Swollen/tender glands in lower neck..herx?

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Tick41
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Date Joined Feb 2016
Total Posts : 304
   Posted 10/5/2017 10:02 AM (GMT -6)   
anybody get swollen/tender glands while herxing? Started a new herbal tincture last Monday called PHYTOLYMEX and have been noticing swollen glands in my lower neck down by my shoulders/trap area.
I assume its related to herxing and there is an herb in that tincture I'm on called "Poke root" which works as a lymph cleanser so I assume that could be a factor.

Let me know your thoughts! especially people familiar with herbs smile

Pirouette
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   Posted 10/5/2017 11:41 AM (GMT -6)   
Hi Tick41 -

I'm unfamiliar with PHYTOLYMEX but here are the ingredients to make it a little easier for those who have more knowledge on herbs than I:

Isatis (Isatis tinctora), Plantain (Plentago asoatica), Polygonum (Polygonatum sibiricum), Codonopsis (Codonopsitis pilosula), Mu dan pi (Paeonia Suffruticosa), Chuan xiong (Ligusticum chaun xiong), Chrysanthemum (Chrysanthemum morifolium), Coltsfoot (Tussilaginis farfarae), Elecampane (Inula helenium), Poke root (Phytolacca decandra), Ground Ivy (Nepeta hederacea)

Swollen glands are pretty common with lymph support at first but should resolve with ongoing doses. You might want to reduce the amount you're taking so that your body can "catch up". Dry brushing and lymph massage can really help but be sure to read up on the proper techniques first. And warm compresses can help with the discomfort.

Another thing that might be happening is that you are triggering a high viral load with your treatment so if you are aware of or are suspicious of high or reactivated viruses (also very common with Lyme & Co dx) you might want to pause and address this or your immune system can easily becoe overwhelmed.

Hope that's helpful -

-p
Lyme Moderator
Chronic late-stage lyme—likely infected in '00; Clinically dx Mar'14 w/ Babs, Fry Labs+ Bart-like, CDC+ Bb. First treated 4-5 viruses & GI/immune. Herbal antimicrobials in May; IV port-started Rocephin in Nov; added vancomycin Mar'16;
DETOX: Pinella/Burbur/Parsley/Milk thistle/Burdock/Red root; Samento/Banderol/Enula; JK/Turmeric; BFM-1; antifung; many many supps; cholestyramine!

Tick41
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Date Joined Feb 2016
Total Posts : 304
   Posted 10/6/2017 7:07 AM (GMT -6)   
bumping myself as I haven't been getting many responses on my posts lately...
Lyme symptoms since 2013. Positive IGM bands 23/41 through LLMD August 2016. Myco positive,EBV and other viruses as well.
Currently taking herbs for treatment of lyme. full on keto diet currently.
Herbs- B-Vital (energy),AB5T (adrenal support) Mixed EFAS (inflammation /chronic fatigue), PHYTOLYMEX (lyme recovery), Yeast #8 nosode (candida), methylfolate (mthfr),Lexapro (will get off soon)

PeteZa
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   Posted 10/6/2017 9:17 AM (GMT -6)   
Tick, I had headpain that I now am totally convinced was lymph related. My clavicle area was tender from lymph nodes.

I did Red Root tincture for this. I started low dose and went slowly up.

I also did lymph massage. Now Heather on the video said to do it 50 times. I did that and was so sick. It was like I had broken the dam and all heck broke loose. So, I highly recommend doing it 10 times and see how you do and slowly move up on it.

It is easy and you can do it at a stop light. LOL

Hope this is helpful. It really was a lifesaver for me.

/www.youtube.com/watch?v=QA-wi0d7-Ro
____________

Good Article

BabsBunny
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Date Joined Mar 2017
Total Posts : 302
   Posted 10/6/2017 9:31 AM (GMT -6)   
my neck is constantly swollen and once in a while my armpits get painful. Lymphs all the way. There's a lot of junk to get drained out.
Lyme, Babesia, Bartonella. Symptoms began 5/2016, didn't start treatment until 9/2016. Slow but steady recovery.

*twitch twitch*

Tick41
Regular Member


Date Joined Feb 2016
Total Posts : 304
   Posted 10/6/2017 10:14 AM (GMT -6)   
Thanks guys! will check out that video
Lyme symptoms since 2013. Positive IGM bands 23/41 through LLMD August 2016. Myco positive,EBV and other viruses as well.
Currently taking herbs for treatment of lyme. full on keto diet currently.
Herbs- B-Vital (energy),AB5T (adrenal support) Mixed EFAS (inflammation /chronic fatigue), PHYTOLYMEX (lyme recovery), Yeast #8 nosode (candida), methylfolate (mthfr),Lexapro (will get off soon)

MAF249
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Date Joined Jan 2017
Total Posts : 119
   Posted 10/6/2017 12:24 PM (GMT -6)   
I wouldn't directly link it to a herx. There are a lot of reasons why lymph nodes get swollen. Rapid die off of bacteria is one reason. Also it could be that your new herb is stimulating the immune system. It could also be a mild allergic reaction to the herb.

We should all be more cautious when assuming Herx for a default explaination. Herxing is more rare than most people assume. Lyme bacteria grow slowly. with constant herbal or antibiotic treatment the amount of bacteria that can be killed off in large numbers isnt there anymore.

I also have swollen lymph nodes and I am not treating. My lymph nodes fluctuate through the day, week, month. sometimes I do nothing different and it gets worse. usually a stress related reaction like a busy day at school/work will cause them to flare up.

Tick41
Regular Member


Date Joined Feb 2016
Total Posts : 304
   Posted 10/6/2017 12:27 PM (GMT -6)   
Ive noticed it about a week after starting the new tincture that is why I assumed a herx! but yes that post makes sense. Thanks for your input MAF
Lyme symptoms since 2013. Positive IGM bands 23/41 through LLMD August 2016. Myco positive,EBV and other viruses as well.
Currently taking herbs for treatment of lyme. full on keto diet currently.
Herbs- B-Vital (energy),AB5T (adrenal support) Mixed EFAS (inflammation /chronic fatigue), PHYTOLYMEX (lyme recovery), Yeast #8 nosode (candida), methylfolate (mthfr),Lexapro (will get off soon)

MAF249
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Date Joined Jan 2017
Total Posts : 119
   Posted 10/6/2017 1:16 PM (GMT -6)   
I may make a new thread about Herxing soon. It seems the word gets tossed around too much. This came to my attention when I saw a few pages no facebook that were mocking people who use the word and they put it in a comedy skit on comedy central or some tv show.

Then I thought about it and I realized that, Yes! people actually are using the word for every single situation they experience. If we want to be taken seriously as a Lyme community then we should also take our knowledge seriously.

Basically a Herx happens at the beginning of a new treatment, usally starting (30mins-2hrs) after you take the first dose of a substance.... after that, the majority of the bacteria are killed and the liver and kidneys have processed that material. There is much more to It. I will probably make a thread later.

MAF249
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Date Joined Jan 2017
Total Posts : 119
   Posted 10/6/2017 1:18 PM (GMT -6)   
I forgot to mention a herx lasts about 2 hours maximum.

Tick41
Regular Member


Date Joined Feb 2016
Total Posts : 304
   Posted 10/6/2017 2:10 PM (GMT -6)   
I've heard it can start anytime from immediately after starting a new medicine up until a week after starting. That's from an LLMD..
Lyme symptoms since 2013. Positive IGM bands 23/41 through LLMD August 2016. Myco positive,EBV and other viruses as well.
Currently taking herbs for treatment of lyme. full on keto diet currently.
Herbs- B-Vital (energy),AB5T (adrenal support) Mixed EFAS (inflammation /chronic fatigue), PHYTOLYMEX (lyme recovery), Yeast #8 nosode (candida), methylfolate (mthfr),Lexapro (will get off soon)

Pirouette
Veteran Member


Date Joined Mar 2014
Total Posts : 5813
   Posted 10/6/2017 3:30 PM (GMT -6)   
MAF -
I agree with a lot of what you posted.

And I'm sure "herxing" gets misused.

However, I could also point to numerous modes of mockings FaceBook, in general. So I wouldn't put too much stock in that kind of noise. Remember who owns 96% of our ENTIRE mainstream media... about 5 entities/organizations that are all linked to maybe 3 people. Our MSM today is simply a mouthpiece for corporations and ANYTHING to do with medicine is controlled almost entirely by Big Pharma.... ad nauseum. So a lot of this so-called "entertainment" poking fun at our alternative medical world is absolutely by corporate design.

Also, a "2 hr max" time limit on herxing is something I've never heard of, nor does it sound logical. Your body takes a lot longer than 2 hrs to process, metabolize, detox and other processes, etc. required for many, many, many things we put into it ---fill in the blank. Also, people are doing much more with their protocols than just the microbial or pathogen assault - whatever you want to call Lyme & Co tx.

Granted, the term may have been co-opted to embrace a larger context for a response to treatment, but medicine, science evolves.

But I am interested in whatever information you can share.

-p
Lyme Moderator
Chronic late-stage lyme—likely infected in '00; Clinically dx Mar'14 w/ Babs, Fry Labs+ Bart-like, CDC+ Bb. First treated 4-5 viruses & GI/immune. Herbal antimicrobials in May; IV port-started Rocephin in Nov; added vancomycin Mar'16;
DETOX: Pinella/Burbur/Parsley/Milk thistle/Burdock/Red root; Samento/Banderol/Enula; JK/Turmeric; BFM-1; antifung; many many supps; cholestyramine!

PeteZa
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Date Joined Jul 2015
Total Posts : 8946
   Posted 10/6/2017 3:40 PM (GMT -6)   
hmmm, this article says herx can last a couple of hours to a couple of weeks.

www.tiredoflyme.com/the-herxheimer-reaction.html

I would be interested to read your sources.
____________

Good Article

Tick41
Regular Member


Date Joined Feb 2016
Total Posts : 304
   Posted 10/6/2017 4:39 PM (GMT -6)   
Quite ignorant comment to say herxes happen immediately and only last two hours lol. Would also like to hear your sources
Lyme symptoms since 2013. Positive IGM bands 23/41 through LLMD August 2016. Myco positive,EBV and other viruses as well.
Currently taking herbs for treatment of lyme. full on keto diet currently.
Herbs- B-Vital (energy),AB5T (adrenal support) Mixed EFAS (inflammation /chronic fatigue), PHYTOLYMEX (lyme recovery), Yeast #8 nosode (candida), methylfolate (mthfr),Lexapro (will get off soon)

MAF249
Regular Member


Date Joined Jan 2017
Total Posts : 119
   Posted 10/7/2017 3:24 AM (GMT -6)   
The statement I made was very General. I will follow up with clarification later, ive been busy all day, sorry guys.

So, generally when a bacteriacidal substance is ingested it takes ama certain amount of time to reach peak blood plasma concentrations anf starts to koll bacteria quickly.

For example, say you have a sinus infection. you go to the doctor and they give you an antobiotic called penicillin. penicillin is an antibiotic that kills bacteria. Some antibiotics such as doxycycline or any tetracycline antibiotic do not kill bacteria, these are called bacteriostatic. This means that they prevent the growth of bacteria.

Bacteriostatic antibiotics will not be as likely to cause a herx because the bacteria remains alive until it does a natural.

On the other hand... bacteriacidal anibiotucs kill bacteria on contact. This is much more likely to cause a herx reaction. The way to think of this is... before you take the pill you have 100% of the bacteria in your system. Swallow the pill... 30 minutes pr so pass while the pill dissolves and gets absorbed into the body. This is the time when the herx would start to be noticeable.

So time passes and your body breaks down the leftover pieces of bacteria and this causes inflammation among other thing. Lets say that 25% of the bacteria is killed. Also, at this point the antibiotic levels in your blood start to drop along with the broken down bacteria and the herx begins to calm down.

Now it is time for the next pill. What happens here is very important. Now youre starting with 75%of the total bacteria because you have killed some from the first pill. Not only is there less bacteria to kill but the level of antibiotic in your system will be higher because the first pill has not been completely eliminated.

With only 50% of the bacteria to kill this time... the herx will be more mild. Although this might be argued because of the higher level of medication in the body.

Now 3rd pill... 25% bacteria left, higher med levels
4th, pill... 12.5% bacteria left
5th pill... 6.25..... etc...etc....etc

Now this is still a simplified version of what is going on but at least hopefully people can understand when a herx happens and why. A herx happens early on when starting a new treatment. Side effects from the medication can manifest later on in treatment as the level of medication starts to build up in your system.

It is important to know whats going on and why so that you can adjust your medication with more confidence and good reason and understanding.

MAF249
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Date Joined Jan 2017
Total Posts : 119
   Posted 10/7/2017 3:31 AM (GMT -6)   
Sorry for the errors. It's very late and im tired and not feeling well

PeteZa
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Date Joined Jul 2015
Total Posts : 8946
   Posted 10/7/2017 10:09 AM (GMT -6)   
More articles on herxing:

www.lemonandlyme.com/Articles/Expect/Herx.php

Unfortunately, recognizing a herx is not always easy. A rise in symptoms can mean any number of things. Sometimes it's due to chemical exposure, allergies, medication side effects, or things that formerly seemed trivial like temperature change, weather, or even the phase of the moon. Herxes can even be symptoms you've never experienced before.

The truth is, the best way to figure out what is and isn't a herx is to keep a good, detailed Lyme journal. Keep track of which symptoms get bad and when, and journal what's going on in your environment. Herxes don't always happen instantaneously. They can occur hours, days or even a couple weeks later. When beginning a new medication, you want to pay close attention to your symptoms for a while.


I never did herx. I always say that because mine were never treatment induced. HOWEVER, I did get a rise in symptoms during the full moon. I have always been affected by the moon even pre-lyme. Maybe my body just goes through a natural cleanse each month. I certainly feel that I do this each spring and fall. I have always attributed this to barometric changes. I am susceptible to them obviously.

Most notably when I leave my home at 4,000 feet and go to the 0 elevation of the ocean. So as the moon waxes and wanes I think I feel the barometric pressure of it. Then along comes seasonal change - cold to spring and I feel that. Then hot to fall and I feel that. Always have and probably always will.

When I had lyme - oh my gosh - at first I just thought I was more sensitive because of lyme, but now in hindsight, I believe that lyme was just stirred up more with barometric changes.

Anyway MAF249, I'm sorry that I disagree with your idea of the herxing. I have seen too many that are in a stressful situation and that brings on a herx. Too many that ate sugar and that brought on a herx. I don't believe it is all antibiotic induced. But, I have been wrong. I'd just really like to see more of a basis for your opinion. Not trying to stir it up with you, honestly. We just want to make sure that the people that read this are well informed with facts.

Edited to add - I do believe that antibiotics can cause a herx. Not opposing this at all. The time line, I do believe can be longer than immediately induced.

MAF249
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Date Joined Jan 2017
Total Posts : 119
   Posted 10/7/2017 12:44 PM (GMT -6)   
The issues is that a Herx is a specific thing. This is directed towards anyone reading this thread. present or future.

A Jarisch–Herxheimer reaction is a reaction to endotoxin-like products released by the death of harmful microorganisms within the body during antibiotic treatment.

That is the only event that the word Herx should be used to describe. It also hold true for Herbs too because herbs can be antibacterial.


Unfortunately, recognizing a herx is not always easy. A rise in symptoms can mean any number of things. Sometimes it's due to chemical exposure, allergies, medication side effects, or things that formerly seemed trivial like temperature change, weather, or even the phase of the moon. Herxes can even be symptoms you've never experienced before.
PeteZa said...


"A rise in symptoms can mean a number of things" - Yes this is true. here are examples

"Sometimes it's due to chemical exposure" - Yes, depending on the chemical the symptoms will differ. here are a list of chemicals that cause their own symptoms

Antibacterials- Cause Herxs in certain cercumstances... not related to side effects which are as follows:

Dizzyness:
not a herx EX(minocycline, doxy, rifampicin, Jap Knotweed, etc.)

Upset Stomach:
not a herx EX(doxycylcline, amoxicillin, Jap. Knotweed, etc.)

Rash, Burning, Sneezing, Itchy Eyes:
Not Herx... but related specifically to a raise in histamine caused by any part of a medication. (allergic reaction)
This allergic reaction may be caused by; the substance itself, pill additives, pill coatings, fillers, binders, etc.

Alcohol tinctures; can cause burning upon ingenstion, upset stomach, dizzyness in high amounts, mood changes(none of this is a herx) and often increase over time with higher doses




"medication side effects" - This is probably one of the hardest reactions to distinguish from a Herx. But!... because we know that Herxing is due to a large die off of bacteria... We can then be confident to say that "if the effects continue past one week of use... what we are experiencing is a side effect of the drug itself." The amount of bacteria after a week of effective treatment will be close to nothing so there is nothing left to cause a Herx past one week of treatment. This holds true for all bacteria: MRSA, Staph, Lyme, TB, etc, etc.



"temperature change, weather, or even the phase of the moon."-

Although everything listed in this statement above can have an effect on the body, mind, mood... none of this will cause a large dieoff of bacteria therefore none of this should ever be called a Herx by any means. Besides large temperature changes, as in Hyperthermia treatment, changes in climate will never cause dieoff of bacteria within your body. I wish this were true. We would all be cured of Lyme more easily if the weather could cause a Herx.

The phases of the moon may cause behavioral changes, this has been proven. Behavioral changes may effect how you physically feel but It will never cause a Herx. Bacteria cannot know what phase the moon is in so they would not be effected by it.




Lastly

"When beginning a new medication, you want to pay close attention to your symptoms for a while."- This is very true. Anytime a new substance is added to the body you should pay close attention and use all the knowledge you have to decipher what is happening(keep a journal if you desire): example:

1. I take the medicine. within 30 minutes, and over the next hour, I experience acute flu like symptoms, slight fever, swelling of lymph nodes and body aches. this seems to go away after 1-3 hours. I AM possibly having a Herx reaction.

2. I take the medication and immediately have an upset stomach or feel dizzy. This is not a Herx because the medication has not had time to get to the bacteria in my body yet. I should look for other explanations to determine that I am not harming my body somehow. I should call my doctor if symptoms worsen or continue for 3 or more days.

3. I have been taking this medication for 4 days or more and It seems to be building up symptoms/adverse effects/side effects....This is not a herx this may be an increase of side effects due to a buildup of the medication in my body over time. I should think about what other options are available for dosing to avaoid damage to my body and so that I can get the most out of my medication.

Post Edited (MAF249) : 10/7/2017 12:52:40 PM (GMT-6)


MAF249
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Date Joined Jan 2017
Total Posts : 119
   Posted 10/7/2017 1:05 PM (GMT -6)   
"Too many that ate sugar and that brought on a herx. I don't believe it is all antibiotic induced."- PeteZa



From... (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC106876/)...

"B. burgdorferi did not exhibit any observable chemotaxis to common sugars or amino acids"


chemotaxis- definition- movement of a motile cell or organism, or part of one, in a direction corresponding to a gradient of increasing or decreasing concentration of a particular substance.

Therefor this proves that Lyme does not "directly" have a change in behavior from sugar



But we do know that sugar in the body does increase inflammation. When you add this on to the existing inflammation from Lyme you would get a worsening of symptoms. Sugar by itself would never cause a dieoff of bacteria in large numbers (Herx).

Lapis_29
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Date Joined Sep 2017
Total Posts : 276
   Posted 10/7/2017 4:32 PM (GMT -6)   
yes, had same thing. Applied DMSO topically, lymph glands drained and swelling went down within days.

here is a thread that talks about it.

https://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=17014.90
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