How is prostate size determined?

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cmh46
New Member


Date Joined Jul 2008
Total Posts : 4
   Posted 7/15/2008 3:16 PM (GMT -6)   
Hi, everyone.
 
First of all, thanks for all of the feedback to my earlier thread. (46 with a psa of 3.17)  I appreciate the sharing of all the experiences and words of support.
 
I've seen a number of references to prostate size on the site.  How is that size determined?  Is that part of the DRE or is there a separate test?
 
Thanks.

KC9AOP
Regular Member


Date Joined Jun 2008
Total Posts : 85
   Posted 7/15/2008 4:48 PM (GMT -6)   
Your Urologist will do an ultrasound. You may need to ask what your volume is, I did.
I am age 47 - Father, Paternal Uncle and Maternal Grandfather had/have Prostate Cancer.
Father 74 years old, PSA = 10.6 Gleason = 5 + 5 = 10 (very aggressive) and high involvement in all cores. Seed therapy is the only option. Father died cancer free.
6/4/08 - At physical DRE normal, PSA test returns 4.4
6/20/08 - First Urologist visit. DRE and ultrasound finds nothing conclusive. Doctor says biopsy is the only safe way to go. Prostate volume is 40 grams.
7/11/08 - PSA test returns 4.1. Scheduled the Stereotactic Transpareneal Prostate Biopsy for 7/23


aus
Regular Member


Date Joined Sep 2006
Total Posts : 211
   Posted 7/15/2008 7:21 PM (GMT -6)   
It is not possible to determine size by DRE.
Yes, it is done by ultrasound: usually as a matter of course when biopsy is done.

biker90
Veteran Member


Date Joined Nov 2006
Total Posts : 1455
   Posted 7/15/2008 7:37 PM (GMT -6)   
My prostate size was in the biopsy report.
Age 74. Diagnosed 11/03/06. PSA 7.05. Stage T2C Gleason 3+3.
RRP 12/7/06. Nerves and nodes okay.
Catheter out on 12/13/06.  Dry on 12/14/06.
Pathological stage: T2C N0 MX. Gleason 3+4.
50 mg Viagra + 1000 mg L-Arginine + .03 cc Trimix = Excellent Results
PSAs from  1/3/07 - 1/17/08 0.00. 
Next PSA test on 7/17/08
Lung cancer dxed on 5/16/08.  Surgery on 6/25/08  T1N1M0 - Stage IIA
"Patience is essential, attitude is everything."


smilingoldcoot
Regular Member


Date Joined Jan 2008
Total Posts : 338
   Posted 7/15/2008 7:47 PM (GMT -6)   
We hope that your PSA is the results of BPH and not cancer.  I will offer two sites to consider should you have a biopsy that comes back positive.
 
 
 
Wewish you the best.
 
Richard yeah aka smilingoldcoot
Retired USAF Richard & Debbie on The Shores of Toledo Bend Lake Louisiana
Biospy 1/10/08 Gleason 10, Stage T1C  8 of 12 samples positive all Less Than 5% 
Jan & Feb & Mar all tests clear
MD Anderson = No surgery and No Proton only Hormone and IMRT
Contacted with Loma Linda and UFPTI in FL
Started Treatment at the U of Florida Proton Therapy Institute in April 2008
May 2, 2008 LUPRON & Casodex
IMRT to started  5/27/2008 Will get 42 treatments 25 IMRT and then 17 Proton
Turn Stumbling Blocks into Steping Stones and Keep Smiling
Our Journey is on WWW.GLEASON10.COM
 


Sparrowhawk
Regular Member


Date Joined Mar 2011
Total Posts : 130
   Posted 6/30/2011 4:54 PM (GMT -6)   
Bump to reopen for more discussion.

I've sitting around between short recovery walks going over what has now amassed to a huge pile of my medical records. I was wondering just how big did my prostate have to get before it split? (Yeah, big enough is not quite the answer I'm looking for.) My renal and pelvic ultrasound report from 23 days before my surgery states my prostate volume as 50cc. (Cubic Centimeters??)
While reading a number of "Bios" here some gents have stated their prostate was considered enlarged at 19cc ! I was under the impression that the normal size of the prostate is between 20 to 30 cc.

This is another one of the PCa roads which suddenly starts to take twists and truns!
31 Jan 11 "Cyst" found on prostate during Colonoscpy.
28 Feb 11 Biopsy of Prostate; Malignat Neoplasm of Prostate.
Rt: 30-40% LT: 5% Gleason Score 3+4=7 Both sides.
PSA: 2.16 "Very Stable over time."
15 Mar 11 Bone and Cat Scans completed- Normal
Large Prostate: 4.9 x 4.0 cm
25 Jun 11 Di Vinci surgery preformed, prostate removed. MSK NYC

Worried Guy
Veteran Member


Date Joined Jul 2009
Total Posts : 3257
   Posted 6/30/2011 9:01 PM (GMT -6)   
I'm pretty sure mine was weighted just before it was plopped into the hospital bio-hazard bucket.

Jeff
Age: 58, Mar 35 yrs, 56 dx, PSA: 4/09 17.8 6/09 23.2
Biopsy: 6/09 7 of 12 Pos, 20-70%, Gleason 4+3 Bone, CT Neg
DaVinci RP: 7/09, U of Roch Med Ctr
Path Rpt: Glsn 3+4, pT3aNOMx, 56g, Tumor 2.5x1.8 cm both lobes and apex
EPE present, PNI extensive, Sem Ves, Vas def clear, Lymph 0/13
Incont: 200ml/day ED: Trimix
Post Surg PSA: 10/09 .04, 4/10 .04, 7/10 <0.01, 12/10 <0.01
AdVance Sling 1/10/11 Dry

Sparrowhawk
Regular Member


Date Joined Mar 2011
Total Posts : 130
   Posted 7/1/2011 6:00 AM (GMT -6)   
Weight and Volume are two different values. I don't know what the weight of my prostate was but the volume was known to be 50cc's.

My "stuff" will be saved for research. Just a thought for anyone else. I figured I'm not using it any more, maybe it will help the next guy!
31 Jan 11 "Cyst" found on prostate during Colonoscpy.
28 Feb 11 Biopsy of Prostate; Malignat Neoplasm of Prostate.
Rt: 30-40% LT: 5% Gleason Score 3+4=7 Both sides.
PSA: 2.16 "Very Stable over time."
15 Mar 11 Bone and Cat Scans completed- Normal
Large Prostate: 4.9 x 4.0 cm
25 Jun 11 Di Vinci surgery preformed, prostate removed. MSK NYC

Ed C. (Old67)
Veteran Member


Date Joined Jan 2009
Total Posts : 2361
   Posted 7/1/2011 7:10 AM (GMT -6)   
My prostate weighed 57 grams. I don't know what the volume was. Is there a way to estimate volume from the weight?
Age: 67 at Dx on 12/30/08 PSA 3.8
2 cores out of 12 were positive Gleason (4+4)
Davinci surgery 2/9/09 Gleason 4+4 EPE,
Margins clear, nerve bundles removed
Prostate weighed 57 grams 10-20% involved
all PSA tests since (2, 5, 8, 11, 15, 18, 21, 2 years <.008? ) undetectable
27 months: .005

JStars
Regular Member


Date Joined Oct 2005
Total Posts : 455
   Posted 7/1/2011 8:36 AM (GMT -6)   
While the prostate is in your body and inaccessible (except via Ultrasound or CT or MRI) it is measured in Volume (CC = Cubic Centimeters for all the U.S. metrically challenged among us). For all the engineer/geeks we all know by heart that 1 cu inch = 16.39 cc. And the volume is more or less an estimate even with the high tech methods used. I suppose a doc could also give some type of estimate thru DRE ("larger than X cc" ..) if he wanted. My doc always just said "You've got a very big prostate there".

Once the prostate comes out it is simply weighed -- so now you are down to grams.
And that is that -- the definitive final value.

Since the prostate is, I guess a little LESS dense than pure water would be, then the weight value number is usually less than the volume value -- but who knows that could be due to other factors too.

Edit-Update:
Prostate tissue density () was 0.98 or  1.0 (g/mL)

http://www.cmj.hr/2005/46/3/15861522.pdf


Mine was estimated 120 cc and came out 110 gm. Good riddance to that one I say. The other morning I just peed full gush for 30 seconds it seemed -- every day islike the good ol (young) days.

Post Edited (JStars) : 7/1/2011 4:25:18 PM (GMT-6)


James C.
Veteran Member


Date Joined Aug 2007
Total Posts : 4453
   Posted 7/1/2011 9:40 AM (GMT -6)   
My post-surgery path report says:

"Received fresh and identified as 'prostate' is a 110 gram, 5.6 x 5.6 x 4.4 cm prostate gland," etc, etc. I interpret that I got the weight and the size, if not the volume? Other assorted attachments (seminal vessels, lymph nodes, etc.)were listed, measured and weighed seperate.
James C, 64, East TN
Gonna Make Myself A Better Man tinyurl.com/28e8qcg
4/07: PSA 7.6, 7/07 Biopsy: 3 of 16 PCa, 5% inv, lf. lobe, GS6
9/07: Nerve Spar. open RP, Path: pT2c, 110 gms., clear except:
Prob. microscopic inv.-left apical margin -GS6
3 Years: PSA's .04 each test until 4/10-.06, 9/10-.09, 12/10-.09, 2/11-.08, 5/11-.08
Bimix .30

JNF
Veteran Member


Date Joined Dec 2010
Total Posts : 1741
   Posted 7/1/2011 10:12 AM (GMT -6)   
As I understand the volume in cc and weight in grams are normally fairly comparable for the prostate. Thus for James the 110 grams should be about 110 cc, but if you do the math 5.6x5.6x4.4=137.98cc. Of course this would assume the prostate is a cube in shape, but actually it is much more rounded which would reduce the volume.

Actually, James, you didn't have a prostate, you had a tennis ball. The tennis ball volume is 137.258 cc.
PSA 59 on 8-26-2010 age 60. Biopsy 9-8-2010 12/12 positive, 20-80% involved, PNI in 3 cores, G 3+3,3+4,and 4+3=G7, T2b.
Eligard shot and daily Jalyn started on 10-7-2010.
IMRT to prostate and lymph nodes 25 fractions started on 11-8-2010
HDR Brachytherapy December 6 and 13-2010.
PSA <.1 and T 23 on 2-3-2011.
PSA <.1 on 4-7-2011
Second Eligard shot on 4-7-2011

James C.
Veteran Member


Date Joined Aug 2007
Total Posts : 4453
   Posted 7/1/2011 2:32 PM (GMT -6)   
JNF, thanks, well, I feel better now... devil Tennis anyone? I got the bal... uh, nevermind....
James C, 64, East TN
Gonna Make Myself A Better Man tinyurl.com/28e8qcg
4/07: PSA 7.6, 7/07 Biopsy: 3 of 16 PCa, 5% inv, lf. lobe, GS6
9/07: Nerve Spar. open RP, Path: pT2c, 110 gms., clear except:
Prob. microscopic inv.-left apical margin -GS6
3 Years: PSA's .04 each test until 4/10-.06, 9/10-.09, 12/10-.09, 2/11-.08, 5/11-.08
Bimix .30

Worried Guy
Veteran Member


Date Joined Jul 2009
Total Posts : 3257
   Posted 7/1/2011 4:47 PM (GMT -6)   
Since we humans are nominally 70% water you can think of us a basically sacks of water with some solids thrown in to make up for the empty space between our ears. Note how we just barely float when we are in a fresh water pool.

You can figure the density of water is 1 gram/cc . That number does go down a little as the water warms up to body temp, but goes up when you figure the salt.

So, James' Giant Peach was 110 grams and, most likely, pretty darn close to 110 cc. Definitely a whopper!

Jeff

Jeff
Age: 58, Mar 35 yrs, 56 dx, PSA: 4/09 17.8 6/09 23.2
Biopsy: 6/09 7 of 12 Pos, 20-70%, Gleason 4+3 Bone, CT Neg
DaVinci RP: 7/09, U of Roch Med Ctr
Path Rpt: Glsn 3+4, pT3aNOMx, 56g, Tumor 2.5x1.8 cm both lobes and apex
EPE present, PNI extensive, Sem Ves, Vas def clear, Lymph 0/13
Incont: 200ml/day ED: Trimix
Post Surg PSA: 10/09 .04, 4/10 .04, 7/10 <0.01, 12/10 <0.01
AdVance Sling 1/10/11 Dry

English Alf
Veteran Member


Date Joined Oct 2009
Total Posts : 2087
   Posted 7/2/2011 8:12 AM (GMT -6)   
When the uro does the ultrasound he can use measuring tools to mark points on the image on the screen to work out how wide/high/deep something is (same as an obstetrician measuring the diameter of a baby's head during an ultrasound during pregnancy) The prostate is a sort of chestnut shape and say the size of a golf ball (James excluded) Thus to work out the volume the formula is more like that for the volume of a sphere = 4/3 π r3
The volume of the prostate depends on the accuracy of these measurements and calculations. The weight of the prostate done after surgery is far more accurate, but also depends on what tissue is actually put on the scales (eg the seminal vesicles are also removed in a RRP, but should not be put on the scales when determining the weight.


1cm3 is the same as 1cc
1cm3 of water weighs 1gm (This equality 1:1 is the basis for the origional definition of the gram : it's now defined in terms of the mass of a specific number of carbon 12 atoms or some such)

Body tissue such as the prostate is just lighter than water so 100cm3 of prosatte would weigh about 98 grams

The size of the prostate can be important as far as ease of access to the site during surgery and also ease of removal. (one of the points of the Robot operation is that it only needs small incisions to be made, but one of the incisions will always have to be big enough to be able to remove the prosatte through it.)

I seem to remember that my own was about 45gm.

Alf
Age dx 48
Apr 09 PSA 8.6
DRE neg
Biop 2/12 pos
Gleason 3+3
Jul 09 DaVinci AVL-NKI Amsterdam
6 Aug 09 Cath out
PostOp Gleason 3+4 Bladder neck & Left SVI -T3b
No perin’l No vasc invasion Clear margins
Dry at night
21 Sep 09 No pads daytime
Nov 09 PSA 0.1
Mar 10 PSA 0.4 sent to RT
13 Apr CT
RT 66Gy ends 11 Jun 10
Tired + weird BMs
Sep 10 PSA <0.1
Jan 11 PSA <0.1
Apr 11 PSA <0.1
Erection OK
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