Pomegranate juice

New Topic Locked Topic Printable Version
97 posts in this thread.
Viewing Page :
 1  2  3  4 
[ << Previous Thread | Next Thread >> ]

BB_Fan
Veteran Member


Date Joined Jan 2010
Total Posts : 977
   Posted 12/19/2010 9:54 AM (GMT -7)   
I don't know QAI, there are some pretty compelling studies that show that PCa growth is slowed with pomegranate juice. I agree nothing that shows prevention or cure. I don't think anyone has made that statement. Also, it is generally understood that you don't want to inhibit the effect of RT by taking antioxidents. Doesn't mean that you should begin taking them again when done. Also, I agree with your point on suger content of Pom. It is very high. I am pre-diabetic and only take it in pill form. I do drink it occasionally mixed with seltzer or green tea.
Dx PCa Dec 2008 at 56, PSA 3.4
Biopsy: T1c, Geason 7 (3+4) - 8 cores, 4 positive, 30% of all 4 cores.
Robotic Surgery March 2009 Hartford Hospital, Dr Wagner
Pathology Report: T2c, Geason 8, organ confined, negitive margins, lymph nodes negitive - tumor volume 9%, nerves spared, no negitive side effects of surgery.
PSA's < .01, .01, .07, .28, .50. HT 5/10. IMRT 9/10.
PSA's post HT .01, < .01

James C.
Veteran Member


Date Joined Aug 2007
Total Posts : 4454
   Posted 12/19/2010 12:21 PM (GMT -7)   
questionaboutit, you posted:

"“You have to be on pomegranate juice. You have a 50 percent chance of getting [prostate cancer]. Listen to me. It is the one thing that will keep your PSA normal. You have to drink pomegranate juice. There is nothing else we know of that will keep your PSA in check. … It’s also 40 percent as effective as Viagra."

I can't tell if this is your talking or a continuation of the quote from the Pom Wonderful above it. Could you clarify that a little?

UPDATE: Nevermind, I found the original in the FDA comllaint thread and understand that this is another bullet point in the complaint, not anyone here's personal opinion.

Buidui, in your chart you posted, part of it below:
09286 Pomegranates, raw 4479
09442 Pomegranate juice, bottled 2681
99430 Juice, Blueberry 2359
97074 Grapes, red, raw 1837
99583 Goji berry 3290
09078 Cranberries, raw 9090
99012 Chokeberry, raw 16062
97072 Apples, Red Delicious,raw. with skin 4275

The way I read that, and the promoted 'Typical' ORAC values, then the Red Delicious apple is approaching twice as 'healthy' for ORAC vales as pom juice and approaching the same value of eating the pom's raw. If that is so, and apples equals pom's, in this case, then an apple would be much cheaper that the pom fruit and the juice, correct? If so, then attention needs to be moved to the healthy medical effect of the old saying- an apple a day keeps the doctor (and in this case, by inference- cancer) away. Does this reasoning fail somewhere along the line? If we consider the ORAC value as to some beneficial value, then it would seem so.?
James C. Age 63
Gonna Make Myself A Better Man tinyurl.com/28e8qcg
4/07: PSA 7.6, 7/07 Biopsy: 3 of 16 PCa, 5% involved, left lobe, GS6
9/07: Nerve Sparing open RRP, Path: pT2c, 110 gms., all clear except:
Probable microscopic involvement of the left apical margin -GS6
3 Years: PSA's .04 each test until 04/10-.06, 09/10-.09- Uh-Oh, next in Feb.
ED-total-Bimix 30cc

Post Edited (James C.) : 12/19/2010 11:55:50 AM (GMT-7)


F8
Veteran Member


Date Joined Feb 2010
Total Posts : 3284
   Posted 12/19/2010 12:45 PM (GMT -7)   
>>A single 8 oz glass has 30 grams of sugar, more, I think, than the FDA recommended limit.<<
 
the 1000 mg POMx pills have zero calories and cost a buck a day.
 
ed
 
 
age: 55
PSA on 12/09: 6.8
no symptoms, no prostate enlargement
12/12 cores positive....gleason 3+4 = 7
HT, BT and IGRT
received 3rd and last lupron shot 9/14/10

BuiDoi
Regular Member


Date Joined Aug 2010
Total Posts : 227
   Posted 12/19/2010 2:27 PM (GMT -7)   

   confused    What would I know about anything.  I am in the same boat as you ALL.

I see real scientific reports on Horphag Pycnogenol (Pine-Bark-Extract), and now on Pomegranate-Juice, and I simply ask - If the good Lord gave us "Good Foods - that heal us",   then what is it within those foods that makes them GOOD.  I look beyond the individual , to the whole !  We do have to accept that just like formal medications, approved by the FDA, natural healing, will not work the same for EVERYONE.  So provided that it can't HURT, then it worth considering.

In EVERY case where formal study using Double-Blind or other testing are used, they declare that it is the  "Anti-Oxidants, and the Bio-Flavorniods etc."   that is doing the good.  Does one then think that these materials are the ones doing the GOOD and accompanied by the nice taste of the original food..

If I then study other foods, (enter the ARS) then I find those same (but) untested materials in other foods, and I think - "well , if they have proved that these materials have the health-benefits suggested, then the same chemicals in a concentrated form  MUST by definition, be even better."

 

"The way I read that, and the promoted 'Typical' ORAC values, then the Red Delicious apple is approaching twice as 'healthy' for ORAC vales as pom juice and approaching the same value of eating the pom's raw. If that is so, and apples equals pom's, in this case, then an apple would be much cheaper that the pom fruit and the juice, correct? If so, then attention needs to be moved to the healthy medical effect of the old saying- an apple a day keeps the doctor (and in this case, by inference- cancer) away. Does this reasoning fail somewhere along the line? If we consider the ORAC value as to some beneficial value, then it would seem so.?"

NOW - James C. - you know that I did not make up these figures and I included a variety to show that a Cucumber is barely worth the eating effort (but for the taste), and a Pecan Nut is very good for you.  I am foolishly prepared to BELIEVE that if Formal study of concentrated "Pine-Bark-Tea" is far-far better than the tea itself, and if Pomegranate-Extract is far better than the Juice itself,   then I    AM   prepared to consider that  'Green-Tea' extract is better than Green-tea, and 'Grape-Seed' extract is better than eating grapes, and that if I can buy a combination of MANY of these, in a single, affordable product, then , even without a full scientific double-blind test, then there HAS to be greater benefit.   ENTER  OPCXtra  and my  OCD  obsession for it..    Don't stop at OPCXtra, there is just so many.. as I have repeatedly stated..   OPC-3, Resveratrols of many brands,  Pycnogenol,  etc.etc.  but which of them carry pages of testimonials ?

NO - I am I NOT so crazy that I have them ALL lined up on the shelf, and I don't take each , just in case one or more has lied to me like the Pharma-Companies.  I started on OPC-3 and have chosen OPCXtra..  I have felt the results within MY body.  I have seen the results in many others.   AND - I look forward to the planned inclusion of   idea   Pomegranate Extract, possibly within the next year.

YES - these guys are making MONEY from our missery..  BUT - the Pharma-Companies are making far, far more for drugs that we KNOW have serious side-effects, and we accept that, because the FDA has approved them. shocked

There is    NOTHING   wrong with Pom-Juice.  It has to be fantastic, but just as asprin has been concentrated from the Willow-Bark, so too do I want the BIG hit of concentrated extracts from as many discrete sources as I can.  Will we ever see a similar study of Apple-Juice - I suspect not.  Surely they can "STUDY" a few foods, work out what it is the is doing the Good-Stuff, and then measure the Good-Stuff in other foods

Call me   OCD  'cause I bloody well am !

PS - Be sure to eat the ENTIRE apple, as the tiny amount of poison within the seed, is known to attach to Cancer calls by preference  skull

PPS - Thanks to those who have emailed , confirming that THEY do believe.

PPPS -"and they have a very impressive antioxidant rating, higher that the well known levels in red wine, green tea, blueberries and cranberries. "

It's frustrating that some of the claims being made by the 'pushers' of these products, seem to conflict with what we could consider as science..  James.C picked up on the Apples, and then there is the Cranberries, which according to ARS, is twice as good as Pom-Juice..  I suppose that if the statement is correct that the Pom-Industry spent $20M promoting the industry, then you can understand why the Pom-Subject is so out front..   An extra benefit of the Extracts is that the Fructose has been removed and that is a whole new line -- Fructose and Cancer..  BlueBerries reads every bit as good as the Pom.   I suppose that they need to also spend $20M on promotion for someone to act.

Just read the ARS and decide for yourself !   I notice not effect until after three months on OPC-3 and then OPCXtra...

.

 

Post Edited (BuiDoi) : 12/19/2010 2:24:18 PM (GMT-7)


Purgatory
Elite Member


Date Joined Oct 2008
Total Posts : 24403
   Posted 12/19/2010 4:47 PM (GMT -7)   
On the pine-bark remark, read what the American Cancer Society's findings were on the subject, bottom line, no confirmed evidence of any medical value:

http://www.cancer.org/Treatment/TreatmentsandSideEffects/ComplementaryandAlternativeMedicine/HerbsVitaminsandMinerals/pine-bark-extract
Age: 58, 56 dx, PSA: 7/07 5.8, 10/08 16.3
3rd Biopsy: 9/08 7 of 7 Positive, 40-90%, Gleason 4+3
open RP: 11/08, on catheters for 101 days
Path Rpt: Gleason 3+4, pT2c, 42g, 20% cancer, 1 pos marg
Incont & ED: None
Post Surgery PSA: 2/09 .05,5/09 .1, 6/09 .11. 8/09 .16
Post SRT PSA: 1/10 .12, 4/8 .04, 8/6 .06 11/10 Not taking it
Latest: 6 Corr Surgeries to Bladder Neck, SP Catheter since 10/1/9, SRT 39 Sess/72 gy ended 11/09, 21 Catheters, Ileal Conduit Surgery 9/23/10

BuiDoi
Regular Member


Date Joined Aug 2010
Total Posts : 227
   Posted 12/19/2010 5:30 PM (GMT -7)   
questionaboutit said...

The evidence that antioxidants prevent cancer, cure cancer or slow cancer is inconclusive at best.  Studies have conflicting results.  There are studies that suggest that some antioxidants may actually increase the risk of breast or lung cancer.  Other studies suggest that antioxidants may reduce the intended effect of chemotherapy and radiation.  I can dig up the links if needed.

 

<!--StartFragment -->
I would the VERY interested in where you got this comment from..  I have be trawling the Internet seeking GOOD and BAD information.  I would like to think that whilst I am OCD, I am far from not being interested in the BAD - - I have looked and not found.   Can you give any links please ?

"Billy, you sapped them but good this time."   You got me too BillyMac, as I was looking seriously and just did not pick up on your humor - Your a bloody Galah..  Thanks for lightening it up !

"I read about a guy who claimed to have cured himself with cayenne pepper..... "   Actually - Don't laugh, because IF you accept the science of Anti-Oxidants, then from the ARS you can speculate (sorry), that such just could be the case..  I too read something on Chillis.
The reality is that most fruits (foods) have these Anti-Oxidants, and it is just that you can almost never eat enough to be fully 'medicinal'  and hope to really have an impact -- Enter the extracts..

"I do know from a true medical situation, ......and you or someone has a bad open wound that needs to be cleaned ....... can use your own,"
I think that I have the answer...   YES..   Just B4 the Cath' removal, I had the usual Cystogram ??? and it showed  BIG leaks from the bladder.
I asked the specialist - "But all that urine, seeping into the abdomen - what a disaster?"
No said he - it is just absorbed back into the system and finally excreted and it is HIGHLY sterile (unless you have a bladder or kidney infection)
So - If I had a cut and it was full of mud from the swamp, then I would be happy to Pee-It-Clean.

"Also, it is generally understood that you don't want to inhibit the effect of RT by taking antioxidents. Doesn't mean that you should begin taking them again when done. "
This one I just don't know about..  I can't help the feeling that the Doc's want it both ways here.  On one hand they say that it's all crap and Snake-Oil stuff and then they say that Anti-Oxidants might counter the destroying effect of Radiation and Chemo..  
My U-Doc said that I was wasting my time and needed the operation, but quickly told me to stop the OPC 10 days prior to the OP.  Oi !!!
Then I have heard the other comment from Alternate Doctors who have said that Anti-Oxidants WILL augment the effects of Chemo and lessen the side effects.   I don't think that I would accept that they would act against Radiation, as they are two different mechanisms.
I would believe that AO's would help my immune system at a stressed time, when I was vulnerable to OTHER problems..

It is an interesting subject !
.

maldugs
Veteran Member


Date Joined Jun 2007
Total Posts : 670
   Posted 12/19/2010 7:27 PM (GMT -7)   
Wow!! one line on how much pom juice to take, started a war...lol.

Merry Xmas to all.

Mal.
age 67 PSA 5.8 DRE slightly firm Rt
Biopsy 2nd July 07 5 out of 12 positive
Gleason 3+4=7 right side tumour adenocarcinoma stage T2a
RP on 30th July,

Post op Pathology, tumour stage T3a 4+3=7, microcsopic evidence of capsular penetration, seminal vessels, bladder neck,are free of tumour, lymph nodes clear, no evidence of metastatic malignancy, tumour does not extend to the apical margins.

Post op PSA 0.5 26th Sept. Totally dry since catheter removed
PSA 23rd Oct.0.5 seeing Radiation Onocologist 31st Oct.
Started radiation treatment on 5th Dec, to continue until 24 Jan. 08.
Finished treatment, next PSA on 30th April.
PSA from 30th April 08, until now range- 0.5 to 0.6, I am now 70

BuiDoi
Regular Member


Date Joined Aug 2010
Total Posts : 227
   Posted 12/19/2010 8:17 PM (GMT -7)   

 

Folks - a researcher just sent me a copy of that 2007 investigation

For those interested - here are some chosen words from that report, that I mentioned.
To those convinced that there is nothing being studied to indicate ANY benefit, then this might show that scientists do see serious application for these types of treatments.
It is just such a shame that such investigation is left to academia, simply because the Big Pharma-Companies have NOTHING to make from such investigation.
If anyone would like a copy of the whole report - Just email me...

JOURNAL OF MEDICINAL FOOD
J Med Food 10 (2) 2007, 337?344
? Mary Ann Liebert, Inc. and Korean Society of Food Science and Nutrition
DOI: 10.1089/jmf.2006.292
Comparison of the Total Oxyradical Scavenging Capacity and Oxygen Radical
Absorbance Capacity Antioxidant Assays
David P. Tomer, Lee D. McLeman, Seiga Ohmine,
Philip M. Scherer, Byron K. Murray, and Kim L. O?Neill
Department of Microbiology and Molecular Biology, Brigham Young University, Provo, Utah

..............., many antioxidants, such as green tea polyphenols, quercitin, and -lipoic acid, inhibit inflammation, angiogenesis, and metastasis.1,7?13 In addition, quercitin, green tea, and grape seed extract can modulate cellular proliferation, cell cycle arrest, and apoptosis.1,2,4,9,14?16 Green tea has also been implicated in the metabolism of carcinogens.14,16?18.........The ORAC assay is widely accepted for measuring the antioxidant activity of phytochemicals.24....................The phytochemicals analyzed in this study were (1) lemon fruit, (2) citrus bioflavonoids, (3) pomegranate, (4) grape seed extract, (5) pine bark theraplant, (6) quercitin, (7) maritime pine bark extract (Pycnogenol?
, Horphag Research Ltd., Geneva, Switzerland), (8) grape skin extract, (9) rutin, (10) -lipoic acid, and (11) green tea polyphenols............Pomegranate, grape seed extract, and pine bark theraplant had moderately high TOSC values and moderately high ORAC values.
DISCUSSION
The measurement of antioxidant activity in vitro is the first step towards identifying the most promising phytochemicals for further in vivo
testing. High antioxidant activity has previously been reported for the compounds quercitin and rutin, suggesting that they may be promising
antioxidants.
19,31,34,35
The results of this study show quercitin to have moderately high antioxidant activity.
This study found pomegranate to have moderately low antioxidant activity, while Pycnogenol had moderately high antioxidant activity (Fig. 1). Pomegranate contains three major anthocyanidins (pelargonidin, cyanidin, and delphinidin), as well as catechins and ellagic acid, which is why its low antioxidant activity was surprising.
5,38 The water-soluble Pycnogenol (from fresh pine bark of Pinus maritima), however, consisted of condensed flavonoids (procyanidins and proanthocyanidins), as well as catechin, epicatechin, and taxifolin, which may explain why it exhibited higher antioxidant activity.
6,39
The in vitro
assays mentioned in this study (Fig. 1) consistently suggest that quercitin, Pycnogenol, grape skin extract, and green tea polyphenols have much higher antioxidant activity than Trolox, a hydrophilic vitamin E analog. Alternatively, lemon fruit and citrus  bioflavonoids have only low antioxidant activity.

Phytochemical        TOSC     ORAC
Lemon fruit                103         3,885
Citrus bioflavonoids 446         7,410
Pomegranate           1,543       22,530
Grape seed extract  2,294       37,125
Pine bark theraplant 2,608      59,483
Quercitin                     3,059       63,750
Pycnogenol               3,154       53,970
Grape skin extract     3,246       63,668

.

Post Edited (BuiDoi) : 12/19/2010 7:20:47 PM (GMT-7)


BuiDoi
Regular Member


Date Joined Aug 2010
Total Posts : 227
   Posted 12/19/2010 9:35 PM (GMT -7)   
Purgatory said...
On the pine-bark remark, ..................., no confirmed evidence of any medical value:

 
Thanks Purgatory - Interesting but as it says "Not Conclusive"..  That book is NOT yet closed
Thanks QAI - I'll have a look into those as well..   How sad that there is no Pharma-Money going into this stuff.
Although perhaps that would be bad, because they could produce something that was worth little, and sell it for a high price, and NATURALLY, make wild claims that could not be proved either way.
 
MalDugs  "Wow!! one line on how much pom juice to take, started a war...lol." 
No  -  I seriously hope not  --  We are all wallowing in our own world of PC , and there is so much going on in the background, with researchers finding new screening methods and looking for PC vacines..
Your question was FAR more complex that even you knew, and the bit that you left out was not HOW MUCH,  but  SHOULD...?
 
Pom-Juice is obviously the latest in the line of supplements, that pretty-much started with Pycnogenol, and after years of people praising the stuff , now we have 'Researchers' claiming that it can cause cancer, but strangely, they announce their finding is magazines and not in medical journals, where it might be open to Peer-Review.  As someone said - the big boys will do anything to discredit something that causes them Profit-Loss..
 
Surely. with us all looking for facts and details, surely we can find something that will help us, appart from a good shoulder to cry on..?
.
.
 
 

Casey59
Veteran Member


Date Joined Sep 2009
Total Posts : 3172
   Posted 12/19/2010 10:17 PM (GMT -7)   
questionaboutit said...I just hate to see anyone believe in this stuff and give up traditional medicine.

 

questionaboutit, this is something we strongly agree on...although I haven't seen anyone here at HW advocating the position you described. 

In my humble opinion, anyone who uses only alternative medicine techniques (and completely foregoes traditional medical approaches such as surgery, radiation, HT, etc) to combat prostate cancer is foolish.  At the same time, anyone who uses only traditional aggressive medical techniques (previously listed) without supplementing with integrative medicine techniques such as lifestyle changes (diet, exercise, stress reduction, etc) is also foolish.

Here's another way I've put this same point down on paper:  It’s absolutely baffling to think about what people will subject themselves to (surgery, radiation, chemical/hormone treatment) to stop or slow their cancer growth while not undertaking the less radical steps that are within their direct control to slow their cancer growth and prolong life…like diet, nutrition, exercise, etc. 

 

"Integrative Medicine."  Here's a nice thread from Tony (link) where he presented a link to a doctor in his area who treats patients holistically, not just traditionally, to maximize the potential of their outcomes.  Most major hospitals have programs now in Integrative Medicine.  Your average dietician in the Mayberry Community Hospital probably doesn't know much about it, however.

But you know what?  The fact is that integrative medicine is not for everyone.  Some people simply have too much "momentum" going in their lives and they are simply not ready, willing or able to change...despite what they've been through fighting prostate cancer.  Here's an interesting story on this topic told by Dr David Servan-Schreiber:

...By participating in certain programs...patients try to take charge of their cancer, to learn to live in greater harmony with their bodies and their past, to seek peace of mind through yoga and meditation, to choose foods that fight cancer while avoiding those that promote its development.  Their case histories show that they live two or three times longer than the average person with the same cancer at the same stage of development.

An oncologist friend at the University of Pittsburgh, whom I told about these figures, objected:  "These aren't ordinary patients.  They're better educated, more motivated, and in better health.  The fact that they live longer doesn't prove anything."  But that is precisely the point:  If patients are better informed about their disease, if they look after body and mind, and if they are given what they need to improve their health, then they can mobilize the body's vital functions to fight cancer.  They live better and for longer.

That IS the point.  Still, we hear people right here at HW who simply dig their heels further into the ground to resist change..."I'm gonna die someday anyhow, so gimme my Western diet staples of daily steak, white bread rolls and ice cream."  These guys would fall, I suppose (accordding to Dr. Servan-Schreiber's characterization), into a "less informed, less empowered" patient category.

 

For those who are open to something new to help affect the course of their PC, earlier in this thread (on page 2) I offered a pomegranate serving suggestion (photo included).  Tonight I have another festive (green & red) serving suggestion which I served tonight with our fish tacos:  Pomegranate Guacamole.  It was very good, and I have another photo...this photo I did take myself:

IMAGE

 

edit:  fix typos; fixed IMAGE link

Post Edited (Casey59) : 12/21/2010 12:05:03 PM (GMT-7)


BillyMac
Veteran Member


Date Joined Feb 2008
Total Posts : 1821
   Posted 12/19/2010 11:10 PM (GMT -7)   
Casey59 said...






That IS the point. Still, we hear people right here at HW who simply dig their heels further into the ground to resist change..."I'm gonna die someday anyhow, so gimme my daily steak, white bread rolls and ice cream." These guys fall into the "less informed, less empowered" patient category.



Why, oh why would you claim that those who want their steak, white bread rolls and ice cream are less informed and less empowered than those who have chosen otherwise. Perhaps the thought of fish tacos turns their stomach, no matter how you dress it up to make it more palatable. They know and understand what their choices mean and making such a choice is every bit as valid and empowering as your own. Many would argue that they are here to thoroughly enjoy their life, not put up with eating endless tasteless concoctions in order to add a few more years in their dotage.

Post Edited (BillyMac) : 12/19/2010 10:13:53 PM (GMT-7)


Casey59
Veteran Member


Date Joined Sep 2009
Total Posts : 3172
   Posted 12/19/2010 11:19 PM (GMT -7)   
BillyMac said...Many would argue that they are here to thoroughly enjoy their life, not put up with eating endless tasteless concoctions in order to add a few more years in their dotage.
 
Awww...   I'm disappointed, you obviously didn't look at IMAGE I posted above of the delicious Pomegranate Guacamole.   And I highly recommend the Grande brand of multigrain chips shown in the background...they are excellent.  Of course, the Black & Tan I chased it down with was pretty tasty, too.
 
[Clearly you also didn't read the Dr Servan-Schreiber passage I took the time to quote for you, either.]

maldugs
Veteran Member


Date Joined Jun 2007
Total Posts : 670
   Posted Yesterday 2:36 AM (GMT -7)   
Hi I am not even slightly under the assumption that pomegranate juice can cure Pca, just wanted to experiment to see if it affects my PSA reading, I would never discontinue normal modern medicine, at any stage, I have been through the grinder of RRP and IMRT, I have great hope that I will die of something else, I am quite stable at the moment, happy and secure, just wanted to try something else, thanks Billy mate, been on this forum for three and a half years, it used to be a source of great support and teaching, don't like the way it is looking, hi David.

Mal.
age 67 PSA 5.8 DRE slightly firm Rt
Biopsy 2nd July 07 5 out of 12 positive
Gleason 3+4=7 right side tumour adenocarcinoma stage T2a
RP on 30th July,

Post op Pathology, tumour stage T3a 4+3=7, microcsopic evidence of capsular penetration, seminal vessels, bladder neck,are free of tumour, lymph nodes clear, no evidence of metastatic malignancy, tumour does not extend to the apical margins.

Post op PSA 0.5 26th Sept. Totally dry since catheter removed
PSA 23rd Oct.0.5 seeing Radiation Onocologist 31st Oct.
Started radiation treatment on 5th Dec, to continue until 24 Jan. 08.
Finished treatment, next PSA on 30th April.
PSA from 30th April 08, until now range- 0.5 to 0.6, I am now 70

BillyMac
Veteran Member


Date Joined Feb 2008
Total Posts : 1821
   Posted Yesterday 4:26 AM (GMT -7)   
Mal, now all the furore has died down I'll add a few more comments. Following my op 3-1/2 years ago I read some of the data on pomegranate juice and green tea. I also read up on the claims for modified citrus pectin. As well I did a little research on a supposed Chinese immune system booster called Astragalus. I used them all for about 18 months and then discontinued all bar the pomegranate juice and green tea. As I mentioned before I had reasonably serious pathology coming out of the op and I shall never know if any of this helped but so far so good ----- it certainly has not done me any harm. I am not a fan of concentrated supplements and prefer to take my goodies just as nature intended. It does not follow that if something is good for you then 10 times as much must be 10 times as good. Try that with a few of the vitamins and see how you end up. Does tea help prevent prostate cancer ----- didn't help this prodigious tea drinker but then I preferred black with milk and sugar. For the last three years I have drunk green tea (but it has got to be strong and with sugar) drinking about 5 cups a day. I have always been and still am a very big fruit eater ----- bananas, apples, strawberries, blueberries, lychees, kiwifruit, peaches , nectarines and mangoes. Not fond of citrus though. I don't eat a lot of red meat (if I do it's usually pork) but do like chicken. Fish is completely off my menu (I dislike the taste and texture) apart from canned red salmon. Prawns, crab, lobster, oysters and bugs and other crustaceans are most definitely on the plate. Have a go at the pomegranate juice it sure won't hurt and what a pleasant surprise it will be if you see some sort of beneficial effect. Like I said early in the thread, Woolworths has the Bickford brand for about the $5-00 a litre mark. I have also seen the POM brand there but it was near twice the price for the same amount. I look forward to seeing you post low PSA's for the next 15 years at least.
smilewinkgrin
Bill

Post Edited (BillyMac) : 12/20/2010 3:34:37 AM (GMT-7)


BuiDoi
Regular Member


Date Joined Aug 2010
Total Posts : 227
   Posted Yesterday 2:12 PM (GMT -7)   

Thanks - BillyMac - I agree with most of what you say, EXCEPT that as a technical person, I consider that goodness can be attributed to specific things in the food and therefore it must be possible to identify what that is and to concentrate that into a recommended does.
The reality is (and recognised by laboratory testing) you cannot drink enough Green Tea to really make a therapeutic difference..  GOOD or BAD
That is not saying that it is NOT good for you -- Ita Vero -- It obviously is, but when it comes to the likes of Pom-Juice, it's the other things (like Fructose/Sugar) that add to the goodness issue..  Almost NO research supports the consumption of sugar, and some say that Fructose is somehow worse that Sucrose... . . . confused
Confusing, aint it !

Thanks QAI for the links - I have had a read and feel compelled to make observations
( Buggar - They scream aloud ! )

Do antioxidants really work? | Dr. Sean Hashmi, M.D., M.S.

http://tagza.com/Health_Fitness/Do_antioxidants_really_work__Dr-_Sean_Hashmi_M-D-_M-S-/

2004 and talking about Vit A,C,E,BetCar, and Selenium

We are generally NOT talking about (these) VITAMINS !

Antioxidants and Cancer: The Jury's Still Out

http://www5.cancer.org/docroot/NWS/content/NWS_2_1x_Antioxidants_and_Cancer_The_Jurys_Still_Out.asp

"Antioxidant supplementation may actually cause harm in terms of increased risk of new disease or interference with treatment of existing disease," Seifried writes.

"Antioxidants may also act differently in tumor cells than in normal cells, and doctors don't really know which amount, if any, is the right amount when it comes to antioxidants given along with chemotherapy or radiation therapy. There are even some concerns that antioxidants might be harmful when given with cancer treatment because they may help the cancer cells repair themselves."

2008 and concentrating on VitE + Selenium, both of which have been proven to have minimal benefit, but a benefit.

Antioxidants Encourage Cancer in Some Cases, Study Says

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2009/08/090819-antioxidants-cancer.html


The researchers, meanwhile, noticed that the normal, detached cells without the cancer gene were being damaged by naturally occurring free radicals.

Depending on the circumstances, an antioxidant compound can either have tumor-causing or tumor-killing effects, added Lawenda, clinical director of the radiation oncology division at the Naval Medical Center

But it's too early to jump to conclusions that antioxidants are bad, study leader Schafer pointed out.

This was just a study on one cell line, and more work is needed, for example, using cells inside animals and testing different types of cells, he said.

Also, the high antioxidant concentration used in the study is unlikely to be achieved in the human body by simply eating antioxidant-rich foods or vitamins.

Cancer Patients Should Steer Clear of Antioxidants

Research review suggests they may help cancer cells resist chemo, radiation

http://health.usnews.com/health-news/family-health/articles/2008/05/27/cancer-patients-should-steer-clear-of-antioxidants.html

Although multivitamins may be all right in some cases, even green tea and vitamin A or E supplements can spell trouble, said review author Dr. Brian Lawenda, clinical director of radiation oncology at Naval Medical Center in San Diego.

The supplements "may decrease the effectiveness of radiation or chemotherapy or even make the toxicities of these treatments worse," Lawenda said. "I would recommend that you do not take these agents during chemo or radiation."

According to Lawenda, many cancer patients take supplements and green tea because they think antioxidants will help their treatment. Antioxidants are generally considered healthy because they help protect cells against threats in the body.

But researchers have questioned the conventional wisdom, wondering whether antioxidants might actually harm cancer patients during treatment.

Still, "we don't know whether even a multivitamin is OK to take," he added. "We don't know if even the USDA levels are acceptable. We just don't know the answers to so many questions, unfortunately."

"Since there's been little evidence on the subject, I've tended to be laissez-faire about it, figuring it probably couldn't hurt," he said. "This article suggests that it seems a little bit more likely that it's more harmful than helpful."

Questioning the Safety of Certain 'Healthful' Plant-Based Antioxidants

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/09/100908111457.htm

ScienceDaily (Sep. 8, 2010) ? Scientists are calling for more research on the possibility that some supposedly healthful plant-based antioxidants -- including those renowned for their apparent ability to prevent cancer -- may actually aggravate or even cause cancer in some individuals.

Kuan-Chou Chen, Robert Peng, and colleagues note that vegetables, fruits, and other plant-based foods are rich in antioxidants that appear to fight cancer, diabetes, heart disease, and other disorders. Among those antioxidants is quercetin, especially abundant in onions and black tea, and ferulic acid, found in corn, tomatoes, and rice bran. Both also are ingredients in certain herbal remedies and dietary supplements. But questions remain about the safety and effectiveness of some antioxidants, with research suggesting that quercetin could contribute to the development of cancer, the scientists note.

They found that diabetic laboratory rats fed either quercetin or ferulic acid developed more advanced forms of kidney cancer, and concluded the two antioxidants appear to aggravate or possibly cause kidney cancer.

My Observations:

It is difficult to be truly critical of these articles because there is little that has not been previously described.
Ironically , the writers seem to be having a two way bet.  They all seem to say that Anti-Oxidants are GOOD for you, but MAY/MIGHT/Under certain Circumstances/Could have issues.  Do have a read and decide for yourselves..
All these articles suffer from similar issues.  Some are based on ordinary VITAMINS and NOT those that are being considered in the supplements like OPC.
Some of the comments are rather old and "Speculative" of what might be, and yet later clinical studies have found differently.
Some are serious comments, but made in unusual ways -- ie. in magazines, where the writers are not subject to Peer-Review.

Ironically, hidden in the supposed research are little comments that suggest a conflict within the researcher's minds...
"Kuan-Chou Chen, Robert Peng, and colleagues note that vegetables, fruits, and other plant-based foods are rich in antioxidants that appear to fight cancer, diabetes, heart disease, and other disorders."
"Since there's been little evidence on the subject, I've tended to be laissez-faire about it, figuring it probably couldn't hurt,"


The irony is that other researchers have withheld from speculation, and actually done In-vitro testing and have come to the opposite conclusion.

The dilemma for US, challenged by OUR situations, is that we do not really want to wait for 10 years for the needed In-Vivo studies to be undertaken.
Supplements are big business, and there is little to guarantee which ones should be taken.
In Australia there is a product touted to be the all-round fix-it -- NatureBee..  A simple capsule of FLOWER POLLEN.
It is said to contain EVERY Mineral and Vitamin, needed by mankind.
People swear by it, and yet they cannot say why.  It is such a small amount of Plant Material, one wonders how it can be so very beneficial.
I, would prefer to eat the Honey that it goes to make.

So, thanks to  QAI , but I can't see anything more in the presentations, than exist in those presentations of the Supplement Industry, and we are already skeptical about them.

I keep referring to the testimonials of those that I trust, and also recognise that everything in life comes without Guarantees.
There will NEVER be a 100% guarantee of anything.   My surgeon was absolutely sure that he would REMOVE my cancer, but only offered a 95% guarantee.
 
None of this is intended to anger anyone.  .. .. :-) . . Don't take it personally. 
This is not a war, and we are seeking answers equally as important to many, as  WHICH SURGEON   !
 
To those who want to place their trust in the advice of their doctors, then do just that, but please don't call us Snake-Oil peddlers because we are prepared to accept that Aspro DID come from tree bark
.
.

Post Edited (BuiDoi) : 12/20/2010 3:05:42 PM (GMT-7)


James C.
Veteran Member


Date Joined Aug 2007
Total Posts : 4454
   Posted Yesterday 3:30 PM (GMT -7)   
Well, since most of the major protagonists of the great supplements war agree that there's no real scientific results available, and that the majority of what we know is based on non-scientific studies by the manufacturers, or in the general mainstream media reports or years old now-debunked research and such, maybe it's time to "AGREE TO DISAGREE", as there's not much further to discuss, other than a restating and rehashing of the same arguments. If we are just going around in circles and throwing up search cites and links, maybe our time would be more useful in some other way? Hey, it's just a thought... devil Ahem, there's always the option of taking it to email or even opening up the chat room to discuss this.
blush devil smhair cool cool cool cool , etc, etc, etc smilewinkgrin
James C. Age 63
Gonna Make Myself A Better Man tinyurl.com/28e8qcg
4/07: PSA 7.6, 7/07 Biopsy: 3 of 16 PCa, 5% involved, left lobe, GS6
9/07: Nerve Sparing open RRP, Path: pT2c, 110 gms., all clear except:
Probable microscopic involvement of the left apical margin -GS6
3 Years: PSA's .04 each test until 04/10-.06, 09/10-.09- Uh-Oh, next in Feb.
ED-total-Bimix 30cc

BuiDoi
Regular Member


Date Joined Aug 2010
Total Posts : 227
   Posted Yesterday 4:27 PM (GMT -7)   
James C. said...
Well, since most of the major protagonists of the great supplements war agree that there's no real scientific results available, and that the majority of what we know is based on non-scientific studies by the manufacturers, or in the general mainstream media reports or years old now-debunked research and such, maybe it's time to "AGREE TO DISAGREE",
Boy, it's clear that some don't actually read the references that are provided, becasue if you did , then you would see that there is a great deal of proper, and ongoing, scientific research.
We are trying to skirt around the Manufacturers-Sales-Pitches, and the Pseudo-Scientists attempting to "Publish-or-Perrish" by publishing in a National-Geo magazine..
 
 
In fact there is a brand new post that raises other legitimate research, and this has nothing to do with manufacturers (or Anti-Oxidants)..  
 
So - does it matter that we keep searching, and talking ?
.
.

James C.
Veteran Member


Date Joined Aug 2007
Total Posts : 4454
   Posted Yesterday 4:48 PM (GMT -7)   
Well, actually, I have read every link posted here. I find it is just a mismash of confusing words on a page. I see nothing convincing, final or definite that proves anything to me. All I see it boils down to is he said/ she said, with lots of hope, hoopla and very little data that anyone can sink their teeth into. Maybe it's just me, I probably lack the vision and zeal of a true believer, for either the pro or con side of it. I just don't see the 'proper, and ongoing, scientific research' that you and a few others do. Does it matter if I am a skeptic? ? Nope, not in the least. Should further talk and searching continue? By all means, if anything new is being learned or discussed, let 'er rip. As it is, most of this thread is just revolving in a circle, feeding on itself. But that's just my opinion. Everyone proceed on, if you wish, and pay no attention to the rabble-rouser behind the curtain. tongue
James C. Age 63
Gonna Make Myself A Better Man tinyurl.com/28e8qcg
4/07: PSA 7.6, 7/07 Biopsy: 3 of 16 PCa, 5% involved, left lobe, GS6
9/07: Nerve Sparing open RRP, Path: pT2c, 110 gms., all clear except:
Probable microscopic involvement of the left apical margin -GS6
3 Years: PSA's .04 each test until 04/10-.06, 09/10-.09- Uh-Oh, next in Feb.
ED-total-Bimix 30cc

compiler
Veteran Member


Date Joined Nov 2009
Total Posts : 5428
   Posted Yesterday 5:03 PM (GMT -7)   
James:
 
Good post there -- an excellent characterization of this topic. But...haven't we kind of exhausted this topic, at least for now?
 
Mel

Purgatory
Elite Member


Date Joined Oct 2008
Total Posts : 24403
   Posted Yesterday 5:27 PM (GMT -7)   
James, very well said, you got my thumbs up on your last two posts on the subject.
Age: 58, 56 dx, PSA: 7/07 5.8, 10/08 16.3
3rd Biopsy: 9/08 7 of 7 Positive, 40-90%, Gleason 4+3
open RP: 11/08, on catheters for 101 days
Path Rpt: Gleason 3+4, pT2c, 42g, 20% cancer, 1 pos marg
Incont & ED: None
Post Surgery PSA: 2/09 .05,5/09 .1, 6/09 .11. 8/09 .16
Post SRT PSA: 1/10 .12, 4/8 .04, 8/6 .06 11/10 Not taking it
Latest: 6 Corr Surgeries to Bladder Neck, SP Catheter since 10/1/9, SRT 39 Sess/72 gy ended 11/09, 21 Catheters, Ileal Conduit Surgery 9/23/10

gibson00
Regular Member


Date Joined Nov 2009
Total Posts : 203
   Posted Today 11:44 AM (GMT -7)   
>>Phytochemical TOSC ORAC
>>Lemon fruit 103 3,885
>>Citrus bioflavonoids 446 7,410
>>Pomegranate 1,543 22,530
>>Grape seed extract 2,294 37,125
>>Pine bark theraplant 2,608 59,483
>>Quercitin 3,059 63,750
>>Pycnogenol 3,154 53,970
>>Grape skin extract 3,246 63,668

I'm pretty skeptical about all this stuff....lately my belief is that an alkaline, healthy diet (lots of green juice, kale, etc.), is the best for the body.
However, if you are into taking supplements/drinks, the Quercitin mentioned in the above chart is available in FRS supplements. A few friends of mine and I (bike racers) use them daily, the concentrate liquid, for energy. It is basically a Quercitin and Vitamin B supplement.
I don't think it would be any more expensive than drinking POM each day, and you can get auto delivery, etc.
They have a sugar free concentrate, so zero cals, which is what I use.
Anyway, just another option.

Cheers

Purgatory
Elite Member


Date Joined Oct 2008
Total Posts : 24403
   Posted Today 12:40 PM (GMT -7)   
billy mac, even in casey's last post - his opinion on these foods were overpowering - the my way is the only right way, and if you dont agree, you are somewhat lesser. i refuse to buy into it. with the other food opinions, its is just that: a personal preference and opinion. i thought the pictures posted looked ghastly, no way I would eat that stuff. but thats just my opinion. sprinkling pomegrantes over the top, doesnt make it appeal to me, would have gone right in the trash can.

a heart healthy diet, no smoking, light drinking (if any) and moderation in all things: that's what i buy into personally.

good post, billy mac


david in sc
Age: 58, 56 dx, PSA: 7/07 5.8, 10/08 16.3
3rd Biopsy: 9/08 7 of 7 Positive, 40-90%, Gleason 4+3
open RP: 11/08, on catheters for 101 days
Path Rpt: Gleason 3+4, pT2c, 42g, 20% cancer, 1 pos marg
Incont & ED: None
Post Surgery PSA: 2/09 .05,5/09 .1, 6/09 .11. 8/09 .16
Post SRT PSA: 1/10 .12, 4/8 .04, 8/6 .06 11/10 Not taking it
Latest: 6 Corr Surgeries to Bladder Neck, SP Catheter since 10/1/9, SRT 39 Sess/72 gy ended 11/09, 21 Catheters, Ileal Conduit Surgery 9/23/10
New Topic Locked Topic Printable Version
97 posts in this thread.
Viewing Page :
 1  2  3  4 
Forum Information
Currently it is Sunday, December 21, 2014 5:48 PM (GMT -7)
There are a total of 2,301,799 posts in 255,565 threads.
View Active Threads


Who's Online
This forum has 159836 registered members. Please welcome our newest member, byron986.
294 Guest(s), 22 Registered Member(s) are currently online.  Details
1 day at a time, Hawaii-Guy, Jerry L., robertC, MEH180, zengrrl, Almost a 10, camas, blueglass, Flip Flop, TrainGuy, LiamsGram, InTheShop, nvrthesame98, Massdepress, Traveler, Lele, Bik31, Squirm, Albanian, Jessica D, Cornell


Follow HealingWell.com on Facebook  Follow HealingWell.com on Twitter  Follow HealingWell.com on Pinterest  Follow HealingWell.com on YouTube
Advertisement
Advertisement

©1996-2014 HealingWell.com LLC  All rights reserved.

Advertise | Privacy Policy & Disclaimer