Zhang or Cowden Protocol?

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scorpio1960
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Date Joined Jan 2009
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   Posted 5/1/2009 12:18 PM (GMT -6)   
I'm currently on IV and oral antibiotics in addition to various supplements.  I want to add either the Zhang or Cowden protocol and am not sure which one to choose.  Any suggestions and/or opinions would be appreciated.  Thanks.

MarriedtoLymeinNJ
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Date Joined Sep 2007
Total Posts : 273
   Posted 5/2/2009 7:48 AM (GMT -6)   
My kids llmd is using stuff from both of them together. They are mostly on a modified Cowden and started with Zhang's HH capsules.
he is also considering Venus flytrap for DS's Bart.

His approach is to take the "best" of the different protocols and see what works.
My kids have had really good success with this so far.
Chris: Diagnosed Lyme, Chronic Mono
Married to Lyme in NJ aka Gary: Lyme, Bartonella
Mom to Scott: Lyme, Babesia, Bartonella
Mom to Caitlyn: Lyme, Bartonella
My Blog: http://faerywings.wordpress.com/


nefferdun
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Date Joined Feb 2008
Total Posts : 900
   Posted 5/2/2009 8:27 AM (GMT -6)   
Zhang's hh is supposed to be good to treat bartonella but according to Schaller, who has written the book on bart and says he is a good friend of Zhang, it needs to be taken in a much higher dose to actually work. Schaller also recommends samento and cumanda from the Cowden protocol which he says also needs to be taken at a much higher dose. He also recommends clove bud oil for bart. Samento, cumanda and quina are all supposed to be effective against lyme and it's coinfections. Zhang uses allicin for lyme and it stinks so much most people cannot tolerate it longer than a month.
How much you are supposed to take, Schaller does not say. He expects you to pay for a consultation with him which is $500 for half an hour on the telephone. However the protocol as given is for a person 120-170 lbs. Schaller calls these recommendations "very low" and advises us to take a "very high dose".
I am currently taking 9 HH capsules and 4 houttuynia of another brand. It is very different stuff as Zhangs taste like absolute garbage (dead fish) and the other stuff is palatable so I believe Zhang's is much better.
I also take 500 mg of TOA free cat's claw in capsules as well as 30 drops of samento once a day and 30 drops of cumando or quina twice a day. I am still working up my dosage. I take 500mg of grapefruit seed extract which is supposed to kill the cyst form of lyme.
I have no idea if it is working.

scorpio1960
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Date Joined Jan 2009
Total Posts : 914
   Posted 5/2/2009 9:19 AM (GMT -6)   
Thanks for the responses. My llmd suggested I take various supplements from Emerson Ecologics, which I am. I realize that each doctor has their own specific protocol and I'm not sure how he will respond if I ask to go on Cowden or Zhang in addition to the antibiotics and supplements he suggested. I ordered Zhang's book and will probably do the free consultation with him and then make a decision.

The cost of all of this is more than I can afford so I want to do as much as I can without wasting time or money. I guess that's exactly what we all are trying to do. I just wish there wasn't so much trial and error involved. Our finances, credit, relationships - basically our entire lives - are just wasting away while those with the power to make a difference have the nerve to diminish or trivialize what we are going through. I'm still having such a difficult time trying to wrap my head around how all the controversy can still exist. Sorry for the rant.

MarriedtoLymeinNJ
Regular Member


Date Joined Sep 2007
Total Posts : 273
   Posted 5/2/2009 10:07 AM (GMT -6)   
Scorpio- I hear ya 100%!!

My DD has Lyme and Bart- for Cowden she was is on 15 drops 2/day Burbur and 20 drops 2/day of Cumanda /Banderol. She rotates monthly on them, and has weekends off. She was taking 20 drops 2/day of Quina but has since come off that.

DS has Lyme, Bart and Babs.
He takes 25 drops Cumanda/ Banderol 2/day, rotating monthly.
Burbur and Pinella- 15 drops 2/day
Enula 25 drops 2/day

They both take 2 HH capsules day, weekends off. I am double coating them (put them in a second capsule shell) so they dissolve inthe lower intestine instead of the stomach.

The Cowden herbs are larger doses than that recommended on the bottles (gods we go through so many bottles!!)

I hope this helps.......

PS: If you are going to buy Cowden herbs, it is cheaper to go through nurtamedix.com than our dr- you can get free bottles, free shipping and 10-20% discounts
Chris: Diagnosed Lyme, Chronic Mono
Married to Lyme in NJ aka Gary: Lyme, Bartonella
Mom to Scott: Lyme, Babesia, Bartonella
Mom to Caitlyn: Lyme, Bartonella
My Blog: http://faerywings.wordpress.com/


scorpio1960
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Date Joined Jan 2009
Total Posts : 914
   Posted 5/2/2009 11:08 AM (GMT -6)   
MarriedtoLymeinNJ, Thanks for all the info. I'm going to check at the web site and your blog. Boy do you have your hands full. I wish you and your family success in beating this darn thing.

MarriedtoLymeinNJ
Regular Member


Date Joined Sep 2007
Total Posts : 273
   Posted 5/2/2009 11:12 AM (GMT -6)   
Hands full?? Ahhh! I pretty much have dropped it all- it is laying scattered at my feet LOLOL!

If you have any other ?'s don't hesitate to ask :)
Chris: Diagnosed Lyme, Chronic Mono
Married to Lyme in NJ aka Gary: Lyme, Bartonella
Mom to Scott: Lyme, Babesia, Bartonella
Mom to Caitlyn: Lyme, Bartonella
My Blog: http://faerywings.wordpress.com/


kingrew
New Member


Date Joined Apr 2009
Total Posts : 9
   Posted 5/2/2009 9:28 PM (GMT -6)   
I have been taking the new condensed Cowden protocol for about a month. I'm getting six months of it for free through Nutramedix. They will provide one patient per doctor with six months free protocol herbs (ie samento, cumanda, quina). My chiropractor applied for me. I had to work up to the full dose, which is 30 drops twice a day of samento, and 30 drops twice a day of banderol. Both are taken with detox herbs like burbur so that you can tolerate the herx reaction. I have had lyme disease for 29 years, and it takes at least 2 months at full dose to see improvements for long term lyme. It is very importent to drink at least twelve cups of water a day to keep lymph moving. Apparently doctors are getting 70% to 90% cure rates with the new condensed protocol. Would love to hear from others who have completed at least six months of it.

scorpio1960
Veteran Member


Date Joined Jan 2009
Total Posts : 914
   Posted 5/2/2009 10:08 PM (GMT -6)   
Kingrew, That's fantastic news.  I'm looking forward to hearing good news from you shortly. 
 
I also would like to hear from others.

MarriedtoLymeinNJ
Regular Member


Date Joined Sep 2007
Total Posts : 273
   Posted 5/3/2009 5:42 AM (GMT -6)   
kingrew- great news!
How did you find out about having your dr apply for the free trial (for lack of a better way to say it!)

My dh isn't getting much better on traditional meds. he is going through our amazingly knowledgeable health food store herbalist. It is helping- he used to throw up constantly, but since he started the fermented foods and another couple of supplements, that has stopped completely. His joints are in way less pain as well. But a lot of the brain fog/insomnia is still pretty bad. He is thinking of switching from our llmd (Dr F in North Jersey) to our kids llmd (Dr B in Central jersey) since he seems to be much more into a holistic approach. Maybe he could get into this program, since gods know we are pretty much out of $$
Just thinking ahead I guess...
Chris: Diagnosed Lyme, Chronic Mono
Married to Lyme in NJ aka Gary: Lyme, Bartonella
Mom to Scott: Lyme, Babesia, Bartonella
Mom to Caitlyn: Lyme, Bartonella
My Blog: http://faerywings.wordpress.com/


nefferdun
Veteran Member


Date Joined Feb 2008
Total Posts : 900
   Posted 5/3/2009 8:07 AM (GMT -6)   
kingrew, what do you mean by "new condensed Cowden protocol"? Are the herbs in a stronger solution?

bigdreams87
New Member


Date Joined Mar 2009
Total Posts : 16
   Posted 5/3/2009 5:02 PM (GMT -6)   
Nefferdun,

I have probably spent $3,000 consulting with Schaller so far. I have been trying a mix of different things. Right now I am upping my HH capsules and taking Samento/Quina. How many HH capsules do you plan on working up to? I get a really crazy reaction if I take too much of the garlic - I feel almost as if my brain swells up and creates pressure in my forehead, to the point where I can't function and have to lay down doing absolutely NOTHING for a couple days - it's scary and I don't know if it is an allergic reaction or dieoff. Both taking Samento and Quina alone could have possibly alleviated some symptoms, but obviously they were not enough.

Have you had any lab finding through FRY Labs? Dr. Fry reported a parasite on the redblood cell that is "suggestive of Haemobartonella or Mycoplasma." He explained to my Dr. that it is a protozoan and that Alinia or Zithromax should work. Have you had this or know anything about it?

Thanks

kingrew
New Member


Date Joined Apr 2009
Total Posts : 9
   Posted 5/15/2009 9:47 PM (GMT -6)   
The condensed version of dr. Cowden's protocol can be found on the Nutramedix website. Its condensed because now you can take the herbs 4x day instead of 8x as previously done, and yet its having a higher success rate. I'd love to talk with someone who has been on it for 6 months or longer and see how it worked out for them. I know you have to follow the protocol as closely as possible, taking serrapeptase at certain times to break down the cyst form, drinking at least 12 cups of water a day. I've been on it 48 days now. I've had lyme for 29 yrs, and I read it takes months on this protocol for results for long term lyme. - Karen

scorpio1960
Veteran Member


Date Joined Jan 2009
Total Posts : 914
   Posted 5/15/2009 10:50 PM (GMT -6)   
Karen, How are you doing? Have you felt any improvement yet? I hope you are beginning to see results and continue to do so.

nefferdun
Veteran Member


Date Joined Feb 2008
Total Posts : 900
   Posted 5/16/2009 6:53 AM (GMT -6)   
I have been off worried about something else and forgot to check back. I decided to only take 10 HH capsules with 4 of the other brand as it is a lot for my stomach to handle and it is expensive - very expensive!
I will look up the new cowden herbs at nutramedix. That is so good to know.

ozoneGirl
New Member


Date Joined Jul 2010
Total Posts : 7
   Posted 7/2/2010 3:46 PM (GMT -6)   

Hi,

See Condensed Cowden Protocol thread for more info'...

turn

emmjay0522
New Member


Date Joined Feb 2012
Total Posts : 2
   Posted 2/17/2012 2:09 PM (GMT -6)   
I have done Dr. Zhang. I honestly do not find it did a darned thing. I have to be honest. I really don't think it works. However, I am currently doing the Cowden Protocol and I know that is working. I am getting better all the time. I am not even talking about "feeling better" but verifiable changes, for example, eradication of bradycardia, improvement in neuropathy, ear ringing is gone and most importantly, clearing up of the brain fog. The other issue is that I did not herx at all from the Zhang protocol. It didn't seem to do anything. I think it is expensive and it does nothing. Cowden protocol however, I did here from. Now, according to them (Cowden) you should back off if you are herxing. Which is fine. They also have a lot of things you can take to relieve the herxing. All in all, I have had nothing but positive results from Cowden. Look at the work of Dr. Eva Sapi, which shows Cowden to work in clinical trials.

achievinggrace
Forum Moderator


Date Joined Nov 2009
Total Posts : 3266
   Posted 2/18/2012 9:46 AM (GMT -6)   
emmjay,

We do appreciate you sharing your success story with the Cowden protocol, it is important not "flame" another treatment option. It may well be working for someone else and your comments are not supportive of them.
Co-Moderator Lyme Disease Forum

emmjay0522
New Member


Date Joined Feb 2012
Total Posts : 2
   Posted 2/18/2012 12:48 PM (GMT -6)   
This is a post that asked for an opinion about which protocol is better and I gave my experience, having tried both. I have read and heard a lot of different opinions on various treatments. I have tried everything under the sun and my experience is that Zhang did not work and was very expensive. There is NO RESEARCH to support Zhang at all. He is a lone man in an office selling very costly supplements. Other than his word there is no science done by independent research that verifies that his protocol works. I, my husband and son have all tried it with no results at all. That is my experience. The Cowden protocol is backed by independent research done by the University of New Haven.

http://www.newhaven.edu/news-events/82773.pdf See for yourself.

I have spoken personally with Dr. Eva Sapi about her research. Not only is she a medical researcher, but she has suffered with the disease herself and used the protocol herself. I was in bed, unable to move for two years. I couldn't drive because I lacked the ability to focus long enough to avoid an accident. I suffered Lyme Rage. I am now virtually 100% back to normal and I am only two months into the protocol. Now I work out every day and weight train twice a week. This post is asking for an opinion about what the person should choose if they have to pick one. In my opinion, based on my experience, the experience of my husband and son, I would say if you have to choose, go with Cowden. This is backed by an independent University study which has shown that it kills all three stages of Lyme and gets through biofilm.

I would love to see an independent study done on the Zhang protocol. If you can find one, would you please post?

Traveler
Forum Moderator


Date Joined May 2007
Total Posts : 35853
   Posted 2/18/2012 1:00 PM (GMT -6)   
Excuse me, Emmjay -
There is no reason for you to claim that something like Zhang's has no research behind it, as that's not true. Although I don't use Zhang's either, his protocol is based on his interpretation of treating Lyme Disease according to Chinese Medicine - very different than the Cowden protocol.

We do not allow members to attack someone's form of treatment. If it didn't work for you that's fine and you are most definitely allowed to state that it didn't work for you.

There also happens to be rules about arguing with a Moderator when they are pointing out rules that you have already agreed to abide by when you joined this forum.

There is no one way to heal from these infections - everyone is different. We are here to share our experiences, not to tear down the treatments that others are considering or using (as long as they are safe).

Please abide by the rules.
Co-Moderator, Lyme Disease ;)

Treating with Acupuncture, Traditional & Modern Chinese Medicine & Western Herbs. Before tx, I had all but 20 of the symptoms on the "Master Symptom List"

"Absence of proof is not proof of absence" - Dr. Edwin Masters, great LLMD & researcher -RIP

I break up my post because my eyes have been effected by TBI's as well, making long paragraphs very hard to read.

yazzer
Veteran Member


Date Joined Jun 2011
Total Posts : 898
   Posted 2/18/2012 2:07 PM (GMT -6)   
Thanks, emmjay for stating your experience with both protocols. I have tried neither but have researched and saw the good clinical info available for Cowden. But I have tried neither yet. I seem to be improving with the Byron White protocol combined with abx and GSE. I have been toying with the idea of trying cowden' s samento and banderol once I complete the BW stuff. Again, the research looks very promising and it seems to be best to try several different techniques to keep the critters off guard.good luck with your treatment!

Caldonia Sun
Regular Member


Date Joined Aug 2009
Total Posts : 310
   Posted 2/18/2012 5:49 PM (GMT -6)   
We must always remember that people respond differently to the various protocols. What works for one may not for another. Thankfully we have choices.

mercuryb
Regular Member


Date Joined Feb 2012
Total Posts : 253
   Posted 2/19/2012 3:09 PM (GMT -6)   
i am a little disappointed with the cowden protocol and some of it has to do with what i clearly view as false advertising. I purchased a few bottles of his 500 mg serraptease..it learly says this ion the front ogf the bottle..ie what you see whan you order it

yet you look on the back of the bottle-ingriedents 100 mgs serraptease-400 mgs Jerusalem artichoke..well jerusalem artichoke could very well have serraptease in it, but then do not put 500 mgs serraptease on the front of the container for customers to see..seems to be sort of midleading and scummy in my view

plus i am not sure if they have downsized-changed the formulation of their ingredients on all their various support herbs, but last batch i ordered (10-2010) did nadda..no effect whatsoever
========================================================================

i just got a small bottle of zhangs HH on Friday; 1 even 2 capsules no effect..the first one i broke open to only take a half capsule so as not to overdo it--puuuuuuuuuuuuuu...i think someone said it tastes like a rotten fish, yup thats close..so then i went o 1 capsule..nothing...so then I have upped toi took 2 caps for a half day--nuttin....so now i am upping to 4 caps...so far nuttin..

if i do not herx at 4; I will likely just go back to 1-2 a day

I think it did seem to make me sleep longer and deeper..so maybe is working on some level

As caldonia said, i think you have to be rotating or cycling treatments as these bugs adapt to pretty much anything and everything..as i have found things that do not work today, might in a month and vice versa, things that work today will not work forever

michael

Michael
Bartonella just started treating, severe burning in legs; hands getting numb; eyes filmy and strained, diminished sight, significant neuro-cognitive problems.
living streams (Derma, Probiotics & Flora PM which i believe eliminated liver flukes) Did 5-6 MagVIt C IV's and this seems to have healed gut but created major detox) Rifing-perl, lactoferrrin-big gut neuro herx , valtrex 4 ebv to raise WBC

mercuryb
Regular Member


Date Joined Feb 2012
Total Posts : 253
   Posted 2/19/2012 3:32 PM (GMT -6)   
bigdreams87; garlic reaction could be allergy

you can have food sensitivities-allergies to somethings, i did a food sensitivity test and found garlic-almonds-eggs-milk were very bad for me...so no more garlic
Bartonella just started treating, severe burning in legs; hands getting numb; eyes filmy and strained, diminished sight, significant neuro-cognitive problems.
living streams (Derma, Probiotics & Flora PM which i believe eliminated liver flukes) Did 5-6 MagVIt C IV's and this seems to have healed gut but created major detox) Rifing-perl, lactoferrrin-big gut neuro herx , valtrex 4 ebv to raise WBC

mercuryb
Regular Member


Date Joined Feb 2012
Total Posts : 253
   Posted 2/19/2012 3:39 PM (GMT -6)   
its funny, i purchased schallers TWO -yes its a 2 volume set on bart...almost $100; $84.2 dollars I think was spent on 150 pages of supposed bart pictures..I could have done with about $83.5 less pictures..the book was a complete waste

then 20 pages was him talking about what did not work, thing such as zhangs herbs..not a word on what works
I guess for that its $500 for a half hour.

I find it very questionable Dr S's many ads on bart which seem to be of the "Carny type" which are the most negative and fearful i have ever seen..things like this make me question the integrity of whatever is being sold
Bartonella just started treating, severe burning in legs; hands getting numb; eyes filmy and strained, diminished sight, significant neuro-cognitive problems.
living streams (Derma, Probiotics & Flora PM which i believe eliminated liver flukes) Did 5-6 MagVIt C IV's and this seems to have healed gut but created major detox) Rifing-perl, lactoferrrin-big gut neuro herx , valtrex 4 ebv to raise WBC
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