Contagious? What can we do and what do you think?

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Chasz
New Member


Date Joined May 2009
Total Posts : 17
   Posted 5/31/2009 11:51 AM (GMT -6)   
Hi everyone,

My name is Chasz from the Netherlands. Ive been bitten by a tick last year and started 30 days of oral doxi 200 mg for 30 days in the 5th week after being bitten and the 2nd week after being tested positive. My symptoms returned after the antibiotics and then subsided again only to be replaced with creaking joints and muscle fasculations a couple of months later. I still have those to some degree now but I'm kinda used to them. My igm and igg have gone down but my c6 is still high. My question concerns human to human transmission. Why? Because during my search into my own symptoms last year, which sometimes was a necessary evil, I came accross a lot of stories about doctors (and patients)who are wondering if Lyme is in fact a contagious disease rather than purely a vector-borne one. Before elaborating on this further please take note of this: NO REAL RESEARCH with humans has been done here and yet the general concensus is that it cannot be transferred from one human to another. Based on absolutely nothing! However, the scientific studies that have been done with animals all seem to point more in favour of the fact that it is possible. Mother to unborn child transmission has been proven and documented and also the Borrelia bacteria are "related" to/of the same family as the bacteria that causes Sifilys which as we all know is in fact a well know sexually transmitted disease. Futhermore some figures seem to indicate that partners of Lyme patients test positive more often statistically speaking. This is generally attributed to the fact that both partners frequent the same natural surroundings but no proof of this exists because this is not easy to research.

In animal testing by Burgess Cats and Mice could be infected orally. Also contact transmission with dogs and mice could be established!
Sources: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1416347?dopt=Abstract, http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3826500?dopt=Abstract, http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3554844?dopt=Abstract

"We find no study that addresses sexual transmission of Bb among humans; conversely, we find no study supporting that it does not occur. Inferential data, however, suggest the possibility of human sexual transfer. The data come from sound veterinary studies (96,98,115), the finding of Bb in human semen and breast milk (128,129), and by similarity to Treponema pallidum where sexual transfer is abundantly documented (117,130,131). Our clinical experience strongly suggests that predictable, possibly inevitable Bbsl transfer between sexually active couples occurs. The preponderance of infected spouses we have tested to date also exhibit positive serology or PCR for Bbsl presence." Source: http://www.ilads.org/files/harvey.pdf

I really can’t imagine why no further studies are being undertaken regarding this subject. Ofcourse one could say that if it were that contagious a lot of people would have it already? Now keep in mind that the disease can manifest more than 10 years after a person has been infected and that a lot of people who are diagnosed with other diseases suddenly test positive for Lyme and ask yourself this question again. Lyme disease isn't called "the great imitator" for nothing as it can mimic at least a hundred symptoms of other diseases.

There is not much information because it simply hasn't been researched yet! I do however read some encouraging remarks here and there that kissing is highly likely(if ofcourse human to human transmission is possible at all) to be safe because the Borrelia can't or don't like to live in human saliva. Does anyone have -or do you know anyone that has a somewhat scientific opinion on the likelyhood of this being the case? I am very interested in your or other people's/doctors/scientist standpoint on this(I know no real hard fact exist as of yet so I'll regard it as an opinion only) I broke up with my girlfriend last year part of the reason also being because we were both scared by all those stories floating around and now I sometimes feel stuck with the “responsibility” towards someone else.

The only sort of study with humans that has been done was by doctor Bach in 2001. He recovered Borrelia dna from semen samples.
"Suprisingly, initial laboratory testing of semen samples provided by male Lyme patients (positive by western blot/PCR in blood) and the male sexual partner of a Lyme infected female patient were positive approximately 40% of the time. PCR recovery of Lyme DNA nucleotide sequences with microscopic confirmation of semen samples yielded positive results in 14/32 Lyme patients (13 male semen samples and 1 vaginal pap).
CONCLUSION: With the initially impressive data, we feel the subsequent statistical study on the sexual transmission of the Lyme spirochete will illuminate a much broader sectrum of public health concerns associated with the disease than the originally accepted tick borne vector."
Source: http://www.canlyme.com/sex.html

That’s like 8 years ago! Shouldnt this have already had a follow up test by someone? I mean this is a major area of interest I would say. Especially so if you take into account the responsibility towards an unborn child. Try to keep in mind that nothing has either been proven or disproven so I might be wrong with my gut feeling.

Also I see people like me posting their concerns, but maybe we should all really try to be more effective in getting the word out on this? Like mentioning to freelance journalists what an “interesting” and unexplored area this is? I’m just throwing it out there. Ofcourse you achieve the most not by sounding panicky, but by sounding sane and credible. I guess it will take a lot of patience.

It would be really great if someone would figure out a test that could say with 100% certainty whether or not all the bacteria are gone or incapacitated after antibiotics because too many people keep having complaints after being treated "succesfully" as I was. The whole post-lyme syndrom is again just a name given to complaints which cannot be explained. There is however no real proof that a post lyme syndrom actually exists. It might just as well be bacteria having survived the treatment.

Good luck everyone and let me know what you think.

Greetings Chasz
I am not a doctor or medical professional. If I can (find them) I'll post links to research results and scientific facts relating to the thread/topic in which my post is made and to my post. Otherwise I am speaking from personal experience and/or information gathered from other Lyme related websites.

Post Edited (Chasz) : 10/7/2009 6:55:42 AM (GMT-6)


Dowa
Veteran Member


Date Joined Sep 2008
Total Posts : 1120
   Posted 5/31/2009 2:28 PM (GMT -6)   
There was speculation when I was going to a clinic in Boston that I caught my Lyme from my golden retriever (he had Lyme) who used to kiss me on the face. So, if that is possible than it would have to be contagious. D

Razzle
Veteran Member


Date Joined Aug 2007
Total Posts : 4399
   Posted 6/1/2009 4:03 AM (GMT -6)   
I think I remember reading about someone who got Lyme from getting the urine from an infected animal (a dog, I think) splashed in their eye. And there are case reports of cross-placental transmission. So yes, I agree that Lyme can be "caught" from another person.
-Razzle
Chronic Lyme Disease, Gluten & Sulfite Sensitivity, Many Food/Inhalant/Medication/Chemical Allergies & Intolerances, Asthma, Gut issues (dysmotility, non-specific inflammation), UCTD ("Secondary Lupus-Like Syndrome"), Osteoporosis, Pancytopenia, chronic malabsorption/malnutrition, etc.; G-Tube; Currently TPN-dependent.
Meds:  Zofran, Pulmicort, Heparin (to flush PICC line), Claritin, Colloidal Silver (used topically), IV Milk Thistle, probiotics.


goodoldtimes
Regular Member


Date Joined Mar 2008
Total Posts : 96
   Posted 6/1/2009 10:06 AM (GMT -6)   
hi Chasz!

ik kom ook uit Nederland, maar woon sinds okt. 2007 in de US.
Are you still on treatment? I had 21 days days of doxy and it was just way too short!
I know somebody (a male) who infected his wife and yes, I believe it can be sexual transmitted (through sperm). The BB bacteria also is active in urine, so I think it might be active in saliva as well.
What sort of treatment do you get in The Netherlands? Do you go to a regular doctor. I just want to know because I might have to move back to Holland...
EM rash oct. 24 2007, 10-30-08: doxy 100 mg. bid for three weeks. Felt better, but symptoms slowly got back and much worse
2-21-08 until 4-23-08: doxy 100 mg. bid (described by family doctor)
4-24-08: start doxy 200 mg. bid and Biaxin XL 1000 mg once a day (seeing an Infectious Disease Doctor)
8-8-08 until 8-21-08: adding Flagyl 500 mg. bid
8-21-08: off all ABX   
9-17-08: doing herbs but symptoms slowly reappeared,so started Biaxin 500 mg. bid on 9-17-08
11-12-08: off abx, start Diflucan
 


Chasz
New Member


Date Joined May 2009
Total Posts : 17
   Posted 6/1/2009 7:40 PM (GMT -6)   
Hey Goodoldtimes and others reading this,

Thanx for your input. So yes I also think research should be done even if it's only to exclude the possibilty and to get rid of all those panicky posters ;) No but seriously, the fact that no evidence exists really isnt a good thing. Although I am fully aware that it might not be contagious at all. But still how can you say something isnt so when it hasnt been researched? Im starting to repeat myself here shocked turn
I've been thinking what else I/we/anyone can do besides approaching (medical) journalists. Maybe we can approach relatives/friends that are working or researching or writing articles in the medical and scientific communities, who are somewhat more open to gentle (patience) nudges in this direction. You can easily "convince" them by saying that it has never been researched. It's very important with this to be patient and be cool. People need time to get used to things. Especially when everyone up till now has been declaring that it can't be contagious. The majority of sites state this as a fact. Now one of the most powerfull arguments I think is the fact that no proof exists. This alone is mindboggeling especially with documented cases of transmission from mother to fetus and the fact that like Sifilys it is a spirochete. I think these two(three) arguments are very powerfull and will make people think immediately. I sometimes wonder myself if Im totally off my rocker, but then I think about these things and also realise: Hey no proof exists so I'm entirely within my inquisitve rights here. I also know that people might not want to think about this possibility and push it away to some corner of their minds. That's fine. I would like to do that too, but I can't anymore. Not till I see/hear some scientific evidence. So anyone, feel free to post a link if you got one :-)

Good health to you all and good and cool and patient "argumenting"

Greetings Chasz

As for treatment in the Netherlands. Well you've got your standard oral regime but if you test later when it's chronic already or if they find antibodies in Liqour you can get Iv treatment. Six weeks I think. The treament regimes are very conservative here. If you really want something else you have to go to germany or the uk to private clinics.
I am not a doctor or medical professional. If I can (find them) I'll post links to research results and scientific facts relating to the thread/topic in which my post is made and to my post. Otherwise I am speaking from personal experience and/or information gathered from other Lyme related websites.

Post Edited (Chasz) : 10/7/2009 6:51:32 AM (GMT-6)


hopingToFindCure
Veteran Member


Date Joined Nov 2008
Total Posts : 759
   Posted 6/2/2009 6:38 PM (GMT -6)   
All I will add is anything is possible.
Bit June 08.


Martha's Vineyard
Veteran Member


Date Joined Jul 2008
Total Posts : 1119
   Posted 6/3/2009 10:49 AM (GMT -6)   
ok.....yes the man who discovered Lyme...whos name is on it. Got some urine in his eye and immediately contracted lyme.
And yes lyme can be sexually transmitted.
And it can also go through a mothers placenta and go to a baby in her breast milk. It is a tiny bacteria that travels well...and reproduces every 28 days.
2004 in Martha's Vineyard me and my two daughters then 11 mos and 6 all got Lyme Disease. This was only known to us because we found the tiny ticks on us and we got very ill. My dog also got lyme and he went lame.
We have fought it for 4 years to no avail.
We all got it again this summer is Texas.
I am now in treatment in Scottsdale Arizona at Envita.

"The eyes cannot see for for what the mind does not know."


Martha's Vineyard
Veteran Member


Date Joined Jul 2008
Total Posts : 1119
   Posted 6/3/2009 10:50 AM (GMT -6)   
oh...and if your dog has lyme and he sleeps with you. Then his flees that bite him and then bited you are giving you lyme daily.
Again and again.
2004 in Martha's Vineyard me and my two daughters then 11 mos and 6 all got Lyme Disease. This was only known to us because we found the tiny ticks on us and we got very ill. My dog also got lyme and he went lame.
We have fought it for 4 years to no avail.
We all got it again this summer is Texas.
I am now in treatment in Scottsdale Arizona at Envita.

"The eyes cannot see for for what the mind does not know."


Chasz
New Member


Date Joined May 2009
Total Posts : 17
   Posted 6/3/2009 4:58 PM (GMT -6)   
Yeah this all sounds very encouraging indeed. shocked
 
The question remains: why don't more people know these facts? Or better yet: why doesn't anyone know that there are almost no facts because no research has been done despite all these stories "signals" and suspicions?! And that every website that claims it's not contagious bases this fact on absolutely nothing! And again! What can we do? Maybe set up a ring of websites on this or something?

If I do a search on "Lyme" "contagious" now. All I get is. "No it is not contagious" "No it cannot be transmitted from one human to another" etc etc. It's crazy. I mean really if you know that all these sites base there opinion on nothing. Nada Zip Zilch. No research at all!
 
I am telling family and friends about my findings/suspicions but it takes time. So easy does it smilewinkgrin
 
And what about the Q-RiBb test? The one developed by Dr Joanne Whitaker? Anyone know more of this? What I read from it is this. (Don't know if it's all true though): It's the same test of which Dr. Mattman, who allegedly was nominated for a nobelprize  for her work on "Stealth Patogens", confirmed a sensitivity of 100%! The test directly shows the Borrelia itself instead of just the antibodies. Dr. Whitaker found BB in blood, mother's milk, urine, placenta, sperm, tissue, tears, teeth, spinalfluid, fingerjoint-fluid and African dust. The test received a temporary U.S. Patent permission an the FDA permission is in preparation. Supposedly almost everyone tested with this test, tested positive for BB, even if they had never been symptomatic. This almost leads one to believe that everyone might be carriying the bacteria. I think there are some other diseases of which all of us carry some form in our bodies? Anyone more info on this? And if everyone might be carryiers. Doesnt everybody get sick because of the fact that their immune-system is suppressing the BB? Or is it dormant? Or are a lot of other diseases out there all Lyme related?

RESEARCH PLEASE! idea   If you feel there's more going on based on say the animal studies or the Syfilis relationship and you know anyone in the scientific community send them links or tell them about it. Or maybe you can tell your doctor. If everyone drops these little hints then one day it's gonna take off for sure. But don't come of dramatic or to pushy. nono smilewinkgrin
 
Good luck everyone!

Greetings Chasz

Post Edited (Chasz) : 7/5/2009 3:28:19 PM (GMT-6)


RottenDog
Veteran Member


Date Joined Apr 2009
Total Posts : 1013
   Posted 6/4/2009 9:40 PM (GMT -6)   
i so pray this is true for all of us who suffer and have to fight to get treatment
   RD
                                                                                                                 
 
still looking for answers
 


Chasz
New Member


Date Joined May 2009
Total Posts : 17
   Posted 6/29/2009 9:52 PM (GMT -6)   
Hello everyone,

I got a "scientific" opinion from a very helpful member of the Australian LymeOz community. This lady says that kissing a girl should be safe because and I quote: "Although Bb does not live in your saliva because pH is too high and Bb like acidic pH but it can exist anywhere in the cyst stage. By kissing you transfer Bb you will transfer cysts and then cysts will change to spirochetes or the intracellular form . But this all depends on her level of  interleukin 10 production and interferon  gamma which determine whether Bb penetrate her body and immunosuppress her. The pathway  Bb travels s complex and with 21 plasmids you can change your outer coat in somany ways that the imune system will not recognise it."

So basically I was jumping for joy with finally an opinion that kissing is safe backed up by what seems to be a scientific explanation. I do not understand all the technical details. Perhaps someone else here can shine his/her light on this?
So I was happy because kissing is ok, hooray! :-) However now we have the cystic form that might be transferred after all. cry From what I know the cystic form has only been proven in in-vitro studies. Some believe that this, alongside with the shedding of the Borrelia's cell-wall and/or the corkscrew invasion of another cell, is one of the reasons why so many people experience persistent symptoms and that this also would mean that the Borrelia actually is capable of surviving antibiotic treatment, like it is able to do in a lab dish. You can check out a lot of clips of this process on various movie sites. Proving this also happens inside the body would make the post-lyme syndrome a thing of the past.
Anyone got any ideas if passing on the cystic form is possible? I know I know, ideas only since no real research has been done, sigh eyes :-)

Post Edited (Chasz) : 6/29/2009 10:03:28 PM (GMT-6)


Chasz
New Member


Date Joined May 2009
Total Posts : 17
   Posted 7/5/2009 3:32 PM (GMT -6)   
Oh and I accidentily deleted my post before Rottendogs last one.

It said that I feel it won't be long before the Lyme bubble will burst and much more will which is now still unclear will come out into the open.

Hence Rottendogs reply :-)

Post Edited (Chasz) : 7/5/2009 4:29:31 PM (GMT-6)


Chasz
New Member


Date Joined May 2009
Total Posts : 17
   Posted 7/15/2009 6:20 AM (GMT -6)   
Hey everyone,

So I started this thread with the purpose of getting a dialogue going on the possible human to human transmission of Lyme(Borrelia) and specifically kissing, since I was thinking I can protect myself when being intimate, but you can't protect yourself whilst kissing. Now I was looking over the tests a specialised lab in the Netherlands is offering and what do you know? They actually offer a Borrelia-PCR for Saliva! Now I'm waiting on a call from them as to whether or not they actually have had positives with this. But think about if they have.(They are offering the test so right now my money is on yes otherwise they wouldnt offer it I guess) I mean ofcourse it would still only be DNA and not the actual Bacteria. Or well maybe the actual bacteria but it might also be DNA from dead ones destroyed by the immune-system, in which case it wouldnt be transmissable. But hey at least it's an interesting development don't you think? I'll keep you posted. And if you feel like replying, by all means, please do. I'm feeling kinda lonely out here the last few weeks smilewinkgrin
 
Greetings Chasz

james from missouri
Regular Member


Date Joined May 2009
Total Posts : 432
   Posted 7/15/2009 8:16 AM (GMT -6)   
i'm glad my g/f dumped me last week, because now i'm just paranoid that i can give this to anyone now. i don't think i couldn't kiss again though, i hope its not transferable, but who knows.. at least it isn't airborne yet

Chasz
New Member


Date Joined May 2009
Total Posts : 17
   Posted 7/15/2009 8:18 AM (GMT -6)   
Edit: I spoke to the people at the lab and they actually haven't had any positives with either the saliva PCR or the semen PCR, which it turns out they also offer. Not many people are taking these tests cause the whole discussion on the possible sexual transmission is relatively young. Usually it's just the blood and urine PCR that people take.
Now I'm gonna do my regular elisa in a couple of weeks just to check the values and after that I'm considering taking a PCR for semen and Saliva every four weeks or something. I mean hey, I started this thread so I might aswell show some commitment then. :-)
I'll keep you posted. By the way, does anyone know of a lab that has actually hit a positive on either a saliva or semen PCR? Besides from the Dr. Bach experiment?

My girlfriend dumped me too, but I still wasnt really all that glad about it, althought it certainly makes it impossible to infect her, that is for certain. Yet it hasnt been proven ofcourse that is is actually transmissable.

Good luck with it.

Post Edited (Chasz) : 7/15/2009 8:21:39 AM (GMT-6)


Miss3
Regular Member


Date Joined Sep 2008
Total Posts : 97
   Posted 7/15/2009 4:23 PM (GMT -6)   
These tests are just so inaccurate who really knows, ya know? My husband definately got his lyme from cutting himself while skinning a sick deer. He never had a tick bite at all. It was just two or three days later that he began to get deathly ill and was told he had the flu. Eventually he was hospitalized for five days and we were only told of the Rocky Mt. Spotted Fever but years later we got all the copies of his medical records with the positive lyme results also.
 I feel I got it from him and passed it onto our unborn child.
We've only done alternative treatment similar to the Cowden Protocol with great results thus far.
Before we realized why he's been so sick the past few years I had done probably thousands of hours of research trying to figure out how a guy in his early thirties has so many ailments, his main symptom was trigeminal neuralgia which is stabbing pain in the side of his head similar to an electrical shock. After sufferring immensely on major painkillers for several years the pain is gone after the alternative lyme treatment even though recent lyme tests only showed a little lyme, not enough to be considerred positive.
That to me is like telling someone they have a little cancer, well it's still there!
From all the hours I spent looking into lyme I'd bet most definitely it can be passed from person to person.
 
Miss

Turquoise Sky
Regular Member


Date Joined Apr 2009
Total Posts : 250
   Posted 7/15/2009 7:06 PM (GMT -6)   
Chasz,


I can understand your fears, and you have to do what you feel is right. I was infected since 2005 and my husband has not gotten it from me. We do use protection, but never even considered transmission from kissing.

Miss3,

Did you eat the meat? We eat a lot of deer meat. I would think if the deer was infected, cooking it would kill it, but now that I'm thinking about it, I'm not so hungry for venison. My husband spends a lot of time in the woods during hunting season, and for some reason he hasn't been bitten. I stepped outside the front door and pulled weeds for maybe 15 minutes in 2005, and I'm the one who got bitten, recently just had a relapse, treated for the relapse and got bitten again last month.

Miss3
Regular Member


Date Joined Sep 2008
Total Posts : 97
   Posted 7/16/2009 6:11 AM (GMT -6)   
I should have probably posted that we did not eat the meat from that deer. The only reason that we knew there was something wrong though was because the part where my husband shot her he tossed that part to a dog we had at the time and she sniffed it and walked away so we figurred we probably shouldn't eat it if the dog didn't want it. The deer's jaw was hanging funny but we thought she was shot or injurred. Looking back now, the worst problems my husband has had have been massive pain in his head and jaw area so I'm thinking neurological lyme issues from the ehrlichiosis we later found in his paperwork.
When you think of it, any animal at all could have lyme so unless you're willing to be a vegetarian the rest of you're life, you are taking that chance with any meat you eat. I would think thorough cooking would kill it but who really knows.
 
Miss

Chasz
New Member


Date Joined May 2009
Total Posts : 17
   Posted 9/11/2009 8:02 PM (GMT -6)   
Hi everyone,

I spoke to the people at the lab about setting up some sort of test-shedule and they informed me that they are no longer testing on saliva since there's too much interference from enzymes and stuff.
Not sure how I'm gonna proceed now. Probably do the blood, urine and semen pcr. Haven't thought of a schedule for this. I'll keep you posted.

Also I am interested if anyone in any other country then the Netherlands has tried PCR testing in semen or saliva and needless to say: what were the results of these tests?

Greetings Chasz
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