I'm so sorry to hear of the issues that you are still having! I do hope that you figure out what it is that's causing this and get it treated soon!

I'm now in my 15th weeks without any treatments and am doing very well! We've got baby goats running all over the place!!! turn LOL!! Thanks for asking!
Treating with Acupuncture, Traditional & Modern Chinese Medicine & Western Herbs. Before tx, I had all but 20 of the symptoms on the "Master Symptom List" for Lyme disease.

"Absence of proof is not proof of absence" - Dr. Edwin Masters, great LLMD & researcher -RIP

Questions about what I've posted or just have questions? Please email me!!! Click on the blue envelope under my screen name

thrive
Regular Member


Date Joined Feb 2013
Total Posts : 140
   Posted 4/26/2013 9:33 PM (GMT -6)   
Can someone tell me where is a good place to get this? Believe I may have bartonella and wouldn't mind trying this remedy.

Traveler
Forum Moderator


Date Joined May 2007
Total Posts : 14856
   Posted 4/27/2013 10:36 AM (GMT -6)   
I got my Houttuynia from my practitioner, but 1st Chinese herbs has the whole leaf herb as well. Please, please use great caution when starting this herb!! It has proven to be quite powerful for many and can bring on horrible herxes! Start off with a diluted tea on only use one or two doses until you see how well your body can tolerate this!!!!!

Please read how I started on this medicinal tea and/or go to a Holistic Practitioner to help you get through the "start up".
Treating with Acupuncture, Traditional & Modern Chinese Medicine & Western Herbs. Before tx, I had all but 20 of the symptoms on the "Master Symptom List" for Lyme disease.

"Absence of proof is not proof of absence" - Dr. Edwin Masters, great LLMD & researcher -RIP

Questions about what I've posted or just have questions? Please email me!!! Click on the blue envelope under my screen name

briggadoon
New Member


Date Joined Jan 2013
Total Posts : 4
   Posted 4/28/2013 4:49 PM (GMT -6)   
You can get bulk houttuynia powder from _______________. Houttuynia capsules or tincture are available from ______________.

Post Edited By Moderator (Traveler) : 4/29/2013 6:18:36 AM (GMT-6)


Traveler
Forum Moderator


Date Joined May 2007
Total Posts : 14856
   Posted 4/29/2013 7:17 AM (GMT -6)   
Briggadoon,
Please see this thread for an explanation on why I edited your posts:
www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=30&m=2695915&g=2715489#m2715489
Treating with Acupuncture, Traditional & Modern Chinese Medicine & Western Herbs. Before tx, I had all but 20 of the symptoms on the "Master Symptom List" for Lyme disease.

"Absence of proof is not proof of absence" - Dr. Edwin Masters, great LLMD & researcher -RIP

Questions about what I've posted or just have questions? Please email me!!! Click on the blue envelope under my screen name
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