Amino acids Arginine and Glutamic Acid, bad for us?

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Sulma
Regular Member


Date Joined Apr 2008
Total Posts : 366
   Posted 2/16/2009 8:58 AM (GMT -6)   
Have you guys read that these aminos are considered bad for LD patients? (We had a thread a few months ago that touched on this topic) They are believed to support the growth of the bacteria. I'm not sure I believe they are things we should avoid, or even minimize.  I'm curious though about everyone's complete protein intake and if it seems to effect your symptoms.
 
Complete proteins are ones that include all the essential amino acids in amounts best suited for tissue repair in humans.  Stuff like soy, milk, eggs, all meat, and nuts are examples of complete proteins.  These are the foods highest in Arginine and Glutamic Acid. Rice, potatoes, and most all vegetables are low in these aminos.  I consume probably about 100 grams a day of complete proteins, mostly in the form of egg whites and whey powder. I function pretty well, but since I've followed a relatively high protein diet since before I first got sick 37 months ago I can't say if I'd be less symptomatic on a lower protein diet.
 
Please share info about your diets.  Most helpful I think would be anyone who's gone from a high to low protein diet, or vice versa, and seen changes in their condition.  :-)

Dowa
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Date Joined Sep 2008
Total Posts : 1120
   Posted 2/16/2009 2:43 PM (GMT -6)   
I actually do better on a high protein diet. I mean we are told to avoid grains such as wheat, rice, oats, etc and anything sweet,  so what in the world are we supposed to eat anyway? lol

Sulma
Regular Member


Date Joined Apr 2008
Total Posts : 366
   Posted 2/17/2009 6:19 PM (GMT -6)   
Dowa said...
I actually do better on a high protein diet. I mean we are told to avoid grains such as wheat, rice, oats, etc and anything sweet, so what in the world are we supposed to eat anyway? lol


I feel your frustration. My husband and I were saying the same thing the other night, "What the heck am I supposed to eat!?"

Dowa, tell me more please about what you mean by "high protein" and in what ways do you feel better? What proteins do you consume, what amount, and how many times a day?

Dowa
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Date Joined Sep 2008
Total Posts : 1120
   Posted 2/17/2009 8:49 PM (GMT -6)   
I was also sick from toxic mold so I went on a mold-free diet which excludes grains, sweets and fruit. I dont eat red meat so that left me with poultry, fish and vegetables. I do eat yogurt, I know some on here say that is not good. I generally have yogurt for breakfast, fish like salmon or tuna (or chicken) on salad greens and for dinner, fish or chicken with LOTS of steamed vegetables. Thats it. So if I were to cut down on the protein, that would not leave me much to eat! When I eliminated the grains I felt better almost immediately with much less fatigue. Occasionally I will have a rice product like tortillas made from brown rice. I have always been a healthy eater and I love to cook so this diet was not that much of a change for me.   D

Sulma
Regular Member


Date Joined Apr 2008
Total Posts : 366
   Posted 2/19/2009 10:19 AM (GMT -6)   
Dowa said...
I was also sick from toxic mold so I went on a mold-free diet which excludes grains, sweets and fruit. I dont eat red meat so that left me with poultry, fish and vegetables. I do eat yogurt, I know some on here say that is not good. I generally have yogurt for breakfast, fish like salmon or tuna (or chicken) on salad greens and for dinner, fish or chicken with LOTS of steamed vegetables. Thats it. So if I were to cut down on the protein, that would not leave me much to eat! When I eliminated the grains I felt better almost immediately with much less fatigue. Occasionally I will have a rice product like tortillas made from brown rice. I have always been a healthy eater and I love to cook so this diet was not that much of a change for me.   D

Thanks for sharing, Dowa.  You don't mention eggs, and I'm assuming you probably don't eat poultry or fish for breakfast, so it sounds like you eat some complete protein twice each day. 

It'd be interesting to hear from someone who'd been on a high protein diet, then lowered or eliminated most complete protein sources, and what changes may have occured in their symptoms.  I wish others would share since this kind of anecdotal information could benefit us.  


Razzle
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Date Joined Aug 2007
Total Posts : 4399
   Posted 2/19/2009 5:18 PM (GMT -6)   
I've always done best on a very low protein diet. However, I have genetic variances that make it harder for my body to break down sulfur amino acids, which may be contributory to why I feel better with lower protein foods.
-Razzle
Chronic Lyme Disease, Gluten & Sulfite Sensitivity, Many Food/Inhalant/Medication Allergies & Intolerances, Asthma, Gut issues (dysmotility, non-specific inflammation), UCTD ("Secondary Lupus-Like Syndrome"), Osteoporosis, Anemia, Lymphopenia, intermittant Pancytopenia, chronic malabsorption/malnutrition, etc.; G Tube; Currently TPN-dependent.
Meds:  Zofran, Pulmicort, Heparin (to flush PICC line), IV Cipro (for G-tube site infection).


Sulma
Regular Member


Date Joined Apr 2008
Total Posts : 366
   Posted 2/20/2009 9:38 AM (GMT -6)   
Razzle said...
I've always done best on a very low protein diet. However, I have genetic variances that make it harder for my body to break down sulfur amino acids, which may be contributory to why I feel better with lower protein foods.

 Razzle, you're saying you felt better on a low protein diet even before you got Lyme, correct?

Sulma
Regular Member


Date Joined Apr 2008
Total Posts : 366
   Posted 2/20/2009 9:43 AM (GMT -6)   
KeepHope said...
Yes there was talk and I am told to keep away from l arginine type foods. And as well to take up to 3 grams of L Lysine which can and will counteract that.
I have not looked into the exact mechanism or why but it is related to the Bart like infections we are treating.

I take the L Lysine and I do have a list of foods that are high on the scale to keep at a low rate but I would not say you should have to eliminate them..

My mother ate a handful or two or three of almonds a day. She has cancer. I told her of this and almonds is high on the list. She stopped doing it and comment on how much better she felt?

Go figure there too.

Just something to think about and research and ask you doctor too? But some docs seems to say the opposite about these sorts of things. LIke magnesium.. You know?

I know, exactly. Just like the magnesium.  I've heard a few Lyme treatment theorists say a high protein diet is advisable, but now we hear this.  It's really pretty annoying!  That's why I'm hoping we, the folks in the trenches, can figure this out based on what's worked for us. Do you think the lysine may be helping?  
 
Keephope I've read that gingko biloba facilitates the body's natural mechanism for clearing out glutamic acid, and that the excess build-up of it causes foggyness even in healthy people. I'm gonna give it a shot first of the month when I have some money to buy more supplements.  Brain fog is my worst symptom and it'd be great to find something affordable that helps.

Razzle
Veteran Member


Date Joined Aug 2007
Total Posts : 4399
   Posted 2/20/2009 2:49 PM (GMT -6)   
Sulma,

I don't know when I got Lyme, but the Lyme-Literate doctors I've seen have all told me either it is congenital or I got it when I was 4 years old (the wandering joint pain started at age 5, and the suspected vector, a red fire ant, bit me when I was 4). So I can't answer the question of whether or not I felt better on low protein diet before getting Lyme... My Mom tells me I was difficult to feed as an infant, so I guess my GI system has always been finicky.  NutriGenomic tests have revealed the genetic variances that mess with sulfur amino acid metabolism, which just confirms what I had figured out when I was in high school that the protein-rich foods were a problem for me.

Take care,


-Razzle
Chronic Lyme Disease, Gluten & Sulfite Sensitivity, Many Food/Inhalant/Medication Allergies & Intolerances, Asthma, Gut issues (dysmotility, non-specific inflammation), UCTD ("Secondary Lupus-Like Syndrome"), Osteoporosis, Anemia, Lymphopenia, intermittant Pancytopenia, chronic malabsorption/malnutrition, etc.; G Tube; Currently TPN-dependent.
Meds:  Zofran, Pulmicort, Heparin (to flush PICC line), IV Cipro (for G-tube site infection).

Post Edited (Razzle) : 2/20/2009 1:55:59 PM (GMT-7)


Sulma
Regular Member


Date Joined Apr 2008
Total Posts : 366
   Posted 2/20/2009 3:21 PM (GMT -6)   
KeepHope said...
Sulma
that is interesting about the ginko biloba and the glutamic acid. never heard of that. let me how it works for you.

I will say the L Lysine does work well for me. But what i find is that it seems to work best on the viral symptoms I sometimes have. this winter though it got so bad that I had to start an anti viral. regarding the arginine and counteracting that and it helping with bartonella or lyme symptoms. that I can not really tell. magneisum I can tell I feel worse on. but sadly i also have better sleep and digestion when taking it. so what to do what to do. i want to listen to the doc of course but i have to bring up the benefits too. i did that and he asked me not to take any magnesium and not even an epson salt bath.
the other issue that is back and forth is vitamin D and on lymenet there are about 3 big threads with HUGE amounts of data as to why one thinks one way and another thinks the other and such. I am torn to be honest . I supplement and my doc does prescribe D3 and checks levels in my blood. I have not noticed much change but will say it was hard to work up and i had herx type reactions at first>>

So I have three things that seem always in the air
magnesium
arginine
Vitamin d

I am sure here are bigger issues and more issues but those keep showing up over and over as contradicting

So here we are : )

Yeah definitely mineral supplementation is dangerous territory for us.  I did a liquid sea mineral supplement Jan of last year that had a reputation for being extremely well absorbed.  I believe it. The paresthesias that had been only very slowly spreading across my body exploded like wildfire in the 3 weeks I took that stuff.  Clearly I fed it. I don't even touch zinc or mag anymore, much less a mineral complex. Anything we're really low on, like mag or Vit D, I guess is being consumed by the infections as a food source.  I guess it's a bind as to whether to supplement or not.  I just take the position of not supplementing, but also not avoiding foods that may be rich in mag or vit D, etc.
 
Wow....didn't know lysine would help with viral stuff.  I apparently had dormant HPV for years before I got Lyme, and it's now been recurrently symptomatic since I've been sick. Will try that, and will also let you know about the Gingko.  Got high hopes for that now; I dearly need help with the fog.
 

Sulma
Regular Member


Date Joined Apr 2008
Total Posts : 366
   Posted 2/20/2009 3:27 PM (GMT -6)   
Razzle said...
Sulma,

I don't know when I got Lyme, but the Lyme-Literate doctors I've seen have all told me either it is congenital or I got it when I was 4 years old (the wandering joint pain started at age 5, and the suspected vector, a red fire ant, bit me when I was 4). So I can't answer the question of whether or not I felt better on low protein diet before getting Lyme... My Mom tells me I was difficult to feed as an infant, so I guess my GI system has always been finicky.  NutriGenomic tests have revealed the genetic variances that mess with sulfur amino acid metabolism, which just confirms what I had figured out when I was in high school that the protein-rich foods were a problem for me.

Take care,

 Very interesting, Razzle.  Appreciating you sharing.  Would you tell me more about your low protein diet?  Any complete proteins at all like eggs or meat? I know good quality whey concentrate has no casein and is about 25% lower in arginine and glutamic acid than eggs and even a bit lower than poulty and beef, but is still good protein.  Wondering if you've tried that and it works ok.

Razzle
Veteran Member


Date Joined Aug 2007
Total Posts : 4399
   Posted 2/20/2009 8:07 PM (GMT -6)   
Sulma said...
 Very interesting, Razzle.  Appreciating you sharing.  Would you tell me more about your low protein diet?  Any complete proteins at all like eggs or meat? I know good quality whey concentrate has no casein and is about 25% lower in arginine and glutamic acid than eggs and even a bit lower than poulty and beef, but is still good protein.  Wondering if you've tried that and it works ok.
My low protein diet was vegetarian - no animal protein (no meat, no fish, no shellfish, no dairy (except butter), and no eggs).  I ate  beans, peas, and some nuts for protein.  After a few years of this, I added dairy back in with few ill effects initially.  Gradually, milk started to bother me more and more, and I discovered that cooking milk helps me tolerate it better.  No, never tried whey protein by itself.  But I haven't been able to eat since the end of June so I don't know what milk would do to me now.  EnteroLab stool allergy test done in 2005 revealed a borderline allergy to caseine, so it is likely that I'll have to avoid milk protein when I am able to eat again.
 
Take care,
-Razzle
Chronic Lyme Disease, Gluten & Sulfite Sensitivity, Many Food/Inhalant/Medication Allergies & Intolerances, Asthma, Gut issues (dysmotility, non-specific inflammation), UCTD ("Secondary Lupus-Like Syndrome"), Osteoporosis, Anemia, Lymphopenia, intermittant Pancytopenia, chronic malabsorption/malnutrition, etc.; G Tube; Currently TPN-dependent.
Meds:  Zofran, Pulmicort, Heparin (to flush PICC line), IV Cipro (for G-tube site infection).

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