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soystud
Veteran Member


Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 5137
   Posted 1/6/2013 12:58 PM (GMT -6)   
just one of a gazillion questions that pops into my head :
 
is healing the same as inflammation reduction ?
 
or put another way, if you eliminate inflammation from the colon, is it healed ?
 
i know, dumb question -- i don't put em in my brain - i just sometimes choose to share the especially ridiculous ones :-)
 

bananagirl
Veteran Member


Date Joined May 2011
Total Posts : 4482
   Posted 1/6/2013 1:09 PM (GMT -6)   
i'd say so. i think if you are in remission, you have healed your colon. if you inflammation is reduced, you are healing.
Joanna, 23
Currently: 3-8 loose bms a day, painful,urgent/bloody
vit D, kefir, cod liver oil, astaxanthin, magnesium,
b12 shots, spatone iron, vit C, colostrum, interfase enzymes,
scdophilus
Tried: canasa, rowasa, entocort, pred, 6mp, remicade,
lialda, welchol, bentyl, LDN, cipro, flagyl, VSL/Vit E enema,
8 FT, clay, aloe vera, slippery elm
diet: paleo/scd

ActiveUCer
Veteran Member


Date Joined Jul 2012
Total Posts : 1685
   Posted 1/6/2013 1:10 PM (GMT -6)   
Hmm, I think the thing that messes this up is the presence of ulcers. You can be healing the ulcers and still have inflammation. I think you can reduce inflammation and still have ulcers. I'm not sure how ulcers and inflammation are linked.

But reducing inflammation is still definitely good!
http://activeguts.wordpress.com/

Drug refractory UC
Colectomy with end ileostomy August 30th, 2012 - jpouch sometime
IBD related arthritis and peristomal pyoderm gangrenosome

Humira, finally off of steroids! Aiming to have Step 2 in August 2013.

Tried lots of drugs and diet, didn't work for me.

DBwithUC
Veteran Member


Date Joined Feb 2011
Total Posts : 1635
   Posted 1/6/2013 1:15 PM (GMT -6)   
you need to be more explicit about "eliminate"

if it amounts to "suppression", and the underlying irritant is still there ... less healing, more management

if it amounts to removing inflammation in some permanent way, likely by addressing the underlying irritant and/or the over-response by the immune system, then this seems more like healing, but it is really more like stopping disease, and healing would have to follow.

if removing inflammation allows mucosal healing which reduces food and bacteria that gets in contact with immune system, this is more like reversing UC and colon healing.

but if there has been some sort of change in gut microbes and/or change in epigenetic settings related to immune response (or growth of mucosal cells), then some other force, beyond removing inflammation, would be needed to flip the epigenetic switches and/or reset the gut microbe ecology.

Post Edited (DBwithUC) : 1/6/2013 11:22:09 AM (GMT-7)


soystud
Veteran Member


Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 5137
   Posted 1/6/2013 1:45 PM (GMT -6)   
so do prednisone, asacol, or other drugs heal or just reduce inflammation ?


what about the big guns - remicade, imuran, etc ? do they heal or do the just get in the way of whatever is attacking the colon ?
diagnosed with pancolitis december 21, 2003
currently taking: -- Astaxanthin,vit D, ALA, DHEA, a smorgassbord of probiotics, & Wild Harvest Inflamma Shield -
No Gluten, Rice, Corn, & Dairy - limited Sugar -
No Meds - Just good, healthy food -
Lots of H2O, exercise & sleep as much as possible & enjoy this great life that God has blessed me with -

Madcat25
Veteran Member


Date Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts : 1111
   Posted 1/6/2013 2:02 PM (GMT -6)   
Think of ulcers as basically cuts. Inflammation causes these cuts and the only way they can heal is if the inflammation stops causing them.

When your body attacks the colon it causes inflammation, so any immunosuppresants like Remi or pred work to lessen the attacks and therefore remove inflammation
Ulcerative Colitis diagnosed Oct 2007. Prednisone for flares until Oct 2012. Currently in hopes of remission with new meds -> so close, 4-6 BM per day usually solid.

Currently on: Prednisone 15 mg, Imuran 50 mg, Remicade 300 mg (3 infusions)
Supplements: Ultimate Flora x 1, L-glutamine 1000 mg x 3, VSL #3 x 1.
Failed: 5-ASA, Asacol

46&crashing
Regular Member


Date Joined Sep 2011
Total Posts : 482
   Posted 1/6/2013 2:38 PM (GMT -6)   
So instead of cuts they are more like where the inflammation causes so much swelling they crack or burst in places causing ulcers? I always thought the ulcers and inflammation were the ulcers causing inflammation instead of the inflammation causing the ulcers.
DX: May 2011
Current meds: Imuran 150 mg
Prednisone 3.5 mg and tapering
Slippery Elm- 1 tsp 2 times daily
Ultimate flora 80
Never had rectal meds.
And this too shall pass!

soystud
Veteran Member


Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 5137
   Posted 1/6/2013 2:50 PM (GMT -6)   
if you are talking in terms of a normal cut, then i'm not sure i get it - inflammation doesn't cause a normal cut - it's me getting crazy on the grapefruit with my ginsu knife and nearly severing my finger - and then the inflammation may begin, depending on the healing capabilities of my body -

so which comes first the ulcer or the inflammation ?
diagnosed with pancolitis december 21, 2003
currently taking: -- Astaxanthin,vit D, ALA, DHEA, a smorgassbord of probiotics, & Wild Harvest Inflamma Shield -
No Gluten, Rice, Corn, & Dairy - limited Sugar -
No Meds - Just good, healthy food -
Lots of H2O, exercise & sleep as much as possible & enjoy this great life that God has blessed me with -

46&crashing
Regular Member


Date Joined Sep 2011
Total Posts : 482
   Posted 1/6/2013 3:58 PM (GMT -6)   
THAT is the question. :)
DX: May 2011
Current meds: Imuran 150 mg
Prednisone 3.5 mg and tapering
Slippery Elm- 1 tsp 2 times daily
Ultimate flora 80
Never had rectal meds.
And this too shall pass!

quincy
Elite Member


Date Joined May 2003
Total Posts : 25764
   Posted 1/6/2013 4:08 PM (GMT -6)   
It's progression of inflammation, so please remember that not all of us have ulcerative inflammation all the time.

Ulcers...there are surface ulcerations like teeny blisters that happen..like bleeding under the surface that's easily broken hence the fragility and bloody bms. It's a more severe state of inflammation. That would have to "heal" enough with meds to stop the bleeding. Inflammation would still be left...that, in itself, would cause diarrhea, mucus, urgency...etc.

The inflammation progresses in a flare or as one is "healing" from a flare.

Some of us can also get "ulcers" that are deeper into the submucosal layer...singular ulcers that can remain I think even if the inflammation around it might improve...I think they can take much longer to heal. Or, they might remain as an entity of itself...Seems some of our members have suffered from this.

I have HEALED from using the oral/rectal 5ASA meds over the past 24 years. The area that was initially inflamed at diagnosis, is no longer visible as being inflamed.

There doesn't seem to be any cellular changes in that area...probably because it's not been an area that's been continually inflamed. But in the rectum, where the flares start and heal last, there's obvious cellular changes from more intense and continued inflammation.

Bleeding is NOT a symptom I have had much in the past 20 years during flares.....the sole reason is because I treat flares early upon certain symptoms. As well...I am now only tapering eventually to twice a week enemas.

So, for some of us, we heal, but not in all the areas. And it's most important if all areas are "covered".

5ASA meds are also touted in helping to lower cellular changes that can possibly lead to cancer.

q
*Heather* I give suggestions, do with them what you will.
Status: ...Asacol 3 @ 2x daily; Salofalk enema @ 3rd night (nightly/ flares, tapered/maintenance)
~diagnosed January 1989 UC (proctosigmoiditis)
~Bentylol 20mg as needed; Zantac 150mg; Pulmicort/Airomir (asthma);Effexor XR 37.5 (depression)
~vitamins/minerals/supplements; Probiotics....(RenewLife Ultimate Flora Critical Care+Primadophilus Reuteri capsules @ bedtime)
~Metamucil capsules 6 twice daily with meals; Vitamin D 4500 IU
~URSO for PBC(or PSC?) 500mg X 2 daily (LFTs back to NORMAL!!)
My doc's logic.. "TREAT (FROM)BOTH ENDS" worth it !!!

ItsAlwaysSomething
Veteran Member


Date Joined Oct 2011
Total Posts : 1407
   Posted 1/6/2013 4:22 PM (GMT -6)   
http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/inflammatory-bowel-disease/DS01195/DSECTION=complications

According to the Mayo Clinic, chronic inflammation leads to ulcers.

When I was first diagnosed 10 years ago, my GI said (after the colonoscopy) that my colon looked like it was dragged behind my car. (She thought she was funny.) I had colitis (inflammation and ulcers) throughout the entire colon. And, believe me, I could feel it.
At my last GI visit, the Dr. said my colon is free of inflammation except for about 40 cm from the anus to the descending colon.

I asked for and got a script for mesalamine enemas to hopefully deal with the remaining inflammation. My GI said to use them every 3 days.
Also plan to stay with generic Colazal, probiotics, vitamins and supplements as well as diet restrictions most of the time. (I allow myself to cheat a little but compensate with slippery elm.)

It's been a long time coming but I'm happy to say it was worth avoiding the more dangerous meds.

Now to deal with the hemmies, I'm going to see about THD. :-)
Female, USA
Diagnosed pancolitis 12/2003, Colazal generic (balsalazide).
Benebiotics probiotic, multi-vitamin with iron, Starwest organic slippery elm powder, L-Glutamine, fish oil, Green coffee bean extract. Avoid lactose and most gluten products.

Post Edited (ItsAlwaysSomething) : 1/7/2013 2:55:51 PM (GMT-7)


ItsAlwaysSomething
Veteran Member


Date Joined Oct 2011
Total Posts : 1407
   Posted 1/7/2013 4:59 PM (GMT -6)   
Good explanation, Quincy.

Sounds like you and I are in pretty much the same place in the healing process.
:-)
Female, USA
Diagnosed pancolitis 12/2003, Colazal generic (balsalazide).
Benebiotics probiotic, multi-vitamin with iron, Starwest organic slippery elm powder, L-Glutamine, fish oil, Green coffee bean extract. Avoid lactose and most gluten products.

Pluot
Veteran Member


Date Joined May 2012
Total Posts : 2276
   Posted 1/7/2013 7:34 PM (GMT -6)   
I think about it in terms of the way that pred 'works'... when you're on prednisone, your body actually heals a lot more slowly (think about cuts and bruises you get while on pred for example). You'd think that would be bad for UC because the lining of your colon heals more slowly as well. *However*, because pred reduces inflammation, it allows the body to heal the colon (albeit slowly), which isn't possible when the inflammation is active.
liz, 26
http://itslikethisuc.blogspot.com

dx'ed UC pancolitis 5/12 w/ moderate-severe inflammation

past meds: asacol hd, VSL#3, apriso, rowasa, xifaxan, 6mp, cortifoam, pentasa, cimzia, canasa, butyrate

current meds: flagyl, cipro, prednisone, remicade, methotrexate, cholestyramine, cortenema

supplements: folic acid, vitamin d, potassium

quincy
Elite Member


Date Joined May 2003
Total Posts : 25764
   Posted 1/8/2013 1:19 AM (GMT -6)   
Prednisone (systemic), while a very viable medication, can set the body up for a crap load of other stuff and conceal other issues that may be happening at the same time.

I, personally, don't think it's the best medication for UC....and certainly not one to use for any length of time.

I'd not compare it to how 5ASa meds can heal the colon...different animal.

Topical steroids...good for periods of time and for boosts of healing...I don't think they've perfected the topical steroids yet as they have for lung inhalers.

q
*Heather* I give suggestions, do with them what you will.
Status: ...Asacol 3 @ 2x daily; Salofalk enema @ 3rd night (nightly/ flares, tapered/maintenance)
~diagnosed January 1989 UC (proctosigmoiditis)
~Bentylol 20mg as needed; Zantac 150mg; Pulmicort/Airomir (asthma);Effexor XR 37.5 (depression)
~vitamins/minerals/supplements; Probiotics....(RenewLife Ultimate Flora Critical Care+Primadophilus Reuteri capsules @ bedtime)
~Metamucil capsules 6 twice daily with meals; Vitamin D 4500 IU
~URSO for PBC(or PSC?) 500mg X 2 daily (LFTs back to NORMAL!!)
My doc's logic.. "TREAT (FROM)BOTH ENDS" worth it !!!

Pluot
Veteran Member


Date Joined May 2012
Total Posts : 2276
   Posted 1/8/2013 4:05 AM (GMT -6)   
q I totally agree, I was just using the way that prednisone works as an example of how healing is different from lack of inflammation
liz, 26
http://itslikethisuc.blogspot.com

dx'ed UC pancolitis 5/12 w/ moderate-severe inflammation

past meds: asacol hd, VSL#3, apriso, rowasa, xifaxan, 6mp, cortifoam, pentasa, cimzia, canasa, butyrate

current meds: flagyl, cipro, prednisone, remicade, methotrexate, cholestyramine, cortenema

supplements: folic acid, vitamin d, potassium

soystud
Veteran Member


Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 5137
   Posted 1/10/2013 9:18 PM (GMT -6)   
so heather - do you think pred is over-prescribed/over -used ?

do you think people would ultimately heal faster if they didn't rely on pred for a quick fix ?
diagnosed with pancolitis december 21, 2003
currently taking: -- Astaxanthin,vit D, ALA, DHEA, a smorgassbord of probiotics, & Wild Harvest Inflamma Shield -
No Gluten, Rice, Corn, & Dairy - limited Sugar -
No Meds - Just good, healthy food -
Lots of H2O, exercise & sleep as much as possible & enjoy this great life that God has blessed me with -

Madcat25
Veteran Member


Date Joined Oct 2012
Total Posts : 1111
   Posted 1/10/2013 11:28 PM (GMT -6)   
People would heal slower without pred, but they would probably stat in remission longer which should be everyones ultimate goal. It sucks to be flaring but if you had to flare a few weeks longer to stat in remission longer you probably would. Although during the flare itself its a different mindset you just want it gone!
ASK THE CAT
UC Forum Moderator

Ulcerative Colitis diagnosed Oct 2007. Prednisone for flares until Oct 2012. Half-remission from Remicade.
Currently on: Prednisone 20 mg, Imuran 50 mg, Remicade 300 mg (3 infusions)
Supplements: Ultimate Flora x 1, L-glutamine 1000 mg x 1, VSL #3 x 1

twiggs
Veteran Member


Date Joined Mar 2012
Total Posts : 759
   Posted 1/11/2013 2:09 PM (GMT -6)   
Soy, Yes Yes and I think Yes..I at least would think so. Oh yea what Q said too..
 
Is it Friday yet?


Steve

quincy
Elite Member


Date Joined May 2003
Total Posts : 25764
   Posted 1/11/2013 3:07 PM (GMT -6)   
soystud...yes, overused and overprescribed. But in all fairness, those who are in a serious state would be treated with it immediately and probably need to get that kick to help dampen the inflammation fairly quickly.
It's also a very inexpensive medication.

Patients are under the impression that pred will have their symptoms go away totally...not so.

Some UCers do well on it initially, and progress to not do well on it.

They also forsake using other meds such as 5ASAs, and from what I see on here....aren't able to get off the pred without other serious issues that can last their entire lifetime.

I'd rather have just UC than suffer from another chronic/serious issue caused by prednisone, especially if the doctor didn't offer me the other options first. not that there's ANYTHING NEW with 5ASA being recognised as a treatment...I'm only talking from 24 years experience using it, tho.

q
*Heather* I give suggestions, do with them what you will.
Status: ...Asacol 3 @ 2x daily; Salofalk enema @ 3rd night (nightly/ flares, tapered/maintenance)
~diagnosed January 1989 UC (proctosigmoiditis)
~Bentylol 20mg as needed; Zantac 150mg; Pulmicort/Airomir (asthma);Effexor XR 37.5 (depression)
~vitamins/minerals/supplements; Probiotics....(RenewLife Ultimate Flora Critical Care+Primadophilus Reuteri capsules @ bedtime)
~Metamucil capsules 6 twice daily with meals; Vitamin D 4500 IU
~URSO for PBC(or PSC?) 500mg X 2 daily (LFTs back to NORMAL!!)
My doc's logic.. "TREAT (FROM)BOTH ENDS" worth it !!!
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