What happens when you break up biofilms?

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borderlyme
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   Posted 10/16/2011 6:16 PM (GMT -6)   
I tend to react to drugs/herx really quickly...my metabolism is ridiculously fast...so I'm wondering if the reason I feel awful today is because I started cats claw for biofilms. My knees are red and killing me to the point of not being able to stand, my wrists are starting to hurt really badly, and I just feel really disoriented, kind of dizzy.

Does breaking up biofilms cause a herx? Can it work that fast? Yikes

Kramberry
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   Posted 10/17/2011 12:25 AM (GMT -6)   
What meds are you in borderlyme? What are you using to break the biofilms?

My llmd told me if you start attacking the biofilms without enough abx to kill the bacteria. Things like that and your symptoms get worse because the infection is out in the open.

Cat111
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   Posted 10/17/2011 7:29 AM (GMT -6)   
I just started Flagyl + Biaxin for the same reason. Almost immediatey (two pills of Flagyl) I got a horrible headache, felt weak and shaky-- for days.

This could be a side effect of the meds rather than a herx.....so I'm confused too. If I was confident it was a herx (good) then I would push on. But I really couldn't function in this condition and backed off of the Flagyl. Mistake probably!

I don't see my LLMD until next week to get some advice on the cyst busting/biofilm issue....but until then I just can't take the Flagyl.

At this stage of the game, proper Lyme meds protocol (how much more can my body take???) is beyond my comprehension and presents a fear factor that keeps me on edge.

I think I have a fast drug metabolism as well.

What ARE we to do?
Doxy, Amoxicillin, Azithromax, Mepron, Ceftin-- now Flagy + Biaxin. 11 months of treatment and counting.

achievinggrace
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   Posted 10/17/2011 9:22 AM (GMT -6)   
Borderlyme,

Cats claw is very effective against Lyme, as well. As sounds as if you are experiencing a herx reaction. Detox, detox, detox!!

Hope you feel better soon.
Co-Moderator Lyme Disease Forum

Spall
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Total Posts : 111
   Posted 10/17/2011 11:03 AM (GMT -6)   
If you're concerned about your sensitivity to particular medication, you can always get your blood level checked after taking it. Individual physiology impacts the actual amount of medication that gets to your bloodstream. Dr Burrascano did a study in the 90s where they took groups of people with similar age/weight/height/sex, then measured the levels of antibiotic in their blood about an hour after taking the exact same doses; the variations were up to 100x from patient to patient. I'm not sure if the same thing happens with herbs, but I would expect so. These variations would certainly account for some people having zero benefit from one drug while another can't even tolerate it.

Once you have enough medication in your bloodstream, there's really no benefit to taking extra, though the side effects will definitely get worse. You also can't lower your dose once you start to do better. The blood levels need to be kept high through the whole process or you'll only leave the strongest pieces of the infection alive, making it all that much tougher to kill the next time around.

Breaking biofilms is a very inexact science in humans. They can show clearly that a biofilm in a test tube can survive directly being doused with bleach, but can be completely broken apart by Banderol + Samento (cat's claw). This same process has proven impossible to prove within the body. I think at this point all you have to go on is your doctors anecdotal evidence; call and ask how quick the reaction typically takes at the dose they gave you.

Flagyl is quite different. I'm not aware of studies showing biofilm breaking properties, so I don't know how quickly the biofilm busting properties kick in, but I know it's supposed to take about 2 full weeks before the cyst busting it's normally used for takes place. In those applications If you take it 3-4 times for 10 days it won't do much of anything; it needs the full duration to function.

Spall
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   Posted 10/17/2011 12:04 PM (GMT -6)   
You do need an appropriate amount to actually kill the bacteria. If you have too low of a dose it will inhibit their reproduction (bacteriostatic) vs actively killing them (bacteriocide). Because Lyme reproduce so slowly, simply inhibiting their reproduction is not enough to do the trick.

The dose that goes in your mouth doesn't necessarily indicate the dose that reaches your blood. Doxy in particular needs a spike in levels to be effective (most other meds need sustained levels instead). Some people might reach that with fewer pills per day than others, while for others no practical amount of pills will cause that level to be reached.

I'm very early in my own treatment so I don't know if my doc will do it, but the blood level tests seem pretty simple. Again, you take your dose, wait about an hour, get blood drawn, they measure the level in your blood and can decide if your dosage needs to be adjusted as a result. It's certainly something to ask your doctor about if you feel you can't tolerate the doses they are giving you.

You could also try dorxy, which is very similar to doxy in function, but much less harsh with side effects. They also move to IV treatment in patients who can't tolerate enough oral medication to reach bacteriocide levels. Having the IV is no picnic to live with, but higher doses will be easier to tolerate this way.

Spall
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Date Joined Sep 2011
Total Posts : 111
   Posted 10/17/2011 1:03 PM (GMT -6)   
I really don't know. I'm starting to sound like I know more than I do; I'm really just functioning like a human search engine. I read studies, I read the peer reviews, I read how experienced doctors feel the information should modify conventional wisdom, but if I haven't read something that specifically explains a process (ie skin reaction in IV vs oral) I try not to comment.

IVs work faster, can reach the nervous system/brain more efficiently and can minimize some side effects. I've read lots about them eliminating stomach side effects and I know something like a PICC line can minimize the toxicity of a medication (some medications are only be given this way for this reason), but I think that's because some medications can cause problems with your veins if they have to travel through them. I don't know if any of this would serve to modify skin involvement.

There's plenty of literature demonstrating that IVs are not necessary for many patients, even those who are very sick and have substantial CNS/brain involvement. There are risk factors that make IVs more likely to be necessary, including the length of infection, age of the patient (higher = more likely), acute heart involvement, immune function problems or a failure to tolerate oral medication.

achievinggrace
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Date Joined Nov 2009
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   Posted 10/17/2011 1:32 PM (GMT -6)   
Spall,

We really appreciate you "functioning as a human search engine"!!! Great info, thanks!
Co-Moderator Lyme Disease Forum

Traveler
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Date Joined May 2007
Total Posts : 12591
   Posted 10/17/2011 2:55 PM (GMT -6)   
I agree with Achievinggrace! We really appreciate your being the human search engine! I do when I can function at that level - but lately I've been having some trouble.

Thanks Spall! We can all use all the help we can get, IMO! smilewinkgrin
Co-Moderator, Lyme Disease ;)

Treating with Acupuncture, Traditional & Modern Chinese Medicine & Western Herbs. Before tx, I had all but 20 of the symptoms on the "Master Symptom List"

"Absence of proof is not proof of absence" - Dr. Edwin Masters, great LLMD & researcher -RIP

I break up my post because my eyes have been effected by TBI's as well, making long paragraphs very hard to read.

scorp7
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Date Joined Jul 2011
Total Posts : 205
   Posted 10/17/2011 6:44 PM (GMT -6)   

Spall said...

There's plenty of literature demonstrating that IVs are not necessary for many patients, even those who are very sick and have substantial CNS/brain involvement. There are risk factors that make IVs more likely to be necessary, including the length of infection, age of the patient (higher = more likely), acute heart involvement, immune function problems or a failure to tolerate oral medication.
 
I could read this post over and over and over again.  I like feeling hopeful that I can treat my neuro lyme successfully by oral abx as well as supplements, especially since I have only had it 6 months now.   Altho I am feeling good right now, I do still have the neuro lyme and one of the most frightening things to me is the possibility of having to take iv abx.  I do not know why I am so against it or why it scares me.   Many at my drs office do it and he did say to me that we might have to talk about it at some point.
I know I am not obligated to take ivs but I enjoy reading about successful information with orals only for lyme brain.  I find it somewhat comforting.
Thanks for being such a good 'human search engine' smilewinkgrin

Traveler
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Date Joined May 2007
Total Posts : 12591
   Posted 10/18/2011 9:35 AM (GMT -6)   
Hi All!
I just discovered this site today, and I though it had a pretty good explanation of biofilms - a little bit of science, but not overly so: drsusanmarra.com/TickBorneInfections/LymeDisease/BacterialBiofilms.aspx

I do have to say that I am no expert, and I definitely do not know all that much about biofilms, but this site seems to have it right from what little I do know about the subject.
Co-Moderator, Lyme Disease ;)

Treating with Acupuncture, Traditional & Modern Chinese Medicine & Western Herbs. Before tx, I had all but 20 of the symptoms on the "Master Symptom List"

"Absence of proof is not proof of absence" - Dr. Edwin Masters, great LLMD & researcher -RIP

I break up my post because my eyes have been effected by TBI's as well, making long paragraphs very hard to read.

SickMan
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Date Joined Dec 2011
Total Posts : 73
   Posted 12/5/2011 10:49 AM (GMT -6)   
My friendly doctor suggested a product called InterFase for breaking up biofilms (am I allowed to post links?)

I know that when I started taking it, my herx reactions got nasty quick, but I keep taking them because I believe that biofilms are a big reason for drug resistance.

Anyone else tried that?

(I have no financial or other interest in the product).
I don't know what disease I have, and neither do the Doctors. Take my comments with a grain of salt. I am NOT a doctor (but I did play one in elementary school!)

achievinggrace
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Date Joined Nov 2009
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   Posted 12/5/2011 10:59 AM (GMT -6)   
Yes, you may post links as long as you have no financial or other interest in the product or are trying to fund raise. We welcome that kind of useful information.
Co-Moderator Lyme Disease Forum

yazzer
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Date Joined Jun 2011
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   Posted 12/5/2011 11:18 AM (GMT -6)   
Sickman - my LLMD also has me on these enzymes to address the biofilms - Serrapeptase, Interfase and Interfase Plus - serially. I finished the first one quite a few weeks ago and started the second one (Interfase). I think I was getting added herxing or detocx reactions. It seems that the biofilms are made up of various things including proteins and the like and probably any heavy metals that may have been handy for the pathogen to use to build it's gel-like fort. Uggh. I have high levels of mercury and I think the spilling of the nercury into my system from breaking down the B/F's was causing me issue. I stopped the interfase at the half-way point but will continue in the future as some point....I am making a better effort to do only one or two things at a time so as not to cause too much bodily reactions. BTW - the Interfase Plus is supposed to be the same as Interfase but with EDTA added.

SickMan
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Date Joined Dec 2011
Total Posts : 73
   Posted 12/5/2011 12:04 PM (GMT -6)   
Thanks yazzer
I don't know what disease I have, and neither do the Doctors. Take my comments with a grain of salt. I am NOT a doctor (but I did play one in elementary school!)

SickMan
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Date Joined Dec 2011
Total Posts : 73
   Posted 12/5/2011 12:04 PM (GMT -6)   
Thanks yazzer - do you take the biofilm fighting stuff even when you're not taking abx?

Traveler
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Date Joined May 2007
Total Posts : 12591
   Posted 12/5/2011 12:11 PM (GMT -6)   
Sickman,
Please be sure to detox!! Please don't make the mistake of believing that herxes are a good thing to have continue. The increase of symptoms is caused by a backlog of toxins from the die off of the bacteria. Without helping our bodies past this healing crisis, our bodies can't stay busy with healing as it has to deal with all of those toxins.

We have some great ideas for detoxing in our "New to Lyme?...Start here!" thread at the top of the forum. Some LLMD's have their own thoughts on what works best for detoxing, so asking yours might be a good idea as well.
Co-Moderator, Lyme Disease ;)

Treating with Acupuncture, Traditional & Modern Chinese Medicine & Western Herbs. Before tx, I had all but 20 of the symptoms on the "Master Symptom List"

"Absence of proof is not proof of absence" - Dr. Edwin Masters, great LLMD & researcher -RIP

I break up my post because my eyes have been effected by TBI's as well, making long paragraphs very hard to read.

SickMan
Regular Member


Date Joined Dec 2011
Total Posts : 73
   Posted 12/5/2011 12:21 PM (GMT -6)   
Here is a link to the ProThera biofilm enzymes.

InterFase
/www.protherainc.com/prod/proddetail.asp?id=K-INT

InterFase Plus (contains additional stuff to remove heavy metals)
/www.protherainc.com/prod/proddetail.asp?id=K-INTP

If you order from the site, you'll need a special code from your doctor, but my last batch was ordered from a large South American river.

I don't know if it works or not, but my herxing is amplified when I do take them.

SickMan

yazzer
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Date Joined Jun 2011
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   Posted 12/5/2011 12:34 PM (GMT -6)   
I take the enzymes while I am on the abx (but at different time of day). You need to take at the different time of day from food and abx cuz the enzymes would divert to breaking down the proteins in the food and not focus as much on the biofilms! I don't think you'd take the enzymes without some type of antibacterial - the enzymes break down the biofilms and release the crtters hiding within. You need something to kill them off as they are exposed. And, as Traveler so often (and MOST correctly) states - you have to be really up on your detoxing. breaking down the B/Fs will not only release the critters within for kill-off but also dump the toxins from the B/F itself into the bloodstream AND the other debris left over - this needs to be carted out of the body through the detox channels.

Post Edited (yazzer) : 12/5/2011 11:39:03 AM (GMT-7)


yazzer
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   Posted 12/5/2011 12:37 PM (GMT -6)   
SickMan:

My LLMD explained the enzymes like this to me (and like I said before, she used Serrapeptase first, then the I/F and then I/F Plus) - in a layman sort of way. The Serrapeptase evidently does the equivalent of "poking holes" into the biofilms. The Interfase then acts like scissors that cut slices between the holes left by the Serrapeptase., Finally, the Interfase Plus then does the final step of breaking apart the holey and sliced biofilms so that they are eliminate from the body.

SickMan
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Date Joined Dec 2011
Total Posts : 73
   Posted 12/5/2011 1:14 PM (GMT -6)   
Thanks yazzer, I also only take mine with the abx following the logic you state but wanted to ask those of you who are "old hands" at this for your opinions.

Traveler, I'm working my way through the "new to" thread. I have not focused so much on detox. My detox so far as been sporadic. I'll have to get on the ball!
I don't know what disease I have, and neither do the Doctors. Take my comments with a grain of salt. I am NOT a doctor (but I did play one in elementary school!)

LymieAngel
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Date Joined Sep 2011
Total Posts : 466
   Posted 12/5/2011 1:30 PM (GMT -6)   
you guys r awesome...and so dang smart......lol.......seriously u all are walking talking buffets of info and i enjoy reading yaw's post...*even though i dont understand most of them*...lol!!!!.....but im getting there and im learning alot.....i cant wait to see what i actually know...when my lymie brain starts to heal and im smarter than a box of kleenexes....
getting better.......

yazzer
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Date Joined Jun 2011
Total Posts : 898
   Posted 12/5/2011 1:40 PM (GMT -6)   
Yes, LymieAngel - the enzymes are not often inculuded with Lyme treatment by LLMDs - it's kinda a new area. But the science behind it makes sense and the biofilms are the last rue areas where Lyme can hide out in our bodies! So we have to get them cleared out as well.

SickMan
Regular Member


Date Joined Dec 2011
Total Posts : 73
   Posted 12/5/2011 1:49 PM (GMT -6)   
The only "main stream" reference I've seen for biofilms is a tv commercial for toothpaste which touts how well it breaks down biofilms.

But if you go look on PubMed, you'll see that biofilms are one of the hottest research topics these days. You WILL be hearing more about them in the near future.

My friendly doctor was the one who told me about biofilms.

BTW - My friendly doctor thinks outside of the box but is limited in treatment options due to the medico-political environment in NC.

My helpful doctor does not think outside of the box, but he's been willing to order whatever goofy test I ask him for and even if he thinks I'm nuts, he's still friendly and treats me with respect.

Then there are the a**hole doctors...
I don't know what disease I have, and neither do the Doctors. Take my comments with a grain of salt. I am NOT a doctor (but I did play one in elementary school!)

LymieAngel
Regular Member


Date Joined Sep 2011
Total Posts : 466
   Posted 12/5/2011 2:19 PM (GMT -6)   
sickman......the last reference to the docs around here i have met most of them......but i do have an excellent list of llmds in our area if u would like to use them for future reference....the doc i have right now is in chapel hill....but her herself has lyme and she is hard to get ahold of if u have a question but she is excelllent....i also have good references in greenville...wilmington...smithfield and chapel hill..i dont have a listing for a doc past the triangle area
getting better.......
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