Loss of muscle

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Traci
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Date Joined Mar 2017
Total Posts : 61
   Posted 8/11/2017 1:37 PM (GMT -6)   
Went to the neurologist and she noticed I'm losing muscle in my hands? Is this common with Lyme? And if it is will I gain it back? I know I have small fiber neuropathy in my hands. Very hard to carry things and Use my hands and fingers.

goshawk
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Date Joined Sep 2016
Total Posts : 1071
   Posted 8/11/2017 2:48 PM (GMT -6)   
Sorry about that Traci, I have seen other posts were members had muscle wasting/loss.

Hopefully they will see this and might have some advice.

Take care and I wish you the best of healing, Jo
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mcspike
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Date Joined Sep 2016
Total Posts : 165
   Posted 8/11/2017 2:59 PM (GMT -6)   
Yes i have muscle loss. Im using a supplement called 'Core' by biopure. The theory is that theres a substance in the Lymies blood that actually consumes the nutrients that are meant for nourishing the muscles.

Do you take a B-complex w/biotin and folate?

Girlie
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Date Joined May 2014
Total Posts : 26270
   Posted 8/11/2017 7:41 PM (GMT -6)   
I have the muscle wasting - in my hands, feet, arms, legs,butt, etc.

Mt arms, legs and butt have gotten better with treatment, but my hands and feet are looking bad still.

I think it's also collagen - not just muscle.
Moderator, Lyme Forum
Symp started April/2013; Buhner's Lyme May 15-July24/14; Igenex pos. July 3/14
Doxy: July 4-Aug.24/14;Zithro July26-Aug24/14; Amox + Proben. Aug. 29/14;
added biaxin Sept. 26/14
Disc. amox,added Ceftin Nov. 20th.;
Disc. biaxin added Buhner bart herbs Dec/14;Jan/15 pulsing Tinda (w/ Ceftin);
Abx/herb break Apr-July/15; July-mino; Aug. added Rif;
Nov./15 mino - to biaxi

RedLabel
Regular Member


Date Joined Feb 2017
Total Posts : 114
   Posted 8/12/2017 2:16 AM (GMT -6)   
Me too. Same as girlie with also collagen. My skin is wrinkling on hands and legs
Lyme, CPN, Yersinia, Coxsackie, CMV and Bartonella after LLMD visit.
CD57 of 0

Started treatment in May 2017

mareish
Regular Member


Date Joined Mar 2017
Total Posts : 133
   Posted 8/12/2017 3:58 AM (GMT -6)   
Same as RedLabel, unfortunately. It is not at all attractive.

dacarte3
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Date Joined Feb 2016
Total Posts : 1489
   Posted 8/12/2017 6:58 AM (GMT -6)   
Hey Traci, you are not alone. I experience the same thing in various places.

However, like Girlie said it's most likely more collagen loss than muscle. I know personally because I work out almost daily and I can still build and grow muscle.

The human hand does have muscle, but the muscles are not big, like say your biceps or thighs. So what happens is you lose the collagen that is laying on the top of the muscles and then your hand (or where ever the problem area is) looks smaller and you "think" it's muscle loss.

The reason why us lymies notice it more first in our hands is because of this reason. Other areas of your body probably has collagen loss as well but because other parts of the body has more fat and/or muscle it's not quite as noticeable.

For us lymies this significant collagen loss is most noticeable in places where it is mostly collagen. That being the back of hands, feet, major joints (knees, elbows, wrist, ankles), even the face.

Also like mcspike mention a good collagen supplement with Biotin and collagen peptides does help. I'm one month in and I do see improvement in some problem areas, but not all (yet). But hey improvement is improvement is improvement at the end of the day.

Hopefully it will continue to improve as the root cause (lyme) is treated successfully.
Positive for Lyme (Igenex), Ehrlichia (Igenex), and Mycoplasma (Labcorp)

ABX Treatment: 03/2016-04/2016
Buhner Protocol for Lyme and Mycoplasma: May 2016 - Dec. 2016

07/2017: Enjoyed a good 6 months symptom free. Relapsed. Back on herbs and abx.

dacarte3
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Date Joined Feb 2016
Total Posts : 1489
   Posted 8/12/2017 7:02 AM (GMT -6)   
Girlie said...

Mt arms, legs and butt have gotten better with treatment, but my hands and feet are looking bad still.



Yes the farthest extremities seem to be hit the hardest and is the most stubborn to improve.

bluelyme
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Date Joined Nov 2015
Total Posts : 4383
   Posted 8/12/2017 11:15 AM (GMT -6)   
To stop this wasting i believe very aggressive lyme and bart treatment is needed ..nerves can heal but it takes a while if ever ...my strength is there but meat hasnt returned check out this guys hands and he probably thought 1 month of roceph stopped it... jnnp.bmj.com/content/63/2/257.full

Girlie
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Date Joined May 2014
Total Posts : 26270
   Posted 8/12/2017 11:55 AM (GMT -6)   
bluelyme said...
To stop this wasting i believe very aggressive lyme and bart treatment is needed ..nerves can heal but it takes a while if ever ...my strength is there but meat hasnt returned check out this guys hands and he probably thought 1 month of roceph stopped it... jnnp.bmj.com/content/63/2/257.full


dang you Blue! I already saw that picture....don't wanna see it again...lol.
(makes my nervous system act up)
Moderator, Lyme Forum
Symp started April/2013; Buhner's Lyme May 15-July24/14; Igenex pos. July 3/14
Doxy: July 4-Aug.24/14;Zithro July26-Aug24/14; Amox + Proben. Aug. 29/14;
added biaxin Sept. 26/14
Disc. amox,added Ceftin Nov. 20th.;
Disc. biaxin added Buhner bart herbs Dec/14;Jan/15 pulsing Tinda (w/ Ceftin);
Abx/herb break Apr-July/15; July-mino; Aug. added Rif;
Nov./15 mino - to biaxi

astroman
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Date Joined Mar 2014
Total Posts : 3704
   Posted 8/12/2017 1:12 PM (GMT -6)   
dacarte3- thats interesting how you can still workout daily and build muscle, as you know many cant. If they do, injury seems to happen since the muscle wont recover properly. I was one no matter what I tried.

Now that I'm healing, (or healed and in repair mode) I can do this again and my strength is going up at an incredible rate of which I've never experienced in my adult life before (since late 80's). I had ok and bad lyme years in the past, all was not a loss.

Girlie
Forum Moderator


Date Joined May 2014
Total Posts : 26270
   Posted 8/12/2017 1:22 PM (GMT -6)   
astroman said...
dacarte3- thats interesting how you can still workout daily and build muscle, as you know many cant. If they do, injury seems to happen since the muscle wont recover properly. I was one no matter what I tried.

Now that I'm healing, (or healed and in repair mode) I can do this again and my strength is going up at an incredible rate of which I've never experienced in my adult life before (since late 80's). I had ok and bad lyme years in the past, all was not a loss.



I have also got muscle back...you don't need to be completely healed for that to happen.
Nothing was happening prior to treatment, but approximately 6 months (or maybe it was a year) after starting treatment, I was able to get some muscle back.


And DaCarte was in remission...unfortunately he relapsed recently.
Moderator, Lyme Forum
Symp started April/2013; Buhner's Lyme May 15-July24/14; Igenex pos. July 3/14
Doxy: July 4-Aug.24/14;Zithro July26-Aug24/14; Amox + Proben. Aug. 29/14;
added biaxin Sept. 26/14
Disc. amox,added Ceftin Nov. 20th.;
Disc. biaxin added Buhner bart herbs Dec/14;Jan/15 pulsing Tinda (w/ Ceftin);
Abx/herb break Apr-July/15; July-mino; Aug. added Rif;
Nov./15 mino - to biaxi

bluelyme
Veteran Member


Date Joined Nov 2015
Total Posts : 4383
   Posted 8/12/2017 2:33 PM (GMT -6)   
Mah bad girlie its just one of the only papers linking borellia to lower motor neuron disease ...when it happens the buggers are in your nerves i just wanted people to be aware .

and we know 1 month of abx doesnt kill it ...on the rebuililding acetlycholine in royal jelly is the the same sbstance octipi and lizards use to regrow limbs and tails ....high dose biotin is a ms trick to rebuild too

kill build kill some more ...imo

bluelyme
Veteran Member


Date Joined Nov 2015
Total Posts : 4383
   Posted 8/12/2017 3:19 PM (GMT -6)   
Pluswhich you know me girlie i am not a sugercoating vanilla softy...truth need he told when i saw what this zombie horror freakshow crap was doing to my body and no doc would help it was time to get serious about treatment ...
wasting is a sign of malabsorbtion ,inflammmation so bad cellular damage is being done and pathogens on the nerves ...cmv ,bart erlichia and myco may all play into the mix with borrielia...
imo these extreme cases need to be handled like dave martz handles them herx hard but not too hard to cause more damage with dead bugs...but immediate hardcore tx is necessary and may be longterm if not life long ...

dacarte3
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Date Joined Feb 2016
Total Posts : 1489
   Posted 8/12/2017 9:24 PM (GMT -6)   
Girlie said...
astroman said...
dacarte3- thats interesting how you can still workout daily and build muscle, as you know many cant. If they do, injury seems to happen since the muscle wont recover properly. I was one no matter what I tried.

Now that I'm healing, (or healed and in repair mode) I can do this again and my strength is going up at an incredible rate of which I've never experienced in my adult life before (since late 80's). I had ok and bad lyme years in the past, all was not a loss.



I have also got muscle back...you don't need to be completely healed for that to happen.
Nothing was happening prior to treatment, but approximately 6 months (or maybe it was a year) after starting treatment, I was able to get some muscle back.


And DaCarte was in remission...unfortunately he relapsed recently.


I agree Girlie. You don't need to be fully healed to rebuild muscle. Now, you probably can't be really sick with lyme either.

But with treatment and during healing I believe you can.

Since I "relapsed" I don't like to considered myself to have "once healed". 6 months isn't long enough for me to give myself that much credit. Maybe 6 years and we can talk.

But the problem areas are stubborn and much slower to rebuild than the non-problem areas.

Treatment is definitely key (duh, right?). Since I've been back in treatment I'm making more progress.

Edit:

Actually, I'm 100% certain you can. I saw this doc on a women with lyme. She was soooo skinny, like a holocaust victim. After she greatly healed (but not necessarily 100% symptom free), she got back into fitness and looks awesome and healthy. So she's living proof.

Post Edited (dacarte3) : 8/12/2017 9:27:39 PM (GMT-6)


Girlie
Forum Moderator


Date Joined May 2014
Total Posts : 26270
   Posted 8/12/2017 10:00 PM (GMT -6)   
mareish said...
Same as RedLabel, unfortunately. It is not at all attractive.


Oh I gave up on "attractive " a while ago. shakehead
Moderator, Lyme Forum
Symp started April/2013; Buhner's Lyme May 15-July24/14; Igenex pos. July 3/14
Doxy: July 4-Aug.24/14;Zithro July26-Aug24/14; Amox + Proben. Aug. 29/14;
added biaxin Sept. 26/14
Disc. amox,added Ceftin Nov. 20th.;
Disc. biaxin added Buhner bart herbs Dec/14;Jan/15 pulsing Tinda (w/ Ceftin);
Abx/herb break Apr-July/15; July-mino; Aug. added Rif;
Nov./15 mino - to biaxi

mpost
Veteran Member


Date Joined Feb 2015
Total Posts : 1064
   Posted 8/12/2017 11:32 PM (GMT -6)   
it's both collagen and muscle. muscle mass is lost when the nerves that trigger its contraction get damaged. the nerves no longer transmit the same amount of electricity to it and the parts that dont get enough, vanish.

another reason is severe protein dietary deficit. it is important to eat proteins when sick with a chronic infection, the immune system being active all the time consumes a lot of energy. good idea to take hemp protein daily.... or whey if u are ok with dairy.

dacarte3
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Date Joined Feb 2016
Total Posts : 1489
   Posted 8/13/2017 7:48 AM (GMT -6)   
mpost said...

the immune system being active all the time consumes a lot of energy.


Yes. So it's coming from many fronts. Lyme damaging the body. Lyme scavenging nutrients. And the body going into it's energy reserves as it's constantly working in full force.

It's why I changed my diet. Diets that get promoted to be lyme friendly is paleo/primal diet or diets even more strict than that. I did these diets and I didn't feel "strong". Felt and looked dainty and frail.

Switched the diet to just process sugar free and gluten free, everything else is fair game.

Doubled my caloric intake needed for my gender and height. Exceeded the grams of protein needed to build muscle (not maintain muscle mass but build it). A person needs to consume 1 gram of protein for ever 1 pound (0.45kg) a person weighs (or should weigh based on gender and height) to build and grow additional muscle mass.

So I just eat tons now, take a high protein supplement and workout (non-cardio) and its definitely helped how and I looked and feel.

The down side is, the areas where collagen loss is hit the hardest for lymies (joints) have no muscle, so working out doesn't really improve these problems areas unfortunately.

astroman
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Date Joined Mar 2014
Total Posts : 3704
   Posted 8/13/2017 3:30 PM (GMT -6)   
dacarte3 said...
mpost said...

the immune system being active all the time consumes a lot of energy.


Doubled my caloric intake needed for my gender and height. Exceeded the grams of protein needed to build muscle (not maintain muscle mass but build it). A person needs to consume 1 gram of protein for ever 1 pound (0.45kg) a person weighs (or should weigh based on gender and height) to build and grow additional muscle mass.
.


Thats a lot of protein. I have been using a little more protein than usual(mostly pea protein- it agrees with my gut), sometimes 20grms before and after working out (gym) and cardio (pedal), but not near 175 grams a day. Its said only 20 grams is absorb-able in one meal. How much time one meal is supposed to be is the mystery. It would be interesting and slightly expensive to try 175 grams of protein a day.

Im still doing 90% paleo, eating pretty basic whole foods and feel pretty good. All these "paleo" recepies out there really arnt paleo LOL. For me, leaving out milk is huge, sugar is second. I just about OD on a watermelon a few weeks ago - way to much sugar in those, gut didnt like it - yes its paleo, but way to much sugar for 5 days.

Whatever the reason, I'm gaining strength like crazy without much carbs (no pasta) or calories - but I need a lot of sleep.

dacarte3
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Date Joined Feb 2016
Total Posts : 1489
   Posted 8/13/2017 8:37 PM (GMT -6)   
astroman said...
dacarte3 said...
mpost said...

the immune system being active all the time consumes a lot of energy.


Doubled my caloric intake needed for my gender and height. Exceeded the grams of protein needed to build muscle (not maintain muscle mass but build it). A person needs to consume 1 gram of protein for ever 1 pound (0.45kg) a person weighs (or should weigh based on gender and height) to build and grow additional muscle mass.
.


Thats a lot of protein. I have been using a little more protein than usual(mostly pea protein- it agrees with my gut), sometimes 20grms before and after working out (gym) and cardio (pedal), but not near 175 grams a day.

Whatever the reason, I'm gaining strength like crazy without much carbs (no pasta) or calories - but I need a lot of sleep.


That's great man!

Yes the grams of protein thing is what all the fitness sites say (but I'm no expert). I'm happy you are gaining strength.

I feel strong and sturdy versus weak and frail like in the past.

I just need to figure out how to remedy the collagen lost in and around the joints. I really hope it returns when the lyme load is greatly reduced.

astroman
Veteran Member


Date Joined Mar 2014
Total Posts : 3704
   Posted 8/13/2017 10:02 PM (GMT -6)   
dacarte3- I'll read up on the protein amount, maybe up it some more a little at a time to see what difference it might make.

Just got a body fat test and I'm going to see how strong I can get while increasing muscle density vs fat ratio. Now over 50, this is a little more complicated than in my past. But, what I assumed wasn't possible anymore due to lyme and my age, seems more and more possible everyday now - but I'm careful about it LOL, as it still seems to good to be true.

Good your feeling strong, that means sooner or later you will surprise yourself like I am. That weak feeling really sucks the life out of you.

Q)How did you figure the collagen loss?

Jinna
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Date Joined May 2017
Total Posts : 692
   Posted 8/14/2017 8:17 AM (GMT -6)   
I'm still knocking on wood, but I got 5 pounds back!

During lyme, i could not take those bone broths (they made me puke).

Lately, I am able and I love the stuff.

I don't know what is solving my problem, that is about 10 year old.

Every 2 years, I lost about 1 pound, and could not get it back. When I could, I lost it back again....

My lyme dr put me on aminoacids, but I did not take them for long. They did not solve the problem.

Recently, I'm on energetically imprinted minerals, by Vital Force and other substances from them.

I wonder if that was not what made the shift...

I still have to see if my condition remains.

But gaining 5 pounds in the last 2 months is something that NEVER happened before, in the last 20 years, for sure.

during lyme, I suffered from food allergies, and that made food absorption much harder. Plus GI lyme symptoms, fatigue, etc. No way I could gain my weight back then.

But when lyme was gone, I still kept loosing weight, much slower, but surely.

I guess (just a guess) that mineral absorption is linked to nutrient absorption in general. When there is absorption problem (due to GI problems, for example), it is hard to solve the absorption deficiency.

I had an extra problem to that: my body rejected some important minerals (such as zinc), as though they were poisonous.

That zinc problem has been my main battle in the last 8 years, even after lyme was gone.

The only zinc I can absorb, so far, is Vital Force zinc, which is not 'real' zinc.

But I think that is helping me solve my muscle loss problem because I started on it about 2 months ago, exactly when I started gaining weight again!

------------------------------
Bb loves collagen. It does not like the blood, or what is found in the blood, but it loves collagen.

That is why it forces your immune system to react with inflammation, to break up tissues, so that Bb can eat up small pieces of collagen among other things.

Buhner explains a bit about that collagen-consumption in Healing Lyme.
If you guys have joint pain due to Bb, you have collagen loss in the joints.
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