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judway
New Member


Date Joined Jul 2006
Total Posts : 13
   Posted 5/23/2007 9:34 AM (GMT -7)   
I was diagnosed with prostate cancer about a year ago with a psa of > 10, a Gleason of 4+3 and a T3a stage. I had 45 external radiation treatments and 8 months of hormone treatment. At one month after the end of the treatments, the psa was 0.31. Three months later the psa was 0.15 and now about 6 months later the psa is up to 0.89. Sounds bad!
 
Can the psa bounce start this early? Most reports indicate it can start in about one to two years. Does anyone have any experience in this matter such as when the bounce started and when it came down again?
 
Thanks,
 
Judway

stkitt
Forum Moderator


Date Joined Apr 2007
Total Posts : 32602
   Posted 5/23/2007 9:52 AM (GMT -7)   

Judaway,

Welcome! I hope you find this place a safe haven.  I am Kitt.    I wish you the best and look forward to hearing more from you.

Peace and hugs.


Respectfully
Kitt

Moderator Prostate Cancer
My Father and his 5 siblings all died of Cancer.
______________________________________________________
"If you doubt you can accomplish something, then you can’t accomplish it. You have to have confidence in your ability, and then be tough enough to follow through.” 
~Rosalyn Carter


bluebird
Veteran Member


Date Joined May 2006
Total Posts : 2542
   Posted 5/23/2007 5:58 PM (GMT -7)   

Hi ~ Judway,

 

Caring Enough to Share….. 

 

     A   “Special”  Warm Welcome  to  You!    yeah

                        …Glad you’re back with us…

 

I noticed that you posted back in July 2006. I was a Newbie back then…. and as you will see ~ we have come along way in the past year!!!  When we started on the forum back in May 2006… there were less than 20 pages…Now ~ we are on page 49… and continue to grow. 

 

Since you didn’t respond back after your initial postings (4) in July… I hope you found direction to help you with the stepping-stones you were on during this time.

 

This is truly a great forum!!!   And now we have many members who have traveled the same path as you!!!  Thank you for re-joining all of us on this road to HealingWell…..

 

In starting this thread.... you will definitely be helping others and hopefully someone here will be able to shed a little more light on this for you.  The more information we can share with each other….the better informed we all are. 

 

                                    KNOWLEDGE IS POWER... and POWER conquers fear

 

Please ~ plan to stay with us as you travel a little further on your journey.

The following members Trey *Trey1121,  Bill *jetguy,  & Dave *pcdave, Dutch, Gordy, Sterd82, & Cousin Bill… have shared their journeys with us.  They have taught us all ~ so much with their sharing.

  

Know that we will be here for you!!!   This is how we learn and this is how we help each other. 

Keeping you Extra Close in our thoughts and prayers.

 

In New…Friendship ~ Lee & Buddy

 

“God Bless You” 

It's a little prayer  ~  "God Bless You"  ...but it means so much each day,

It means may angels guard you and guide you on your  way

 

(Direct Link ~ just click on the title below and a new window will open!  

Reminder … click on the REFRESH icon once you get there)

Helpful Hints ~ & ~ Direct Links to Important Topic Threads ~ Hope this helps you!! :)


mama bluebird - Lee & Buddy… from North Carolina

J  We invite you to visit our personal thread:  Click Here:  “Our Journey” ~ Sharing is Caring 

April 3, 2006  53 on surgery day

RRP / Radical Retropubic Prostatectomy with "wide excision"

PSA 4.6   Gleason  3+3=6    T2a   Confined to Prostate

2nd PSA 02-06-2007 Less than 0.1 Non-Detectable :)


bluebird
Veteran Member


Date Joined May 2006
Total Posts : 2542
   Posted 5/23/2007 6:16 PM (GMT -7)   

Hi ~ Judway,

 

I’m not going to be able to help a whole lot in this area but I did look in my book and found several areas under PSA Bounce in the following book…..  You may already have this book…. but thought I’d send this information along to you.

 

“Dr. Scardino’s Prostate Book”

There are several areas in his book discussing….

PSA and External Radiation

 

Rising PSA after Radiation Therapy (Chapter 20)

    What can be done about a rising PSA after surgery or radiation?

    Does a rising PSA always mean cancer?

    What can be done about a rising PSA after surgery or radiation?

 

Keeping you close as you continue to search for answers….

In New Friendship ~ Lee & Buddy


judway
New Member


Date Joined Jul 2006
Total Posts : 13
   Posted 5/23/2007 7:07 PM (GMT -7)   

All

Thanks for the Welcome and the information. I will see the Radiation Oncologist this Friday. I had hoped to know a little more before my appointment.

Last summer when I visited this forum there was not much information about external radiation. It seemed and still seems that most members have had surgery. I went to Don Cooley's forum which had a little bit more radiation information. Seems he has now essentially shut down his forum. Too bad!

Thanks again.

judway

 


pcdave
Regular Member


Date Joined Oct 2006
Total Posts : 444
   Posted 5/23/2007 8:16 PM (GMT -7)   
Hi Judway

Yes, PSA bounce can be scary, but in many cases it is not a cause of concern. I finished my proton radiation therapy in April 2007 and do not have any experience about PSA bounce. I did, however, two interesting articles on PSA bounce below. I don't want to draw any conclusion about your personal situation from these articles, because you should discuss your PSA bounce with your doctor. It is true that most of the members here opt for surgery, but there is now a small group of members, including myself, who have been treated with either photon (x-ray) radiation or proton radiation. I hope to stay here for a long time so that readers of this forum can chart my progress with me. You can read all of the books in the world on prostate cancer and they can't give you the great insight into personal experiences of PCa patients here who have been treated by either surgery or some form of radiation. I hope and pray that your PSA bounce is just a false alarm. Good Luck!

Dave

PSA "Bounce" No Reason For Concern
May Indicate More Cells Dying

Article date: 2002/12/03
Man continues healthful activity after prostate cancer treatment.

A passing rise in blood levels of PSA after radiation therapy for localized prostate cancer doesn't necessarily mean cancer is coming back, say researchers in the Journal of Urology (Vol. 168: 2001-2005).

If PSA rises but then returns to the level it had just after treatment, that movement may be a "PSA bounce."

"Our study shows some patients can have an elevation in their PSA after external beam radiotherapy that is not a sign of cancer progression" said Louis Pisters, MD, at the MD Anderson Cancer Center in Houston.

The researchers feel that the bounce is not a sign of cancer growth and may be caused by death of damaged cancer cells that then release their PSA.

In fact, patients who have such a PSA bounce less than two years after treatment may be less likely to have cancer return later, said Pisters.
Link To Lower Recurrence Risk

Pisters and colleagues studied 964 patients treated with radiotherapy for localized prostate cancer between 1987 and 1998 to see if a link existed between PSA bounce and likelihood of recurrence.

Checking PSA levels every three to six months after radiotherapy, they found about 12% of the 964 patients had such a PSA bounce.

Although Pisters worried that a PSA bounce meant the cancer was more likely to recur, he found just the opposite. Five years after treatment, about 82% of men whose PSA bounced were free of signs of cancer, compared to about 58% of those whose PSA did not bounce.

A bounce usually began with less than a one-point rise (less than 1 ng/ml), because larger rises were less likely to drop back to their starting points, Pisters said.

Most bounces happened within two years of treatment; later rises were less likely to be part of a bounce, Pisters said. In their study, 80% of men had their bounce within two years and by two and one-half years, that number rose to almost 90%.
Hard To Identify In Advance

Unfortunately, the researchers found no way to predict whether rising PSA would later fall back to its starting point, becoming part of a bounce, said Pisters.

But more study may help scientists be able to make such predictions, which could be very useful to patients and to doctors planning their treatment, Pisters noted.

It's understandable why those with a bounce had less chance of recurrence. Men whose first rise after treatment didn't go back down to pre-treatment levels by definition didn't have a bounce, and may have been having a recurrence, Pisters said.

But the new definition better describes what a real bounce is and helps highlight that not all rises are recurrences, said Pisters.
Expert Calls Report Reassuring

The study is reassuring, and shows patients shouldn't "overinterpret" small rises in PSA by assuming they signal the return of cancer, said Timothy D. Gilligan, MD, a genitourinary oncologist at Dana-Farber Cancer Institute in Boston.

"We need to be careful about how we interpret PSA right after radiotherapy, so we don’t jump in with unnecessary testing or procedures prematurely, before it's clear that rising PSA means residual disease rather than just reaction to treatment," said Gilligan.

http://www.cancer.org/docroot/NWS/content/NWS_1_1x_PSA_Bounce_No_Reason_For_Concern.asp


Largest PSA Bounce Study Eases Worry Of Prostate Cancer Returning

Science Daily — Prostate cancer patients who have a temporary rise in their prostate specific antigen (PSA) levels after radiation therapy - called a PSA bounce - are not at an increased risk of their cancer coming back any more than those who don't have a temporary rise, according to the largest study of its kind presented November 8, 2006, at the American Society for Therapeutic Radiology and Oncology's 48th Annual Meeting in Philadelphia.

External beam radiation therapy and radiation seed implants are two of the main treatments for prostate cancer. Since these treatments are minimally invasive, have short recovery periods and often help men preserve their sexual and urinary function, many men with prostate cancer prefer radiation over other treatments, including surgery. The PSA bounce is common in half of all men who have radiation treatment for prostate cancer. Increased levels of PSA, which is a protein produced by the prostate, may be a sign of prostate cancer.

"I believe the results of our study should help reduce the stress and uncertainty for men who experience a PSA bounce after radiation knowing that this doesn't represent a recurrence or put them at increased risk for cancer coming back later on," said Eric Horwitz, M.D., lead author of the study and clinical director of the radiation oncology department at Fox Chase Cancer Center in Philadelphia. "This study significantly impacts the clinical practice for both radiation oncologists and urologists. Clinicians should consider additional PSA tests after the initial bounce to see if the PSA levels return to normal before concluding that cancer has recurred and recommending additional treatment."

The study involved more than 7,500 men in 19 institutions who were treated for prostate cancer with either external beam radiation therapy or radiation seed implants. Findings show that over a 10-year period, there was no difference in cancer recurrence between those who had a PSA bounce and those who did not.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/11/061108154629.htm
 


68, 29-core biopsy 9/27/06, PSA 7.1, Stage T1c, Gleason 7 (3+4) [less than 20% in one area],  Gleason 6 [less than 5% in two other areas], negative DRE, bone scan and Endorectal MRI. Completed 39 Proton radiation treatments 2/22/07-4/18/07.
First PSA test to be taken 7/07.

Post Edited (pcdave) : 5/23/2007 11:30:08 PM (GMT-6)


judway
New Member


Date Joined Jul 2006
Total Posts : 13
   Posted 5/28/2007 5:08 PM (GMT -7)   
I saw the Radiation Oncologist last Friday. He never mentioned bounce but said the lower levels of PSA were caused by the hormone treatment (Lupron). He expected the PSA to be down to 0.4 when I go back to him in six months. Guess I will just have to wait.
 
My one side effect from the radiation treatment has been burning when I urinate. It started  after about a week of radiation treatments and is present just as bad now, nearly a year later. My urologist said it would get well when it gets well. The RO said that if it is not OK after the next six months he will take positive steps to fix the problem.
 
judway

pcdave
Regular Member


Date Joined Oct 2006
Total Posts : 444
   Posted 5/28/2007 7:08 PM (GMT -7)   
Hi Judway

What kind of radiation treatments did they give you? I assume IMRT (x-ray) which is the most common today for PCa. With my proton treatments I had some very mild burning during the treatments, but everything has been fine since then. We have at least two members here who have had IMRT radiation and I don't recall that they complained about any burning while urinating after treatment. I think your doctor should give you a more definitive answer or get a 2nd opinion. Having uncomfortable burning a year after treatment does not seem the norm with today's more sophisticated forms of radiation treatment. Good luck in resolving the problem.

Dave
68, 29-core biopsy 9/27/06, PSA 7.1, Stage T1c, Gleason 7 (3+4) [less than 20% in one area],  Gleason 6 [less than 5% in two other areas], negative DRE, bone scan and Endorectal MRI. Completed 39 Proton radiation treatments 2/22/07-4/18/07.
First PSA test to be taken 7/07.


judway
New Member


Date Joined Jul 2006
Total Posts : 13
   Posted 5/29/2007 7:38 AM (GMT -7)   
Dave

I had the latest type of X-Ray IMRT/ IGRT which used the markers for alignment. I haven't heard of anyone else having the same problem with the burning sensation when urinating. The pain is just irritating not really bad. I can put up with it the rest of my life, but I have to mention it to the doctors when they ask. I have two doctors already who say just wait. I suspect that a couple of more would say the same thing. My oncologist says he will take action in six months if it has not gone away. I expect it will still be there.

judway

pcdave
Regular Member


Date Joined Oct 2006
Total Posts : 444
   Posted 5/29/2007 8:57 AM (GMT -7)   
Hi Judway

No matter what treatment we have, we are into this PCa thing for the rest of our lives. Even with radiation, there is no guarantee that we will not have future side effects. I know, for example, that many radiation patients are subject to rectal bleeding many months after treatment, although it eventually goes away and is not usually something to be concerned about. Hopefully your urinary burning will disappear eventually and your PSA readings will decline again. Everything seems fine with me right now, but I know that I could have surprises along the way. I am just grateful for each day that everything seems to be fine.

Dave
68, 29-core biopsy 9/27/06, PSA 7.1, Stage T1c, Gleason 7 (3+4) [less than 20% in one area],  Gleason 6 [less than 5% in two other areas], negative DRE, bone scan and Endorectal MRI. Completed 39 Proton radiation treatments 2/22/07-4/18/07.
First PSA test to be taken 7/07.

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