Particular Mercury Chelation protocol has really helped me

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MyTwoSons
New Member


Date Joined Mar 2011
Total Posts : 17
   Posted 4/2/2011 12:33 PM (GMT -6)   
I'm a newbie here, but in the off chance that this may be new news to anyone, I've learned that many people who have Lyme also have a mercury poisoning issue. After researching the issue, my husband and I have come to have the most confidence in Andrew Cutler's assessment of the issue and his "frequent-dose chelation" protocol for eliminating mercury.

Last spring I was at my wits' end having come to what I thought was a dead end in Lyme treatment. I started Cutler's protocol in the summer (had already had my amalgam fillings removed a few years prior) and within a few weeks I was really making significant progress getting over the wall I had seemed to hit. I've found mercury chelation to be an absolutely *huge* contributor to my progress with Lyme. In fact, some symptoms that I had thought were Lyme symptoms have been directly addressed with the chelation and are probably more mercury-toxicity related.

A caution, though, if you read Andrew Cutler's book (Amalgam Illness) available on Amazon.com, you see that he feels the typical IV chelation protocols, as well as many of the over-the-counter chelation aids that contain chlorella, etc. are actually dangerous and can cause regression. Anyway, maybe this is old news, but you all have already been such a hep to me I thought I'd toss out something from my corner that might be a help to you. :)

By the way, there's a Yahoo group specifically for people using Cutler's protocol. It's the "Frequent Dose Chelation" group. A good number of people who post to that group have Lyme.

I hope this helps someone.

bablymers
Veteran Member


Date Joined Oct 2006
Total Posts : 1458
   Posted 4/2/2011 7:58 PM (GMT -6)   
Thank you for your input.  I have the book and will try to find the time to read it!
Best wishes,  bablymers mom

MyTwoSons
New Member


Date Joined Mar 2011
Total Posts : 17
   Posted 4/14/2011 8:44 AM (GMT -6)   
In response to Lymester, your angle about Cutler's mercury chelation protocol is welcome, and it's good to consider all points of view. I imagine chasing mercury poisoning would be going down just another rabbit trail for many. For me, I chased the Lyme rabbit for a long time, keeping the possible mercury issue on the shelf. When I finally reached what seemed to be the end of my rope, I embarked on Cutler's protocol and had the biggest improvement I've *ever* had with my health, and many of what had seemed to me to be Lyme symptoms were dealt a solid blow. So, I'm hitting my issues from both angles now -- with Lyme treatment and with mercury chelation.

One of the biggest points I have to make is that *if* you do feel you have a mercury poisoning issue, I recommend that you consider what Cutler has to say about avoiding the typical IV chelation treatments, as he feels they are dangerous. His arguments are convincing, as are testimonies from many who have done IV chelation treatments. He pointedly says that *any* chelation protocol -- including his -- is dangerous, because it's just flat risky to mobilize mercury in the body by any method, but the protocol he's developed attempts to do it in the safest, most low-risk way possible.

I can testify that, even with the huge help it's been to me, his chelation protocol is something that I have to handle very carefully as it does cause flares of symptoms as I'm going through/coming off of chelation rounds. He not only acknowledges that will happen but "preaches" on how careful one needs to be and outlines all the various ways to be careful about it and to minimize symptoms. With the very low doses of oral chelators I'm using on his protocol and the chaos that flares intermittently as I'm working through it, I can't imagine using the comparatively high doses of chelators that are used with IV chelation.

As far as the absence of any type of herx-type evidence, that has not been my story. I have flares of chaos with his protocol, yet those are typically followed at some point by swooshes of feeling *really well* that seem to be flashbacks to how I felt in my youth before slowly getting dragged down by all of my ills. ...a sense of wellness and progress that I had heretofore not attained with Lyme treatment alone. My progress has not been linear but rather chaotic and up and down, but there have been such unmistakable signs that his protocol is helping me greatly -- in pretty much the chaotic though predictable way that he says it will -- that I can't help but think that he's on the mark on a lot of things.

Anyway, I don't have a vested interest one way or another in anyone's trying his protocol. I would recommend (as Cutler does) that anyone trying mercury chelation via his or any protocol, go into it carefully and with eyes wide open. I just offer my experience with it in case it might be just the piece of the puzzle that someone else here is needing to find.

bucci
Veteran Member


Date Joined May 2006
Total Posts : 1489
   Posted 4/14/2011 6:40 PM (GMT -6)   
Friends,

don't forget a big reason why lyme peeps suffer from mercury poisoning more than others is because of THICK BLOOD. ask for ISAC panel to show where your blood really is at. Don't let doctor blow you off on this test.

Merury will accumuliate al over again because it is in everything not just our fillings.

MyTwoSons
New Member


Date Joined Mar 2011
Total Posts : 17
   Posted 4/15/2011 1:42 PM (GMT -6)   
The ISAC panel -- is that a hypercoagulation panel? I don't know if I had that particular panel done, but I did have a Hemex hypercoagulation panel done, and my doc says it's positive on two counts. He has recently started me on heparin shots.

I'm curious to understand why/how thick blood relates to difficulty with mercury poisoning. Maybe it should be obvious, but if you have a nitty-gritty, technical explanation of what goes on I'd appreciate it.

Thanks

ocean63
New Member


Date Joined Aug 2011
Total Posts : 2
   Posted 8/7/2011 5:04 PM (GMT -6)   
Hi,

I recently learned I was mercury toxic, and have developed environmental sensitivities as a result. While trying to unwind this (plan to have amalgams removed start cutler protocol etc) I was bit by a deer tick and had an explosion of symptoms that brought me as close to death as I have ever been.

In reading your post, I am wondering how you specifically are combinining Lyme treatment with mercury detox? DO you alternate with cutler protocol? Overlap? what specifically are you doing with the Lyme for treatment that has worked well alongside the mercury detox.

I am currently on doxycycline - so in 30 days they will declare me "cured" - but I am afraid of aftershocks and what comes next .

Any help apprecitated.

ocean63
New Member


Date Joined Aug 2011
Total Posts : 2
   Posted 8/7/2011 9:52 PM (GMT -6)   
I am unclear if you are responding to my post or not.

I am curious to hear from anyone who is treating Lyme and Mercury simultaneously or alternately and what has been helpful/not helpful to them.

The symptoms are so similar that it is confusing to know what might be happening.

Lyme14
Regular Member


Date Joined Jun 2011
Total Posts : 381
   Posted 8/7/2011 11:29 PM (GMT -6)   
 
I'm not familiar with the Cutler protocol, but I can tell you that there is substantial proof that that mercury is quite toxic.  Anyone who wants the nitty-gritty details can email me, as I have information from health practitioners that have presented on mercury at the health expo and an autism conference. 
 
The first cases of Autism arose in families where one or both parents had a job that involved mercury.  When the high copper amalgam was introduced in 1976, the number of cases of MS and ALS increased significantly.  When the Hepatitis B vaccine was introduced in the 1990s, MS, ALS, and Autism increased significantly. 
 
People have varying ability to handle/detox from mercury on their own.  This is determined by genetics.  Apo-E2 has great detox ability, Apo-E3 has moderate ability, and Apo-E4 has no ability.  You can get a genetic test for this, and I would advise getting a baby tested before deciding to vaccinate.  All vaccines contain mercury--even the mercury free ones.  (They contain ethyl-mercury). 
 
Urine is not the only test for mercury.  There are blood tests (not reliable), hair test (more reliable) and a hand scan (most reliable, but not as common).  I had high mercury on the hair test, but tested negative on the blood test.
 
I had already had my amalgams replaced, and did a series of clay baths that were specific to mercury detox.  I felt substantial improvement in energy and mental clarity after completing these baths.  My plantar fasciitis pain nearly disappeared, and I felt substantially better afterward.  These clay baths are a strong detox.  You have to do them with plastic composite fillings, as they will eat away at the ceramic ones.  You cannot do them with amalgams in your mouth.  While doing the clay baths, I supplemented with a metal detox supplement and mercury homeopathic pellets.
 
One thing I learned at the Autism conference was that detoxing too fast from metals can throw sensitive individuals into seizures.  That's why it's best to start slowly with detox, and if you don't feel improvement, then work up to stronger things. 
 
A well-known nutritionist told me that he does not believe it's good to detox from metals while treating Lyme.  He believes Lyme/infections/candida should be treated first, then go after the metals, then go after further hormone imbalances.  I don't know all the reasons why he believes this.  He's Jenny McCarthy's family nutritionist.
 
Mercury is highly neurotoxic and is also involved in Alzheimer's (in addition to aluminum).
 
Now I continue to avoid fish that are high in mercury, and take seaweed/chlorella supplements to act as a preventive.  My liver, kidneys, and glutathione pathway are not up to par, so I'm still working on supporting them with raw vegetable juice and aronia berries.
 
I'm a music teacher, and not a doctor. Anything I post is based on my own experience and lay opinion.
Lyme, Babesiosis, Mycoplasma (Asthma), Fibromyalgia (Soft Tissue Injury), Costochondritis,
CFS (Mitochondrial Dysfunction), IBS (Candida & Leaky Gut), Hashimoto's Thyroiditis, Adrenal Fatigue,
ITP (Low Platelets), TMJ, Plantar Fasciitis, Schamberg Purpura, Tinnitis, Allergies, MCS

Traveler
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Date Joined May 2007
Total Posts : 13816
   Posted 8/8/2011 11:44 AM (GMT -6)   
HI Ocean63!
Welcome to our forum! I am so sorry that you have a need to be here, but i am glad you found us!!!

If you haven't already, it would be beneficial for you to start with reading through the thread at the top of the forum titled,"New to Lyme?...Start here!!", as it is packed full of relevant information and informative links that have been put together by our members here! We also have a pretty good search function on this forum to help you narrow down your search for information from past posts. We must be our own health advocates now and the best thing to arm yourself with is knowledge!

If you are concerned about being labeled as "cured" after only 30 days of Doxy, I'd assume you are seeing an Infectious Disease Doc. Believe it or not, they are not the specialists with this set of infections! Weird, I know!

You need to be seen by a specialist in order to get the healing you deserve. The specialists in this field are known as LLMD's - Lyme Literate Medical Doctors. They don't know it all - which is why we must be our own health advocates - but they are at least up on the scientific data about these infections!

For information on finding a Lyme Literate Medical Doctor(LLMD) in your area, please email our long time member, Dan's Mother at:phassan@optonline.net

You can email Stephanie at: stephanie@turnthecorner.org You can also go to: www.turnthecorner.org/bod.htm if you want to learn a little bit more about Lyme Disease.

You can also go to The Lyme Disease Association and search for LLMD's 3 times in a month. You have to register first. Here is the link:www.lymediseaseassociation.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=277&Itemid=74

You will want to find an ILADS (International Lyme And Associated Diseases Society) doctor. The ILADS site is another great place to read to get you started on your Lyme journey. www.ilads.org/lyme_disease/treatment_guidelines_clearing_ilads.html

Again, Welcome to our forum!!! We look forward to getting to know you better through your posts! smilewinkgrin
Co-Moderator, Lyme Disease ;)

Treating with Acupuncture, Traditional & Modern Chinese Medicine & Western Herbs.

"Absence of proof is not proof of absence" - Dr. Edwin Masters, great LLMD & researcher -RIP

I break up my post because my eyes have been effected by TBI's as well, which makes long paragraphs very hard to read.

MyTwoSons
New Member


Date Joined Mar 2011
Total Posts : 17
   Posted 8/18/2011 3:41 PM (GMT -6)   
Hi, Ocean63,

I'm sorry I'm just now responding to your post. I've not been active on watching this board recently (I come and go as life allows), but I just got a notification of your post today. Anyway, I could go on for hours in answer to your questions, but I'll try to boil things down to some bullet-points:

* Your story sounds a lot like mine. We think I've had mercury poisoning since my youth and, as a result, suffered a gradual downhill trend in my health over the years. Then, several years ago "all hell broke loose" after I was bitten by a tick. I went for a couple of years, though, in a really, really bad way before discovering either the mercury poisoning or the Lyme Disease.

*Just from my husband's and my own research -- and my own experience -- I think you're taking the best course for treating mercury by taking the Cutler protocol route. The experience I've had with using his protocol has really lined up with what he has said to expect. As far as treating Lyme disease goes, someone else may have shared this already, but if your doc is planning on cutting you off of antibiotics after 30 days it sounds like you just need to get a new doc. He/she may make you feel silly and uneducated for thinking that you -- or other docs -- might know better than he (she) but that's just all the more reason to move on to someone else, and once you find a doc who's truly Lyme literate all of that struggle will be a thing of the past. If you're willing to travel (and don't happen to live where this doc lives) I can give you a good recommendation for a great Lyme doc.

*As far as how I treat Lyme along with doing the Cutler protocol, I do them simultaneously. I remember reading somewhere advice to do one before the other...I think it was the advice to "treat any infections and get antibiotic treatment done before starting the protocol"...but I just flat had to proceed anyway. As I imagine you're aware of, Lyme isn't something that can be treated with a round or two of antibiotics and then you move on. Neither is mercury poisoning something that can be remedied quickly. My issues were so bad that I felt like I was in a frying pan and just had to *get out* regardless, so I've been tackling the two issues in tandem.

*I will say that when I first learned I was mercury poisoned a few years ago I had my amalgams removed and then did some of the first few, lightweight rounds of the Cutler protocol (just DMSA, no ALA) and felt a little bit of effect but not much. Then I found out I had Lyme disease and started antibiotics, and they had such a profound effect that I focused on that almost exclusively for a couple of years. Then, finally, I found that I was going downhill and downhill, and antibiotics seemed to cease being helpful. I was really pretty scared, as I was feeling I might be reaching the end of my rope. That's when I got back into the Cutler protocol and dug in with it and got into using DMSA and ALA. Within just a few rounds my issues were majorly improved, and I felt I had a new lease on life. That was right about a year ago, and I've had the best year I have had in quite a while as I've been tackling both issues in tandem.

*It has not been without its ups and downs and confusing times, though. There are seasons when I seem to get in a groove and can predict how things are going to go; then I'll hit a place where certain things start happening and I can't make sense of them. Thankfully (and I really have to thank my God, Yahweh, here for His grace and help) at each of those places I've eventually somehow obtained the insight to figure out what was off or needed to happen, and then I've found myself back up in the saddle again. Sometimes it may be that my antibiotic had run its course and I needed to change. Sometimes it's that any number of a few "classic" issues with me needed to be addressed -- like having become too acidic due to so much antibiotic use and such and needing to take my Alka-Seltzer Gold. Sometimes it's gotten to be past due for me to up my level of chelators (the ALA and DMSA) for mercury poisoning. That last scenario happens a good bit of the time. It has actually happened recently, and I have once again been amazed at all of the symptoms that I had thought were due to Lyme that have been brought under control.

*I will say, though, that this has been a path of learning to work with chaos. My progress has sometimes been linear but more often has been herky-jerky. ...but it's been progress! Sometimes I'll have seasons of doing quite well and then all of a sudden I'll hit a wall. ...but just to have seasons of doing quite well has been such a blessing! And, even after just one year of chelating it seems I can say that now when I hit a wall and have a low time, as unpleasant as it is, it's in a different, better category than what I used to experience.

*A *great* resource for people following the Cutler protocol is a Yahoo group called Frequent Dose Chelation. It's specifically and only for people using that protocol. I've gotten lots of good, supportive, insightful advice from people on that group.

*Also, an absolutely awesome, well-organized collection of posts about mercury chelation, you can check out this link:
http://home.earthlink.net/~moriam/
This information, I understand, was compiled by someone who is into Cutler's protocol. There is a very large (and again, well-organized) section of posts from Andy Cutler there. I've found that to be an easy-to-navigate way to get quick answers to a lot of my nitty-gritty questions.

Also, if you've read Cutler's book and are planning to begin chelating but have a hard time getting everything organized in your head about how to start and how to proceed I have a good little summary that one of the "main people" on the Frequent Dose Chelation group sent us when I was starting out. It's pretty lengthy, so I'm not sure if I should post it here, but feel free to email me directly, and I can send it to you.

To close I'd like to end with a word of encouragement. If you're where I was at one point, you're likely at a chaotic, scary spot, and it can seem like everywhere you turn and everything you try results in little-to-no improvement or even to downturns. If that's the case I'd just like to say, for whatever it's worth, that I was in that place and felt that I was likely doomed to a life of misery, that I would always be allergic to everything I ate, always feel gloomy, and never again experience a sense of peace. But now I'm in a different place where the good days are actually, usually, outnumbering the bad ones, I'm eating most anything I want except gluten, and have regained a sense of peace. There are times when I "fall off the cliff" and have a downturn that will make me feel scared again, but time after time I've seen it resolve into better and better days, so now when that happens I've become accustomed to just hanging on and waiting for things to get worked out.

I hope this has helped. Best wishes to you!

MyTwoSons

MyTwoSons
New Member


Date Joined Mar 2011
Total Posts : 17
   Posted 8/19/2011 8:24 AM (GMT -6)   
I'm responding to Lymester's message -- you bring up some really good, classic points about things. I, too, I share my experience with all manner of disclaimer, as I am not a health professional, either, just a fellow sojourner in the land of need. Also, in case there's any question, I don't have any connection with anything that would give me motivation to promote Cutler's protocol or to promote mercury chelation in general, other than the fact that it seems to have really helped me, and I'd love to see it help someone else.

Regarding your comment below:...

If you are mercury poisoned then it only makes sense to deal with it in the appropriate way. The problem is determining this. You obviously don't want to treat illness you may not have. From what I have read there really is no valid test for chronic mercury poisoning from amalgams, so the only thing you can do is attempt the detox and hope for the best, which is a little scary to say the least.

...I say this all in good spirit, so please don't misread any negative vibes in this as there are none, but it may be worth my pointing out that those statements sound just like what we all hear from people about whether or not we should be getting treated for Lyme when "there really is no valid test for measuring it after 30 days of antibiotic treatment" and "it's really questionable to go messing around further with scary antibiotics and such when the doctors who know disease don't even see that you have any such disease." If we were all going to stick with the party line on that, then we'd all just be doing what infectious disease specialists tell us to do (i.e., just living with the misery after 30 days of treatment) and this forum wouldn't likely even exist.

I think most of us have become disillusioned with "the doctors who know" and have been forced by necessity to consider other angles that make sense to us. That's been the case with me and my husband. We've read up on things and, as best as our fallible brains can discern, Cutler seems to know the mercury detox angle better than anyone. His angles on why most testing isn't valid and why it's best to use his specialized counting procedure algorithms to determine the likelihood of toxicity make sense. His reasoning for why it's too dangerous to do the provoked urine testing that most docs do to determine mercury load make sense as well. Does that mean we're guaranteed a positive outcome if we follow his protocols? No, It just means that we've decided to take advice from someone we have reason to feel knows more than "the doctors who know." That, to me, seems no different than what most of us are doing by seeing Lyme docs that are poo-pooed by party-line disease docs.

I say all of this not to try to convince anyone to look into using Cutler's protocol but just to shed perspective on why I feel that anyone who decides to do so -- despite the risks and uncertainties -- is not out of line with the type of approach that most of us are taking already.

I always feel a bit funny sharing something that may be a bit of a "counter" to someone else's post, so once again please know that I share this in a spirit of warm-hearted discussion.

Traveler
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Date Joined May 2007
Total Posts : 13816
   Posted 8/19/2011 8:41 AM (GMT -6)   
Well, Mytwosons, I believe you did a good job of explaining your viewpoint even though it is not the same as Lymester. I can actually see both sides of the "argument" (so to speak), and believe that both of you have presented the two sides well!

This is a good discussion! smilewinkgrin
Co-Moderator, Lyme Disease ;)

Treating with Acupuncture, Traditional & Modern Chinese Medicine & Western Herbs.

"Absence of proof is not proof of absence" - Dr. Edwin Masters, great LLMD & researcher -RIP

I break up my post because my eyes have been effected by TBI's as well, which makes long paragraphs very hard to read.

MyTwoSons
New Member


Date Joined Mar 2011
Total Posts : 17
   Posted 8/19/2011 1:18 PM (GMT -6)   
Thanks. I'm glad the helpful intent has come across in what I've shared. I also want to clarify that I'm not suggesting that mercury toxicity is an issue for everyone who has Lyme. It sounds like it's not for you, Lymester, as you likely would have had a negative reaction when your large amalgam was removed. From what I remember reading, you're probably what Cutler describes as a "fast excreter" -- which is a blessing. I, on the other hand, seem to be a "slow excreter," which is why I tend to react to the protocol very much in line with how he describes. Its that type of liver profile that makes a person much more prone to having an issue with mercury toxicity, and I'm glad to hear that you (Lymester) have evidently avoided that malady.

Sunnyman
Regular Member


Date Joined Aug 2011
Total Posts : 73
   Posted 8/20/2011 10:58 AM (GMT -6)   
 
Lymester,
A really good thing you didn't have work on your amalgams done, because it is better to leave them in place than to remove and replace them incorrectly. There are a few aspects to consider, according to Hal Huggins, leading authority on this matter. He had his licence to drill taken away from him because he had these rebellious ideas. Check his website for more info.

Dentists usually are unaware of the problems with mercury, because they either are uninformed or downright dishonest. (disinformed) Imagine the claims if they would admit they are poisoning you! And they are mainly concerned with the technical state of your teeth and not your physical well being.
Thats what the other doctors are for. In german the dentist is called a 'toothdocter, which says it all.

All this said, the ugly truth is that when you have mercury filling, there will be mercury poisoning, only the degree of it and the problems that go with it will be different from person to person. So there are a few paradoxes to enjoy with mercury. Its true that if you find lots of it in urine that is a good sign. If you find little that is a bad sign when fillings are in place.

Replacement must be in a certain order so the electrical currant actually helps your system to unload. The wrong way around symptoms can freeze. Its the experience of Huggins and a good reason why most dentist do not see improvement after amalgam removal. Along with other reasons.

Selenium comes into this picture because mercury actually depletes the selenium that is present in your body. It works on different levels where it binds directly to mercury to form a salt that can be excreted, contrary to mercury that keeps recycling in your body causing damage on many levels. Also there is the glutathionroute that fights free radicals caused by toxins, gluthation is depending upon selenium to be present, otherwise this route will fail and you get sick from it.

Now when mercury from your fillings has depleted the selenium in organs and tissue, your immunesystem cannot react properly to a nasty bacterium like borrelia, because selenium is necessary for the white bloodcells to perform their task of fighting everything that is unwanted. Selenium and seleniumdependent glutathion are fuel for the white bloodcells.

So mercury intoxication is the preparation for lyme disease, by depleting selenium and thus undermining the immunereaction.

Like ocean63 says: An explosion of symptom will come as you are basically defenseless when your mercuryintoxication is severe, or you have been living in a selenium poor area. Same for 'myTwoSons':all hell brooke loose with the tickbite

Interesting that Lyme 14 had high mercury on hair test but low on bloodtest, since amalgam had already been replaced. So far that fits with the fact that once replaced it is no longer in the blood, but the hair will still show as this shows a more long term picture.

So it is a complex picture and you have only one time in your life the opportunity to remove your fillings, better do it right or you might regret afterwards. Go check with the experts like Huggins.

Post Edited (Sunnyman) : 8/20/2011 10:01:51 AM (GMT-6)


Traveler
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Date Joined May 2007
Total Posts : 13816
   Posted 8/20/2011 5:09 PM (GMT -6)   
Admit it Lymester - LOL!! - you're a "Doubting Thomas" just like I am!!! Giggle!!! smilewinkgrin
Co-Moderator, Lyme Disease ;)

Treating with Acupuncture, Traditional & Modern Chinese Medicine & Western Herbs.

"Absence of proof is not proof of absence" - Dr. Edwin Masters, great LLMD & researcher -RIP

I break up my post because my eyes have been effected by TBI's as well, which makes long paragraphs very hard to read.

MyTwoSons
New Member


Date Joined Mar 2011
Total Posts : 17
   Posted 8/20/2011 10:37 PM (GMT -6)   
I've gleaned some good thoughts from all of these recent posts. Lymester, I don't blame you for feeling the way you do. Interestingly, my husband and I are skeptics in a lot of ways as well -- especially my husband -- whewwwwwwwee! But Culter's mercury chelation angle has been one of the few things that has made it past his meticulous cerebral screening device. Funny how different people tackling things equally scrupulously can end up arriving at different conclusions, but it just happens.

I don't have the bandwidth to respond to the various reasons you have for not trusting Cutler, and I don't gather that you're even seeking that, and fortunately it sounds like it's not even an issue for you anyway, so I'm content just to leave it all out there on the table for people to consider all of the various pros and cons and go from there, as I think this has been an excellent discussion, honest and informational from all sides.

I'll probably be bowing out of this particular thread from this point on, just because my plate is overflowing a bit right now...so, nothing personal if you don't see any responses from me after this.

Best wishes to all. :)

achievinggrace
Veteran Member


Date Joined Nov 2009
Total Posts : 2380
   Posted 8/21/2011 7:08 AM (GMT -6)   
Thanks for bringing up this subject, MyTwoSons -- very interesting discussion!

Hope to hear from you again soon.
Co-Moderator Lyme Disease Forum

Traveler
Forum Moderator


Date Joined May 2007
Total Posts : 13816
   Posted 8/21/2011 12:29 PM (GMT -6)   
Lymester, I was just trying to tease you a bit - I'm sorry as it seems it was ill received.
Co-Moderator, Lyme Disease ;)

Treating with Acupuncture, Traditional & Modern Chinese Medicine & Western Herbs.

"Absence of proof is not proof of absence" - Dr. Edwin Masters, great LLMD & researcher -RIP

I break up my post because my eyes have been effected by TBI's as well, which makes long paragraphs very hard to read.

Lyme14
Regular Member


Date Joined Jun 2011
Total Posts : 381
   Posted 8/21/2011 6:08 PM (GMT -6)   
I haven't read every detail of the posts here, as I have to keep my computer time brief, but I want to add a couple of things from my own experience.  Hal Huggins is given credibility because he picked up where Weston Price left off in terms of research on amalgams, mercury, and root canals.  Sometime after Price's death, all of his research in this area was boxed up and sent to Huggins after Huggins finished a presentation where someone in the audience determined that he was open enough to continuing Price's research. 
 
An aside--this research not only includes mercury, but also the bacteria and fungus present in cavitations and root canals that sit dormant until something triggers certain genes in the body to awaken (often cytokines), in turn expressing the bacteria in the form of cancers, MS, ALS, etc.
 
Secondly, the unreliability of the testing for mercury has much to do with the difference between methyl mercury and ethyl mercury.  Methyl mercury is much more willing to come up in tests than ethyl mercury.  Ethyl mercury (from what I understand) is neutral, and somehow that allows it to hide easier--not sure why.  "Mercury-free" vaccines still contain ethyl mercury.  However, if someone tests significantly high on other minerals, it can be a sign that the person has lots of ethyl mercury, even though the mercury is not registering on the test.
 
This is not too drastically different than testing for candida or Lyme, either.  Some people will test positive for candida via blood test, some via urine test, and some via stool test.  Some will have candida and not test positive on any of the above, and a trained nutritionist can read the test (much like the antibody tests for Lyme) and see if that person may still have candida despite the negative tests.
 
I'm a music teacher, and not a doctor. Anything I post is based on my own experience and lay opinion.
Lyme, Babesiosis, Mycoplasma (Asthma), Fibromyalgia (Soft Tissue Injury), Costochondritis,
CFS (Mitochondrial Dysfunction), IBS (Candida & Leaky Gut), Hashimoto's Thyroiditis, Adrenal Fatigue,
ITP (Low Platelets), TMJ, Plantar Fasciitis, Schamberg Purpura, Tinnitis, Allergies, MCS

Sunnyman
Regular Member


Date Joined Aug 2011
Total Posts : 73
   Posted 8/22/2011 6:36 AM (GMT -6)   
Hello Lymester, thanks for writing this much.
If the overpricing about the charcoal and jogger juice is true than you certainly have a point when you say that this is a bad sign. Not the first person to fall for greed, luxury and wealth. Wrong attitude.


But does that mean that his whole project is a fake. I don't think so.
Could the mercury aspect not at least be a contributing factor of why lyme can become so devastating with one person and cause no trouble for the other? Why would it have to be 'this or that' and not 'this and that'? Sure Lyme is a big thing and can make you really sick, but so is the mercury from amalgam. They both produce neurotoxins and burden the immune system.

It appears that you have studied the matter rather well, but focus on the weaker points so you can ignore the stronger. Of course it would be more comfortable to believe that this amalgam thing is overrated and not true.

I will not go into the discussion of whether having mercury fillings is weakening your immune system or not, because there has been so overwhelming evidence of this around the world causing various countries to simply ban amalgam already. It is not really a matter of debate any more.

As for Huggins, he does have a special position in this because he is dealing with the matter for so many years now already and he has been very active in this. He has added a few different aspect more than most anti amalgam dentists, but that is likely due to experience.

Have you read any of his books? I did read 'Its all in your head' and to my estimation its a very truthful report of experience. A double blind study is a difficult thing to realise with this, so you must accept empirical evidence and blood levels as well as anecdotal info.

There was this experiment though, where radioactive fillings were placed in sheep, just to see where the mercury would migrate towards. It was easy to see that the mercury concentrated in brain, liver and kidneys and was about everywhere else in minor quantities. Considering the overall consensus on the toxicity of mercury this is an important finding.

So there is enough proof and enough scientific material to back it up but there is no one so blind as the ones who choose not to see. Is there anyone taking the quack watch seriously?

Whether amalgam sets you up for Lyme depends on how bad the body becomes selenium deficient with all the mercury going around. But if there are no filling, selenium can still be low depending on geographic area.

As far as kids are concerned; when the mother has fillings during pregnancy, there will be lots of mercury given to the child, thus depleting selenium even without fillings. So, yes a child can be seriously weakened by mercury without having fillings of their own.
Imagine a child developing from a couple of cells to a real child, covering an enormous evolutionary span in just 9 month, all this time swimming in a mercury toxic sea. Still amazing to see that they usually turn out so well. In spite of the toxic sea.

about the order of removal, this is a complex matter. Amalgam fillings do have an electrical charge; high, low, pos. Neg. This has got to do with Biologically Closed Electric Circuits that are influenced by the migrating mercury through the tissue. Check out these words and you will find dr. Nordenström. Pubmed

Once you understand these BCEC it becomes not so difficult to understand that sequence could be important in order discharge a circuit.
Often these circuits can cause distant problems. When amalgam is removed without sequential order, improved health can result as no more new mercury vapour will be inhaled or swallowed, but with the BCEC still disturbing, the problem linked to this can improve less than desired. Huggins has proved this to be true empirically over and over again.

But it is so much easier to dismiss than to study this, so most 'experts' and professionals prefer to remain unaware of this.
And do not wait for a consensus of any kind on this subject, because the agenda's differ and interests too. It is only your own judgement on available information that is really important here.
(By the way this sequential removal is not very difficult to do, it just takes a measurement of the electrical readings and then follow the indicated sequence)

You only can become duped when you rush uninformed to have something done, because you take someone's word for it. The information is out there, its just a matter of evaluating what makes the most sense. And that only after a deeper consideration.

I agree with you that Lyme is a more clear problem, but it must be also easy for you to understand that it doesn't help the recovering when there is still mercury toxicity having an impact on your immune system.
But make sure that if you will decide to eliminate this factor from your plate, to become thoroughly informed about all the different aspect that come with the territory. Like have the replacement material checked for bio compatibility, so you wont get from the frying pan into the fire. This can be tested with serum. Like the LTT with Lyme.
Because the last thing you need with Lyme is an immune system that gets overreactive.

about the licence hearing of Huggins, it is important to understand what he has been up against for so many years. The arguments and proof of amalgam disease have always been pushed aside by the powers in place. Makes no sense to try again in court. The discussions go on. Forget the consensus.
There was no threat to have his career destroyed because he was already employing other dentists in his centre. But let me repeat that it surely is a good thing that you are cautious and suspicious, cause harm can also be done. The key is to get informed and then make a move.

I can see you have developed a lot of info on this issue already. If you are not yet clear about the right dentist with the right procedure, then it would probably best to leave the fillings in place and make sure they harm you as little as possible. Best would be to have your selenium level checked and if low, increase your intake of it, monitoring blood level regularly as selenium is your protection against free mercury.

The testing you write about can be valuable, but can also be influenced by the thoughts of the people involved. Here it is easy to do double blind testing, to find out if the testing is accurate. You can choose from a few vials of different things and then find out if the test show the same result over and over again.
It is not illogical though that you can test a vial of mercury, even if you have mercury fillings in place. The body has become adapted and used to the fillings in place, but will react if more gets added in the form of a mercury vial. So weakened response of the muscle indicates that adding more will burden the system. Probably everyone will react with rejecting mercury I suppose, so it is not much proof of anything.

Low levels of selenium will proof a little more as this will indicate little defence against mercury coming out of the fillings. Check in with the info Schrauzer has given on the subject.
Even when lead is more of an issue the way to deal with this is to optimize selenium levels as this is the protection against heavy metals in general. Could old plumbings have caused your led burden?

I understand it is a terrifying thing and it is therefore really important to be careful and become well informed before you have anything done on your fillings.

I am curious about what the result could be from the test on selenium for you. I would appreciate if you would tell once you would have the result.
Good health to you!

Lyme14
Regular Member


Date Joined Jun 2011
Total Posts : 381
   Posted 8/23/2011 6:36 PM (GMT -6)   
 
I'll weigh in on a couple of points:
 
Lymester said...
Sunnyman said...

Could the mercury aspect not at least be a contributing factor of why lyme can become so devastating with one person and cause no trouble for the other? Why would it have to be 'this or that' and not 'this and that'? Sure Lyme is a big thing and can make you really sick, but so is the mercury from amalgam. They both produce neurotoxins and burden the immune system.


Could be, but its impossible to say. There are likely people that got lyme with lots of fillings, and recovered quickly, and others that have none but are suffering. It would be nice if there was some research on this. 
 
As I posted (in an earlier thread), mercury affects people differently based on their genetic ability to detoxify from it.  How many Lyme patients have actually had a genetic test for mercury detox ability?  That's what someone should study.
 
Lymester said...
Sunnyman said...

As far as kids are concerned; when the mother has fillings during pregnancy, there will be lots of mercury given to the child, thus depleting selenium even without fillings. So, yes a child can be seriously weakened by mercury without having fillings of their own.


What are the common symptoms when this happens? I am unfamiliar.
 
Autism, ADHD, learning disabilities, developmental delays...I see this everyday in the classroom in increasing numbers over the years.  Half or more of last year's kindergarten class had documented medical problems.  Compare that to the upper elementary grade levels where fewer than a third of the students had documented medical problems.  The high copper amalgams were introduced in 1976, increasing the toxicity of the mercury in them significantly.  Mercury in the hepatitis B vaccine (introduced in the 1990s) is also being put into these children's bodies.  They're getting hit with mercury from too many sources now.
 
I'm a music teacher, and not a doctor. Anything I post is based on my own experience and lay opinion.
Lyme, Babesiosis, Mycoplasma (Asthma), Fibromyalgia (Soft Tissue Injury), Costochondritis,
CFS (Mitochondrial Dysfunction), IBS (Candida & Leaky Gut), Hashimoto's Thyroiditis, Adrenal Fatigue,
ITP (Low Platelets), TMJ, Plantar Fasciitis, Schamberg Purpura, Tinnitis, Allergies, MCS

Deejavu
Veteran Member


Date Joined Aug 2005
Total Posts : 3780
   Posted 8/24/2011 6:57 AM (GMT -6)   
Hi Lymester and others,
 
I did not google Cutler or Huggins simply because I have been aware for years about mercury and how it poisons a person.  And yes, there are hundreds of strains of bacteria, just do your research.   Mercury fillings are the worse and bacteria do love to live inside those fillings.
 
I believe Dr. Rau stated in one of his video's at the Marion Institute that antibiotics contain mercury as well...    So mercury is everywhere, in your teeth, in your antibiotics, in lots of foods (especially fish), in vaccines, etc.   Google the list of foods that contain mercury, you may be surprised.
 
Also, one of the reasons that I responded so well to alternative medicine was because I lost my upper teeth when I was 17 years old due to getting run over by a speeding car in my legs.  Then as I became older I lost several of my bottom teeth, thus very little mercury as soon those remaining teeth are going to be removed and I will be mercury-free as far as my teeth.  Good ole dentures for me!
 
Below are a couple of links:
 
 
 
 
I hope you take the time and read the above links.  There is no way in the world that I want mercury in my body but that's me.
 
Denise
It's all about the Immune System mixed with Daily Detoxing and a dose of Positive Thinking!

bucci
Veteran Member


Date Joined May 2006
Total Posts : 1489
   Posted 8/24/2011 8:09 PM (GMT -6)   
Hi, I'm responding to Mytwosons. .
Kind of late but... The mercury and thick blood was explained to me like this;

Everyone has mercury in their system. Fillings or no fillings. Mercury is every where. We all are filtering and processing all kinds of toxins. When you blood is normal you filter toxins out much easier. When blood is thick the toxins including mercury are doing much more harm all over including the brain.

This is why especially while in treatment our doctors have got to make sure
They have our thick blood under control.
Also with chronic long term Lyme peeps it better to detox the heavy metals and parasites before moving into the intensity of abx.

I did the EDTA IV metal detox. I thought I had ascended into heaven.
I never felt so clear in my head. I did it again after doing IV abx and even rife.
And it felt like crushed glass in my head and chest.

I was on heparin and only getting zethromycin 500 mg every other day. Only 3 day a week. But I wasn't doing enough heparin. I was trying to save money and
Was doing the shots but little less than I was told by doctor.
Once I put the dose to where it was prescribed all that horrible toxic pain calms down.
MyTwoSons, I am so glad you posted your experience and I hope others will push for that ISAC panel. He ex was bought out by lab Corp. Make sure it is done correctly. My doctor was having trouble with testing since Hemex sold.It is 6 tubes
20 yrs of doctors . DEC. 2009 tested positive for lyme, bartonella, ehrichiosis, HHPV6, chlamadyal pneumonia .
parasites :strongylides, diaoebia fragialis, hook worm.

Hep C ....fibro, rhumatoidal,depression,

yazzer
Veteran Member


Date Joined Jun 2011
Total Posts : 898
   Posted 8/25/2011 8:49 AM (GMT -6)   
Been following this thread with grreat interest. For me, there seems to be a direct correlation between mercury toxicity and ill effects. I have Lyme too (since May this time around but probably all my life sicne at least age 17 (51 now), so it's hard to differentiate what is causing what. That said, Before I finally got my Lyme test/positive diagnosis on June 10th of this year (never had a Lyme test prior). I began to recap events over the previous months.
 
Since the beginning of the year, I was over-stressed at work due to several major projects going on. Plus, being a runner, I had made some crazy idea in my head to try and run 2011 miles during the course of the year 2011 - so that stressed my physical body - a lot! Social life was amped-up due to meetings on which I am a Board member at a local university (so more alcohol than normal and less sleep, etc.). All these things were taxing my body and increasing my toxic load. Then, in March, I cracked a tooth in the back of my mouth, exposing a LARGE amalgam filling. Since it did not hurt and was not esily seen by others (and SINCE I DID NOT SUSPECT issues with fillings whatsoever), I decided to delay getting it fixed.
 
Over the course of March, April and May, I began to have slight symptoms of dizziness, head pressure, excess fatigue, etc. - not alarmingly so but more progressive as time went by. I attributed it to too much running (overtraining) and began to back off of the high mileage goal. I also had, during that time, extreme neck stiffness but I attributed that to poor posture while sitting at my computer all day at work. I even had an ergonomics guys come and check my workstation and he made reccommendations for adjustments - I also bought a supportive pillow for sleep. These did not work. Then, in June, things began to accelerate quickly and new symptoms came - inability to run more than 3 miles (even though 10 was easy for me just a month earlier), neck and joint pain, you all know the routine....that's when I tested positive for Lyme.
 
The story does not end there, for on August 4th, I finally got that cracked tooth fixed and my LLMD recommended a biological dentist "just to be safe". Within 2 hours of that procedure, I went into a type of mini-seizure event that lasted 2.5 hours. I did not know if it was a major herx or what, but the intensity was beyond anything I had experienced before. I went to my LLMD and she did a blood test and my blood mercury levels were VERY VERY HIGH. It turns out, this probably is accounted for in two areas - the dental amalgam fillings (I only have 2 or 3 left) and the fact that I eat "healthy" - the latter meaning no meat except FISH. The fish I eat 6-7 times a week plus I take loads of fish oil capsules - no doubt this added to my mercury load.
 
So, mercury in my case is VERY SUSPECT as at least a contributor to the illness. Plus, my doc and I are wondering whether it might have even been the thing that tipped the scale to reactivate the old Lyme in my system. The correlation of the cracked tooth with the initial small symptoms beginning back in March are awful coincidental. Plus, in this case, the large exposed amalgam filling from the cracked tooth was situated right next to a gold crown. Evident, this causing a battery-effect between the two metals that allows much higher levels of mercury vapor to leach out.
 
Anyway, my 2 cents. My treatment regimen now includes concurrent mercury detox and Lyme kill-off. I have to go slow and steady as too much mercury detox causes me MAJOR symptoms and can be dangerous as the Hg just moves around in your body. But, I am constantly wondering what is causing my symptoms nowadays - the Mercury or the Lyme (probably both). I do notice, though, that is I take too much of a known mercury chelator (chlorella or zeolite or EDTA), I get big-time "herxes". I believe these may be detox reactions to mercury instead. It's all in new areas of study. Some will be skeptical and some rush into quackery and some find true answers. Regardless, the other complexity seems to be is that everyone reacts differently to the toxins (lyme, mercury, etc.) so that everyone will have a treatment they will need to find to get through their particular situation....
 
yazzer 

Sunnyman
Regular Member


Date Joined Aug 2011
Total Posts : 73
   Posted 8/25/2011 2:37 PM (GMT -6)   
Sunnyman said...[It appears that you have studied the matter rather well, but focus on the weaker points so you can ignore the stronger. Of course it would be more comfortable to believe that this amalgam thing is overrated and not true.

Lymester said:
Not really. A few hours in the dentist's chair and then taking some cheap supplements sounds far better than taking years of antibiotics and supplements and paying llmds.


(S): You still seem to think that it is one or the other. Unfortunately its an accumulation of burden not a choice between one or the other.

Sunnyman said...
I will not go into the discussion of whether having mercury fillings is weakening your immune system or not, because there has been so overwhelming evidence of this around the world causing various countries to simply ban amalgam already.

Lymester said:
Banning amalgams is done for environmental reasons since dentistry accounts for the most mercury. I haven't seen any of the studies/evidence of which you speak, perhaps I have just missed them. Please post them so I can take a look and become more knowledgeable.


(S): What I did find a very clear proof of the burden amalgam fillings have on the immunesystem is the work of Eggleston. Published in the Journal of Prothetic Dentistry, where he clearly showed that amalgam filling did influence adversely the quantity of T-lymphocytes. Manipulating the amalgamfilling (taking them out and placing them back in) could bring lymphocytes up and down with more than 30%, while normaly the change is rarely over 5 %. An abnormal T-lymfocyte percent of lymfocytes or a malfunction of T-lymfocytes can increase the risk of cancer, infectious diseases and auto-immune diseases. •Eggleston DW: Effect of dental amalgam and nickel alloys on T-lymphocytes: Preliminary report. Journal of Prosthetic Dentistry 51:617-23, May, 1984


Sunnyman said...
There was this experiment though, where radioactive fillings were placed in sheep, just to see where the mercury would migrate towards. It was easy to see that the mercury concentrated in brain, liver and kidneys and was about everywhere else in minor quantities. Considering the overall consensus on the toxicity of mercury this is an important finding.

Lymester said:
I saw that study a while ago. What happened to the sheep? Were they all dead or crippled in some way? I don't recall what effect it had on them.


(S): This was to prove that mercury does migrate through the system and sits at different locations. It usually takes some time to make a person (or a sheep) sick this way.

Sunnyman said...
Whether amalgam sets you up for Lyme depends on how bad the body becomes selenium deficient with all the mercury going around. But if there are no fillings, selenium can still be low depending on geographic area.

Lymester said:
I am currently supplementing with selenium, 200 mcg a day. So far I haven't noticed much difference from it. I've seen some people on the web state that taking selenium while having fillings deposits even more mercury in the brain. Who do you believe?


(S): I don't see why that would be

Sunnyman said...
But it is so much easier to dismiss than to study this, so most 'experts' and professionals prefer to remain unaware of this

Lymester said:
You said above its been very well studied but here you say its been dismissed. I'm confused


(S): Well, studied by science, dismissed by politics and national health boards. At least here in Holland.

Sunnyman said...
I agree with you that Lyme is a more clear problem, but it must be also easy for you to understand that it doesn't help the recovering when there is still mercury toxicity having an impact on your immune system.

Lymester said:
Agreed, but how would I know if it is in my case?


(S): Because it always is, but the impact can differ tremendously. It could be of minor impact for you.

Sunnyman said...
But make sure that if you will decide to eliminate this factor from your plate, to become thoroughly informed about all the different aspect that come with the territory. Like have the replacement material checked for bio compatibility, so you wont get from the frying pan into the fire. This can be tested with serum.

Lymester said:
I've heard of that. How does that work exactly? How does a lab tell if serum is biocompatible with the thousands of components, and mixtures that make up dental restorative materials, bondings, sealants, etc? It seems almost impossible to do, or at the very least extremely expensive. Plus it isn't a static thing. Many seafood workers only develop an allergy to seafood after many years of exposure. How do you know that what you are replacing the mercury with you won't have trouble with after having it in your mouth for the next thirty years?


(S): You are right there is no way to be sure about this, just choosing between something that is already reactive and something that is not. (yet)
For details you must ask Huggins.

Sunnyman said...
The body has become adapted and used to the fillings in place, but will react if more gets added in the form of a mercury vial. So weakened response of the muscle indicates that adding more will burden the system.

Lymester said:
If my body has adapted and is used to my fillings, that would lead me to believe they aren't a problem. You seem to be contradicting yourself here. You have to think that since mercury is a natural element in the air, water and food, that our bodies know how to deal with low levels of it or the human race would have vanished long ago.


(S): When the body adapts it seeks a balance in counteracting the poison. It is still a problem but adapting takes place. Mercury is not normaly a part of our (amalgam free) day to day experience. Except for fish in small quantities, balanced by selenium.


Sunnyman said...
I am curious about what the result could be from the test on selenium for you. I would appreciate if you would tell once you would have the result.
Good health to you!

Lymester said:
The hair test tested for Selenium and my reading was 1.0 with a reference range of 0.95 - 1.7 so mine was the low end of normal. With recent supplementation I would expect it to be mid normal at this point, and even high. What does that tell you?


(S): Well, with selenium low, chances are glutathione is also low, so the immune system is not well equiped to fight off Lyme.

Lymester said:
I'll also mention you said this in another thread"
"If there is enough selenium in the body mercury silver fillings can cause no real harm, he said. Because selenium neutralises mercury completely.
This process however uses up the selenium in the body and hence diminishes your capability to fight infections and to neutralise toxins."
Why would you recommend to have fillings replaced when simply taking selenium protects me from the harm?


(S): Good question.
First of all it is Schrauzer saying this. One man against the whole bunch of anti-amalgam people. Not sure he is 100% right here.
Second, the problem with fillings is not only the heavy metal poisoning, but also the electrical currant.
And third, this lymfocytes thing by Eggleston.
So I think it will be better without them, but only in the right way with all pecautions.

Post Edited (Sunnyman) : 8/26/2011 9:58:15 AM (GMT-6)

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