Dormant/latent infections?

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Kaitlan
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Date Joined Mar 2017
Total Posts : 43
   Posted 10/8/2017 10:18 PM (GMT -6)   
Looking for more information about dormant infections.
I understand that this is when an infection is considered not active and that it's not causing symptoms.

But is the pathogen in a state of sleep where it does absolutely nothing?

Or is it still awake; just that it has been fought down to such a small bacteria load that it just kinda hides and doesn't try to thrive, thus it doesn't cause any symptoms?

MAF249
Regular Member


Date Joined Jan 2017
Total Posts : 119
   Posted 10/9/2017 3:14 AM (GMT -6)   
I'll give a quick post of what I do know and when I have some more time I will come back and add a little more information.

Basically it all depends on the infection. Mono Is a big one. Mono is cause by the EBV (virus) and 90% of people will have it by late adulthood, most show no signs although everyone lives with it for life. But... The worse the initial infection is then the worse symptims you have down the road.

Personally, when I got lyne disease I read about its effecys in latent infections and I decided to try taking valcyte to lower my levels of EBV. To my surprise its did take away some of my symptoms. Mainly lethargy, some other subtle changes.

Pirouette
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Date Joined Mar 2014
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   Posted 10/9/2017 9:38 AM (GMT -6)   
Hi Kaitlan -

Dormant state of an infection just means that it's not actively creating notable symptoms or changes in the body, perhaps not something the immune system is busy with. It can just be quiet or can be low volume. That terminology is used mainly to indicate that one is, in fact, infected with a particular pathogen (which can show up in testing) but that it might not be actively causing a problem.

Example: serology testing can measure "old" and "new" antibodies created against a pathogen. Generally, the old antibodies (IgG) suggest that an infection occurred once upon a time but that the body is not actively fighting it or it is not actively causing sx, the immune system is currently dominating it.

Antibodies your immune system has recently created (measured with IgM) often indicates an active infection that the immune system recognized and is currently engaged in fighting. Often, this can help you indicate if your immune system is healthy (it is functioning or you wouldn't be able to find recent antibodies) or perhaps is weak and is overwhelmed by the pathogen's activity (you are very ill, have many symptoms other than those created by the immune system activity).

For instance when you get a cold with runny nose, water eyes ---those are actually actions by the immune system to create inflammation in order to "boot" the pathogen out of your tissues. When you have the flu, sometimes your body creates a fever to try to kill off microbes. These are not necessarily sx created directly by the pathogen but instead, are created by the immune response to it.

For us Lymees - this IgG vs IgM is NOT a simple road map since the Bb microbe can disrupt normal immune function. The Lyme cartel maintains that positive IgG results don't indicate an active Lyme infection but this is simply false - there's no way to tell. Yet another reason why Lyme is a clinical dx.

I've also read this same confusion regarding some viral testing that isn't accurate along this IgG vs IgM lines. I understand that a little less but it must have to do with manipulation of the immune response.

-p
Lyme Moderator
Chronic late-stage lyme—likely infected in '00; Clinically dx Mar'14 w/ Babs, Fry Labs+ Bart-like, CDC+ Bb. First treated 4-5 viruses & GI/immune. Herbal antimicrobials in May; IV port-started Rocephin in Nov; added vancomycin Mar'16;
DETOX: Pinella/Burbur/Parsley/Milk thistle/Burdock/Red root; Samento/Banderol/Enula; JK/Turmeric; BFM-1; antifung; many many supps; cholestyramine!

Psilociraptor
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   Posted 10/9/2017 11:06 AM (GMT -6)   
This depends on what you're talking about. A pathogen can become dormant in which case it may still cause disease due to expressing inflammatory antigens. It is only dormant in the sense that it is not actively dividing and it's metabolism has been greatly reduced. On the other hand you can have asymptomatic disease which probably just has to do more with the pathogen load being small

Kaitlan
Regular Member


Date Joined Mar 2017
Total Posts : 43
   Posted 10/9/2017 12:11 PM (GMT -6)   
So if you're testing showed high IgGs for let's say EBV but normal IgMs, this would signify a dormant infection. So if it's not actively under attack by the immune system would the inflammatory antigens still have means to cause problems?

Pirouette
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Date Joined Mar 2014
Total Posts : 5813
   Posted 10/9/2017 12:18 PM (GMT -6)   
Psilo -

Can a pathogen living within a biofilm be dormant? Does the real estate make a difference?

Kaitlin -
Here is an interesting discussion about that very question regarding viruses and EBV. I'm not sure we ever reached a solid conclusion but generally, I think the EBV IgG vs IgM is also not entirely consistent with other infections. I think you can have IgG EBV antibodies with current flare or reactivated EBV. I just don't think the typical rules make a lot of sense based on what many patients who know their bodies and manifestations of EBV (like me) are actually experiencing. Many of us have had MDs tell us our very obvious EBV sx are probably not EBV since the IgM is normal. I think it's more complicated than that.

Viral loads:
www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=30&m=3618192

And more info on EBV:

Natural antivirals:
I LOVE the Beyond Balance IMNV-II and III (they have several herbs)
Olive leaf
Oil of oregano
Licorice
Houttuynia
Ginger
Chinese Skullcap
Astragalus
(there are many other herbs that have anti-viral properties)
Provocation Neutralization
Samento

*****

EBV:

Epstein-Barr virus (EBV) has been one of the infectious candidates implicated in RA for several years. In 2004, Balandraud et al .[8**] summarized the present knowledge of the poor control of EBV infection in patients with chronic RA. The patients have higher levels of anti-EBV antibodies than do healthy control individuals. In addition, EBV-specific cytotoxic T cell function, which is needed for the control of the chronic
infection, is defective in patients with RA; this probably causes the
increased viral load observed in the patients. There is no good evidence in favor of the primary infection as a trigger of subsequent RA.[9]

The authors concluded, however, that on the basis of the above-mentioned immune aberrations, EBV would be a good candidate to trigger chronic immune complex disease. In fact, in a cohort of 45 patients with recent-onset RA, the patients produced increased quantities of immunoglobulins when their peripheral blood lymphocytes were stimulated by EBV in vitro .[10]

The enhanced response to EBV predicted the development of joint destruction (erosions) in the patients during the subsequent 2-year follow-up.[10] This is indirect evidence of an abnormal response to EBV, and in the case of EBV infection in a patient during the incubation phase of RA, this would be an indicator of a more persistent and destructive form of arthritis.most common cause of hypothyroidism in the U.S.

Cytomegalovirus, EBV, and parvovirus B19 have been observed to persist in a latent form in the synovial fluid and synovial tissue of patients with RA and psoriatic arthritis, but less frequently in those with reactive arthritis (ReA).[11*,12]

The authors interpreted this as further evidence of a primary role of these viruses in autoimmune arthritis. Another explanation for the
persistence of viral antigens in the inflamed synovium was suggested by Stahl et al .,[13] who presented evidence of the presence of single or multiple viruses (cytomegalovirus, EBV, herpes simplex virus, parvovirus B19) in the synovial fluid or synovial tissue of patients with various forms of early arthritides, irrespective of the diagnosis. In the few trauma patients who were examined, no viruses were detected ( Table 2 ).[14]

Thus, a very logical explanation might be that the circulating inflammatory cells harboring the viral DNA of persisting viruses migrate as innocent bystanders into the inflamed synovium.report suggests a causal association with Hashimoto’s thyroiditis, the Other herpesvirus infections have previously been associated with acute arthritis. Varicella zoster virus has been demonstrated in the joint fluid in a patient with acute arthritis associated with chicken pox, and cytomegalovirus in the synovial fluid of a patient with acute shoulder
arthritis after kidney transplantation.[14,15] HHV-6A is the least commonly detected human herpes virus. A recent XXXXX(sorry - incomplete)

www.medscape.com/viewarticle/507250_2

There are a couple of products that test well against EBV and other viruses but nothing completely remedies it on her machine except the imprinted drops (frequencies put in a drainage remedy similar to a mild rife effect).

Lysine is very helpful as is a product called Total VirX. BioPure's Viressence is also helpful. American Neutriceuticals' I plex is anti
imflammatory and tests well against RA and EBV.

www.greatdanelady.com/articles/systemic_yeast_infections_in_humans.htm
www.brightsurf.com/news/headlines/33784/Epstein-Barr_a_virtual_look_at_a_vexing_virus.html
www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/2010/06/27/be-aware-of-the-epstein-barr-virus/
[urlhttp://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3033110/

EBV is hard on the liver, candida thrives on a weak liver

*****

And I'm not sure of the context within which you're asking the question, but getting virus titers under control is VERY important for Lyme & Co tx - it's pretty tough for the immune system to be available for Lyme if it's overwhelmed by high viral loads. I had a significant shift in my tx when I got on the right antiviral and the right doses.

Always - if you're taking antiviral Rx, please also protect liver/kidneys with milk thistle seed and/or burdock root. For those who are sensitive to those herbs, there are good liver cleanses you can do.

-p

Post Edited (Pirouette) : 10/9/2017 12:24:38 PM (GMT-6)


astroman
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Date Joined Mar 2014
Total Posts : 3704
   Posted 10/9/2017 4:02 PM (GMT -6)   
Pirouette- "candida thrives on a weak liver"

Interestsing, never heard this before. Are there links on this? It might explain things.

MAF249
Regular Member


Date Joined Jan 2017
Total Posts : 119
   Posted 10/9/2017 5:43 PM (GMT -6)   
astroman said...
Pirouette- "candida thrives on a weak liver"

Interestsing, never heard this before. Are there links on this? It might explain things.



Not to point out the obvious but every illness would be intensified by a weak liver. Candida is pretty clear to recognize if you have it. the symptoms are GI problems and also you can see it on the back of your tongue and in your mouth. Also Candida is not as common as people think it is.

Jasperilla
Regular Member


Date Joined Jan 2015
Total Posts : 152
   Posted 10/9/2017 5:51 PM (GMT -6)   
I had a latent Lyme infection for at least 7 years before it took me down. I had some "odd" things going on periodically, but nothing severe, and nothing I didn't blame on aging.

It wasn't until I got a Hep A vaccine, and then a few months later a stomach flu, that Lyme really took over.

The way it was explained to me was that my immune system was handling the infection for the most part until it couldn't do it any longer. So the bacteria weren't asleep, it's just that my immune system was stronger than the bacteria until something messed up my immune system enough that it could no longer keep up.

Not sure if that helps, but... smile

Pirouette
Veteran Member


Date Joined Mar 2014
Total Posts : 5813
   Posted 10/9/2017 9:46 PM (GMT -6)   
MAF249 said...
astroman said...
Pirouette- "candida thrives on a weak liver"

Interestsing, never heard this before. Are there links on this? It might explain things.


Not to point out the obvious but every illness would be intensified by a weak liver. Candida is pretty clear to recognize if you have it. the symptoms are GI problems and also you can see it on the back of your tongue and in your mouth. Also Candida is not as common as people think it is.
Actually, yeast/fungal overgrowth is pretty common. Candida albicans is actually found in every human, both in and on the body - much like basic bacteria. So an imbalance is also pretty common, particularly with the abundance of sugary and highly processed diets and the fact that most animal foods processed in this country are from animals pumped with antibiotics (80% of the abx sold in this country are sold to animal food producers). It won't take much for the average person to develop overgrowth. An unhealthy diet and stressful lifestyles and other environmental "toxins" we live with all contribute to weakened immune systems, which in turn allow overgrowth to flourish.

It's just that the conventional medical industry understands very little about overgrowth and fails to recognize it or understand how to treat it so it's not a highly diagnosed condition.

There are far more symptoms and complexities than coating on your tongue and GI problems - you might be interested to read my thread.

Yeast/fungal toxins create toxins that are particularly hard for the liver to metabolize and detox--acetaldehyde and ethanol, among others. Many alcoholics have a compounded problem because they've also created a self-perpetuating yeast/fungal overgrowth that demands the sugars from the alcohols and compounding the risk of fatty liver.

Getting around to Astroman's post -
I copied that info and that specific sentence from wherever I pulled that study, I think... it's been a couple yrs so I can't recall specifically. But here is a great article on liver function that was interesting. It mentioned that many w/ y/f overgrowth also have fatty liver problems but doesn't go into the relationship in detail (maybe one of the studies linked in the article does). And states that the cause/correlation is not currently understood. But that, of course, resolving the y/f issues can improve liver health:
/www.yeastinfection.org/fatty-liver-and-candida-infection-is-it-connected/

-p

Kaitlan
Regular Member


Date Joined Mar 2017
Total Posts : 43
   Posted 10/10/2017 9:54 AM (GMT -6)   
So there's a lot of evidence now that infections trigger autoimmune diseases though a few different mechanisms. I guess what I'm wondering is; do infections still have this ability when they are dormant?

Above psilociraptor said " A pathogen can become dormant in which case it may still cause disease due to expressing inflammatory antigens. It is only dormant in the sense that it is not actively dividing and it's metabolism has been greatly reduced." So if it's still expressing inflammatory antigens it would seem that the answer is yes, dormant infections can still cause autoimmunity. Am I understanding this correctly?

Jinna
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Date Joined May 2017
Total Posts : 692
   Posted 10/10/2017 11:57 AM (GMT -6)   
Psilociraptor said...
This depends on what you're talking about. A pathogen can become dormant in which case it may still cause disease due to expressing inflammatory antigens. It is only dormant in the sense that it is not actively dividing and it's metabolism has been greatly reduced. On the other hand you can have asymptomatic disease which probably just has to do more with the pathogen load being small


It's funny to see that more and more people understand that mechanism of immune system attacking non-dangerous entities (dormant pathogens seen as Antigens).

That was the big issue with chronic lyme: most doctors kept saying, infection is not there, BUT your body is still reacting AS THOUGH it were there.

They were not totally wrong, either, in the sense above : EVEN when pathogens go dormant, do not reproduce, a bit like a bear going in hibernation will not eat anything, barely consuming oxygen - the body can still THINK that they are active and continue causing inflammation.

For the patient, he will be still suffering immune reactions, like it was stipulated for patients suffering from 'post lyme disease' (= no more active infection, but active immune reactions).

Of course, they JUST missed the part that there were active infections for most patients.

but it's nice to see that the lyme community is evolving too, to wonder about such long lasting immune reactions.

Here in Europe, there is way to determine if your body reacts to Antigens of Borrelia burgdorferi or to 'actual' Borrelia burgdorferi (through bioresonance).

I have a few nosodes with Borrelia Antigens too, that I also treated, once active infection got dormant.
I did feel improvement in symptoms after treating Bb Antigens. Most people do feel.

What we treat then, is like the memory of Borrelia, to quieten the immune system...

I call my Bb dormant, because I feel no symptom from lyme anymore.

Unless these Antigens are not treated, I guess, you got to wait very long to see total elimination of symptoms on its own?

Kaitlan
Regular Member


Date Joined Mar 2017
Total Posts : 43
   Posted 10/10/2017 3:37 PM (GMT -6)   
I think I'm confused about terminology.

I thought the bacteria itself are antigens since they induce an immune response?

You all are saying the infection can be dormant and still express antigens that cause symptoms, but I thought the definition of dormant was that it no longer causes symptoms?

Is it considered dormant when the bacteria itself no longer causes symptoms directly?

But if it can still cause symptoms indirectly by producing antigens and a immune response, is it really dormant?

In this scenario the bacteria are still causing the symptoms, just indirectly right?

Maybe I'm not understanding what it actually means for an infection to be dormant.

Post Edited (Kaitlan) : 10/10/2017 3:46:31 PM (GMT-6)


astroman
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Date Joined Mar 2014
Total Posts : 3704
   Posted 10/10/2017 7:15 PM (GMT -6)   
Pirouette said...
MAF249 said...
astroman said...
Pirouette- "candida thrives on a weak liver"

Interestsing, never heard this before. Are there links on this? It might explain things.


Getting around to Astroman's post -
I copied that info and that specific sentence from wherever I pulled that study, I think... it's been a couple yrs so I can't recall specifically. But here is a great article on liver function that was interesting. It mentioned that many w/ y/f overgrowth also have fatty liver problems but doesn't go into the relationship in detail (maybe one of the studies linked in the article does). And states that the cause/correlation is not currently understood. But that, of course, resolving the y/f issues can improve liver health:
/www.yeastinfection.org/fatty-liver-and-candida-infection-is-it-connected/

-p



Oh.I know all about candida........and leaky gut since I had both many times. Piro-thats a good liver link. Explaining what a "fatty liver" is and how high triglycerides contribute. My tri's are good livers not fatty, but I have a list of liver detox gene issues, which there is little info on.

(Between my liver, Hashimoto, and whatever these tick infections did, I'm guessing I'll never feel 100% normal again. Thats just being realistic.) this thing is putting MY comment in the wrong place...-AM

Post Edited (astroman) : 10/10/2017 7:19:00 PM (GMT-6)


Psilociraptor
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Date Joined Jul 2016
Total Posts : 997
   Posted 10/10/2017 9:35 PM (GMT -6)   
Kaitlan said...
I think I'm confused about terminology.

I thought the bacteria itself are antigens since they induce an immune response?

You all are saying the infection can be dormant and still express antigens that cause symptoms, but I thought the definition of dormant was that it no longer causes symptoms?

Is it considered dormant when the bacteria itself no longer causes symptoms directly?

But if it can still cause symptoms indirectly by producing antigens and a immune response, is it really dormant?

In this scenario the bacteria are still causing the symptoms, just indirectly right?

Maybe I'm not understanding what it actually means for an infection to be dormant.


You're actually getting it pretty well. I would say that "latency" is a better term for an infection that doesn't cause symptoms. Some people might use dormant, but dormancy can also refer to the metabolic state of the bacteria itself so that can be confusing. For example, Lyme can be an active spirochete or a dormant cyst. Dormant cysts have a greatly reduced metabolism and don't move much at all. They just kind of hang out waiting for the optimal environmental conditions to start growing and dividing again. A lot of the symptoms of Lyme are indirect whether or not it is dormant. This is because it's antigens can stimulate an inflammatory response and some antigens are the same between dormant bacteria and active ones. Antigen is just a molecule that antibody binds to. So for example Borrelia has OspA sticking out on it's surface when it's active. OspA is also on its surface when it is in cystic form. OspA is an example of an antigen that can cause autoimmunity because it "looks like" human neurons causing the body to produce autoreactive antibodies. So in this case autoimmunity may be caused by both active and dormant Borrelia. That's not always the case though. The two are different and so some antigens might appear or disappear between different forms of the bacteria

Pirouette - to my understanding yes. In fact, a lot of cystic forms are reportedly found to be localized within the biofilm. It's a good protective strategy. Resistance to antibacterials and protection from the immune system simultaneously.

Kaitlan
Regular Member


Date Joined Mar 2017
Total Posts : 43
   Posted 10/10/2017 10:52 PM (GMT -6)   
Psilociraptor -

Ok, it's starting to make more sense.

So in certain infections both active and dormant forms can cause immune responses. Do you know if EBV and the common co-infections have this ability as well.

Do other infections change into different forms when they go dormant?

Jinna
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Date Joined May 2017
Total Posts : 692
   Posted 10/11/2017 2:19 PM (GMT -6)   
Google pleomorphism and you'll see that most bacteria change forms.

not only bacteria, but fungi too. Fungi / candida are the masters of changing forms, and you can spend a whole life studying just ONE fungal species and not knowing all its pleomorphic forms, according to some pretty OLD research

If I remember well, a Swedish doctor spent 30 years of his life looking at small microbes in his microscope, trying to see if he could get all plemorphic forms and understand them.

He wrote that conclusion above: no one knows all pleomorphic forms of ONE single type of fungi.

today, as far as I know, research says that microbes change forms from virus to bacteria to fungi to mold and vice versa.

We see bacteria as separate beings (monomorphism), but it seems that pleomophism go even further into change of species.

It is way too mind blowing for the mainstream community to accept it yet, I suppose...
It's all about evolution.

Post Edited (Jinna) : 10/11/2017 2:31:52 PM (GMT-6)


Jinna
Veteran Member


Date Joined May 2017
Total Posts : 692
   Posted 10/11/2017 2:26 PM (GMT -6)   
hhttp://sueyounghistories.com/archives/2008/10/31/gunther-enderlein-1872-1968/

http://www.cardstonmed.com/pleomorphism-the-cure-for-all-chronic-diseases.html

http://www.alternative-cancer-care.com/cancer-fungus-link.html


http://www.health-science-spirit.com/pleomorphics.htm

I haven't read it all , but the 4th website speaks about mycoplasma and lyme.
There is also a small part on autoimmune

Post Edited (Jinna) : 10/11/2017 2:36:22 PM (GMT-6)


Kaitlan
Regular Member


Date Joined Mar 2017
Total Posts : 43
   Posted 10/11/2017 7:10 PM (GMT -6)   
Thanks for all the information. I will definitely read through it.

So a lot of bacteria change forms. I was under the impression that borrelia was kind of unique in this way, but I guess not. I thought this was one of the things that set borrelia apart from other common infections and that it's changing forms made it "worse" as far as symptoms and difficulty to kill.

Do a lot of types of bacteria have the ability to express inflammatory antigens when they are in their dormant forms like borrelia does?

Post Edited (Kaitlan) : 10/11/2017 7:13:42 PM (GMT-6)


Kaitlan
Regular Member


Date Joined Mar 2017
Total Posts : 43
   Posted 10/11/2017 11:11 PM (GMT -6)   
Jinna said...
Psilociraptor said...
This depends on what you're talking about. A pathogen can become dormant in which case it may still cause disease due to expressing inflammatory antigens. It is only dormant in the sense that it is not actively dividing and it's metabolism has been greatly reduced. On the other hand you can have asymptomatic disease which probably just has to do more with the pathogen load being small


It's funny to see that more and more people understand that mechanism of immune system attacking non-dangerous entities (dormant pathogens seen as Antigens).

That was the big issue with chronic lyme: most doctors kept saying, infection is not there, BUT your body is still reacting AS THOUGH it were there.

They were not totally wrong, either, in the sense above : EVEN when pathogens go dormant, do not reproduce, a bit like a bear going in hibernation will not eat anything, barely consuming oxygen - the body can still THINK that they are active and continue causing inflammation.

For the patient, he will be still suffering immune reactions, like it was stipulated for patients suffering from 'post lyme disease' (= no more active infection, but active immune reactions).

Of course, they JUST missed the part that there were active infections for most patients.

but it's nice to see that the lyme community is evolving too, to wonder about such long lasting immune reactions.

Here in Europe, there is way to determine if your body reacts to Antigens of Borrelia burgdorferi or to 'actual' Borrelia burgdorferi (through bioresonance).

I have a few nosodes with Borrelia Antigens too, that I also treated, once active infection got dormant.
I did feel improvement in symptoms after treating Bb Antigens. Most people do feel.

What we treat then, is like the memory of Borrelia, to quieten the immune system...

I call my Bb dormant, because I feel no symptom from lyme anymore.

Unless these Antigens are not treated, I guess, you got to wait very long to see total elimination of symptoms on its own?


I just reread this reply and understood it much more than I did the first time. Do you have any good links about how the immune system attacks dormant infections as if they were active causing symptoms. I don't even know how to try to type that into Google to do more research.

The memory antigens of the active infection that you're speaking of refers to the inflammatory antigens on the dormant infections such as the antigens on the cyst's, right?

If we are having an immune reaction to antigens on dormant bacteria wouldn't this continue indefinitely since we will never rid ourselves of dormant infection? Or does the bacteria load of dormant infection have to shrink past a certain amount before the immune response will stop?

In the part that you're talking about the testing; do our bodies produce two different types of antibodies to the actual borellia bacteria and borellia antigens?

Is this something that would happen with anyone after a borellia infection has gone dormant or does this only happen in certain people for some reason?

Sorry for all the questions, just very curious. It helps put my mind at ease to understand more about why I'm sick.

Jinna
Veteran Member


Date Joined May 2017
Total Posts : 692
   Posted 10/12/2017 3:22 AM (GMT -6)   
I just copy pasted one of the website info above. This is not totally mainstream accepted... but it may help understand that some symptoms (inflammation) may persist with the absence of virulence (active infection).

My experience says that when pathogens become dormant, they stop reproducing, so symptoms do not change, basically. Areas with inflammation remain in trouble, but they do not spread.

If the symtpoms change and spread, it shows (to my understanding) spread of active infection.

that's just my intake on the subject...
---------------------------------------------

Understanding Autoimmune Diseases

The mechanism of mycoplasma infections lets us understand the true nature of autoimmune diseases.

During the acute initial stage of a bacterial infection the immune system eliminates most of the invading microbes but some of them manage to survive by hiding inside the cells of a vulnerable organ or gland.

They may remain there, possibly in their mycoplasma form or even as spores, until the vitality of the host, and especially of the immune system, sufficiently decline.


Then they gradually come out again into the blood, but this time camouflaged by being clothed in the biological markers of the cells in which they have been hiding.

This may work for some time but eventually the immune system looks through the deception and starts attacking these imposters.

Unfortunately, genuine body cells with the same markers get attacked as well. This then leads to an autoimmune disease involving the organ or gland in which the original invaders had been hiding.


However, my own experience in addition to publications by others show that such autoimmune attacks can be stopped with appropriate natural therapies.

To be successful the blood needs to be cleaned of the pleomorphics that weaken the immune system and the red blood cells.

Then immune cells can also eliminate the disguised microbes with the deceptive markers from the blood.

This eventually stops the attack of normal body cells with these markers.

Any surviving invaders may hide again as spores in suitable host cells.

Such spores may even be transmitted to the offspring.

Moonchez
Regular Member


Date Joined Sep 2017
Total Posts : 36
   Posted 10/12/2017 4:24 AM (GMT -6)   
Pirouette -

Currently doing Gemmotherapy for EBV in preparation for more extensive natural antivirals (my system is a mess) have you ever had anything like coffee grounds in your stool?

Sorry, I know this is kind of a personal question, but I go to get a sample taken Friday and from what I've read its either bacteria being shed or I'm bleeding from somewhere. I PERSONALLY think its bacteria, but I'm also anemic, so who bloody knows....

Any more info or direction on great EBV threats would be AHHHH-mazing. <3

Thanks so much for all of the info above!!

gabybee
Regular Member


Date Joined Nov 2015
Total Posts : 116
   Posted 10/12/2017 7:16 AM (GMT -6)   
The only thing that helped my EBV and HHV6 was doing bee venom therapy, it has seriously enhanced my treatment sooooo much I almost feel like a normal person again <3

Moonchez
Regular Member


Date Joined Sep 2017
Total Posts : 36
   Posted 10/12/2017 8:40 PM (GMT -6)   
Gabybee-

I inadvertently did bee venom therapy.... as in... got stung by a bee and my whole system went COMPLETELY out of whack and came off of a period of feeling great to feeling like DEATH warmed over.... its good for EBV?

My ND called Dr. Armin today and had a long chat with him about my bloodwork and apparently they're now convinced my coxsackie virus is the thing most spiralling out of control.

Still not sure...
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