What does isotonic mean

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compiler
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Date Joined Nov 2009
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   Posted 1/17/2011 7:58 AM (GMT -7)   
One of the supplements I'm trying (OPCXTRA) bills itself as ISOTONIC. The definitions I've seen are confusing (brain fog on my part?).
 
Can someone explain in simple understandable English the meaning of isotonic
 
Mel

Sonny3
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Date Joined Aug 2009
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   Posted 1/17/2011 8:16 AM (GMT -7)   
Try this one,

Isotonic solution: A solution that has the same salt concentration as the normal cells of the body and the blood. As opposed to a hypertonic solution or a hypotonic solution. An isotonic beverage may be drunk to replace the fluid and minerals which the body uses during physical activity.

Sonny

natural44
Regular Member


Date Joined Dec 2010
Total Posts : 172
   Posted 1/17/2011 8:40 AM (GMT -7)   
ISO = same..... isometric exercises means you are working both sides equally so as Sonny said it usually refers to a solution or medication meaning it is the same as the salt concentration in the body so it does not "travel" very fast or slow into the system..so neither a fast acting nor long acting med most likely
age 44 when diagnosed 45 now
RRP 9-28-10
gleason 3+3=6
pathology report all clear
11-1-10 PSA 0.02
3 month PSA 0.00
bladder control 3 weeks post cath. removal!
Osbon pump works great!
some noctural erections stated 12-01-10
5mg Cialis daily 1-3-11 able to get short semi erections(60-75%) with effort daily

compiler
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Date Joined Nov 2009
Total Posts : 5349
   Posted 1/17/2011 11:44 AM (GMT -7)   
Thanks -- both great explanations!
 
Mel

Purgatory
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Date Joined Oct 2008
Total Posts : 24336
   Posted 1/17/2011 12:15 PM (GMT -7)   
I am not encouraging the use of this product, but you didn't look too far, this is from Opcxtra's own web page:

"Isotonic Formula - Tears, blood plasma, lymph and other body fluids are all isotonic.

Isotonic is used to describe solutions for human consumption, it means of the same fluid pressure as body fluids. Tears, blood plasma, lymph and other body fluids are all isotonic. The solutions of food that enter the small intestine for absorption and utilization are made isotonic in the stomach by the body. "
Age: 58, 56 dx, PSA: 7/07 5.8, 10/08 16.3
3rd Biopsy: 9/08 7 of 7 Positive, 40-90%, Gleason 4+3
open RP: 11/08, on catheters for 101 days
Path Rpt: Gleason 3+4, pT2c, 42g, 20% cancer, 1 pos marg
Incont & ED: None
Post Surgery PSA: 2/09 .05,5/09 .1, 6/09 .11. 8/09 .16
Post SRT PSA: 1/10 .12, 4/8 .04, 8/6 .06 11/10 Not taking it
Latest: 6 Corr Surgeries to Bladder Neck, SP Catheter since 10/1/9, SRT 39 Sess/72 gy ended 11/09, 21 Catheters, Ileal Conduit Surgery 9/23/10

compiler
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Date Joined Nov 2009
Total Posts : 5349
   Posted 1/17/2011 12:51 PM (GMT -7)   
David:
 
Glad that was clear to you. I did read that and it just wasn't clear what they meant when they described the product itself as isotonic. The other answers on HW were much clearer to me. Maybe I'm just slow on the concept as I did not realize it meant that the substance is neither fast nor slow acting.
 
We know you don't endorse any of this. You have made that clear time and again. Neither do I and I hope its been made clear that skeptical moi is going to try a bunch of this stuff (ie: OPC, D-3, fish oil, pomegranite, etc. etc. etc.) until I get my next PSA result in about 4 weeks. I fully expect the numbers to keep rising at pretty much the same rate. It would be nice to for once get a pleasant surprise.
 
Mel

Purgatory
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Date Joined Oct 2008
Total Posts : 24336
   Posted 1/17/2011 1:10 PM (GMT -7)   
Mel,

For the sake of argument, you take a bunch of stuff (as you said above) and it makes a drop in the PSA on the next reading. Now you would have to decide, which, if any, of the stuff really reduced the PSA, or it some, or any of the stuff was just masking the true number.

The thing you never answered clearly to me, and it really has nothing to do with the Opcxtra, is since you are at a critical point with a rising PSA, you are getting close to having to decide if you do indeed have BCR, and that your might very well need SRT, with or without HT (the a whole other subject in itself), then wouldn't the most logical thing to do, since you need utter accuracy, is not to injest anything that could alter the actual PSA number at this point. Am I missing something here? It seems simple enough to my sense of logic. THat you don't want any other variables in the mix at this time, anything that could change the natural outcome of the PSA.

If it were me, and it was me at one point in the past, that is how I would feel.

Just my unqualified opinion.

David
Age: 58, 56 dx, PSA: 7/07 5.8, 10/08 16.3
3rd Biopsy: 9/08 7 of 7 Positive, 40-90%, Gleason 4+3
open RP: 11/08, on catheters for 101 days
Path Rpt: Gleason 3+4, pT2c, 42g, 20% cancer, 1 pos marg
Incont & ED: None
Post Surgery PSA: 2/09 .05,5/09 .1, 6/09 .11. 8/09 .16
Post SRT PSA: 1/10 .12, 4/8 .04, 8/6 .06 11/10 Not taking it
Latest: 6 Corr Surgeries to Bladder Neck, SP Catheter since 10/1/9, SRT 39 Sess/72 gy ended 11/09, 21 Catheters, Ileal Conduit Surgery 9/23/10

compiler
Veteran Member


Date Joined Nov 2009
Total Posts : 5349
   Posted 1/17/2011 2:34 PM (GMT -7)   
David:
 
Believe me, I have thought about these questions, and they are very good questions. My understanding is that PSA will continue to reflect cancer activity. In other words, IF the PSA goes down (I know, VERY UNLIKELY) then it LEGITIMATELY reflects the cancer activity. You keep implying that any drop (let's assume due to my new regimen) is just masking an PC increase. From everything I've read, that is NOT TRUE. So, I claim that I will still be getting accuracy with the PSA test. For example, the claim made for XXX (say anti-oxidents) is that it has anti-cancer activity, not that it will mask a rising PSA  (note that certain drugs like avodart WILL mask a rising PSA, especially for those who still have a prostate, but even then the urologists claim to be able to adjust for that -- they double the PSA obtained).
 
By your logic, I should do nothing. Why go to a more heart healthy diet? Why do more exercise? It's the same thing, UNLESS you believe that such substances ARTIFICIALLY lower your PSA, thereby masking the activity. I've seen no such claims, other than your postings. IF that were true, then your point is valid.
 
Now, in terms of what is causing the drop, I guess I'd have to think more about it when that happens. Most likely I would have no clue and I would just continue doing what I'm doing.
 
Also, I love your anti-exercise thread. It's a lot of fun. But surely you don't really advocate being a couch potato and really eating poorly (I know you have often advocated a heart-healthy diet and I totally agree with you there). I would assume as you recover more and more that you will just naturally be more active. I HOPE that thread is tongue-in-cheek. It is really very well done!
 
Mel

Purgatory
Elite Member


Date Joined Oct 2008
Total Posts : 24336
   Posted 1/17/2011 2:42 PM (GMT -7)   
I never said you should do nothing. That's not apples to apples in this conversation. Ultimately, and I respect it, we each have to do what we think we should do. You are making your own choices, as you should. There have been plenty of supplements that have masked PSA readings over the years, you claim there aren't any?

David
Age: 58, 56 dx, PSA: 7/07 5.8, 10/08 16.3
3rd Biopsy: 9/08 7 of 7 Positive, 40-90%, Gleason 4+3
open RP: 11/08, on catheters for 101 days
Path Rpt: Gleason 3+4, pT2c, 42g, 20% cancer, 1 pos marg
Incont & ED: None
Post Surgery PSA: 2/09 .05,5/09 .1, 6/09 .11. 8/09 .16
Post SRT PSA: 1/10 .12, 4/8 .04, 8/6 .06 11/10 Not taking it
Latest: 6 Corr Surgeries to Bladder Neck, SP Catheter since 10/1/9, SRT 39 Sess/72 gy ended 11/09, 21 Catheters, Ileal Conduit Surgery 9/23/10

Piano
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Date Joined Apr 2008
Total Posts : 846
   Posted 1/17/2011 2:43 PM (GMT -7)   
I am in a similar situation to Mel, so think my thought processes about this are similar to his. He is looking at radiation, I am looking at ADT -- neither very pleasant treatments. Anything we can do to slow down the PSA rise will stave off treatment for a bit longer, or in the case of a miracle, remove the need for treatment altogether.

David, I understand your point about masking PSA, but it's a risk I am prepared to take. My view is that PSA generally is a proxy for the PCa itself, and assume that any rise or fall in PSA reflects what is happening to the PCa. There is a (slim?) chance that that something I take may mask the PSA, but I'm happy to run that risk.
No symptoms; PSA 5.7; Gleason 4+5=9; cancer in 4/12 cores
Non-nerve-sparing RRP 7 March 2008 age 63
Organ confined, neg margins. Gleason downgrade 4+4=8
Fully continent
Bimix worked well; now using just VED
PSA undetectable at first but now 0.3, doubling time 7 months
No radiation but ADT coming unless I can slow down the rise...

compiler
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Date Joined Nov 2009
Total Posts : 5349
   Posted 1/17/2011 3:01 PM (GMT -7)   
David:
 
I'm not aware of any supplement that masks PSA. You sound like this is commonplace knowledge, so please inform me.
 
It is known that certain drugs DO mask the PSA. As I've indicated, drugs like avodart and proscar do this and doctors are aware of it. They generally double the PSA when someone (with a prostate) is on those drugs. It is said that anti-inflammatories MIGHT mask a PSA FOR THOSE WITH A PROSTATE. In fact, folks with prostatitis or a UTI are often advised not to get a PSA test until the other problem is resolved.
 
Shortly after my surgery, I had a nasty UTI. I was also due to get a PSA. I asked about 4 doctors about this, including the Ford specialists. They ALL said that I should get the PSA and it would be accurate. In other words, it's a new ballgame without a prostate.
 
Mel

142
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Date Joined Jan 2010
Total Posts : 5953
   Posted 1/17/2011 3:01 PM (GMT -7)   
Mel,
 
Not to speak for or against the potential benefits of any of the things you are going to try, I tend to agree with the logic to change a few things (or better, only one thing) at a time so you can better see if it makes a difference. Too many years working on computers and changing parts, then having to sort out which one was really broken have left me in the "one thing at a time" mindset.
 
I am taking extra vitamin D, after my GP did the test, and said it was a bit low. In March (next blood work the insurance will pay for - $700 out of pocket is a budget breaker), we will see what that does.
 
I also use the Pomgranite mix juices alternated with cherry, but these are to replace the morning Orange juice that sets off my bladder. I liked OJ a lot more, but ....
 
It is like the Tetracycline / Doxycycline thread - I've been taking one or the other all my adult life. If they work, then maybe that is why I have not seen bone mets yet. If I do see bone mets, will it be because my dose was not high enough, or that they would be worse otherwise?  I suspect I will get to the end of the road when I get there, not a day before, and not a day after.
 
 

compiler
Veteran Member


Date Joined Nov 2009
Total Posts : 5349
   Posted 1/17/2011 3:13 PM (GMT -7)   
I42:
 
I don't disagree. But I am making a last ditch feeble attempt here, with a PSA test looming in 30 days. So, I'm throwing all this stuff at it. Maybe something will stick.
 
I think the odds are 20:1 against me. So, most likely, I will be doing SRT. I'm not sure if I will continue all the supplements should that occur. I still might on the notion that these things take a long time to work. But, on the other hand, deep down I agree with David that there is more hype than anything else and so much of this is unproven. First XXX is good for you and then a study comes out contradicting that.
 
A good example of this is flaxseed. That was THE thing. Now, suddenly the flaxseed OIL is quite BAD for the PC but the ground flaxseed is GOOD. However, even that is now called into question.
 
It really is a very confusing subject
 
Mel

Purgatory
Elite Member


Date Joined Oct 2008
Total Posts : 24336
   Posted 1/17/2011 3:19 PM (GMT -7)   
Piano, I completely respect your answer and position, at least you acknowledge (not to me, that's not needed) that there is a risk, but you are willing to take it. I think most of our PC related decisions are made that way. When I consented to SRT, it was a tough decision, because of my past bad experience with RT, and unfortunately for me, my worse fears came true with SRT in my case. I know you have tough choices ahead too, and there is no easy one-fit answer for you, me or anyone else.

142, or...extending your own logic with your own case, if you see bone mets (and I pray you never do), they may have developed with or without your intervention with other means. For many, its the nature progression of advanced cancer, unfortunately.

Mel: start with the American Cancer Society. They have a great booklet dealing with prostate cancer, and a lot of space dealing with the effectiveness (or lack of it) concerning many things talked about here, including exercise, diet, supplements, etc. Some of it might be eye openers for some.
Age: 58, 56 dx, PSA: 7/07 5.8, 10/08 16.3
3rd Biopsy: 9/08 7 of 7 Positive, 40-90%, Gleason 4+3
open RP: 11/08, on catheters for 101 days
Path Rpt: Gleason 3+4, pT2c, 42g, 20% cancer, 1 pos marg
Incont & ED: None
Post Surgery PSA: 2/09 .05,5/09 .1, 6/09 .11. 8/09 .16
Post SRT PSA: 1/10 .12, 4/8 .04, 8/6 .06 11/10 Not taking it
Latest: 6 Corr Surgeries to Bladder Neck, SP Catheter since 10/1/9, SRT 39 Sess/72 gy ended 11/09, 21 Catheters, Ileal Conduit Surgery 9/23/10

John T
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Date Joined Nov 2008
Total Posts : 3760
   Posted 1/17/2011 7:09 PM (GMT -7)   
Advovart and Proscar do not actually mask psa, although it is commonly refered to as masking. They both shrink the prostate and the psa associated with benign prostate tissue drops accordingly. In some cases Proscar and Adovart will shrink the tumor or slow its growth by cutting off the testesterone that makes it grow; this will also cause a drop in psa. After proscar stabalizes the prostate size a new base line is established and most likely any psa increases after that are due to PC and not prostate growth. They have an effect on the prostate and in some cases the tumor which are then reflected in the psa.
I would guess some supplements work in the same fashion. Psa is a marker that is produced by prostate tissue and prostate cancer. It's only going to change if something in the prostate or the number of cancer cells change. In some cases psa is elevated because of an unidentified infection in the prostate tissue. Some supplements and meds can reduce this infection and thereby reduce psa. They may also slow cancer cells rate of growth, but there is no evidence one way or another to support this.
JT
65 years old, rising psa for 10 years from 4 to 40; 12 biopsies and MRIS all negative. Oct 2009 DXed with G6 <5%. Color Doppler biopsy found 2.5 cm G4+3. Combidex clear. Seeds and IMRT, no side affects and psa .1 at 1.5 years.

James C.
Veteran Member


Date Joined Aug 2007
Total Posts : 4454
   Posted 1/18/2011 9:06 AM (GMT -7)   
I deleted the last 2 posts here, no need for rudeness. Supplements discussion appears to be the kryponite of this Forum. Keep the thread on the subject and not on any personal issues, guys.
James C. Age 63
Gonna Make Myself A Better Man tinyurl.com/28e8qcg
4/07: PSA 7.6, 7/07 Biopsy: 3 of 16 PCa, 5% involved, left lobe, GS6
9/07: Nerve Sparing open RP, Path: pT2c, 110 gms., clear except:
Probable microscopic involvement-left apical margin -GS6
3 Years: PSA's .04 each test until 04/10-.06, 09/10-.09, 01/11-.09
ED-total-Bimix 30cc
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