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maxam
Regular Member


Date Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts : 87
   Posted 9/9/2013 6:55 PM (GMT -6)   
hello, haven't posted in awhile, but have been lurking around. I have been on many different antibiotics this year, with only a month here and there off. I just came off of 6 weeks of doxy, and am trying an herbal approach this time (felt great on the doxy, but can't afford my llmd anymore).

anyway, I started taking cat's claw yesterday and am feeling really crappy today. Joint pain, anxiety, depression, shaky, feverish... was wondering if it was possible to herx from cats claw, and would I be feeling it so quickly. I plan on adding reversterol(sp) made from Japanese knotweed as well.

Do the herbs really work? I am sick of being on antibiotics so frequently and relapsing as soon as I am off of them. I am feeling desperate to feel better, and need a glimmer of hope.

Also, I am on lexapro, is it safe to take herbs with this drug. I am pretty sure there are no interactions, but was wondering if anyone had any personal experience.

Thanks in advance for the responses, hope everyone is doing well.

sorry this post is so all over the place.

rowingmom
Regular Member


Date Joined Dec 2011
Total Posts : 399
   Posted 9/9/2013 8:04 PM (GMT -6)   
You certainly can herx from cat's claw. For me it brought out symptoms I had never had before. Skin sensitivity and burning. Painful elbow joints. I would not embark on any herbal protocol without Japanese knotweed. I have made myself feel very badly with various herbals while omitting knotweed. Knotweed helps ALOT.
2008 - insect bite (bruise-like rash) - motor/vocal tics, emotional lability (including rage), age regressive behaviour, low level OCD, urinary frequency, diminished fine motor ability, insomnia. Waxed and waned with strep/viral infections.
2010 - Dx ADHD, motor tic disorder, high functioning aspergers, motor delay, probable PANDAS.
Jan 2011 - shin/forearm pain, cyclic IBS, foot (sole) pain, dizziness, palpitations, chest pain, anxiety/panic attacks, pick-like skull pain, pain and stiffness at base of skull, tingling in extremeties, chills and hot flashes, nightly fever.
June 2011 - Igenex PCR positive bartonella, IND lyme. CD57 18. Positive ANA (speckled type), heterozygous A1298C MTHFR. Multiple Abx, herbal, homeopathic treatment with LLMD.

Jan 2013 - Bartonella IgG titers have decreased from 160 (Jun 2011) to 80. CD 57 remains low.

April 2013 - Weaned from abx treatment. Continuing wth Buhner, Byron White, Zhang, methylation/detox protocols, Terry Wahls gf/cf/sf diet. Minimizing EMF exposure

skBM
Regular Member


Date Joined Jun 2011
Total Posts : 262
   Posted 9/9/2013 9:53 PM (GMT -6)   
I am currently using knotweed tincture from woodlandessence.com. Stephen Buhner recommends 1 tsp 3x per day with the tincture (150lb+ adult). So that's 100 drops, 3x per day. That's why I get the 4oz bottle. (100lb adult is 2/3 tsp, which is 66 drops 3x per day).

I stopped using cat's claw. It was effective, but I have reason to believe it was causing muscle/tendon pain. This has been reported by few people, but it has been noticed none-the-less. I am doing fine without the cat's claw. A quote: "Because Cats Claw is derived from the same substances that comprise the quinolone class of antibiotics, it shares similar side effects. Most notably, both the quinolone antibiotics and Cats Claw have been associated with tendon damage. This occurrence is quite rare, and new research shows that this side effect may be avoided if intracellular magnesium levels are brought back up to healthy levels. Nonetheless, proceed with caution when using Cats Claw."

I believe I noticed it because I am very physically active, and my magnesium levels are chronically low.

MarieLS
Veteran Member


Date Joined Dec 2012
Total Posts : 1560
   Posted 9/10/2013 12:51 AM (GMT -6)   

Cat's Claw for me was causing a lot of herxing. I had to start on a low dose and be very careful when increasing it. It took me 2 months to get to 1/2 of the dosage advised by Buhner. Like Rowingmom wrote: be sure to use Japanese Knotweed, I would start it as soon as possible. My dr even prescribes it combination with the abx.

I don't know how long you've been under treatment, but here comes the word... patience. A horrible word, but you will need it. It's so very hard to not have a finishing point in sight, but that it sadly how it is... Just try to go day by day, don't think much about tomorrow, next week or next month, it will only make you more frustrated. Since I stopped doing this (most of the time, I confess eyes ), I feel much more at ease.

Good luck, and hold on wink

 


Lyme & Bartonella. Sick for about 19 years (34 now). Started treatment August 2012 with abx (ILADS protocol, different combinations) + Buhner's Core Protocol. Leaky gut, heavy metals, EBV, XMRV, erythema nodosum, Hodgkin's Lymphoma at 15, Lyme arthritis, many neurological symptoms, food allergies/intolerances, histamine/chemical intolerance and much more.

rowingmom
Regular Member


Date Joined Dec 2011
Total Posts : 399
   Posted 9/10/2013 12:09 PM (GMT -6)   
skBM said...
A quote: "Because Cats Claw is derived from the same substances that comprise the quinolone class of antibiotics, it shares similar side effects. Most notably, both the quinolone antibiotics and Cats Claw have been associated with tendon damage. This occurrence is quite rare, and new research shows that this side effect may be avoided if intracellular magnesium levels are brought back up to healthy levels. Nonetheless, proceed with caution when using Cats Claw."

I believe I noticed it because I am very physically active, and my magnesium levels are chronically low.
skBM - Interesting, thank you.  Do you have a source for the quote?  Our ND would probably be interested. 
 
I just assumed that my joint pain was from activation and die-off of lyme in the joints, and that others reporting the joint pain caused by cat's claw perhaps had undiagnosed lyme and didn't understand the concept of a herx reaction.  
 
I must say looking back at all the symptoms my daughter had, while herxing on the various abx used for her lyme/bart treatment, joint pain was not one of them.
 
I was even thinking about restarting cat's claw for myself.  I have been feeling wonderful on the Buhner's protocol and thought maybe I should be pushing myself a little harder.  Imagine that, I start to feel great and then feel guilty, like I'm not doing enough to punish the bacteria.   


2008 - insect bite (bruise-like rash) - motor/vocal tics, emotional lability (including rage), age regressive behaviour, low level OCD, urinary frequency, diminished fine motor ability, insomnia. Waxed and waned with strep/viral infections.
2010 - Dx ADHD, motor tic disorder, high functioning aspergers, motor delay, probable PANDAS.
Jan 2011 - shin/forearm pain, cyclic IBS, foot (sole) pain, dizziness, palpitations, chest pain, anxiety/panic attacks, pick-like skull pain, pain and stiffness at base of skull, tingling in extremeties, chills and hot flashes, nightly fever.
June 2011 - Igenex PCR positive bartonella, IND lyme. CD57 18. Positive ANA (speckled type), heterozygous A1298C MTHFR. Multiple Abx, herbal, homeopathic treatment with LLMD.

Jan 2013 - Bartonella IgG titers have decreased from 160 (Jun 2011) to 80. CD 57 remains low.

April 2013 - Weaned from abx treatment. Continuing wth Buhner, Byron White, Zhang, methylation/detox protocols, Terry Wahls gf/cf/sf diet. Minimizing EMF exposure

Post Edited (rowingmom) : 9/10/2013 12:12:06 PM (GMT-6)


ToddPaul
Veteran Member


Date Joined Nov 2012
Total Posts : 543
   Posted 9/10/2013 1:08 PM (GMT -6)   
I find it interesting as well. I've been on the same exact Cat's Claw as skBM (Now brand extract caps) and have been having muscle pain in my left arm which is not something I've experienced in the past. I seem to notice every time I initially go on these that it hits my right thigh muscle after first dose with slight pain and tightness but only for a day or two. The arm pain continues though and can get quite painful for short periods of time.

maxam
Regular Member


Date Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts : 87
   Posted 9/10/2013 3:26 PM (GMT -6)   
Thank you all for the replies! It helps knowing others have the same experiences. I will keep up with the protocol.
Thanks again!

skBM
Regular Member


Date Joined Jun 2011
Total Posts : 262
   Posted 9/11/2013 1:40 PM (GMT -6)   
rowingmom said...
skBM said...
A quote: "Because Cats Claw is derived from the same substances that comprise the quinolone class of antibiotics, it shares similar side effects. Most notably, both the quinolone antibiotics and Cats Claw have been associated with tendon damage. This occurrence is quite rare, and new research shows that this side effect may be avoided if intracellular magnesium levels are brought back up to healthy levels. Nonetheless, proceed with caution when using Cats Claw."

I believe I noticed it because I am very physically active, and my magnesium levels are chronically low.

skBM - Interesting, thank you. Do you have a source for the quote? Our ND would probably be interested.



I just assumed that my joint pain was from activation and die-off of lyme in the joints, and that others reporting the joint pain caused by cat's claw perhaps had undiagnosed lyme and didn't understand the concept of a herx reaction.



I must say looking back at all the symptoms my daughter had, while herxing on the various abx used for her lyme/bart treatment, joint pain was not one of them.



I was even thinking about restarting cat's claw for myself. I have been feeling wonderful on the Buhner's protocol and thought maybe I should be pushing myself a little harder. Imagine that, I start to feel great and then feel guilty, like I'm not doing enough to punish the bacteria.


I got that exact quote from this website: http://www.lymebook.com/lyme-grapefruit-lauricidin-colloidal-silver-samento

I simply googled "cat's claw tendon damage" or something like that. This is hardly a scientific source, but I remembered reading it in a few places before, and it was verified by my own experience. I had been using cat's claw for something around a year. It definitely made me feel way better overall (in combination with banderol), but I was having a lot of problems with my legs when I played sports, problems that I never really had before. It is possible that it was herxing, I can't say that I know for sure. What I can say, is that I haven't used cat's claw in a month, and my legs are not cramping up (or in pain) as much as they were when I was using cat's claw. I have a theory that it draws magnesium from the system in some way, or maybe it causes the bugs to draw more magnesium, I honestly don't know for sure. But my legs aren't feeling the pains nearly as much now, and my sports performance/endurance has increased dramatically.

I don't think it would hurt to give cat's claw a try. It may not ever cause problems for most people. As Stephen Buhner says, pay attention to how your body feels. If after starting something new, you are having more problems, discontinue the use of that treatment.

Here are three links on Buhner's site where people reported possible pain or damage from using cat's claw.
http://buhnerhealinglyme.com/herbs/cats-claw-and-tendonitis/
http://buhnerhealinglyme.com/herbs/cats-claw-worsening-tendonitis-pain/
http://buhnerhealinglyme.com/herbs/extreme-joint-pain-from-cats-claw/

But again, it seems to be a rare thing.

If you do try cat's claw and then come to believe it is causing certain pains, Stephen Buhner lists some substitutes. Eleuthero, rhodiola, and ashwagandha all help the immune system, much like cat's claw. Eleuthero is working very well for me in combination with knotweed and teasel.

Post Edited (skBM) : 9/11/2013 1:43:31 PM (GMT-6)


sunny_1
Regular Member


Date Joined Aug 2013
Total Posts : 73
   Posted 9/11/2013 5:08 PM (GMT -6)   
Herxing from cats claw, I would say definitely. I did. Along with my other herbs, my ND's Lyme Remedy is:
Cats claw
Andrographis
Stillingia
Prickly ash

In addition to all those I do abx, but will stay on the herbs post-abx.

Note, my herxing was less uncomfortable once I eliminated sugar and upped my veggie intake. I feel like detox baths moved things along too.

Hope you get some relief soon.
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