probiotics and die off

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damo123
Veteran Member


Date Joined Jul 2007
Total Posts : 677
   Posted 9/23/2008 1:53 PM (GMT -6)   
I go on high dosages of probiotics now and then when I feel my intestines need a bit of help. I always get good results from these high dosages. But I find in the first or second week of taking probiotics I get a mild form of die-off reaction (or what I think is a die off reaction). I find this unusual because I don't use any form of anti-fungal. Once the die off is over I feel really good and my bowel tends to be in really good form.
 
So I'm just wondering whether anyone else experiences any form of die-off reaction i.e. flu like symptoms when they go on high probiotic dosages. I stress again that I don't use any form of anti-fungal supplements.
 
D
 
Probiotics and maintenance 5ASA's in rectal form
 
"Whatever you do in life don't berate yourself too much nor contragulate yourself too much. Your choices are half chance. So are everybody elses'"
 
 
 
 
 
 
 


pb4
Elite Member


Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 18012
   Posted 9/23/2008 2:00 PM (GMT -6)   
It's key to take probiotics daily and indefinitely regardless if you're flaring or not, it should become a part of your everyday life...when you stop taking probiotics for any amount of time it gives the bad bacteria a chance to over-grow and IBDers are prone to bacterial over-growth which is why probiotics daily and indefinitely are essential...taken daily helps keep the flora balanced.

:)
My bum is broken....there's a big crack down the middle of it! LOL :)


kops2da
Veteran Member


Date Joined Jun 2008
Total Posts : 2865
   Posted 9/23/2008 3:40 PM (GMT -6)   
What is "die off"?  ElaineNY

68 yr. old granny
New diagnosed with proctosigmoiditis
canasa and proctofoam
colazal
Probiotic Align
Prilosec for GERD
Inderol for hypertension
Xanax,Lipitor, multivitamin, calcium w/D, Tylenol
Rowasa every night for now- trying Lialda starting Friday
 
 
 
 
 
 


damo123
Veteran Member


Date Joined Jul 2007
Total Posts : 677
   Posted 9/23/2008 3:48 PM (GMT -6)   
"The Herxheimer (die off) reaction occurs when large quantities of toxins are released into the body as bacteria die, due to antibiotic or antifungal treatment.

Typically the death of these bacteria and the associated release of endotoxins occurs faster than the body can remove the toxins via the natural detoxification process performed by the kidneys and liver. It is manifested by fever, chills, headache, myalgia (muscle pain), and exacerbation of skin lesions. Duration in syphilis is normally only a few hours but can be much longer in other diseases. The intensity of the reaction reflects the intensity of inflammation present."

So when you repopulate the gut with good bacteria at high doses a kinda battle takes place and the body needs to release the assoicated toxins. This casues the above symptoms
Probiotics and maintenance 5ASA's in rectal form
 
"Whatever you do in life don't berate yourself too much nor contragulate yourself too much. Your choices are half chance. So are everybody elses'"
 
 
 
 
 
 
 


kops2da
Veteran Member


Date Joined Jun 2008
Total Posts : 2865
   Posted 9/23/2008 3:59 PM (GMT -6)   

Thanks!  I did not understand it all but never heard of it.  Maybe because in my 68 years I have probably had to take antibiotics not more than 20 times if that.  Does not sound like fun!

ElaineNY


68 yr. old granny
New diagnosed with proctosigmoiditis
canasa and proctofoam
colazal
Probiotic Align
Prilosec for GERD
Inderol for hypertension
Xanax,Lipitor, multivitamin, calcium w/D, Tylenol
Rowasa every night for now- trying Lialda starting Friday
 
 
 
 
 
 


mh53mike
Regular Member


Date Joined Aug 2008
Total Posts : 149
   Posted 9/23/2008 5:10 PM (GMT -6)   
interesting...never heard of this "die off" stuff. Anyways i take high dosages of probiotics and never felt better. So i guess no "die off' side effects here. 

26y old male medically disharged USAF veteran.Diagnosed with UC (lower proctitis) in 2004.
 
Current daily treatment:                               Probiotics & supplements:
1000mg sup asacol                                      50 Billion CFU's acidopholis daily
2400mg oral asacol                                      Digestive enzymes before each meal
30mg prednisone tapering                             5grams of glutamine
75mg azathioprine                                       folic acid & calcuim with V-D
20mg Nexum                                               Whey protien  
 
Diet:Little/no sugars, fats, carbs, caffine. Stay natural as possible.  
 
Results:1 Bowel movement in the morning no blood!


princesa
Veteran Member


Date Joined Aug 2007
Total Posts : 2198
   Posted 9/23/2008 5:40 PM (GMT -6)   
Antifungals and probiotics have similar actions in that they both rebalance the gut ecology... antifungals by actually killing off and probiotics by crowding out to put it simply. So it does make sense that you would experience a die-off reaction with high doses of probiotics.
Diagnosed with ulcerative colitis spring 1999.
 
Maintenance dose sulfasalazine.
Probiotics, l-glutamine and fish oil caps. George's aloe vera juice. Oregano oil antibiotic, antiviral, antifungal. Long-term remission with only minor blips.
 
 


kops2da
Veteran Member


Date Joined Jun 2008
Total Posts : 2865
   Posted 9/23/2008 6:20 PM (GMT -6)   

Do you feel there is a connection between internal fungal infection and skin or mucous membrane fungal infections and UC?

I have not had many yeast infections in my life like some women but I have a LOT of fungus that grows under my breasts and other dark, damp places that I clear up with Miconazole.  I am usually treating it someplace.  Once many years ago - 1970's I had fungus infection on my knee and AF doctors took pictures for a medical journal as they considered it "rare". 

ElaineNY

 


68 yr. old granny
New diagnosed with proctosigmoiditis
canasa and proctofoam
colazal
Probiotic Align
Prilosec for GERD
Inderol for hypertension
Xanax,Lipitor, multivitamin, calcium w/D, Tylenol
Rowasa every night for now- trying Lialda starting Friday
 
 
 
 
 
 


princesa
Veteran Member


Date Joined Aug 2007
Total Posts : 2198
   Posted 9/24/2008 9:05 AM (GMT -6)   
Definitely. I never had that many vaginal yeast infections either, but yeast definitely played a part in my gut troubles and also shows up as itchy rashes. Candida-related complex can manifest in myriad ways all over the body. I found the book Candida-related Complex: What Your Doctor Might be Missing to be a real eye opener. I recommend it to anyone who wants to learn more about yeast problems.

http://www.amazon.com/Candida-Related-Complex-Doctor-Might-Missing/dp/0878339353/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1222265081&sr=8-1
Diagnosed with ulcerative colitis spring 1999.
 
Maintenance dose sulfasalazine.
Probiotics, l-glutamine and fish oil caps. George's aloe vera juice. Oregano oil antibiotic, antiviral, antifungal. Long-term remission with only minor blips.
 
 


ucwarrior
Regular Member


Date Joined Jul 2008
Total Posts : 298
   Posted 9/25/2008 12:54 AM (GMT -6)   
Try not taking high doses of probiotics every once and a while but take them on a lower count maintenance level every day. This keeps the "die off" at bay due to overgrowth of gut baddies held in check. The "spike" in large doses of probiotics steals food from all gut ecology and can be a factor in your condition as it starves off undesirables.

Candida alone contains over 150 toxic metabolic byproducts, and some forms of bad bacteria in the gut ecology secrete substances that can really affect how you feel. The trick is to keep these ever-present opportunists in check regardless of your current health status. Your body is constantly at war with these organisms and anti-fungal or not, if your body wins a few battles with its antibodies and slaughters by the billions, "die off" is most assuredly going to occur.
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