Herbal Protocols: Beyond Balance, Buhner, Cowden, Zhang

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Pirouette
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Date Joined Mar 2014
Total Posts : 5351
   Posted 5/19/2017 10:41 AM (GMT -6)   
For those starting out w/ Lyme & Co treatment or interested in other protocols I came across a good short summary of these four protocols, FYI:
www.lymeknowledge.com/treatments/

Introduction:
"There are many different treatment protocols for Lyme & tick-borne diseases. Here we list some of the protocols that you may hear of as you start educating yourself on how to get well. Our hope is that we can provide you a quick overview of some of the most common protocols in one consolidated place to help ramp up your education as quickly as possible so you can make the best choices for you.

This is not an exhaustive list nor is it all the information for each protocol. Some of the factors that might weigh into which treatment protocol is right for you are when you were infected, what co-infections might be present as well as your individual current state of health.

It is highly recommended that you work with a knowledgeable practitioner to help guide you on your road to wellness. Having a better understanding of the different treatment strategies will hopefully help you make educated decisions on how to proceed."

-p

Traveler
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Date Joined May 2007
Total Posts : 35661
   Posted 5/19/2017 10:52 AM (GMT -6)   
Thanks P! Great explanations of the different options of those three protocols - although there are others, those are the main ones that are used. It's bookmarked for me now!
Herb only treatment for Lyme & Bart ended 12/11 - no active symptoms for 2 yrs -Herb only treatment for Babesia ended 12/12
www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=30&m=2977364
Had Lyme, Bart, Babs, RMSF, Ehrlichia, Myco, Anaplasmosis, EBV
New Lyme case 8/2014 - Healed 1/31/15 - unknowingly had Asymptomatic Babs and Asymptomatic Bart, being treated now though (2/2016)

Klagh
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Date Joined Jan 2017
Total Posts : 132
   Posted 5/19/2017 12:08 PM (GMT -6)   
Yes, THANKS, P.

In reading, I noticed it says:

Dr. Zhang says “It is recommended that patients treat Babesiosis for at least 2-3 months with Arteminisin or general Lyme treatment may not be effective.”

I'm using artimisinen right now, and I WAS going to use it for 40 days, but after reading that I believe I SHOULD extend it to 60 days.

Girlie
Forum Moderator


Date Joined May 2014
Total Posts : 23718
   Posted 5/19/2017 12:28 PM (GMT -6)   
Klagh - if you're using Artemisinin (not whole herb Artemisia) then don't do 40 or 60 days straight.

You need to pulse it.

There are differing opinions on how long you can be on it before you risk the chance of it not working. (The intestines can create an enzyme rendering it useless)

LLMD MR says 3 days on and 11 days off.

Other LLMD's say a week on is fine.

And, you want to increase the dose...not stay on a low dose.
Moderator, Lyme Forum
Symp started April/2013; Buhner's Lyme May 15-July24/14; Igenex pos. July 3/14
Doxy: July 4-Aug.24/14;Zithro July26-Aug24/14; Amox + Proben. Aug. 29/14;
added biaxin Sept. 26/14
Disc. amox,added Ceftin Nov. 20th.;
Disc. biaxin added Buhner bart herbs Dec/14;Jan/15 pulsing Tinda (w/ Ceftin);
Abx/herb break Apr-July/15; July-mino; Aug. added Rif;
Nov./15 mino - to biaxi

Krimpet 🍔
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Date Joined Apr 2016
Total Posts : 3270
   Posted 5/19/2017 1:41 PM (GMT -6)   
Girlie I thought it was the reverse. Artemisia being the one that had to be pulsed. I think Traveler has written about this many times...perhaps I can find it.
Lyme Moderator

Current treatment: Dr. Jernigan borrelogen, Microbojen, Neuro antitoxin CNS/PNS, monolaurin, lomatium, samento/cats claw, cordyceps, licorice root, Hawthorne (restarting), milk thistle, oregano oil (as needed), gse, adrenal glandular/cortex, vitamin A, D, C, multi, liposomal glutathione, probiotic, fish oil, organic foods
___________________________________

Krimpet 🍔
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Date Joined Apr 2016
Total Posts : 3270
   Posted 5/19/2017 1:45 PM (GMT -6)   
OK found one. Girlie you are correct.

www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=30&m=3475655
Lyme Moderator

Current treatment: Dr. Jernigan borrelogen, Microbojen, Neuro antitoxin CNS/PNS, monolaurin, lomatium, samento/cats claw, cordyceps, licorice root, Hawthorne (restarting), milk thistle, oregano oil (as needed), gse, adrenal glandular/cortex, vitamin A, D, C, multi, liposomal glutathione, probiotic, fish oil, organic foods
___________________________________

Klagh
Regular Member


Date Joined Jan 2017
Total Posts : 132
   Posted 5/19/2017 1:45 PM (GMT -6)   
Girlie,
YES - I AM pulsing the artimisinen, based on your previous advice smile

I take artimisinen ONLY on Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday.

BUT - based on what Dr. Zhang says, maybe I should pulse artimisinen for TWO months. OR THREE?? (Rather than 40 days, as I had originally planned.)

(I cannot increase the artimisinen dosage above one cap a day. My crazy system goes into meltdown at more than one a day.)

julymorning
Veteran Member


Date Joined Jul 2015
Total Posts : 3792
   Posted 5/19/2017 1:48 PM (GMT -6)   
Pirouette said...
For those starting out w/ Lyme & Co treatment or interested in other protocols I came across a good short summary of these four protocols, FYI:
www.lymeknowledge.com/treatments/

Introduction:
"There are many different treatment protocols for Lyme & tick-borne diseases. Here we list some of the protocols that you may hear of as you start educating yourself on how to get well. Our hope is that we can provide you a quick overview of some of the most common protocols in one consolidated place to help ramp up your education as quickly as possible so you can make the best choices for you.

This is not an exhaustive list nor is it all the information for each protocol. Some of the factors that might weigh into which treatment protocol is right for you are when you were infected, what co-infections might be present as well as your individual current state of health.

It is highly recommended that you work with a knowledgeable practitioner to help guide you on your road to wellness. Having a better understanding of the different treatment strategies will hopefully help you make educated decisions on how to proceed."

-p



Awesome P.! I've often wanted to be able to offer people something like this to read who are newly interested in the herbal approach, as options to sort, rather than just one name.

Mustard Seed
Veteran Member


Date Joined May 2016
Total Posts : 1062
   Posted 5/19/2017 2:28 PM (GMT -6)   
For what it's worth, Zhang doesn't mention anything about pulsing his Artemisia products because he's not using Artimisinin. He's using artesunate and dihydroartemisinin in his Artemisiae and Artemisiae-2 supplements, respectively.

Girlie
Forum Moderator


Date Joined May 2014
Total Posts : 23718
   Posted 5/19/2017 2:29 PM (GMT -6)   
Klagh said...
Girlie,
YES - I AM pulsing the artimisinen, based on your previous advice smile

I take artimisinen ONLY on Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday.

BUT - based on what Dr. Zhang says, maybe I should pulse artimisinen for TWO months. OR THREE?? (Rather than 40 days, as I had originally planned.)

(I cannot increase the artimisinen dosage above one cap a day. My crazy system goes into meltdown at more than one a day.)


If your system goes into 'meltdown' with only one a day...then you need to continue taking it until that doesn't happen anymore. Since it's a bart treatment...may as well give it a good length of time.

Are your caps 100 mg each?

LLMD MR says to increase each day..... but if the 1 cap is already causing a herx...then you'll have to continue on that dosage for awhile.
Moderator, Lyme Forum
Symp started April/2013; Buhner's Lyme May 15-July24/14; Igenex pos. July 3/14
Doxy: July 4-Aug.24/14;Zithro July26-Aug24/14; Amox + Proben. Aug. 29/14;
added biaxin Sept. 26/14
Disc. amox,added Ceftin Nov. 20th.;
Disc. biaxin added Buhner bart herbs Dec/14;Jan/15 pulsing Tinda (w/ Ceftin);
Abx/herb break Apr-July/15; July-mino; Aug. added Rif;
Nov./15 mino - to biaxi

Post Edited (Girlie) : 5/19/2017 2:58:45 PM (GMT-6)


BJD55
Regular Member


Date Joined Jan 2017
Total Posts : 323
   Posted 5/19/2017 2:52 PM (GMT -6)   
Thanks for posting this Pirouette! That's a real nice overview on each. I'm surprised they doesn't mention byron white formulas. While it says beyond balance formulas are "gentle" my experience with byron white a-bab wasn't so gentle. 😨
My llmd put me on beyond balance mc-bab-2 which I'm finding gentle so far at 2 drops bid. He said he uses this to prepare patients for a-bab.

Here's a link to byron white formulas :
http://www.byronwhiteformulas.com/
BWF seem to only disseminate info about their products to practitioners.

Klagh
Regular Member


Date Joined Jan 2017
Total Posts : 132
   Posted 5/19/2017 3:12 PM (GMT -6)   
Girlie,
The artimisinen caps I take are 425 mg. each. Could be why I have a herx if I try two at a time. Just too much.

I am going to keep taking them for two months.

BUT - are you saying that since they are artimisinen, I don't have to pulse them?


Thanks for your responses! wink

Mustard Seed
Veteran Member


Date Joined May 2016
Total Posts : 1062
   Posted 5/19/2017 3:37 PM (GMT -6)   
I'm not Girlie, but if what you're taking is Artemisinin, then you should be pulsing it.

Girlie
Forum Moderator


Date Joined May 2014
Total Posts : 23718
   Posted 5/19/2017 3:55 PM (GMT -6)   
Mustard Seed said...
For what it's worth, Zhang doesn't mention anything about pulsing his Artemisia products because he's not using Artimisinin. He's using artesunate and dihydroartemisinin in his Artemisiae and Artemisiae-2 supplements, respectively.


Yes, the only one that needs to be pulsed is the Artemisnin.

The Artesunate and dihydroartemisinin are semi- synthetic derivatives of Artemisinin.

Interesting that Zhang labels his Artemisia - which gives the appearance of whole herb.
Moderator, Lyme Forum
Symp started April/2013; Buhner's Lyme May 15-July24/14; Igenex pos. July 3/14
Doxy: July 4-Aug.24/14;Zithro July26-Aug24/14; Amox + Proben. Aug. 29/14;
added biaxin Sept. 26/14
Disc. amox,added Ceftin Nov. 20th.;
Disc. biaxin added Buhner bart herbs Dec/14;Jan/15 pulsing Tinda (w/ Ceftin);
Abx/herb break Apr-July/15; July-mino; Aug. added Rif;
Nov./15 mino - to biaxi

Girlie
Forum Moderator


Date Joined May 2014
Total Posts : 23718
   Posted 5/19/2017 3:57 PM (GMT -6)   
Klagh said...
Girlie,
The artimisinen caps I take are 425 mg. each. Could be why I have a herx if I try two at a time. Just too much.

I am going to keep taking them for two months.

BUT - are you saying that since they are artimisinen, I don't have to pulse them?


Thanks for your responses! wink


What brand is that, Klagh?
Mine are 100mg caps , but I've also seen 200 mg caps.

You DO need to pulse it. Artemisinin needs to be pulsed.
Moderator, Lyme Forum
Symp started April/2013; Buhner's Lyme May 15-July24/14; Igenex pos. July 3/14
Doxy: July 4-Aug.24/14;Zithro July26-Aug24/14; Amox + Proben. Aug. 29/14;
added biaxin Sept. 26/14
Disc. amox,added Ceftin Nov. 20th.;
Disc. biaxin added Buhner bart herbs Dec/14;Jan/15 pulsing Tinda (w/ Ceftin);
Abx/herb break Apr-July/15; July-mino; Aug. added Rif;
Nov./15 mino - to biaxi

PeteZa
Veteran Member


Date Joined Jul 2015
Total Posts : 8164
   Posted 5/19/2017 4:15 PM (GMT -6)   
This is awesome P.... thank you.
____________

Good Article

Pirouette
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Date Joined Mar 2014
Total Posts : 5351
   Posted 5/19/2017 4:35 PM (GMT -6)   
BJD -
Good BW link.

I agree! I thought the Byron White A-Bab was more intense. The A-Bart gave me GI attacks, including one that landed me in ER. Crikey! Oddly, I had a CDC-pos IGeneX for Lyme, yet the BW AL-Complex for Lyme did NOTHING for me, even at higher-than-max doses.

I’m liking the Beyond Balance and have incorporated MC-BB-2, MC-Bab, MC-Bar, BFM-1, tox-ease and something else I can’t remember. But I hope to “graduate” to the BW A-bart again, now that my infection load is significantly reduced and I’m healthier. I really want to know if it hit something none of the others have.

I think the reason BW formulas aren’t included in this summary is because they are not “attainable” by the general public w/out a practitioner's subscriber number but this might be because they are more intense. I’m not sure.

-p
Lyme Moderator
Chronic late-stage lyme—likely infected in '00; Clinically dx Mar'14 w/ Babs, Fry Labs+ Bart-like, CDC+ Bb. First treated 4-5 viruses & GI/immune. Herbal antimicrobials in May; IV port-started Rocephin in Nov; added vancomycin Mar'16;
DETOX: Pinella/Burbur/Parsley/Milk thistle/Burdock/Red root; Samento/Banderol/Enula; JK/Turmeric; BFM-1; antifung; many many supps; cholestyramine!

Mustard Seed
Veteran Member


Date Joined May 2016
Total Posts : 1062
   Posted 5/19/2017 4:48 PM (GMT -6)   
Girlie said...
Mustard Seed said...
For what it's worth, Zhang doesn't mention anything about pulsing his Artemisia products because he's not using Artimisinin. He's using artesunate and dihydroartemisinin in his Artemisiae and Artemisiae-2 supplements, respectively.


Yes, the only one that needs to be pulsed is the Artemisnin.

The Artesunate and dihydroartemisinin are semi- synthetic derivatives of Artemisinin.

Interesting that Zhang labels his Artemisia - which gives the appearance of whole herb.


He doesn't label it as Artemisia, he labels is as Artemisiae... a word he seemingly made-up.

BJD55
Regular Member


Date Joined Jan 2017
Total Posts : 323
   Posted 5/19/2017 4:55 PM (GMT -6)   
Pirouette said...
BJD -
Good BW link.

I agree! I thought the Byron White A-Bab was more intense. The A-Bart gave me GI attacks, including one that landed me in ER. Crikey! Oddly, I had a CDC-pos IGeneX for Lyme, yet the BW AL-Complex for Lyme did NOTHING for me, even at higher-than-max doses.

I’m liking the Beyond Balance and have incorporated MC-BB-2, MC-Bab, MC-Bar, BFM-1, tox-ease and something else I can’t remember. But I hope to “graduate” to the BW A-bart again, now that my infection load is significantly reduced and I’m healthier. I really want to know if it hit something none of the others have.

I think the reason BW formulas aren’t included in this summary is because they are not “attainable” by the general public w/out a practitioner's subscriber number but this might be because they are more intense. I’m not sure.

-p

Holy moly Pirouette, you had to go to the er from a-bart! Can you elaborate more on what happened and how it resolved?
Do you feel anything from the mc-bab - 2? What's your dose?

I don't know the ratio of other beyond balance formulas but the mc-bab-2 is 1:10, byron white formulas are 1:1!

Pirouette
Veteran Member


Date Joined Mar 2014
Total Posts : 5351
   Posted 5/19/2017 5:18 PM (GMT -6)   
Hi BJD55 -

I did feel some herxing as I titrated up to optimal dose of MC-bab-2 (20 drops 2x/day). Babs herxes like to mess with my adrenals so the sx that flare for me are insomnia, hot/cold temp swings, anxiety and irritability, diarrhea sometimes. There are a few more but that's all I can remember. I got up to 20 drops twice/day with no herxing for a few months so I decided to go back to BW A-bab and start with that again, as I think it was hitting babs better for me.

I also incorporated C.S.A. and flared like crazy and had to stop it so that I could be productive throughout May. Will be restarting it soon. I understand it hits both babs and bart.

A-Bart episodes -
Back before I had even one thought about Lyme & Co, I was battling chronic sinusitis and bronchitis - throughout 2013 for 13 months. I saw 8-9 different MDs who each put me on various abx and not only did the sinusitis and bronchitis keep getting worse (because they were fungal in nature, not bacterial, which I figured out on my own and made progress w/ antifungals) but with all the abx I was taking (some that are used to treat Lyme & Co) was causing very Lyme & Co-specific symptoms. Finally. After 16 yrs of mystery sx I finally had better info to take to an LLMD and I finally got dx and started treatment.

However...
During the course of the abx round-about for the sinusitis/bronchitis, I started developing these horrific GI attacks. I later figured out that the were likely triggered by the Levofloxacin I had been prescribed, which is often prescribed for bart (Levaquin). I didn't stay on the Levofloxacin long because I got good-and-floxed on it. Took me a year to figure this out but that was when these attacks started...

The attacks would come ever 4-5 wks, always start around midnight. I would wake up with this pulsating cramping in my stomach that would slowly get more intense and start involving the upper GI, lower GI and all throughout my torso (so all the other digestive organs were also cramping). It would get progressively worse and about 6 hrs after they started, I would dry heave for hours, passing out inbetween. Or if I had anything in my stomach I would projectile vomit a few times then everything would stop. I'd sleep it off for a day and would go back to status quo.

LLMD was clueless. We decided it might be palsy of the gut, caused by bart so she put me on A-Bart and over the next year the episodes grew worse in intensity (but not frequency - always 4-5 wks). I ran out of Bart during a time when I was rally struggling and stopped taking it for a month - no episode. Started A-bart again, ended up in ER this time. To test out the relationship I went back off A-bart and waited another month, no episode.

So that's when we figured out the link and I started vanco IV for bart and haven't had another episode since. And that's why I say my true test for whatever bart-like thing in my gut causing so many problems is trying A-bart again. If I can tolerate it, I've definitely made progress! I'm doing well on vanco - very well. GI is in good shape. But am still struggling with "electrical" problems that are due to bart or babs.

-p

Post Edited (Pirouette) : 5/19/2017 5:21:31 PM (GMT-6)


Girlie
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Date Joined May 2014
Total Posts : 23718
   Posted 5/19/2017 5:58 PM (GMT -6)   
Mustard Seed said...
Girlie said...
Mustard Seed said...
For what it's worth, Zhang doesn't mention anything about pulsing his Artemisia products because he's not using Artimisinin. He's using artesunate and dihydroartemisinin in his Artemisiae and Artemisiae-2 supplements, respectively.


Yes, the only one that needs to be pulsed is the Artemisnin.

The Artesunate and dihydroartemisinin are semi- synthetic derivatives of Artemisinin.

Interesting that Zhang labels his Artemisia - which gives the appearance of whole herb.


He doesn't label it as Artemisia, he labels is as Artemisiae... a word he seemingly made-up.


haha. I wonder if that's how he is able to market it as a supplement rather than a pharma (di-hydroartemisinin is a drug I think)
Moderator, Lyme Forum
Symp started April/2013; Buhner's Lyme May 15-July24/14; Igenex pos. July 3/14
Doxy: July 4-Aug.24/14;Zithro July26-Aug24/14; Amox + Proben. Aug. 29/14;
added biaxin Sept. 26/14
Disc. amox,added Ceftin Nov. 20th.;
Disc. biaxin added Buhner bart herbs Dec/14;Jan/15 pulsing Tinda (w/ Ceftin);
Abx/herb break Apr-July/15; July-mino; Aug. added Rif;
Nov./15 mino - to biaxi

BJD55
Regular Member


Date Joined Jan 2017
Total Posts : 323
   Posted 5/19/2017 7:34 PM (GMT -6)   
Thanks for the story Pirouette. I think we've been similarly affected by these bugs when it comes to the endo, anxiety, and gut issues. I'm glad the vanco is treating you well. Is there any need to bother with the a-bart again?

I was thinking that the agitation I feel from the herbs couldn't be a herx, but am coming around to the reality that it is. I want to get busy knocking this back as I've only been nibbling around the edges of it with artemesinin and failed attempts at a-bab and buhner herbs that freak me out with agitation and anxiety.

If the mc-bab-2 causes the same herx as I increase dose, it looks like I'm gonna have to cowboy up a bit to get through this, or try some Valium.

Pirouette
Veteran Member


Date Joined Mar 2014
Total Posts : 5351
   Posted 5/19/2017 7:52 PM (GMT -6)   
I am trying to be as comprehensive as possible. If there is something left for bart to do, I want it done!

Unfortunately, the only way is to work through the issues. Detox usually helps but it often takes the right things and working up to those, too. It's good that you're going slowly. Be brave. ;)

-p
Lyme Moderator
Chronic late-stage lyme—likely infected in '00; Clinically dx Mar'14 w/ Babs, Fry Labs+ Bart-like, CDC+ Bb. First treated 4-5 viruses & GI/immune. Herbal antimicrobials in May; IV port-started Rocephin in Nov; added vancomycin Mar'16;
DETOX: Pinella/Burbur/Parsley/Milk thistle/Burdock/Red root; Samento/Banderol/Enula; JK/Turmeric; BFM-1; antifung; many many supps; cholestyramine!

PeteZa
Veteran Member


Date Joined Jul 2015
Total Posts : 8164
   Posted 5/19/2017 8:22 PM (GMT -6)   
I think I would have had you continue past the 20 drops on MC-BAB-2 and go to 3 times a day. Just my opinion.

Don't you just love the taste of the MC-BB-2? I love the clove taste in it.
____________

Good Article

Mustard Seed
Veteran Member


Date Joined May 2016
Total Posts : 1062
   Posted 5/19/2017 9:02 PM (GMT -6)   
PeteZa said...
I think I would have had you continue past the 20 drops on MC-BAB-2 and go to 3 times a day. Just my opinion.

Don't you just love the taste of the MC-BB-2? I love the clove taste in it.


I'd agree.

I was up to 30 drops 3x daily for a while, but it started getting really expensive.

Working my way back up there now, but stuck at 14 drops 3x daily.
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