non-llmd docs who believe in lyme?

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gracietiger
Regular Member


Date Joined Dec 2008
Total Posts : 129
   Posted 7/2/2009 4:36 PM (GMT -6)   
Sorry if I am sounding like a lyme skeptic, but I'm just trying to understand all of this. I have been suffering from lots of symptoms, which came out of the blue, for years and have no diagnosis at all. I don't even fit a CFS bill.
However, I have to say, the more I learn about lyme, the more doubtful I grow. I can't help it. It seems that so many people are so quick to jump on a lyme's diagnosis, when there are SO many other medical problems that can occur with little to no explanation or way to test for it. I am not intending to offend anyone, I am just sharing my perspective and am hoping people can help educate me. I have to say in all honesty, I don't believe that just because I have a lot of "lyme" symptoms and no diagnosis must mean that I absolutely have lyme's. I'd like to learn more about the research and the facts that make people believe that it exists as something that can be cured, and not as something that causes a chronic immune response.
Also, one thing that makes me extremely dubious of lyme's, which I have expressed here before, is the whole culture of lyme's docs. Again, sorry, I know that there are some fabulous ones, and I have not personally met all of them, so I truly understand that I can't judge. Again, these are all personal opinions that I really can't help. But, I tend to just naturally be very skeptical of a field like that where people can just bank off of needy, desperate people. And again, I'm not criticizing us as desperate people; I am one of them so I know what it feels like to want to give anything for an answer. And I feel like, no matter how reasonable I think I am, someone could really take advantage of me by telling me things I want to hear.
Something that makes me wonder a great deal about lyme's is the fact that NONE of the very very very very good doctors I have seen (which have been MANY) believe in lyme's. In fact, almost all of them have tried to convince me that this whole lyme's thing is out of control, and way too many people are being overdiagnosed. I feel like there is a huge polarity between the "regular" docs (non-lyme's) and lyme docs. Why have I not met a single doctor, who has not chosen to become a full-time LLMD, but believes in it? It's hard for me to believe that just because a physician believes in lyme's means that physician is committed to helping only lyme's patients. So why, out of the two dozen docs I've seen, not one of them has believed in it? It's not even like they believe in it, but just don't treat it.
What causes this kind of polarity? Why aren't there more physicians who believe? Trust me, I have met some crappy physicians too. But overall, I feel that most have been incredibly intelligent and compassionate. Why are the only physicians willing to treat lyme's and speak up in support of believing in it the ones with these private clinics that can charge helpless people a huge amount of money to help them?

Again, this is my train of thought. I am not saying this is the reality, only how my brain works. I am from a line of lawyers, so it's in my genes; I am not trying to be insensitive on this forum. I am trying to be open-minded and learn more so I can see what all of you guys who have decided to pursue this route see. Has anyone asked these questions, or felt really, really doubtful? What made you to decide to continue down the path? I know I should trial a few months of abx, and see what happens, but I can't even bring myself to pay the $350 initial visit fee because of these questions. I think I need to have more literature first.

Thanks for listening and I hope you may be willing to help me better understand all of this.

CajunGrl
Veteran Member


Date Joined Mar 2009
Total Posts : 4717
   Posted 7/2/2009 5:51 PM (GMT -6)   
Gracietiger,

Maybe you do need to read up on this alot more. I mean, when Aids came out, this same thing happened. People were literally dying and doctors ""thought" it was something else. All I can see is it has something to do with insurance companies not wanting to pay for long term treatment. Some doctors ARE paid off by insurance companies. Most doctors are taught a certain way in school and that's what they adhere too. They do not think outside of the box. It is either black or white to them.

I suffered for many years with a diagnoses of Leaky Gut, CFS, Fibro, and the list goes on. For some unknown reasons, doctors aren't educated enough when it comes to Lyme Disease. And it is Lyme, not Lyme's, LOL. They treat the "symptoms" instead of digging deeper and listening to their patient. They are quick to say that it is all in your head when they cannot find an answer. I've been through this for years. This was uncalled for and I could have been treated earlier instead of bounced around from doctor to doctor. I would probably be able to work if I had been treated sooner.

This same exact thing happened with my Thyroid. I kept telling the doctors how bad I felt and that my thyroid felt swollen. For two years, they told me that all I had was hypothyroidism when in fact I had Hashimotos Thyroiditis. It blows my mind that these people are supposed to be so educated when most of the time I walk in knowing more than them.

You can sit back and be skeptical. It's YOUR body and your life but I want to ask you this....what's gonna happen when you are in my shoes and you can barely walk? If antibiotics would be a bad drug, I'd understand their thinking. It cannot hurt you. Also, if the darn Lyme test would me more reliable, people wouldn't be second guessing themselves like I did in 2007 when I could work and function. I would have gotten treated then.

Either way, it's your choice. I decided to dig deeper and I'm finally seeing little improvements. If you want to sit there and wait to "see" what happens, then that's on you. I just hope you don't get worse like half the people here...if in fact, you do have Lyme.
2003: symptoms started;panic attacks,anxiety,heightened senses.
2007: Diagnosed with Lyme. Didn't start treatment. 
2008: symptoms came back with a vengence.
2009: Diagnosed with Lyme plus co-infections....Babesia and Bartonella.
Illnesses:-Chronic Lyme Disease,Hashimotos Thyroiditis, Ulcers, Hypoglycemia
Medications:-Currently on 1000mg Amoxicillian,Ultram,Thyro Complex 60mg,Probiotics and supplements
**You never know how STRONG you are....until being STRONG is the ONLY choice you have.**

Post Edited (CajunGrl) : 7/2/2009 5:55:51 PM (GMT-6)


scorpio1960
Veteran Member


Date Joined Jan 2009
Total Posts : 914
   Posted 7/2/2009 6:16 PM (GMT -6)   
Well said CajunGrl.

Gracietiger,

I can understand anyone being skeptical but after you take the time to read and learn about Lyme Disease I doubt you will remain so. There's solid evidence to back it all up and I just wish I knew back then what I know now. I can barely move from the bed to the couch and wouldn't wish this on my worst enemy. The good news is that after many years of being misdiagnosed and mistreated, I am finally starting to see improvement with oral and IV antibiotics which is nothing short of a miracle in my book. The bad news is that quite a bit of damage has been done to my immune system, cns and brain over the years.

The very, very good doctors who I also went to were never taught about or given the research done on Lyme Disease. There were and still are being hand fed lies and half truths.

It was very hard for me to believe in the beginning but the more I read and the more I learned, it was hard not to. The fact that I have absolutely no body or joint pain today is all I need to believe.

I don't blame you for questioning it. I just ask that you continue to read and learn for your own sake.

ticker
Veteran Member


Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 9208
   Posted 7/2/2009 6:29 PM (GMT -6)   

Hi gracetiger.  I think many doctors focus mainly on their specialty.  If someone sees a neurologist, the doctor will evaluate the person for neurological contditions. 

What have the doctors you have seen diagnosed you with?

Have you had any Lyme testing done?

There are some diseases that are diagnosed through the process of eliminating other diseases.  There are some diseases that do not have a 100% accurate test.  Lyme disease can be one of these diseases.  Some Lyme doctors have either had the disease themselves or they have had someone close to them who has had it, so they know what it takes to treat it.  Many doctors learn very little about tick-borne diseases in medical school.  There is a lot more information known about them now than there was even ten years ago.  The majority of people who see mainstream doctors for Lyme usally do not get better or they do not stay well because they receive inadequate treatment.

As far as the prices that are charged, first visits are the most expensive because a very detailed history is taken and they typically average about two hours.  Follow-up visits are less.  Most Lyme doctors no longer take insurance because insurance companies no longer reimburse them.  You can submit the bills to your company for reimbursement.  Some companies pay more than others.  I have noticed in my area that many doctors of different specialties no longer take insurance.  This allows them to spend as much time with each patient as they need.  

I hope you can find out soon what is wrong.   Keep us posted.


scorpio1960
Veteran Member


Date Joined Jan 2009
Total Posts : 914
   Posted 7/2/2009 6:44 PM (GMT -6)   
LK, I know you're frustrated right now but you're lucky to have such a doctor. Many are very arrogant and hate to think they don't have all the answers. I've also been very fortunate in that all of the doctors I've been to over the years believed I was sick and tried to help me get better. Unfortunately, they didn't know I had Lyme because I kept testing negative on standard tests.

sjkly
Veteran Member


Date Joined Dec 2007
Total Posts : 2113
   Posted 7/2/2009 8:59 PM (GMT -6)   
You know, my rhuemy is a Lupus specialist. She treats me for RA. She and her practice list lyme disease as one of the conditions they treat. Its in their literature, however, none of the docs in the practice are dedicated only to the treatment of lyme disease.

CajunGrl
Veteran Member


Date Joined Mar 2009
Total Posts : 4717
   Posted 7/2/2009 9:05 PM (GMT -6)   
My doctor also treats other diseases including CFS, Fibro, etc. He's NOT just a Lyme doctor. He had Lyme Disease himself and realized that some of his patients that were going in to see him for CFS and Fibro, actually had Lyme Disease. Not all of them have Lyme though. He has a different protocol for CFS and Fibro.

I also wanted to add that my doctor does take insurance and the only money that ever came out of pocket for me was my co-pay and my Igenex WB test. So, he made the same amount of money he would have made if I would have went there for CFS.
2003: symptoms started;panic attacks,anxiety,heightened senses.
2007: Diagnosed with Lyme. Didn't start treatment. 
2008: symptoms came back with a vengence.
2009: Diagnosed with Lyme plus co-infections....Babesia and Bartonella.
Illnesses:-Chronic Lyme Disease,Hashimotos Thyroiditis, Ulcers, Hypoglycemia
Medications:-Currently on 1000mg Amoxicillian,Ultram,Thyro Complex 60mg,Probiotics and supplements
**You never know how STRONG you are....until being STRONG is the ONLY choice you have.**

Post Edited (CajunGrl) : 7/2/2009 9:09:03 PM (GMT-6)


Lovelabs
Regular Member


Date Joined Jun 2009
Total Posts : 367
   Posted 7/2/2009 9:17 PM (GMT -6)   
I think you have to go with your gut. Most people that finally make their way to a LLMD know that they have Lyme. And I really don't think LLMD's over diagnose Lyme. I think the patients that finally get an appointment with them do have Lyme and NEED treatment.

I had the rash, ignored it, thought it was ringworm or poison ivy. Never went to the doctors. Forgot about the rash. Over the next 5 months started developing symptoms.still had forgot about the rash. Had extreme pain. Thought I was getting RA. Went through 2 docs who didn't have a clue. Friend reminded me of the rash. She saw a special on "mystery diagnosis.". It all made sense. Tested negative but had reactive bands on WB. Diagnosed by a wonderful LLMD who is expensive and worth every penny. Slowly improving but also went 15 months with no meds.

I think that many doctors believe in Lyme but don't feel comfortable treating because their hands are tied by the IDSA. Most don't want to touch a Lyme patient with a ten foot pole. I know for a fact many physicians see LLMD's for their own treatment for Lyme. Very few will treat their own patients.

My Endo was fascinated at all of the info I had about Lyme. And was do happy I had a doctor that was thinking out of the box to help me.

A pediatrician in my town is very much on the lyme bandwagon and doesn't take it lightly at all. I think it just depends who you talk to. Even if the guidelines are changed I think docs still won't want to deal with it. Thank god there are those who will help us. My doc said if they took insurance my visit would be 10 minutes.

10 minutes is about the time that I spent with my ID doctor who misdiagnosed me. My insurance co still paid him about $200. My 1st appt with my LLMD was atleast 2 hours. And he is smart about everything not just Lyme.

So I guess my point is...you either feel a need to follow your gut or not. I never felt like I was being led down the wrong road with my LLMD. And as far as them not believing..(those docs you mentioned).don't think so. They believe. They just don't know how to deal with it so it is easier for them to take the high road.

+Lyme
Veteran Member


Date Joined Apr 2009
Total Posts : 1304
   Posted 7/2/2009 9:20 PM (GMT -6)   
My new PCP believes in Lyme. My LLMD was very impressed w/ the lab work that my PCP had ordered. And PCP was honest -- he said he could not evaluate or treat lyme disease and referred me to a LLMD. The Dr on whose waiting list I am on now is a Family Practioner, but he also specializes in Lyme. My insurance covers him.

I truly understand the questioning you are doing, Gracietiger (my favorite animal!). I think it is very good that you are doing that. Because we sure can't tell you that you have Lyme disease!

You DO need to find a Dr who will listen to you and who will care for you. If you go to a Dr and tell him you have the symptoms of Lyme disease and he dismisses this as garbage, then I would not consider him to be a very good Dr., regardless of whether you went in asking about lyme, lupus, cancer, or polio!

Regarding that $350 initial consultation: Rather than starting out w/ that, why don't you try asking your regular Dr for a lyme test? The western blot is covered by most insurance. If you the test thru a contracted lab, you will know up front that it is not as reliable or sensitive as the specialty labs' tests. However, you might learn something that may guide you in a certain direction. You might learn something that may help confirm a suspicion. Couldn't hurt...
Lyme in NC in 1971? Suspect TBI: Fully engorged tick followed by high fever and tonsillitis. Follwed by , lumps on neck,  chronic tonsillits w/ constant low grade to recurring high (104) fevers, severe unexplained neck stiffness and acute neck pain.   Followed by tonsillectomy, urinary tract infections, miscarriage, appendicitis while pregant, chronic severe back pain. Followed by depression, mild anxiety, mitral valve prolapse, and hypglycemia.  Was this a TBI??
 
Bit again couple of times, lyme suspect bite Mother's Day 2007. Bite, symptoms, lyme specific antibodies on the most lyme specific band of all = 39 IgG.  Still awaiting appt w/ LLMD.


Nicky D
Regular Member


Date Joined Jun 2009
Total Posts : 361
   Posted 7/2/2009 10:53 PM (GMT -6)   
Hi Gracie,

I also was skeptical of Lyme. The divide between the doctors is frustrating, and confusing. I'm not going to guess at the reasons for it, but I can tell you this- both sides of medical articles and research backing them up. BUT- only one side has the support of the patients. What it came down to for me, was reading all of the patient stories, and hearing all of the people who weren't cured by regular doctors, but were cured with LLMDs. I could believe that one or two of the stories were by crackpots...but there are HUNDREDS of people out there. I didn't find one story of people complaining of "over treatment" or of being too-quickly diagnosed with Lyme. But I did read hundreds of stories of people complaining about the regular medical community's lack of knowledge on Lyme.

RottenDog
Veteran Member


Date Joined Apr 2009
Total Posts : 1013
   Posted 7/2/2009 11:10 PM (GMT -6)   
Nicky D, your one smart cookie there, you sumed it up perty good there :) my hats off to you.
   RD
 
still looking for answers.
 
Remember that advice if free, its your choice what you do with it.  :)


Spacie Gracie
Regular Member


Date Joined Nov 2007
Total Posts : 67
   Posted 7/2/2009 11:24 PM (GMT -6)   
Hey Gracietiger..
I know how hard it is being so sick and not being able to study very well. So if that's what's kept you from keepin' up the enlightening of Lyme i'm sorry.

But it sounds to me like what you may have read or wherever you got these doubts from, that you were talking about up there... sounds like you've been reading or talking to doctors who go by the IDSA terms....?

From what you've said i'm guessin' ya don't know about them. The IDSA are the guys who made Lyme complicated to begin with; those are the 14 freakazoids who are the governing body-medical society that has been found out to be a crrrap load 'a crooks.
There is a lot lot to be learned there for you before you can go on saying things like this. The doctors you talk to have no choice but to go by the IDSA guidelines, even if the MD's had the time to study this they would still be bound by the specialist medical societies unless they decided to stick their necks out like LLMD's.

Here's a link about the whole thing... go wayy back and start at the bottom and read on up...

www.lymepolicywonk.com

That should answer all your questions up there, and you just gotta gotta it's a must see the documentary-Under Our Skin... ya just order it and sit in your very own home in your very own favorite chair with your very own possibly bad for the lyme food :D lol.

The CT attorney general Blumenthal found those buttox heads guilty of anti-trust thingy-ma-do's... bad bad boys sooo here's another deal...

...you can see a formal hearing about it up close and personal alll for yo weeee little self on Juuuly 40th or is it the 30th? HA no it's def the 30 cause it ain't leap frog year! Duh Gracieee. I mean me Gracie.. sorry no i'm snot 'duhing' you haha just meee.
Anywayy if ya like the lawyer sheeeet you gunna love dis ;) lol.
Then maybe after you have viewed, read and processed all this info then you can make the best decision for you but this time based off of hearin both sides officially with the science...rather than the docs who must go by their med society guidelines(or else) aka IDSA=proven crooks.

Everyone who wrote to you has some great points so i hope you'll take their advice and experience. I have to say something and i hope you don't take it as rude, it's not meant to be, it's just a fact..

Lyme doctors not only save lives but they stick their necks out and put their own self preservation on the line... so i really don't get how you can justify the things you're saying, and i know you said you didn't mean to offend anybody but ya kinda did me.
You don't have a diagnosis, you're sick, you don't have any experience w/Lyme doctors that i know of, and apparently don't have all the facts, or at least both sides speakin skeptically.

However that is what we're all doing, and guess what? Many of us ARE getting better thanks to the LLMD's you're rippin on, so please cut that out b/c when you say those things it's like you're dissing on me and everyone here who has helped you and me and each other. If you're that convinced Lyme docs are a rip off do you think it would be best for you to just move on? I don't understand why you're still here, then again i do miss things so maybe i misunderstood something?

You bein' the Pac Man of LLMD's ain't helping those who are new to Lyme and are learning about LLMD's when they read several posts like yours. I'm sorry to be so blunt but i've been through a lot and because of people saying things like what you're saying - i have become deathly ill at times. The docs you diss on are the docs who have saved my life more than once, maybe that helps you know why i'm being blunt ya know?

Ok i'll shut up now haha sorry i hope the link helps you to see both sides because i really really want you to get the help you need no matter what it is or how you get it, nobody deserves this misery. I'd be willing, would love to help anyone anytime anywhere as long as they had an open mind to look at A AND B not just A. So hang in there Tiger, you definitely seem to be strong enough! :)
~Spacie Gracie
"What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matter compared to what lies within us" - Emerson

"Hard work beats talent when talent doesn't work hard"- adopted by TEAL (the acrobat in me)


bablymers
Veteran Member


Date Joined Oct 2006
Total Posts : 1458
   Posted 7/3/2009 12:34 AM (GMT -6)   
Hi gracietiger,

You may find this aticle helpful.
http://www.jobsoneducation.com/cliniciansCME/index.asp?show=lesson&page=courses/105213/lesson.htm&lsn_id=105

I am confident you will find lots of information during your research that will help you solve your own health issues. I hope your return to good health comes quickly.

Best wishes. bablymers mom

scorpio1960
Veteran Member


Date Joined Jan 2009
Total Posts : 914
   Posted 7/3/2009 7:57 AM (GMT -6)   
SpacieGracie, I am so glad to hear you are doing better and think your response is nothing short of fantastic.

+Lyme
Veteran Member


Date Joined Apr 2009
Total Posts : 1304
   Posted 7/3/2009 10:11 AM (GMT -6)   
I feel that in all fairness, we should not be too hard on Gracietiger here at this point.  She is admitting that she doesn't know, she is asking the questions, and in all fairness, she doesn't know any of us at all.  She admits she is here looking for information, yet how can she know we are not just a bunch of kooks.  It is a fact that there are a lot of kooks out there and they blog, too.  I am betting that each of us could go out there and find blogs about things we do not believe in, on which folks have stated all kinds of unfeasible stuff that they have proof for or believe in.
 
This is NOT to say that ANYONE on THIS blog sounds this way. But how is Gracietiger to know this?  Most of us came here already believing we had Lyme and most posts here reinforce our conviction.  But this seems not to be so for GT. She is still looking for answers and questioning important things that will affect her health and her entire life. She's treading carefully.
 
Although, GT, I do think you could have tried to word this  less offensively and w/ a bit more information:  'NONE of the very very very very good doctors I have seen (which have been MANY) believe in lyme's.'
 
 If this regards only the Drs you have seen, then that's one thing.  But the number of 'verys' seems to imply that our LLMDs are not very good Drs. 
 
With some effort, you can go out there and learn that there are very very very very very very very very very GOOD Drs who are studying, treating and publishing on Lyme.  Follow up links on their pieces, follow up on sources in their bibliographies. These Drs are not quacks. They are ions ahead of  many other Drs.
 
Some of the very good Drs you have seen do not believe in Lyme because the ID society doesn't. So they have not done ANY research on the disease, so they really have no basis for not believing. This is very concerning.  I choose to stick w/ the Drs who have done research, and not those who have not.
 
GT, the other thing you can do is some research on all the nasty stuff ticks carry. Given the explosion of the tick population and the number of diseases they carry, it is actually a shock that more people do NOT have the disease.  Or maybe many do, but their bodies fight it off, and we are the ones who did not succeed.
 
Here is one simple, significant  factual point that you might find it helpful when trying to weigh a Drs intelligence about Lyme:  When our regular Drs (including infectious disease Drs -- those who will even consider the possibility) order the western blot, they are ordering a lab test that is based on what was known in 1994.  There has been an immense amount of research since that date, yet the labs do not even have the capacity to test or read the signifcant bands on this test.  I do not consider this to be very very very very good.  Yet the very very very good Drs will still order this outdated test and they will rely on the outdated guidelines for reading and evaluating it.  And they will reject a diagnosis, even if the results are pointing to a possible diagnosis. I believe this is negligence.
 
I sympathizie w/ spaciegracie's response -- I understand how tiger's post could have made her feel.  But I feel, that unless someone here is being downright rude, offensive, or calling us liars, we could just try to point them in the right directions -- actually, just as SG did, and try not to take offense.
 
Who knows, in all GT's research and searches for The Truth, maybe she will learn some new things that may help us!
 
GT, are we to assume you have not had any lab work done yet?
Lyme in NC in 1971? Suspect TBI: Fully engorged tick followed by high fever and tonsillitis. Follwed by , lumps on neck,  chronic tonsillits w/ constant low grade to recurring high (104) fevers, severe unexplained neck stiffness and acute neck pain.   Followed by tonsillectomy, urinary tract infections, miscarriage, appendicitis while pregant, chronic severe back pain. Followed by depression, mild anxiety, mitral valve prolapse, and hypglycemia.  Was this a TBI??
 
Bit again couple of times, lyme suspect bite Mother's Day 2007. Bite, symptoms, lyme specific antibodies on the most lyme specific band of all = 39 IgG.  Still awaiting appt w/ LLMD.


+Lyme
Veteran Member


Date Joined Apr 2009
Total Posts : 1304
   Posted 7/3/2009 11:24 AM (GMT -6)   
Killer, I do not remember if brain fog was one of my first symptoms -- because back then I was not linking my problems to the tick bite.  As I recall (and my daughter confers), I believe I was mildly ill first, but I cannot say that the cognitive thing was not yet evident. I was unemployed and then started a new job and that is when the brain problems AND severe anxiety became most evident.  This was just under one month after the bite.
 
I had a lot of problems at my new job because I could not remember ANYTHING during training. I was confused and way behind the other trainees on the computer part of the training. I already had anxiety and then this caused even more. I could not concentrate on anything and I remember my nasty little team leader saying, 'Do you realize I answered that question 5 minutes ago?' And 'Becky, we hired what we believed was an experienced processor.'
 
LK, I have NEVER in my life experienced ANYTHING like this, EVER.  I was confused, could not concentrate, could not think, could not remember, it felt like my mind was totally out of control. It was about the worst experience I ever had in my life.  It felt like a living nightmare. I had to start taking  a xanax to go to work and halves of xanax to get thru the day because it caused so much anxiety. The anxiety hit like a Mac truck, too.  So I'm sure that didn't help the brain fog either.  Also, my depression hit rock bottom, it was just about unbearable.  I just thought it was me falling down.
 
Up to that point I have never in my life had a problem learning a new job or new programs. Not even during menopause
Back then I was only seeing a psyche for depression and anxiety meds. He upped my dose of both and the anxiety and a lot of the pain improved, even tho not all resolved. 
 
I had to quit that job because I couldn't take it.  When I look back, it's all a blur. Processing mortgages is/was a very stressful job back then (when it was crazy busy), so I'm sure this was not the ideal position to be in while ill.
 
It was a newspaper article and this forum that made me realize these were symptoms of lyme.  
 
Brain fog, I don't know. I am learning what I need to at my new job, but I KNOW I have been learning it about 20 X slower than I have ever before.  This boss eased me into the work extremely carefully and thoroughly and that helped a LOT.   I work w/ a couple of older ladies that go spacey a lot, so at least I don't feel as defective, except when they show me errors I have made that I do not even recall making.
 
My LLMD diagnosed lyme based on my positive 39, plus symptoms and the bite. I asked him what it meant if I only had that band positive.  He said he was surprised that I did not have a positive 41 and that 41 almost always is present w/ a lyme specific band. He said he knew the test was not sensitive enough and maybe that was why.  He said the positive 39 meant I had a lyme infection.
 
I must tell you that when I reread Dr Burr's Guidelines, I believe he stated that a positive species specific band does not necessarily indicate an active infection.  However, Dr J and Dr S say that it does.
 
Anyway, LLMD ordered a CD57 which he believes is more accurate (since I don't have the $$ for all the igenex tests).  He also ordered another WB from the same lab just for the heck of it. I had got up w/ an achey day, so hope that might have meant more antibodies present.
 
Killer, if you have not already read Dr. Burr's Guidelines which are in the newbies section, I strongly suggest that you do.  I had read it early on, but did not absorb a lot of stuff because it was so new to me. I started reading it again the other day and I remember thinking that Lymekiller needs to read this.
 
I highly recommend this to all newbies and anyone who has not yet read it. It is highly recommended by others on this board.
 


Lyme in NC in 1971? Suspect TBI: Fully engorged tick followed by high fever and tonsillitis. Follwed by , lumps on neck,  chronic tonsillits w/ constant low grade to recurring high (104) fevers, severe unexplained neck stiffness and acute neck pain.   Followed by tonsillectomy, urinary tract infections, miscarriage, appendicitis while pregant, chronic severe back pain. Followed by depression, mild anxiety, mitral valve prolapse, and hypglycemia.  Was this a TBI??
 
Bit again couple of times, lyme suspect bite Mother's Day 2007. Bite, symptoms, lyme specific antibodies on the most lyme specific band of all = 39 IgG.  Still awaiting appt w/ LLMD.

Post Edited (+Lyme) : 7/3/2009 11:30:59 AM (GMT-6)


CajunGrl
Veteran Member


Date Joined Mar 2009
Total Posts : 4717
   Posted 7/3/2009 12:08 PM (GMT -6)   
GracieTiger,

I hope you don't take offense to anyones post here. We DO want to help you if you need help....whether it be Lyme or anything else that is making you sick. We have all been through so much and some of us are still a little hurt and angry about everything we have been through. I had to try to express myself enough so that you felt like you were in my shoes. It's a tough battle to fight when a person is so sick. I actually felt better last year. I guess my body was a little stronger but I went to college and finished with a 3.9. I had to push myself really hard. I still had symptoms, but not nearly as bad as I do now. So, I finish school and I'm so excited because I've been wanting to go back to school for a LONG time. By the way, I'm 39, so yes, I waited a long time. So, I'm all excited and them BAM!!!! I can barely bend my fingers!?! I'm feeling real sick like I have the flu. Stiff neck, floaters in eyes, pain in muscles and joints. Omg! Why now!?! Guess what I went to school for? Drawing blood. Great! I cannot use my fingers because they won't bend right. All that time and effort and here I am now...sitting on my couch barely being able to move. I have not worked since I finished school. That's where all the anger and compassion comes from. I wouldn't be this way if I had gotten diagnosed earlier. It will be a long hard road for me. I wanted to go to nursing school. I have to wait now and it's not like I'm getting any younger. I pray to God that my mind is functioning back where it was last year IF I do get a chance to go back to school. I HAD a dream and a plan, but that dream and plan has been squashed for now. <sigh>

I only hope that you can figure out what is wrong with you before it is too late.
2003: symptoms started;panic attacks,anxiety,heightened senses.
2007: Diagnosed with Lyme. Didn't start treatment. 
2008: symptoms came back with a vengence.
2009: Diagnosed with Lyme plus co-infections....Babesia and Bartonella.
Illnesses:-Chronic Lyme Disease,Hashimotos Thyroiditis, Ulcers, Hypoglycemia
Medications:-Currently on 1000mg Amoxicillian,Ultram,Thyro Complex 60mg,Probiotics and supplements
**You never know how STRONG you are....until being STRONG is the ONLY choice you have.**

Post Edited (CajunGrl) : 7/3/2009 12:12:31 PM (GMT-6)


Really Lyme
Regular Member


Date Joined Jan 2007
Total Posts : 219
   Posted 7/3/2009 1:18 PM (GMT -6)   
I have seen all the best Drs in Oregon and tested CDC positive for Lyme 8 times from 4 different Labs. Yet I have only been Diagnosed with MS in Oregon and never Lyme. Well I guess thats not true.  my Nuero actually gave me 30 days Doxy after the local CDC called him and said I deffinitly had Lyme and needed treatment. 30 days was not enough after all that time went buy. The Good Drs didn't care about me.
 
Thank you Drs who hold up the medical oath Do No Harm. Because the best Drs in Oregon have harmed me.
Finding Peace In This Crazy World !
 
Beth
 
FIRST POSITIVE LYME TEST IN NOVEMBER OF 2004
DX- WITH MS  APRIL OF 2005
DX- WITH LYME JULY OF 2006
FINALLY TREATED FOR LYME JANUARY 2007


gracietiger
Regular Member


Date Joined Dec 2008
Total Posts : 129
   Posted 7/3/2009 6:29 PM (GMT -6)   
Hi guys,
I just moved yesterday, and my new internet is haywire, so I don't have very much time to respond to this post, though I have a lot of thoughts.
I just want to thank ALL of you so much for sharing your thoughts, reactions and insights.
For those who found my post offensive, i TOTALLY understand why you got that impression, and re-reading my post, I found it to not be articulating what I actually feel and think, which tends to be the case oftentimes these days.
I want to say that I am by no means knocking any LLMDs. AT ALL. I am inherently skeptical of all doctors, because I have seen some really shady ones. And I can't remember if I made clear in my post that I have NOT seen a LLMD so I have no experience to go on. I am just skeptical of doctors who don't accept insurance and work in more controversial fields of medicine, as I think many doctors are motivated by money and will do whatever it takes to get it. I may have mentioned here on this board that a person I knew very well in college attends a very prestigious medical school and told me after his second year, before I was even sick, that he was going to be a "lyme doc" because they "bank." I don't think that's still the plan, but that kind of resounded with me, years later, now that I am suffering from a very mysterious, undiagnosed illness. Likewise, I am skeptical of other doctors who are in a similar kind of field like all the "pot docs" out here in CA and fertility docs. Again, I think some are fantastic, but it's just in my nature to be skeptical.
When I say I am skeptical, I am not saying that these docs are not good, not compassionate, not in it for the right reason, nor that any of you have not had anything but wonderful experiences with them. I really tried to make clear that my thoughts that I expressed are not ones that I am trying to rub off on anyone else, and in fact, I'd actually like to get rid of them! I was just saying that I, as a person, for whatever reason - genetics, upbringing in a family of lawyers, etc, am just skeptical of stuff like that, but not that any of you should be.
Trust me, I am sick too, and I am no better than any doctor or form of treatment or anyone willing to do whatever it takes to get better. I would give up a limb to get rid of all my other symptoms. I'd honestly give up almost anything. So I really don't want you guys to think I'm coming here with some "here's the deal" attitude like you don't know what you're talking about and I do. I actually really have no idea what I'm talking about and I don't really know where to start learning more of the facts.
One thing I did try to express is that I do think there are a lot of faults within the lyme "movement," so you can say, as there are with ANYTHING. I think there are products and companies that are just trying to make money off a group of sick people willing to do anything to get better. And some doctors. However, I also think there are products and doctors who are doing really good things for lyme. I just want to know how to differentiate.
Something I will stand by, that might offend again, but please let me remind that I am not saying this to anyone personally here or regarding their doctors, but I think that lyme can be misdiagnosed. Again, I find it almost impossible not to, as tests are inaccurate and symptoms are like those of many other conditions.
One of the reasons I am so cautious about all this is because I really have NO reason to believe I have lyme other than the fact that I haven't been diagnosed with anything else. I took an Igenex test and was only positive for band 41 and had an IND on 31. I got sick suddenly at 23 years old, after returning from living in rural Africa. I have no recollection of being bit by a tick. I know that is not a requirement as I have had a deer tick on me before and I know how small they are! But I really feel that there are a lot of things that can go wrong in the human body that doctors can't even fathom yet and lyme is only one of possibly hundreds.
I took doxycycline as an antimalarial drug when I lived in Africa and it didn't suit me well. It made my skin feel like it was on fire, literally, if I was in the sun for more than five minutes. I live in California, so that could be really tough. I generally am very sensitive to medications and I have found antibiotics to not sit in my stomach well either. For me to just trial abx is not as innoculous as I would like, which only enhances my drive to better understand all this.
Anyways, I have to go before this crashes on me and I lose all this, but all I really want to say right now is that I am not meaning to offend anyone here, at all. Many of you have been so kind to me, and even reached out to me beyond the board, so there is no way I could ever come here and say that you guys should be skeptical too and your doctors are fools. No way. For all of you who said your doctors have saved your lives, you have no idea how much I get the importance of that. I would never ever doubt that, and at the end of the day, the fact people get better from the treatment of lyme, is the one thing that I think proves its existence.
Also, thanks for pointing out that it's lyme, not lyme's. HAha. I guess I just assumed that Lyme, CA owns it.
Thanks to everyone, I hope to address more of the factual comments later when I have a chance to more thoroughly read.

CajunGrl
Veteran Member


Date Joined Mar 2009
Total Posts : 4717
   Posted 7/3/2009 11:46 PM (GMT -6)   
Gravies Mom,

I just wanted to say that GracieTiger posted in LymeKillers thread first, then made her own post. She thought he was new here and didn't know he had Lyme specific bands.

Just wanted you to know that. How are you feeling?
2003: symptoms started;panic attacks,anxiety,heightened senses.
2007: Diagnosed with Lyme. Didn't start treatment. 
2008: symptoms came back with a vengence.
2009: Diagnosed with Lyme plus co-infections....Babesia and Bartonella.
Illnesses:-Chronic Lyme Disease,Hashimotos Thyroiditis, Ulcers, Hypoglycemia
Medications:-Currently on 1000mg Amoxicillian,Ultram,Thyro Complex 60mg,Probiotics and supplements
**You never know how STRONG you are....until being STRONG is the ONLY choice you have.**


CajunGrl
Veteran Member


Date Joined Mar 2009
Total Posts : 4717
   Posted 7/4/2009 12:21 AM (GMT -6)   
You're making my head spin! Haha! I had to read your post three times before I understood, LOL. Sorry, I upped my antibiotics and my brain is not functioning to it's full capacity.

Anyway, she posted on LymeKillers thread first and my time said yesterday at 4:19pm. Then she posted her own thread right after at 4:36pm.
2003: symptoms started;panic attacks,anxiety,heightened senses.
2007: Diagnosed with Lyme. Didn't start treatment. 
2008: symptoms came back with a vengence.
2009: Diagnosed with Lyme plus co-infections....Babesia and Bartonella.
Illnesses:-Chronic Lyme Disease,Hashimotos Thyroiditis, Ulcers, Hypoglycemia
Medications:-Currently on 1000mg Amoxicillian,Ultram,Thyro Complex 60mg,Probiotics and supplements
**You never know how STRONG you are....until being STRONG is the ONLY choice you have.**


RottenDog
Veteran Member


Date Joined Apr 2009
Total Posts : 1013
   Posted 7/4/2009 12:29 AM (GMT -6)   
CG dont feel to bad i also had to read it a few times b4 i understod it ;)

sorry gracie's mom. its not your post it my mind not wanting to wrap its selve around things
   RD
 
still looking for answers.
 
Remember that advice if free, its your choice what you do with it.  :)


CajunGrl
Veteran Member


Date Joined Mar 2009
Total Posts : 4717
   Posted 7/4/2009 2:44 AM (GMT -6)   
Gracie's Mom,

I'm confused. Maybe I misunderstood you. I thought that you thought that Tiger had posted her own post first, then posted in LymeKillers thread.

Just don't mind me. My brain fog is kicking in.
2003: symptoms started;panic attacks,anxiety,heightened senses.
2007: Diagnosed with Lyme. Didn't start treatment. 
2008: symptoms came back with a vengence.
2009: Diagnosed with Lyme plus co-infections....Babesia and Bartonella.
Illnesses:-Chronic Lyme Disease,Hashimotos Thyroiditis, Ulcers, Hypoglycemia
Medications:-Currently on 1000mg Amoxicillian,Ultram,Thyro Complex 60mg,Probiotics and supplements
**You never know how STRONG you are....until being STRONG is the ONLY choice you have.**


sojourner
Veteran Member


Date Joined Apr 2006
Total Posts : 1173
   Posted 7/5/2009 1:38 PM (GMT -6)   
This was a gr8 thread generated by Gracetiger. I just read through everyone's responses and could not help but appreciate, once again, the articulate, intelligent, wise, well-researched, respectful, human beings that have been brought together here.

Lyme. True Lyme.. and its 'package' brings so many paradigms with it.

I was so very confused the first year that Heather was dx. (we are in the beginning of her fourth year of treatment, no longer on ABX - she is drug resistant through no fault of her own)

Back then, as several dear ones here can validate (and u are welcome to let loose) I vacillated between 'today I am sure' to some of the same questions that you are bringing up, Gracetiger. I am glad that you brought them into the open for this type of discussion. I also appreciate that everyone was chiming in with credible answers. This is what will quiet the mouths of the lions who claim that some forums are loaded with people who hype, mis-lead and default everyone into one lane.

Gracetiger, you have been given tremendous advice. It is for a reason that you laid your heart out on the line and your doubts will dwindle as you continue to seek credible research. It is also for a reason that you are researching and have been led here. I do not know what that means for u yet. While I do not know if your body is battling this pathogen, I do know that with the right professional who is trained to include Lyme as a differential aspect of his clinical diagnosis, you will know what is right for you, and if so, at some point learn which treatment method most applies for you.

In every field of scope, there are those who bring a blemish to the truth. Careful research weeds that out, so stay the course.

Keep asking good questions and listen to what can be substantiated w/science, then marry that w/wisdom knowing that politics are heavily involved in this disease.

We are caught in a period in history where the answers are emerging; but, we also have much science to rely on if it is permitted to be included for the sake of the patient and practitioner.

You need to have a clear periscope of your own medical history; a time line, copies of all historical medical records and a daily calendar to help guide you. Marry that w/well researched equipping and you will know. At some point you will be confident and know that you must move forward with whatever the decision.

When Heth was late, late diagnosed w/Lyme after 15 years of searching, asking, persisting, we had a test that happened to offer positive bands and we were not even considering Lyme. BUT, we (the Bear and I) had reached a point where we no longer had confidence in the medical community. It had failed our daughter, my husband and I had huge doubts.

I set out on a little something I like to call my own game of 'Clue'. My goal: to disprove 'their' theory. By the time I finished just round 1, I was sitting in front of a computer screen well into the wee hours of the morning, crying in despair to God. I knew that what I had finished in no less than several hundred hours of reading, weeding, researching - that this was my daughter's history, that they had missed it and I was devastated to realize that we were very, very late intervening. I was terrified. I was able to piece a time line together; not trying to fit her into it; but to disprove it. I could not. I had to channel my terror into a plan with a purpose. Bear was steady and trusting which helped keep our boat afloat.

BUT, I still had doubts. Who were we to believe. Enter phase 2 (many of our friends here are nodding like that puppy in the back of the car window at this point)... We respectfully asked for a copy of her tests (oh, the broad smorgasboard of tests that had been run for the first time in her life - revealing and validating the dx..)

We had traveled to this particular physician thinking she was battling something completely different; but HE was the one who said, "We are not going to put all of our eggs in one basket". After spending hours with us, (I) asked the doc if he would be offended if we took copies of the tests and went for a second opinion. He smiled, (empathetically) and handed everything over to us. I think he knew we would meet again :) More indepth methodical research.. more.

And we moved on to the next stop - in a completely different state after another couple hundred hours of researching and asking. But, not before this 2nd physician was kind enough to 'give' us 2 hours of his time on the phone, discussing in-depth our test results. All of them. Not diagnosing, but simply educating to help us decide whether we should consider the trip for an appointment. He did not tell us what to do. He simply and very patiently answered all of our questions. Credibilty personified. We sked. the appointment the next day.

By the way, we do not have the financial means for this type of scavenge hunt; but, we realized that we were facing a life and death situation and needed to be sure, then commit or move on.

Another 3 hours spent w/this specialist - a leading physician and scientist who graciously answered all of my skeptical questions. And who, by the way, offered the most in-depth in clinic physical and detailed history we'd ever known. Taught us 'through' the appointment. Did not talk at us; but, spoke to us w/gr8 respect. He saw the trauma of her suffering and our beaten down family.

By the way, in our circle of health care providers to include multiple physical therapies, inside and now out of our team - I am well known to be the 'Mom of a thousand questions'.

The second doctor, like the first physician, did not default to Lyme. There was a detailed history through great grandparents, incredible testing and a professional, cohesive differential diagnosis. Much was ruled out - appropriately. We asked him if everyone he saw had Lyme? He said, no! He gave us examples of some rare, genetic or 'mis-diagnosed by other physician'-type scenerios that were ultimately the answers for these particular families.

There were additional immune complexes, natural killer cell, anti-nuclear antibody, multi-immune viral panels run, in addition. There were a host of labs to nail down where deficiencies may have not yet been captured and a plan was devised.

BUT, that still did not win me completely over. What it did do was add to my anxious thoughts, my fears, my grief b/c I was understanding more and more what we were up agains and that there was no way out of the reality that had caused my daughter a life time of roller coaster suffering. We were reaching that place in the cross-roads where we were well equipped and no longer in denial. I knew that she was chemically sensitive to... everything and I dreaded the options. This was angering and literally devastating for a mother. I am not alone here. But, this was my child. And we had to do something.

Sooooo..I respectfully asked one of the top scientific-Lyme doctors in the world if HE would be offended if we went for a 3rd opinion. He smiled, too. He said gently, "do not wait too long. Your daughter is a very sick girl." I think he knew he would see us again, too. He wrote out his orders for us to take along. He and our first doctor spoke on the phone on Heather's behalf - true to their word. I stuffed the prescriptions as far back in the folder as I could get them. I did not want to see it.

At the third opinion which now invited complimentary medicine to the team (one very brilliant man) (and by the way, each doctor was added to a team. It was prayed over and even though I was in a denial-research state, I think I was inately being prepared for reality)...each doctor was asked if they would work with the others in communication so that there would be no contraindications for Heather. Yes. Everyone agreed and everyone kept their word. Integrity at its greatest hour!

We had to have an integrative approach and we now believe this team was an answer to prayer. Hers became one of those 'Spacie-Gracie-like stories'.

Our third doctor, separate from the other two concluded the same diagnosis. All were regretful that we were 'in this place'. All very supportive. No one blew smoke, and in fact, all have been gracious and sacrificial.

We went on to build a huge team. Why? B/c of the late dx and the elusive nature of the bacteria, co-infections, accompanying virus's, immune destruction, deficiencies - her body (not her spirit!) - could not handle the drugs, the therapies and the die-offs. She was on baby doses and would herx horrifically; her liver could not handle the toxicity; her elimination channels blocked by years of toxicity unidentified and not necessarily visible. We had to carefully tiptoe through every step of protocol, detox. Her brain was involved, neuro-Lyme, mulitple co-infections, virus's all surfaced over time.

What was only somewhat visible to the eye in terms of how much Lyme in the beginning, began to later be revealed as her immune system, into the 2nd year, began to wake up. This was after we had nearly lost her (how many times to my dear friends here?? - those of you who have also fought for your childrens' lives?..time and time again?)...several times.

We have learned that our role is not one of convincing others that they have Lyme; but to respectfully be available to guide others to their own answers. We have learned from years of experience who is credible and where to run from. First do no harm is not at the top of the pecking order in the hearts of many involved in this political warfare and it behooves the patients to educate and equip themselves so that they can appropriately rule Lyme in or out. It should be part of a differential diagnosis under the watchful eye of trained physicians.

Doctors on the front lines are not fully equipped to do this yet. Some of this is b/c of the politics, driven by commerce, pharmica, bad ethical behavior and selfish motive; some, sadly falls on the part of practitioners who have fallen prey to this type of medical cattle-herding and who over time became puppets within their own society. They lost their passion from being dictated to-under the umbrellas of corporate business plans. When a physician is told they have to meet an 8-minute patient criteria, 8-patient every hour mandate, they are worn out and submitting to the ropes that tie their hands, dictating how they utilize their time, exhausting any hope for continued learning.

I am able to say this b/c our family, like others here, now serve voluntarily as national and at times international educators and patient to physician liaisons. It is a high calling. We march to the beat of a high standard and represent both patient and physician, science and prevention.

We meet w/doctors frequently and I hear their stories. Many have been serving for many years and do not want to become Lyme specialists in their hometowns. Why? B/c they have a sense of reality now and are beginning to grasp the complexities and do not wish to be Lyme specialists. They know their patients are sick; but they are either afraid of the medical review board or IDSA pressures and fear for their practice or are confused by the messages being conveyed and simply no longer have time or are willing to take the time necessary to research it out. But, once you lay science on the table (most respectfully, since I am not the Phd)..credible, inarguable science, any sarcasm or ignorance usually ends. But, like you, dear Gracetiger, there still remains skepticism. Who do we believe.

Once they do their homework (and most that we meet with slowly but surely do (b/c we build on relationships so that there is a healthy confidence :), they begin to see truths and are able to discern more clearly. This is when we are able to bridge professional relationships w/Lyme specialists and invite physicians into accredited training grant CME programs. Valid, scientific, valuable training. I have yet to meet a doc who after completing the shadowing training who is not a transformed human being. At some point, the argument, the doubt - dies. Eyes are opened and patients are helped.

But, up to that point there is so much confusion.

The IDSA guidelines are narrow and outdated. This is a proven fact from the CT Attorney General's very credible anti-trust investigation that led to a re-convening of a NEW panel of board members (under an ethics ombudsman) to include presenters who will speak to both sides of the two standards of care. Listen to their mandated public hearing on July 30th and determine for your own personal well-being who is representing the patient and who may be defending a 'position' or a 'cause'. I have initiated a thread announcing the details of this, by the way.

While there is much in the rhetoric, which has subsequently flowed down through the ranks, my ongoing question is this...

...If one does not believe that persistent infection exists, or if one believes as is stated by the (IDSA) that patients continue to suffer, BUT science does not exist to explain these symptoms and how to properly resolve them...then WHY are these very same voices not investing research dollars for the answers?

Why are (they) stopping an incredible piece of legislation (HR1179) that would offer those answers in research and development, a gold standard test for every phase of the disease, appropriate treatment guidelines for every phase of the disease to include its complexities and variables, mandated insurance coverage for EVERY patient and education to our front line physicians and every specialty so that Lyme, particularly in endemic areas of the country becomes SOP (Standard Operating Procedure) as part of differentially diagnosing a patient who suffers from multi-system, multi-complex, multi-symptoms to ensure properly, cohesive, covered treatment for and protected from psychiatric dx.

It is simply wrong that patients and physicians are suffering at the hands of this type of behavior. This is why physicians are opting out of insurance coverage. If an unknown doctor behind the scenes of an insurance company says, 'no, we will not cover that'; it is acceptable practice without question. It takes the diagnosing physician out of the picture and becomes a cat and mouse chase. Is it right? No, absolutely not.

What can we do? Speak out in the right places? Go to your representatives, write to your insurance companies, help move the legislation, educate and equip yourself to speak beyond the questions in a way that helps you advocate for your health and well-being.

My families faith in certain physician is restored. We were led to the most incredible docs. They do not claim to have all of the answers; but, they have walked the long mile in our mocassins and have helped us carry Heather through her life-threatening battle. She is at a different place now. She has a ways to go in remediation and with persistence of 'whatever we want to call it'. We are blessed as are many here to have very smart doctors who were willing to put their life, their reputations, their practice and yes for some, even their families on the line for the sake of the patient. I'd say that's pretty impressive. But, sometimes, it is only when we are able to look back are we able to truly understand and see.

So, stay the course Gracetiger. You have the ability to see beyond the black and white. It will shatter some things that you have believed; but will be replaced with a new appreciation for the truth. Legal minds think alike. Be careful though, b/c if you are not well, you will not want to lose valuable time stuck in the skepticism. Seek with wisdom and follow your heart. In the right hands, a doctor can help you determine if you are fighting this pathogen or another parasitical-region related bug and/or other. It is no wonder that Doxy and you collided under the African sun. I was sorry to see that.

If we can be of further service, feel free to email. There are wonderful physicians who will not default to Lyme; would include it as part of their clinical approach; but would also serve as another set of credible eyes to help uncover if there is something underlying that has not been yet identified for you.

Blessings,
Sojourner
~d
The best way to teach people is by telling a story. ~K.Blanchard
Keep telling your story and watch the tide turn!
God loves with a great love the man whose heart is bursting with a passion for the impossible. ~WmBooth
www.stylebyheatherrose.com


sojourner
Veteran Member


Date Joined Apr 2006
Total Posts : 1173
   Posted 7/5/2009 1:40 PM (GMT -6)   
Oh dear - I am in so much trouble. I just saw how long that post really is. Sooooo sorry. Neuro Lymies may wish to pass it by or bite it off in small nuggets. It took me a couple of hours between other things and I had no clue it turned out to be a publication. I know. I know. Too many words to convey the message. I'll just keep trying!



Blessings,
~d
The best way to teach people is by telling a story. ~K.Blanchard
Keep telling your story and watch the tide turn!
God loves with a great love the man whose heart is bursting with a passion for the impossible. ~WmBooth
www.stylebyheatherrose.com

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