Gat Goren Method

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andyaction
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Date Joined May 2012
Total Posts : 48
   Posted 6/3/2012 5:50 PM (GMT -6)   
Sorry for the delay in replying... In answer

Yes, they were very helpful. However Dr Gats English is only fair... and his office staff are perhaps at a similar level. But, once you have established communication, it should go smoothly. It took me a few weeks or so to get the appointment set up and get over to Israel. This was because I chose to have all the blood tests here in the UK. - and this could answer jds question.. my tests were ok, I'm not sure of anything to disqualify them carrying out the procedure but if you fail the Hepatitis or HIV tests this may not be acceptable or it may cost more for the procedure if they have to take precautions over and above the norm.

Cody, telephone their office and leave a message.. they will get back to you I'm sure.

With regard to sexual function... no real change.. but unlike surgical procedures, you can still cum.

Overall, still improving.

I've spoken to another two men - one from LA and the other an Israeli, who've both had the procedure and are reporting improvements.

JD, After having the procedure on a Monday afternoon, I left the hospital within the hour and following a checkip on the Wednesday, I flew home on the Thursday morning. No problems!!!

jdrower
New Member


Date Joined Apr 2012
Total Posts : 12
   Posted 6/6/2012 5:02 AM (GMT -6)   
Hi Andy
Glad it worked out and the plumbing works as well as can be expected.

Were you fully conscious during the procedure? If so, were you able to see what they were doing?

How about prostate size? Too soon to tell if there's been a positive effect there?

Best of continued health,
JD

andyaction
Regular Member


Date Joined May 2012
Total Posts : 48
   Posted 6/6/2012 2:06 PM (GMT -6)   
JD

Yes, fully awake, the procedure involves placing a catheter into the femoral vein - it's no more that an injection in terms of "pain". No discomfort whilst the procedure is being undertaken. No painkillers needed. No real discomfort after either. Just slight tenderness in the abdomen for a couple of days - and it is slight!

Yes, I could see what was going on. The screen showing my insides and the catheter, was next to the bed, so Dr Goren and I had a good conversation and a laugh during the procedure and he fully explained what was going on. At the end he gave me a cd showing the entire procedure -as shown on the screen.

Dr G says it can take six months to a year for the prostate to benefit. He has asked that at six months I have some further tests here in the uk - prostate size, flow etc. I'll keep everyone posted as I progress, or god forbid, regress.

I'm in touch with several other gentlemen who have had the procedure within the last few weeks. All are claiming an almost immediate improvement
and one, who had a foley catheter, is looking to having it removed this week - such is his improvement.

ClapTheHammer
Regular Member


Date Joined Jun 2012
Total Posts : 38
   Posted 6/7/2012 2:35 AM (GMT -6)   
AndyAction. I read your post with great interest.

My indecision still remains because if the treatment was so 'miraculous', one would have expected Israel to be inundated not only with 60 year possible patients BUT with non Israeli urologists seeking to learn and perform the procedure themselves in their own countries.

Then I have to ask why no other Israeli urologists have learned the procedure.

Why, after 3 years, only Gat and Goren are the ones performing the procedure in Israel itself?

To a non medical person such as myself, everything sounds logical. Wonderful even. Something like 'God's gift' to 60 plus year men who have difficulty urinating. men who have been told that the laser burning treatment may impair their sexual function, (such as it is), even further.

andyaction
Regular Member


Date Joined May 2012
Total Posts : 48
   Posted 6/7/2012 6:22 AM (GMT -6)   
Clap,

Great comment! You'd have to ask the Dr's G/G why and I'm sure that you would be able to speak to them direct and ask the questions first hand. I'm sure we would all be interested.

The claimed success rate on prostate improvement is just under 90% - backed up with results taken six months after the procedures. The urologist I was attending and the urologists of friends with prostate problems, all seem to exhibit the same indifferent that the procedure is not established.
Could it also be that the big money drug and equipment companies have their commercial agendas to protect and have done the usual great job of
clouding the advance which would affect their income stream?

When I spoke to Drs Gat / Goren at the time of my procedure and asked the same question, they confirmed that they are training up another local doctor to undertake the procedure which requires very specific skills. Also, they mentioned that they work out of a local hospital and the volume of prostate patients for their procedure is reliant on the flow into the hospital - supplemented by those coming from abroad as private patients.. I've also heard that the procedure is being offered in Portugal.

The Dr's procedure specialises in fertility problems and I believe they have undertaken some 2500 procedures with a higher success rate.

I understand your indecision and I can put you in touch with others who have had the procedure. To my mind, if you are suffering with prostate problems are considering a surgical procedure then, if you can afford it bite the bullet and go and see the Drs G/G first.. Al least call them or email them for details.... it's worth the investment. I call a spade a spade and if the procedure had not have improved my condition, then I would not be here now trying to let people know how well it has worked for me.. I'd have been slating it.

The procedure has not made any difference to my sexual function and I still have e/d issues which I'd like to sort out but hey... I remain in hope....

I would add that I had the procedure at the end of march and Drs G/G advise it can take six months to a year to obtain the full benefit - so I have some way to go... and I'll report the facts as I experience them - positive or negative. So far, all positive.

So, why not contact Dr Gat and ask him... he's the expert and he'll be only to happy to give you reasons from his experiences.

ClapTheHammer
Regular Member


Date Joined Jun 2012
Total Posts : 38
   Posted 6/9/2012 11:06 AM (GMT -6)   
Andy. Thank you for your quick response.

I don't want to contact the Gat clinic just yet because I am a bit worried by the absence of easily available independent figures on the success of this treatment. You had the procedure 2 months ago. I would for someone who had the procedure six months to a year ago to come on thread to tell us of the success or otherwise of the Gat Goren method.

Personally I will go to see a respected urologist and hear what he has to advise me. If I am still not decided, I will try to see another urologist for an independent assessment.

I stress again. It all seems so wonderful that, if all the 'claims' are true, it would be a news item at least once every two weeks on health television programs and the NHS would adopt it as quickly as possible. I suspect that it is much cheaper than conventional laser surgery, especially since the layup time is zero and no general anesthetic is administered, whereas after conventional surgery there are at least 3 days of bed time inside a hospital with all the costs that that entails. Also, leaser surgery causes the patient varying degrees of discomfort over a period of weeks and even months until the prostate has 'healed'.

And the NHS is nothing if not cost conscious.

I would be interested in seeing a comment here from a person who underwent the procedure more than 6 months ago.

andyaction
Regular Member


Date Joined May 2012
Total Posts : 48
   Posted 6/10/2012 11:23 AM (GMT -6)   
Clap,

I think you'll find that whereas whereas 'patients' had the procedure undertaken in Israel, the follow up results of those coming from abroad, would have been carried out by the patients local urologist / medical centre. I had my tests undertaken in the UK and in six months, the same people will carry out the tests again, so the tests are in effect, independent. BUt, i know what you're saying....and it makes some sense.

However, in terms of a urologists point of view, they will only comment on what they know, so all you'll get from them is a TURP or whatever. As for the NHS! (Same rule for all - no political comments, please! - 142)
 
I did offer my urologist to come to israel with me and see the op - my to pay his first class fare... the interest was zilch!

All I can do is report on my experiences - and i'll repeat, i'm only a couple of months in, so there is a way to go.. but, with the improvements I've experienced, even if there are no further improvements, as I am at the moment, had I been like this before being diagnosed, I would not have even bothered going to the doctors.

I'll drop a line to Dr Gat and ask if he can give me the email of someone who had the procedure over a year ago and if I can get details, I'll invite that person to make a comment.

Post Edited By Moderator (142) : 6/10/2012 1:16:17 PM (GMT-6)


andyaction
Regular Member


Date Joined May 2012
Total Posts : 48
   Posted 6/10/2012 11:25 AM (GMT -6)   
Clap, by the way there are a number of reports in the media, Sky and the Telegraph I think amongst others.

ClapTheHammer
Regular Member


Date Joined Jun 2012
Total Posts : 38
   Posted 6/12/2012 4:06 AM (GMT -6)   
Andy. I am going to a urologist this evening and will inform the thread of his responses to my questions.

You saying that you were prepared to pay a fist class ticket for your urologist to accompany you and yet he refused is interesting.

Perhaps my temporary urologist will enlighten us.

I am still stunned that such a seemingly obvious and 'logical' new treatment, which enables the patient to leave the 'operating theater'/clinic within hours of the procedure and which could only be described as 'God's gift to 'post mature' men' is very under-subscribed in terms of other urologists adopting it.

I will update later today.

andyaction
Regular Member


Date Joined May 2012
Total Posts : 48
   Posted 6/12/2012 4:29 AM (GMT -6)   
Well, good luck today Clap.

I've met with complete denial and indifference of the Gat Goren procedure in my attempts to develop interest and kickstart an investigation into this procedure. Imagine the potential for men and for cost savings if this procedure is shown to be successful!

No professional curiosity anywhere it appears -no doubt, because the procedure has not undergone the clinical trials required, because it's not mainstream and perhaps because those doing surgical treatments cannot yet do the G/G.. so better the devil you know!

BUT, it has to start somewhere, as you rightly intimate, the G/G procedure has the potential to be of huge benefit to men- and if proven to be effective, the G/G should be nominated for a Nobel. As I mentioned before Drs G/G are not milkmen or computer programmers, they are highly educated specialists with experience and repute.

ClapTheHammer
Regular Member


Date Joined Jun 2012
Total Posts : 38
   Posted 6/13/2012 1:18 AM (GMT -6)   
Andy Hi,
Well. The visit to the urologist didn’t throw a lot of light on my ‘difficulties’. In fact, the urologist was quite animated and I gather that the general opinion amongst urologists in Israel is that neither Gat nor Goren have instigated proper investigative procedures to properly and scientifically assess their claims that this is the ‘Holy Grail’ for suffers of an enlarged prostate. Procedures like a small group containing a sub control croup AS IS DONE in similar circumstances with other radical new medical procedures are announced.
As far as excess testosterone is concerned, the urologist informs me that there is a medication, approved medication, which has been found to reduce to 20% the need for an invasive procedure of any sort to reduce prostate size. This according to my urologist. (The medication is called Alfuzosin). He says that after 4 months use I can expect an improvement. I will be purchasing it today and will keep you informed.
In short. I would be happy to renew this exchange in 4 months time. For you, the colder weather will have set in and you can be more sure of the success/benefits, or otherwise, of the GatGoren method in your particular case. (I will put a reminder in my Outlook with the Internet address of this blog.)
Also, in short, I feel that I can state clearly that there is very little anecdotal ‘evidence’ available openly on the Internet. Texts that I have seen seem a bit repetitious raising suspicions that ‘things may not be as they seem’. Mainly the texts are what Dr. Gat has reportedly said.
I have initiated some possible investigation in a medical academic institution in the USA to see if any urologist has anything to say. A long shot since I am working through an acquaintance but there might be some information or opinion of value.
I wish you well. I really do. I really hope that this is the ‘Holy Grail’ for sufferers of an enlarged prostate BUT, as yet, there is zero hard (true) evidence available on the Internet to substantiate the claims made by the GatGoren clinic.

ClapTheHammer
Regular Member


Date Joined Jun 2012
Total Posts : 38
   Posted 6/16/2012 11:36 AM (GMT -6)   
Actually, some seemingly relevant material has surfaced.
http://www.touchbriefings.com/pdf/3344/gornish.pdf
The problem that I still have is that although a group of 28 men etc, there doesn't seem to be any information on who performed the tests or 'signed off' on the results except the Gat/Goren clinic.
To be scientific, tests have to be under the supervision of some outside academic institution otherwise, the test results would not be acceptable. Everything in the above linked document reads very convincingly. My problem is that it has not been vetted by independent sources.

andyaction
Regular Member


Date Joined May 2012
Total Posts : 48
   Posted 6/17/2012 2:08 PM (GMT -6)   
Clap,

my apologies for the delay in responding. I had trouble logging in. In response to your last two posts.....

I'd be interested that you keep us informed of your experiences. Alfuzosin looks interesting.. I hope it works for you. You never know, i too may need it if the Gat Goren procedure proves ineffective for my condition. In view of my improvements having had the G/g procedure, i'm optimistic that prostate problems are behind me now.

Of course, there are reports and opinions about anything and one has to make a considered judgement based on the information available and dare I say it, your own gut feeling sometimes. It would probably be fair to say that Dr's G/G probably don't have the deep pockets of drug companies to undertake and shape tests. They are reliant in the main, on local traffic through their Hospital / practice. So, perhaps their procedure is still in the early days stage but if surgery is being recommended by the urologist, then the G/g procedure should be worth considering if six months and a moderate investment are not beyond your reach.

I accepted that I was in fact a a guinea pig for the procedure but I was prepared to take the risks in view of the benefits if successful. The credentials of G/G are as good or better than many and Israel is renowned for medical advances and quality care for private patients, so it didn't take me long to make a decision to get myself treated. (It also helped that many years ago I had varicose veins in the leg and at the time the Doctor closed the veins with a "glue' in a similar manner without pain or complication, so I had an idea of what I was letting myself in for).

I could not open the link you mentioned.

As a patient who has left the G/G clinic and doesn't really want to return to Israel for tests, Dr Gat tells me he will contact me in due course and ask me to visit my urologist to have appropriate follow up tests undertaken. I believe that this is the same strategy for other patients who came in from abroad. I'd would say this is independent.

Anyway, prostate sufferers have to make decisions that best suit their needs and budgets. Not everyone is fortunate to be able to be able to make choices and most rely on their urologist to advise and carry out the "best course of action".

So I wish everyone well in their journey and add that I am only to happy to share my experiences and progress. so like you clap, i will respond to replies and keep the forum up to date with my progress and the progress /experiences of other G/g patients that I am in contact with.

incidentally, my recent request to G/G for the name of a patient who had the procedure undertaken over a year ago has been replied too but with no such contact included....

ClapTheHammer
Regular Member


Date Joined Jun 2012
Total Posts : 38
   Posted 6/18/2012 1:24 AM (GMT -6)   
Hi Andy.
I copy/pasted the link from my comment above directly into my browser and it worked fine. It is an 'Academically presented' document. (Received: 30 May 2009 Accepted: 10 July 2009). It is not clear from the document who received it and who accepted it.
Following is a 'string' which if you copy/paste into Google will finde the document for you.

Reversal of Benign Prostate Hyperplasia by
Super-selective Intraprostatic Androgen Deprivation Therapy

also:

http://www.touchurology.com/articles/reversal-benign-prostate-hyperplasia-super-selective-intraprostatic-androgen-deprivation-th

It would be great if what is claimed there was the actual situation and Dr Gat and Dr Goren were proposed to receive the Novel Prize for medicine. After all, just guessing, but I would imagine that a really respectable percentage of those 'luminaries' who decide who receives the prize, would be in need of the Gat Goren procedure were it proved scientifically to be effective, if not now, then very soon.
Hopefully, not the same 'luminaries who decided to award 
(No politics - 142)  with a 'peace prize'.

Anyway, have started taking a generic copy medicine called ALFU-KAL-XL. Not the original Alfuzosin which the Chemist didn't have. The small bit of paper inside the package lists lots of possible side effects but, then so do all medications. It is just a matter of taking them and seeing if any of the side effects manifest themselves in my particular case.
As I wrote before, according to my urologist, this medicine has been shown in scientific trials to be effective.
I suspect that my particular problem would be described as mild to serious on the scale of things. Bearing this in mind, another year using medication is as good a bet as any. And you never know, it may work.

Post Edited By Moderator (142) : 6/18/2012 10:39:49 AM (GMT-6)


Cody Hamilton
New Member


Date Joined May 2012
Total Posts : 4
   Posted 7/8/2012 2:48 PM (GMT -6)   
Andy:

Any update on your progress. I have communicated with the clinic and am in the process of assembling the plethora of tests they require.

The logic of their treatment makes sense to me. And I understand the powerful pull that money and medical politics plays on things like this. As I understand it, Gat and Goren are not urologists. Treating symptoms of BPH and prostate cancer in the US are very big business for urologists. If this procedure became popular in the US, it would have a dramatic, negative impact on the revenue model of urologists and hospital urology departments. We would all like to think that this doesn't matter, but I know from personal experience that it does matter.

I also am thinking that, even if this protocol is being tested somewhere, by the time those results are vetted and published, I could be too old to care. So, when I weigh the cost (which does seem significant--they told me $16,000US) and the surgical risk (which seems slight), it makes sense for me to move forward and do it.

Any final thoughts (or additional contact info) before I purchase the plane ticket?

Cody

andyaction
Regular Member


Date Joined May 2012
Total Posts : 48
   Posted 7/9/2012 4:10 PM (GMT -6)   
Cody,
I'm three months in and just been asked by Dr's G to get some blood tests carried out. This will no doubt take a few weeks but I will let thew forum know how I got on and what improvements are seen.

At present, the improvements to date are significant. My stream is now constant and stronger. I have not needed to get up at night for weeks now although I do need to go in the morning. Frequency is dramatically improved. Before I was needing to go just about all the time with double and triple voiding and then needing to pee half an hour later. I feel that my visits are more like normal now. The urge to go can still be there when it is time to go, but that's no big deal.
the dribbling has stopped. there is no discomfort or negative after effects of the procedure which was totally painless.

I'm Still on Finasteride and diffundox until Dr Gat advises that I can stop. Dr G also advised that it takes six months or so to get maximum benefit so I've still got a way to go.


I've been in communication with others who have undergone the procedure. All report similar improvements although it is just weeks after their procedures.

I'd don't believe that urologists would lose out to much by offering the procedure - especially theo new that got onto the "bandwagon" early. I'm sure people would pay a premium not to have all the side effects of traditional surgery or long term drug use. Perhaps the drug Companies would have something to say though!!!

Anyway. my thoughts... IF YOU CAN AFFORD IT, DON'T DELAY DO IT.. IT COULD CHANGE YOUR LIFE. it's a small investment for the improvements.
If you decide to go, Please give Dr's Gat and Goren my best regards (andy from London)

Good luck and keep me posted please.

Cody Hamilton
New Member


Date Joined May 2012
Total Posts : 4
   Posted 7/12/2012 9:03 PM (GMT -6)   
Thanks much, Andy. I will move forward. And your comments have definitely been instrumental in my decision.

Cody from America

kirv
New Member


Date Joined Jul 2012
Total Posts : 4
   Posted 7/16/2012 5:00 PM (GMT -6)   
Hi, Andy, Cody, Clap - I really appreciate your exchange. I'm looking into the Gat-Goren method for my father. Andy, since you're in touch with others who have had the procedure, some over the 6 months to a year, if they want to remain anonymous, perhaps you could encourage them to share their experiences in this forum? I think that would help convince more people.

Kirv (U.S.)

Post Edited (kirv) : 7/16/2012 6:51:22 PM (GMT-6)


kirv
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Date Joined Jul 2012
Total Posts : 4
   Posted 7/16/2012 5:24 PM (GMT -6)   
Hi, here's a 2008 medical journal where Gat and Gornish published about their procedure:
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/store/10.1111/j.1439-0272.2008.00883.x/asset/j.1439-0272.2008.00883.x.pdf?v=1&t=h4q3xrb6&s=37db48d858dc9f5deef0b70a9baca76ffea7b152

The full citation is:
Gat, Y., M. Gornish, M. Heiblum & S. Joshua. (2008). "Reversal of benign prostate hyperplasia by selective occlusion of impaired venous drainage in the male reproductive system: novel mechanism, new treatment," Andrologia, Volume 40, pp. 273-281.

If you have trouble with the link, go to:
scholar.google.com
Search for Gat and Gornish, and you will pop up a lot of their scientific articles, and can download that one.

It appears they also filed for a U.S. patent for their procedure, and you can download their patent application online by Googling U.S. patent 0204639 A1, "DIAGNOSIS AND TREATMENT OF VARICOCELE AND PROSTATE DISORDERS." Last fall, they presented their procedure at a urology conference, and their abstract is in European Urology Supplements, 2011;10(2):124.

So, it's all fairly early for this to get out to other urologists.

Here's an article just posted today on the Jerusalem Post, which is one of the better news summaries:
http://www.jpost.com/LandedPages/PrintArticle.aspx?id=65136
Now they are teaching the method in France and Belgium, hooray!

If anyone could translate "enlarged prostate" into Hebrew and Google on Israli blogs, maybe we could find some more stories by their patients?

Post Edited (kirv) : 7/16/2012 6:12:24 PM (GMT-6)


kirv
New Member


Date Joined Jul 2012
Total Posts : 4
   Posted 7/16/2012 5:55 PM (GMT -6)   
Hi, so I used Google Translate to translate "Gat enlarged prostate" to Hebrew, and Google that. There are some news articles, and their clinic started twittering about their procedure, but I could not find any health blogs of patients sharing their experiences. There are two in which some people asked about the Gat-Goren method, and a doctor moderating the site answered that the method is not recognized yet in Israel or Europe [as it's too new]. (If you guys want to search more, just note that when you cut and paste the Hebrew from Google translate, Hebrew goes from right to left, so your back and erase buttons go the opposite direction!).

Also, I think urologists are being really hesitant, since Gat and Gornish come from outside urology. Gat is a fertility expert, while Goren is an interventional radiologist. So, they made their discovery coming from a different direction. In fact, they were not even looking for a solution to enlarged prostates but to male fertility, so their discovery was indirect. To me, this seems actually very encouraging, since they could think outside the box.

I guess varicose veins treatments cost $800-$3000, so perhaps $10,000 for around the prostate is appropriate?

Post Edited (kirv) : 7/16/2012 6:11:08 PM (GMT-6)


andyaction
Regular Member


Date Joined May 2012
Total Posts : 48
   Posted 7/17/2012 5:00 PM (GMT -6)   
Here we go chaps.. some independent results...

Blood tests undertaken by UK National Health Sevice (NHS) prior to procedure and now 3.5 months after procedure:

Prior to
LH 5.7 IU/L FSH 4 IU/L PSA 3.3 ug/L High Testosterone ? Free testosterone ?

3.5 months
LH 1.8 IU/L FSH 2.8 IU/L PSA 2.3 ug/L Testosterone 11.6 nmo/l Free testosterone ?

The question marks are because I don't know these results. The NHS have consistently overlooked or deliberately decided not to do the full testosterone tests as requested and have consistenly "lost" my blood samples. - the w-nkers -

To those who can interpret what results I do have, it would be appreciated.

Anyway.. progress is bottoming out in terms of flow and frequency. I'm happy and comfortable enough and my life has changed for the better. Last week however, some getting up at night which I've put down to cups of tea and glasses of water late at night. So. I'll cut this out next week and see what happens.

andyaction
Regular Member


Date Joined May 2012
Total Posts : 48
   Posted 7/17/2012 5:06 PM (GMT -6)   
Kirv,

just read your post. I think the same as you with regards these doctors.... and that their backgrounds and "discovery" have probably put a few noses out of joint -

kirv
New Member


Date Joined Jul 2012
Total Posts : 4
   Posted 7/17/2012 5:17 PM (GMT -6)   
Andy - In case you did not see my earlier post, since you're in touch with others who have had the procedure, some over the 6 months to a year, if they want to remain anonymous, perhaps you could encourage them to share their experiences in this forum? I think that would help convince more people.

ClapTheHammer
Regular Member


Date Joined Jun 2012
Total Posts : 38
   Posted 7/19/2012 3:20 AM (GMT -6)   
kirv. The link that you posted: http://www.jpost.com/LandedPages/PrintArticle.aspx?id=65136 does not link to any article relating to prostate problems. Gat/Goren have a proven method to solve a situation of male infertility in an innovative way. That has nothing to do with an enlarged prostate and subsequent problems.

Andy. I hope that your situation is really a true improvement on your previous situation. As of this moment. I have seen no other evidence of any success of the procedure proposed by Gat Goren other than yours.

Clap

ClapTheHammer
Regular Member


Date Joined Jun 2012
Total Posts : 38
   Posted 7/19/2012 3:29 AM (GMT -6)   
Andy posted: just read your post. I think the same as you with regards these doctors.... and that their backgrounds and "discovery" have probably put a few noses out of joint

Point taken. BUT. As I have stated before, the NHS is very careful about its finances. The Gat/Goren method, IF effective, would save hundreds of millions of pounds in operation theater expenses and hospital recovery time each year for those undergoing the procedure rather than standard laser treatments which flush away prostate tissue and need a few days in hospital recovery units apart from serious discomfort while peeing for a few weeks.

So. IF the method was proved effective, I imagine that the health services of ALL countries would be trying it NOW. Or at the very least, seriously examining it. (And to hell with producers of expensive medications and doctor's egos.)

The bottom line would always be the saving of financial expenses.
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