Different Spirochetes that can cause Band 41 to show up on the WB

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CajunGrl
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Date Joined Mar 2009
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   Posted 9/27/2009 3:21 AM (GMT -6)   
Spirochetes are the other major type of bacteria that we look for under the microscope. These are corkscrew type, snake-like bacteria. Although there are different types of spirochetes, the one in the mouth is called Treponema Denticola. As an aside, the spirochete called Treponema Pallidum cause syphilis and another type of spirochete called Borellia Burgdorferei causes Lyme disease. All three types of spirochetes are bad guys. But in terms of periodontal microscopic assessment we are concerned when we find the spirochete Treponema Denticola, which has been shown to be associated with periodontal disease.

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**You never know how STRONG you are....until being STRONG is the ONLY choice you have**

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Post Edited (CajunGrl) : 9/27/2009 7:26:30 PM (GMT-6)


Korissa
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Date Joined Oct 2006
Total Posts : 343
   Posted 9/27/2009 2:04 PM (GMT -6)   
Is it that only trepanoma denticola shows up as band 41 with no other bands on western blots? ie.) If a person had that bacteria in their mouth and had an Igenex test, would band 41 plus some others show up giving a false positive for lyme disease?

Dowa
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Date Joined Sep 2008
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   Posted 9/27/2009 5:24 PM (GMT -6)   
CG: I am getting a message that the link is broken, are you able to open it with no problem? thanks  D

CajunGrl
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Date Joined Mar 2009
Total Posts : 4717
   Posted 9/27/2009 7:31 PM (GMT -6)   
Korissa,

No, I don't think it would give a false positive. Some bands are very specific to Lyme Disease and if your body is not making antibodies against the Lyme bacteria, then I don't think Lyme specific bands would show up.

I think that sometimes people do just have band 41 and still have Lyme Disease. They just haven't built up enough antibodies in their blood to be detected on the Western Blot. That's why LLMD's take symptoms into consideration too.
**You never know how STRONG you are....until being STRONG is the ONLY choice you have**

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CajunGrl
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Date Joined Mar 2009
Total Posts : 4717
   Posted 9/27/2009 7:32 PM (GMT -6)   
Dowa,

I think I fixed it. Try it out and let me know.
**You never know how STRONG you are....until being STRONG is the ONLY choice you have**

Co-Moderator Lyme Disease Forum


+Lyme
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Date Joined Apr 2009
Total Posts : 1304
   Posted 9/27/2009 8:17 PM (GMT -6)   
My understanding is that a 41+ indicates an infection w/ a spirochete. The spirochetes may be Lyme, dental disease, or syphillis. I have not yet found another infection/disease that will cause a positive 41. It is possible that there are some that we don't know about.

It seems that it should not be very difficult to diagnose or rule out the other infections. If that is possible, (ruling out the other diseases) then the 41 would indicate Lyme.

Positive band 41 does appear to be esp significant,if it is accompanied by even one single positive lyme species specific band.

My understanding from what I have read regarding the significance of band 41 in Lyme:

41 is often the first significant band to show when one has been infected w/ Lyme, as well as the others listed above. So this band (41) does not necessarily indicate Lyme, altho it does indicate a spirochetal infection. If this infection happens to be Lyme, and after enough time has passed, other lyme specific bands should then be appearing (on the WB) which should lend serious evidence that your infection is Lyme.

It is also very possible, from both my experiences on this forum, as well as my reading material on this, that I can state that Band 41 is very significant, even when it does not appear to indicate Lyme.

I apologize -- I am experiencing a true cognitive, neuro lyme day today. I'm having difficulty telling you what I'm trying to say....

If you only have a positive band 41, then you and your Dr need to do some serious research. But if you have a positive band 41, along w/ any positive species specific band (s), then your positive 41is aiding you and your Dr w/ a diagnosis of Lyme.

Again, sorry, if I'm not making sense, accept my apologies and delete my posts! And I will take no offense because I had to struggle while writing this
Bit 1972: Acute and chronic tonsillitis, UTI, miscarraige, appendicitis, hypoglycemia,  chronic neck pain w/ crushed vertibrae, chronic severe back pain, mitral valve prolapse, depression, resolution?
Bit Mother's Day 2007: Lyme, Babesia microti, hypothyroidism, EBV, HHV6, Parvovirus B19, low adrenals &misc other hormones, depression, anxiety, more of the above.
What don't these nasty bugs cause? 
CD57= 60, so we're in pretty good shape.
 


CajunGrl
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Date Joined Mar 2009
Total Posts : 4717
   Posted 9/27/2009 8:21 PM (GMT -6)   
Lyme,

You did a great job explaining! Thanks for posting because I'm having trouble with fogginess right now from this die off of yeast. I felt like I knew what I wanted to say but couldn't type.
**You never know how STRONG you are....until being STRONG is the ONLY choice you have**

Co-Moderator Lyme Disease Forum


defygravity
New Member


Date Joined Feb 2012
Total Posts : 10
   Posted 2/26/2012 1:32 PM (GMT -6)   
Hi,

I am brand new to the forum and have lots of questions and concerns that I hope somebody can address.

My history is very complicated.

When i was a teenager, I used to whip my head up and back to dry my very long hair to give it body and over the yrs it caused major whiplash in my neck. I suffered from soft tissue damage, loss of curve, arthritis, bulging discs and pinched nerves. it was not until a chiroprator cracked my neck bak in 1982 and that's when all my problems started. I never had any symptoms until my neck was cracked. I couldn't work, be a normal mother to my three kids, do the things that normal mothers did because of my neck.
it has gotten much, much worse over the years where I can't drive or do anything. I am not in pain per se, but have terrible muscle aches and tightness in my neck, shoulders, scapulas, back and hips causing sciatica now. Well, enough of the neck. Fast forward to 2004....I had a very bad cold and took Zithromax for bronchitis and used Zicam (not the spray) to try to lessen the cold. I realized after the cold was gone that I coudn't smell or taste, I freaked out. I went into a severe depression with anxiety so bad, I was a basketcase. My parents tried to help me (they live in florida and I live in NY) they told me to come down and they would try to help. after a month there, they gave up and couldnt take me anymore, so they took me to their doctor who without knowing me put me on Xanax and that was the start of my downfall. I got addicted to it and came back home to NY with a refill that was not good in NY. I tried to find a doctor who would give me more but I couldn't. I ended up in the ER in withdrawal. they gave me enough Xanax until I could find a shrink to ive me more. I didn't want to be on it but knew you just can't stop or you could die or have seizures. as a nurse this freaked me out even more. I found a benzo support group who taught me how to safely get off of xanax using valium. i found a doctor who would help me but had to stop seeing him due to finanaces (he didn't take insurance) and then found a shrink who worked with me to get off who I could afford with insurance. it took over 18 months and a horrendous and painful w/d to do it but in december 2006, I took my last dose and was finally free of it....but that is not the end of the story of suffering.......from all the suffering mentally and physically I put myself through, my immune system was compromised and I noticed my leg and foot swelling a lot all the time. I noticed a small lump in my groin and after going to numerous doctors including my uncle and dismissing it from nothing to a lypoma, I found out through a MRI I had Non Hodgkin's lymphoma and I had a major clot in my femoral vein which was cutting off my circulation and was making my leg swell. I had to start on coumadin and heparin and immediately had to start chemo for 6 months. I lost all my hair all over and was so sick from the chemo and high doses of prednisone they gave me too. eventually my smell came back but it was not easy to deal with all that was on my plate. again, my story doesn't end here. all the while, my neck and muscles got worse and worse and i thought i had fibro, which I think i do. I am also and at that time as well, was going through menopause and this too gave me some crazy symptoms. I know menopause can cause smelling and nasal issues, anxiety, and muscle pains and aches, hot flushes, cold flushes, affect the thyroid and adrenals. from all the stress, I developed adrenal fatigue with high and low cortisol and a high TSH with low Free T's, low sodium and other blood tests that were less than optimal. I was never aware of such things as adrenal fatigue. I have been too sick to go back to my oncologist and have a new PET scan and honestly, dont want to know about cancer or deal with it because I am in no shape to do so. besides I told myself I will not go through chemo again, the cancer will have to kill me and right now, death seems so appealling, all the suffering would be over. I joined many support groups and have learned so much but learned i might have LYME too. My Elisa test came back negative but I knew that this test was worthless. I insisted on my DO to order tests from Igenex and when they came back last month I went into a depression, scared and beside myself. There were bands!! I do have high antibodies for EBV, parvo, mycoplasma pneumonaie, cyto and have all the symptoms of CFS too. my IgG AB's were the high ones but the IgM were normal. I don't understand the difference really. they never taught this to us in nursing school.
I was okay 2 yrs ago, just having my neck issues to deal with, making me dizzy, lightheaded, having swelling of the eyes and feeling cold all the time. I found out that thyroid can cause these problems along with depression and many others. I want to know about the bands and if I have lyme disease and would appreciate it if someone could help me decifer the results. Igenex/CDC said i was negative and my PCR was negative too. I never had the CD-57 test. my doctor is ordering it. I have a positive 41 band on both IgG and IgM and on band 31 and 39 it is indeterminate and a positive band on 66. no other bands found. What does this all mean? I am not deathly ill, not bedbound and don't have the classic lyme symptoms. I don't have joint pain, fevers, swollen glands, knee pain, Palsy in face, heel pain, etc. what I do have is the muscle aches and pains, tight neck mostly. I was told that EBV/CFS and fibro can give you the same symptoms but can they appear with bands on the Igenex test? is there something else that can cause bands? I am scared to death. I made an appt with a lyme doctor down in NJ (Dr. Streit) but honestly we are broke and I can't afford these astronomical fees these doctors charge. I called Dr. H in NY and he is charging over 900.00 for the first visit and a deposit of 475.00 just to hold a spot. I haven't called Dr. C in Mt. Kisco yet.
Alot of my symptoms are associated with the other conditions I have, so I am not sure of what is going on.
am I in denial? should I worry? I am allergic to most AB's and already have candida. I dont fare well on AB and hate their side effects.
now, to add insult to injury, my precious, supportive son, my best friend (have lost all my friends over the years and am isolated in the boonies) is leaving to go into the navy this Wednesday and i haven't stopped crying making me even more tensed up and anxious/depressed. he was the one who took me out and took me to the doctors, was there to talk to and gave me comfort just knowing someone was around, especially because I can't smell and fear something going wrong in the house and i won't know it.
Now all I will have is a drunken husband who is in denial himself, is not there for me and tells me I am fine. he goes to work all day and leaves me here alone, sees people and has something to do all day to pass the time away. I don't have anything and all I will dwell on is the isolation, the fear and the unknowns. Can anyone help me???? PLEASE!!!!

momofmtc
New Member


Date Joined Mar 2012
Total Posts : 1
   Posted 3/14/2012 9:59 PM (GMT -6)   
Hi! I AM NEW TO all this and I keep testing pos for band 41 since 2009 when symptoms first started. I was told I did have lymes and that I did not have lymes by diff drs and took antibiotics for 2wks..eventually got much better, but had similar symptoms as you with neck pain off and on, migraines, extreme sensitivity to light was this past summer and severe dizziness/imbalance. I couldn't leave my house for 2 mos or take care of my kids or drive b/c of the dizziness..long story short I finally got better with dizziness. But then I had some pain and went to new dr. and she finally tested me for lyme and came up pos again for band 41 and some others. Again, Lyme literate dr said I have lyme and Bartonella and id specialist said no lyme and never even tested me for anything. I'm currently seeing Dr. E in Flemington, and was told Dr. S. is wonderful. Have you found any solutions to your probs? If not I would def go to Dr. S. Pls post back to me. Thx!! momofmtc

Post Edited By Moderator (achievinggrace) : 3/15/2012 4:57:49 AM (GMT-6)


achievinggrace
Forum Moderator


Date Joined Nov 2009
Total Posts : 3266
   Posted 3/15/2012 5:02 AM (GMT -6)   
Hi momofmtc,

Welcome to the forum!

It is such a shame you have had such a difficult time getting a sure diagnosis and thorough and effective treatment. Unfortunately, your story is all too typical with Lyme disease patients.

Sorry, I had to remove the doctors' names from your post. We cannot mention doctors in the open forum, but we can discuss them off line by email.

I can highly recommend Dr S. He has gotten me well twice (re-infection, not relapse). If you would like more info, do e-mail me -- just click on the envelope under my name.

If you haven't already, take a look at our "New to Lyme?" thread. It has a great deal of useful info and helpful resources.

Again, welcome, I look forward to hearing from you.
Co-Moderator Lyme Disease Forum

defygravity
New Member


Date Joined Feb 2012
Total Posts : 10
   Posted 4/2/2012 11:06 AM (GMT -6)   
Hi momofmtc,


would you be so kind to tell me what other bands tested positive on your WB test? I went to an ID doctor and was told by her and my uncle who is a doctor that I don't have lyme. I had band 41++, band 66 and an indeterminate on band 39. I was tested for Erhlichia and ANA and both were negative, no testing for babesia or bartonella. CD-57 was within normal ranges. I don't feel lyme sick but doing whatever I can to get better which is not working. I am on a thyroid med, taking adaptogens for cortisol, using LDN for my fibro and to prevent my cancer from coming back.
I don't necessarily have neck pain, its more muscular and very tight not the back so much but rigid muscles all around the neck, shoulders, scapulas, flanks and hips.

when researching band 41, there are so many different opinions on what the significance is and reading from lyme specialists that it is the first to show up in lyme but its not specific to lyme. neither is band 66.

I don't feel lyme sick and don't have the severe fatigue, swollen glands, fevers, headaches or swollen joints. I am contributing my tight and painful muscles to my neck injury and stress from ill health for so long and being stuck in this house with no life, unable to drive, work and living in a very unhappy marriage.

what AB did you use? are you on treatment now? how are you feeling? are you herxing? I was on 10 days of Azithromycin and didn't feel better or worse.

if you can, I would love to hear back from you....

Take care and be well,

Nanci

my2cuties
Regular Member


Date Joined Mar 2012
Total Posts : 30
   Posted 4/4/2012 12:43 AM (GMT -6)   
Hey. Sorry about you health and your family. I was right there at a point. Going crazy that I was soooo sick. Hubby drank and worked as well. Since we found mold in my apartment we moved and things have been slightly better. Can I recommend a few things? I am only because this is what helps me. Talk to you doc before anything though. I am having huge fungal problems as well. I drink lots of water with something called pau d' arco. Ive looked it up and saw that it helps not only with fungus but with cancer as well. I try to get plenty of day light (not too much tho) vitamin c (mostly by eating oranges or peaches) also drinking it as a powder mixed with msm. às for candidas I heard sugar is a no no. Just stay away from the stuff even if you crave, stop eating it, it is your enemy. Keep warm because lymes loves the cold. Get rest but excersize. Just live normaly. I hope your stress and worries calm down a little. I know its very hard in the beginning. Oh and please find yourself an llmd. Im on welfare right now on temporary disability until im not as sick as i am. For me, lymes is talking a long slow time to go away. It is so tireing to wake up in my swollen feet everyday just to wonder how sick I am going to be. But after a long 8 months on different anti-biotics its gotten me to the point where I am able to somwhat live again, and oh, write this letter! And when you said wanting the pain to end believe me I know the feeling, BUT! That feeling has been dying away right along with those spirochetes. I know your feeling down now but time, with the right doctor, medication, natural remedies, right lifestyle, doing whatever you can will make you feel better. Please have faith in that! And don't give up. Good luck from PA.
P.S. If you want to know of other natural remedies ive been trying let me know.
<3<3<3<3<3<3<3 Victim of lymes disease, hep c and endometreosis. They say what doesnt kill you makes you stronger. I still have hopes and dreams for a brighter day and a better future! <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3

Winnigirl
New Member


Date Joined Apr 2012
Total Posts : 1
   Posted 4/4/2012 5:24 PM (GMT -6)   
Hi,
 
I am amazed at all i read here....The information is wonderful.
 
This is my first post and wanted to say, that i am only getting a positive on band 41 through igenix and lab corp. No co-infections.
 
I tested positive for Protomyxzoa Rhumetica through my LLMD and he feels this is causing band 41 to be positive.
 
Just a thought. Maybe this would be something to look into. If you google it there is some information out there, it is limited but more and more people are starting to get this diagnosis.
 
Hope that helps.
 
Winni
 
 
 
 
 
 
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