How do you herx with Bart/BLO?

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nefferdun
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Date Joined Feb 2008
Total Posts : 900
   Posted 3/11/2009 4:30 PM (GMT -6)   
I am new to this bacteria and cannot get as much information as with lyme.  How do you herx with bartonella and does it occur in cycles like with lyme?  Thanks.

nefferdun
Veteran Member


Date Joined Feb 2008
Total Posts : 900
   Posted 3/11/2009 6:13 PM (GMT -6)   
thanks KeepHope. With lyme, I always herx with the full moon. I feel great and then about a week before the moon is full I begin to feel symptoms again. Usually my symptoms are tingling, muscle twitches, spasms, and headache. The symptoms that never left were brain fog, lack of motivation, painful shins and very irritated eyes. Last month I started Levaquin for BLO and I felt much better mentally, not as disconnected, more energy and motivation. I started new projects and finished old ones. It was great. I started amoxi for the lyme 2 weeks ago. This full moon I am miserable, feel worse than I have since last year when I first started treatment. My right arm aches and I my back feels like I have been punched - it will cramp if I am not careful. My eyes were very irritated but my shins seems a little better - maybe I just don't notice that compared to everything else. In spite of the pain, I feel better mentally - not as brain dead, although I did confuse the number 3 with the letter E. The doctor told me I should not herx as strongly for BLO. I think if is worse. So I don't know if this is a lyme herx or a BLO herx.
I hope you begin to feel better. I know you have been trying to find something to help with your pain. I am taking Quercetin, 500mg 3 times a day which you can buy at the health food store. It is supposed to help with inflammation - interferes with the production of cytokines. You would have to research this to find out exactly what it does but I believe a lot of the pain we experience is inflammation from the body' immune system attacking healthy tissue - Bb attaches it's proteins to our cells and our immune system attacks. There is also a lot of toxin build up. I was pretty out of it when it was explained to me but quercetin is supposed to help.

nefferdun
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Date Joined Feb 2008
Total Posts : 900
   Posted 3/11/2009 6:34 PM (GMT -6)   
I copied this from Wellspere about cytokines. I have taken this off topic but I still need more information about BLO herx.

QUOTE

It's like this. In the presence of toxins, pro-inflammatory immune system proteins, called cytokines, are sent out to areas of infection. Problem is, they tend to be battalion-happy and, when it comes to Lyme disease, they are fond of flooding the body with their presence. Don't get me wrong; cytokines play a vital role in the immune system. They mobilize white blood cells for the purpose of destroying pathogens, recognize antigens (invaders) and have a number of vital functions besides. Problem is, and especially in the presence of Lyme biotoxins, their overwhelming presence causes a person to suffer.



How? Well...where do I start? First, inflammation blocks oxygen flow to cells by suppressing VEGF-vascular endothelial growth factor, which is responsible for blood vessel dilation and growth. Without proper dilation and growth, red blood cells can't get through the capillaries in order to make it to the tissues! As a result, cells don't get the nutrients they need, which has a multitude of negative implications for the body. It's why you feel tired; it's why your gut and your brain don't function right. Cells need oxygen and nutrients, in order to function!



Also, cytokines cause the release of an enzyme called MMP9, which allows inflammatory compounds to move from the bloodstream into the tissues and organs. MMP9 makes you feel absolutely horrible. Measuring MMP9 levels, by the way, can help you to discern whether you have an explosion of inflammatory cytokines in the body.



Further, it is thought that inflammation can initiate auto-immune processes, causing the body to produce different types of antibodies, which in turn exacerbates the inflammation!

The process can become out of control. But that's not the worst of it. The initiation of auto-immune processes brings more trouble to the body. For instance, in people with high levels of biotoxins, inflammation is thought to induce the production of anticardiolipins, which contribute to abnormal blood clotting processes. As another example, it can initiate the destruction of myelin shealth, the protective covering of nerve fibers.

seeingstars
Regular Member


Date Joined Apr 2008
Total Posts : 266
   Posted 3/11/2009 7:52 PM (GMT -6)   
my eyes and forehead and back of head feel pressure. and yes, mine cycles but I can't tell you what is what. plus it is just my guess but I think the combo of different bugs may encourage different cycle lengths too. I will say I don't have a + bart/blo test but my shins have hurt, I have huge CNS problems, and a whole bunch of other symptoms from this particular TBI.

nefferdun
Veteran Member


Date Joined Feb 2008
Total Posts : 900
   Posted 3/11/2009 8:11 PM (GMT -6)   
I didn't have a positive test either. The LLMD said that is common as the labs only test for a few strains and there are about 30. My primary symptoms were shin pain, irritated eyes, bladder irritation without infection, depression (also becoming very aggitated), and feeling disconnected to myself. I woke up hot almost every night. Some of that has eased up. I have a telephone converence call with him tomorrow and I will find out more. I will have my husband listen in as he can remember so much more than me. Actually my lower legs are hurting. I just didn't notice with the other pains shouting over it. I also have a lot of trouble sleeping.

nefferdun
Veteran Member


Date Joined Feb 2008
Total Posts : 900
   Posted 3/12/2009 8:45 AM (GMT -6)   
I have not been waking up hot for a couple of weeks but I took it one night and it was slightly elevated. My temp in the moring was also slightly elevated. Dr. B says lyme keeps your body temp low but BLO raises it in the morning. Mine is usually about 96.6 during the day but about 97.4 in the morning. It was over 98 when I felt hot. Not much difference. I will write more after I speak with him and he answers some of my questions.

seeingstars
Regular Member


Date Joined Apr 2008
Total Posts : 266
   Posted 3/12/2009 10:50 AM (GMT -6)   
I wanted to add that at this time I have been having HUGE die off in my head, neck, back, and back of head. It was really messing with my brain and CNS bad and the only drug that really crosses the bbb that I have been taking is mino. So I upped my mino to 200 mg 2xs a day and I had huge die off in just a day. My doc told me I could do this 4 days on and 2 days off. Before when I was taking mino 100 mgs 2xs a day I still would have the flairs in my brain and spine. I am really appreciating the upped dose of mino right now. Also, I will pulse flagyl now since that is also one of the few drugs that cross the bbb. I have consistantly been taking biaxin and plaq. now for over 3 months. This is a good drug I just still had CNS and brain issues that weren't being touched. So now I take biaxin and plaq and an upped dose of mino. Then I'll drop plaq for a few weeks while taking flagyl. I am having huge improvement on the combo so far. But I just started the flagyl so I'll have to see how that improves things too.

nefferdun
Veteran Member


Date Joined Feb 2008
Total Posts : 900
   Posted 3/12/2009 12:44 PM (GMT -6)   
I am glad you are doing so well seeingstars and hope it continues. I talked to the doctor via phone call. He is starting me on plaq to help with cyst form of lyme. He says what he gave me for yeast has grapefruit seed extract which also kills the cyst form of Bb and this will boost the effect of the plaq. I continue the amoxi for Bb and Levaquin for blo. He is happy with my mental emotional improvement and thinks much of this is due to treating bart. He said bart does not go into a cyst form although it does live in the tissues. He said you do not have cycles with it as with lyme. He believes I will be cured of bart in 2 more months of levaquin but the lyme may take a lot longer - up to 2 years. I think I probably need something stronger than amoxi that will cross the bbb. I used ketek last year and it was very effective but expensive and difficult to tolerate. Levaquin is expensive and difficult to tolerate. He wanted to give me flagyl but I cannot handle that. He suggested tendamx but I told him it is too expensive with the levaquin. I never thought drugs would become an interesting source of knowledge.
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