Reasons for Armour not to work properly

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RJD76
Regular Member


Date Joined Sep 2013
Total Posts : 82
   Posted 10/6/2016 8:11 AM (GMT -6)   
Hi,

got Hashimoto's and hypothyroidism from a Lyme infection in 2007. Got diagnosed with Hashi's and Lyme at the same time (2012), but just recently started treatment for hypothyroidism. 5 months of Synthroid, just switched to Armour about a month ago. Not noticing any difference yet. Lyme treatment finished summer 2015.

My levels of antibodies have been over 1300 IU/ml for many years, reference below 100, and Anti-Thyroglobuline 1501, reference below 40.

I still experience symptoms related to my thyroid (discomfort on my throat, swollen tongue, low body temp, joint pains, tiredness). I still have lyme disease and I know some of these symptoms can be related to this. Starting new tratment for this real soon. But just looking for reasons for my thyroid medication not working properly.

Can Lyme alone be a reason?
I have high levels of mercury in my body, can this be a reason?
Or maybe just to early in tratment to notice difference?

Some tests i did just recently:

s-cortisol: 729 nmol/L ref: 200 - 650
Other Cortisol levels within range (spit, urine)
s-anti-thyroglobuline: 119 ref <40
s-reverse T3 0,55 ref. 0.14 - 0.54

tests regarding diabetes is normal

s-ana-screen: 0.3 ref. 0 - 0.6
s-albumin: 42 g/L ref: 36 - 45
s-crp: <5 mg/L ref 0 - 4
s-calsium: 2.46 mmol/L ref 2.15 - 2.51
s-calsium corr. 2.44 ref 2.17 - 2.47
s-creatinine: 93 umol/L ref 60 - 105
s-egfr 88 mL/min1 ref > 60
b-sr: 14 mm/t 0 - 15

Do I need to take a PTH test?

b12 and vit d are high

s-tsh: 0.41 ref 0.20 - 4.0
s-ft4: 17.8 ref 11.0 - 23.0
s-anti-tpa: 268 ref <100
s-ft3: 5.3 ref 3.5 - 6.5

any thoughts? other tests i should take?

Thanks!

Tommy, Sweden

hypoHashimoto
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Date Joined Jul 2012
Total Posts : 741
   Posted 10/6/2016 9:16 AM (GMT -6)   
Hi Tommy,

You will find it very difficult to balance your thyroid while your adrenals are not balanced, first you need to address the high Cortisol, but maybe being hyperthyroid can cause high cortisol also, I am not sure regarding that, this is why you need to ask a specialist.

In addition to that your TSH is indicative of being hyperthyroid, it is in range but barely, the optimal TSH you should aim at is around 2.5, maybe the cause for your TSH to be very low is having too much FREE T3 in your blood, this is expected with Armour since it has both T3 and T4 but the ratio of T3 to T4 in it is much higher than what humans need, we need much less T3 than what pigs produce.

According to my own personal experience brand name synthetic T4 medications (Levothyroxine) are better than the NDT, Armour is what was prescribed before synthesizing T4 in the laboratory.

Did you take brand name Synthroid or the generic form of Levo? is it available in Sweden?

Best of luck,

RJD76
Regular Member


Date Joined Sep 2013
Total Posts : 82
   Posted 10/7/2016 2:52 AM (GMT -6)   
hypoHashimoto, thanks for your reply!

I did take a form of Levothyroxine prescribed by my familydoctor. Heard good things about NDT so decided to try it out, dissappointed so far. Way too expensive, so might as well switch back if the NDT doesn't do anything for me.

But staying on NDT till i see my doc again late October. Do you think it's wise to reduce my dose? Currently on 90mg, maybe reduce dose to 60mg cause of low TSH?

Also wondering about supplements to lower Cortisol levels?

Thanks!

RJD76
Regular Member


Date Joined Sep 2013
Total Posts : 82
   Posted 10/7/2016 3:24 AM (GMT -6)   
And what to aim for regarding level of Free T3?

hypoHashimoto
Veteran Member


Date Joined Jul 2012
Total Posts : 741
   Posted 10/7/2016 3:29 AM (GMT -6)   
The doctor who treats both thyroid and adrenals is called an Endocrinologist, if you want to remain on NDT then with this TSH your doctor should reduce your dose otherwise you will not feel better and remain symptomatic, this is because currently you are over medicated.

I do not have experience with NDT, so I can not tell you by how much you will need to reduce.

BTW, not all Endos know about NDT or know how to use it, so if you want to stay on it you need to make sure the doctor you are seeing does know how to use it.

For how long have you been on 90 mg ? if you have Hashimoto starting Levo will reduce your TSH, by how much depends on the initial dose of Levo you started to take, if it reduced your TSH to inside normal range then it needs three months since the starting of Levo for your TSH to rise again indicating the need to an increase of the dose, this should be a process that repeats it self until your levels remain stable, and you should aim at a TSH of 2.5 .

Best of luck,

RJD76
Regular Member


Date Joined Sep 2013
Total Posts : 82
   Posted 10/7/2016 3:59 AM (GMT -6)   
Seemed that my Endo didn't wanna help me that much. He wanted to see what happened if my TSH went down to 1..And my Cortisol levels were due to stress he told me. No further treatment from him. I think he did not have any experience with NDT as he adviced against it, I just wanted to try it to see if I noticed any difference.

I'm seeing a doctor of Functional Medicine for NDT treatment, I will see her again late October, so we'll see what happens.

I have been on 90mg for about 2 weeks. Slowly upped my dose from 30mg to 60mg with 50mg of Levo. And now only NDT.

Been on 100mg of Levo before starting NDT treatment. (about 5 months)

hypoHashimoto
Veteran Member


Date Joined Jul 2012
Total Posts : 741
   Posted 10/7/2016 4:37 AM (GMT -6)   
Somebody said...
Been on 100mg of Levo before starting NDT treatment. (about 5 months)


What was your TSH then? it is very possible that Levo work great for you but you just need to be on the right dose.

The results you posted above are before or after the 90 mg Armour? for how long on that dose?

Somebody said...
Slowly upped my dose from 30mg to 60mg with 50mg of Levo. And now only NDT


Performing blood tests should be at least six weeks since each change in the dose or medication, this is because the half life time of T4 is one week and thus it takes six weeks for it to become effective, TSH also is a cumulative measure and it does not change in few days but it needs at least six weeks to reach steady state.

You need to think very carefully before deciding to continue with Armour, it might not work for you either as it contains large amounts of T3 and as you already know it is much more expensive.

If one Endo is not so helpful for you then you need to search for another one, from my experience with doctors you might need to change many endos before finding one who has the right answers for your issues.

hope this helps you Tommy,
Best of luck,

Post Edited (hypoHashimoto) : 10/7/2016 5:02:10 AM (GMT-6)


RJD76
Regular Member


Date Joined Sep 2013
Total Posts : 82
   Posted 10/7/2016 5:23 AM (GMT -6)   
Thanks a lot for this!:-) To your questions: My TSH before I started Levo was 4.6 I think. Levels above - some were taken recently others from around May. Only on Levo at this time.

The TSH 0.41 and FT4 17.8 was taken a couple of weeks ago, NDT 90mg for about a week. The FT3 5.3 is older. I think maybe from May also. I'm sceduled to take new TSH, FT4, FT3 and antibodies in 10 days before I see my doc again. Definately don't wanna pay a lot of cash for a medication that doesn't work for me..

Will post my results!

But what I'm experiencing since starting NDT is increased chestpain and pains in all my joints (anckles, knees, wrists are the worst once) incl upper back. The pains are sort of tingling and burning. Also on both my hands.

I mentioned that I still have Lyme disease, so I'm thinking this is the cause. But could it also be related to thyroid or maybe being over medicated?

hypoHashimoto
Veteran Member


Date Joined Jul 2012
Total Posts : 741
   Posted 10/7/2016 5:41 AM (GMT -6)   
Hi RJD76,

First thing is that you need to look at TSH Free T3 and Free T4 from the same blood sample!

Your TSH was 4.6 before starting Levo and how exactly did you reach 100 mcg per day? was that the initial dose for you? if yes then you were on too much T4 as an initial dose, you need to see an Endo and to let him/her adjust your medication properly! but make sure to stay on the same medication and dose for six weeks before performing thyroid function, also if you were positive for Hashimoto's once then there is no need to repeat antibodies.

I think that the symptoms you describe are very likely to be because of the hyperthyroid situation you are currently at, with this low TSH and the amount of FREE T3 you have I have no wonder why you feel chest pain, hyper can cause palpitations, chest tightness and pain and shortness of breath, you can do a quick research on google for a more detailed possible symptoms with hyperthyroidism.

Best of luck,

RJD76
Regular Member


Date Joined Sep 2013
Total Posts : 82
   Posted 10/7/2016 6:19 AM (GMT -6)   
The endo actually put me on 100 mcg from the beginning, to see what happened when my TSH reached 1.
then I started the NDT and it got messed up I guess..TSH right below 2 before starting any NDT.

Will try to find another endo asap if i'm not continuing Armour meds.

Regarding Hashimoto's, can't figure this out: thought my goal was to get rid of the antibodies..Why do I not need to test again?

Thanks again!

hypoHashimoto
Veteran Member


Date Joined Jul 2012
Total Posts : 741
   Posted 10/7/2016 6:49 AM (GMT -6)   
There is no cure for Hashimoto's disease, but the resulting hypothyroidism is the cause for the symptoms, the antibodies that you have are attacking certain proteins in your thyroid gland and thus causing it to become hypo, as a result your brain produces more TSH to stimulate it to produce more, you need to address the hypo by lowering the high TSH and thus become euthyroid, the antibodies will remain positive for life but if you keep taking the Levo in a proper dose you will have no symptoms of hypothyroidism.

100 mcg is a very high initial dose and with your TSH of 4.6 I think that your endo made a big mistake, this huge amount of 100 mcg per day ( 700 mcg per week) will not lower your TSH to around one but it will suppress totally your thyroid gland and make your TSH undetectable with something like <0.001 .

You need to perform thyroid and neck Ultra Sound to see whether you have nodules on your thyroid gland.

RJD76
Regular Member


Date Joined Sep 2013
Total Posts : 82
   Posted 10/7/2016 7:03 AM (GMT -6)   
Thanks! There were no nodules on my thyroid, did that couple of months back. Haven't done neck Ultra Sound yet. Will do asap..

RJD76
Regular Member


Date Joined Sep 2013
Total Posts : 82
   Posted 10/14/2016 9:14 AM (GMT -6)   
hypoHashimoto:

maybe it's wise to just switch back to Levo? As i'm experiencing more and more nerverelated pains and throat/neck pain..And also read how armour can supress the thyroid cause of high t3, as you mentioned earlier..

taking new tests for tsh/ft3/ft4 in 3 days, seeing doc week after that. I dare not go another day on armour if that is the reason i feel this way..

What do you think? 50mcg levo and new tests again in 6 weeks?

Thanks
Tommy

hypoHashimoto
Veteran Member


Date Joined Jul 2012
Total Posts : 741
   Posted 10/14/2016 10:28 AM (GMT -6)   
Hi Tommy,

With your very low TSH it is possible that it is the reason, if I were you I would wait the three days and just then to do the blood tests, but make sure to be six weeks on the same medication and dose so that the results will be informative.

Obviously I can not treat you online because I am not qualified as a specialist, I only give you a direction as to where to go based on my own personal experience, but the best person to treat you is the doctor that you are scheduled for in a week, make sure to take with you the up to date blood test and to ask all the questions that you have!

Best of luck,

Post Edited (hypoHashimoto) : 10/14/2016 10:58:58 AM (GMT-6)


RJD76
Regular Member


Date Joined Sep 2013
Total Posts : 82
   Posted 10/14/2016 2:26 PM (GMT -6)   
Thanks again, hypoHashimoto! Maybe it differs from each person, but what should b the ideal ft3 and ft4 to aim for?

hypoHashimoto
Veteran Member


Date Joined Jul 2012
Total Posts : 741
   Posted 10/14/2016 9:34 PM (GMT -6)   
It is different for each one, the best test to go by is the TSH.

astroman
Veteran Member


Date Joined Mar 2014
Total Posts : 3415
   Posted 10/17/2016 12:41 PM (GMT -6)   
Google adrenal adaptogen herbs. Holy Basil is my favorite. There are abourt 7 herbs, some increase corisol, some level, some lower. Google it

BUT, you need a better test than what your Dr did - that one just once in the morning right?

An adrenal saliva 14 hor, 4 time test tell you when and what is going on. Adrenal levels are different thoughoput the day, the tste shows how you compare. A convention Dr will says its BS. Just cus they were not tought this does not mean its BS. Go to a functional medicine chiropractor for help, or just order the test online your self to get the kit.

The idea is you take what herb you need at what time acording to this test results. easy.

Note: thyroid herbs dont do much for thyroid, but adrenal herbs they do have effects on stress and adrenals.

Many people do this.

Dessicated does not work well if adrenals are messed up. You might want a reverse T3 test to- as this goes up in stressful times - its somewhat related to messed up adrenals.

Post Edited (astroman) : 10/17/2016 12:45:11 PM (GMT-6)

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