Acne and gut bacteria

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MaxMilian
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Date Joined Dec 2010
Total Posts : 1236
   Posted 10/9/2013 7:59 AM (GMT -7)   
For the last month and a half I stopped any sort of probiotic regime because I was preparing for a comprehensive stool analysis. During that time I had almost no acne breakouts on my face. I got the test results back a week ago which said I had almost no bifido, lacto or entrococcus (sp?) in my gut. So I immediately started a probiotic with all the above subspecies.

A day or so after starting the probiotics, I started having breakouts around my face. Cause and effect? Or is it just a coincidence?
2010: DX proctitis, IBS, cecum inflammation
2012: DX Crohns? (mild ulcers on terminal ileum), fructose + sorbitol malabsorption, non-toxigenic c.diff
Things I've Tried: Pentasa (Oral and rectal), Salofalk (Oral), FMTs (6 infusions)
STATUS: 23/03/2013 c-scope + biopsies showed zero inflammation. Still have IBS
CURRENT MEDS: Pentasa supps + oral tabs

quincy
Elite Member


Date Joined May 2003
Total Posts : 25884
   Posted 10/9/2013 8:59 AM (GMT -7)   
Could be coincidence...but you'd have to try going off them again and see if it changes.

what else did you change while off them? That could also be a hint.

I don't know if where you are has weather changes, but for some people, that can seem to exacerbate break-outs.

q
*Heather* I give suggestions, do with them what you will.
Status: ...Asacol 3 @ 2x daily; Salofalk enema @ 3rd night (nightly/ flares, tapered/maintenance)
~diagnosed January 1989 UC (proctosigmoiditis)
~Bentylol 20mg as needed; Zantac 150mg; Pulmicort/Airomir (asthma);Effexor XR 37.5 (depression)
~vitamins/minerals/supplements; Probiotics....(RenewLife Ultimate Flora Critical Care+Primadophilus Reuteri capsules @ bedtime)
~Metamucil capsules 6 twice daily with meals; Vitamin D 4500 IU
~URSO for PBC(or PSC?) 500mg X 2 daily (LFTs back to NORMAL!!)
My doc's logic.. "TREAT (FROM)BOTH ENDS" worth it !!!

garylouisville
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Date Joined Aug 2012
Total Posts : 7150
   Posted 10/9/2013 11:11 AM (GMT -7)   
Awful big coincidence. What is the name of the probiotic you are taking?
Lialda 1 pillX3; VSL#3 112.5mgs 1 pillX2; Prescrip Assist Probiotic 1 pill X 2;Vitamin D3 5000 ius 1 pillX2;Levsin;DAO;Folic acid;CCHerbal 1 pillX3

Discontinued: Robinul; Natural - peppermint oil, Inflaguard (Boswellia), Pepto Bismol, Omega 3 fish oil, Imodium, Beano, Lactaid;Zymactive, Renew Life Probiotic 80 billion, Florastor, DGL, Monolaurin, slippery elm;black cherry concentrate

notsosicklygirl
Forum Moderator


Date Joined Dec 2008
Total Posts : 10614
   Posted 10/9/2013 12:40 PM (GMT -7)   
I would think it's coincidence too. I have had terrible acne at different points in time throughout my life and I can tell you with decent accuracy that mine is almost always related to hormones. Not to say this is the case for you, but in my case, the only thing that has ever combated the acne is hormones. I've never gotten any result from creams, cleansers, lotions, gels, supplements... well, I wouldn't go crazy thinking you're going to be pimply forever, it's probably just a fluke and will clear up without doing much.
Co-moderator: Ulcerative Colitis
Diagnosed with Pancolitis, Laryngopharyngeal Reflux & Migraines. Battling Extreme Exhaustion.
Currently: 6mp (25mg) + Lialda (2400mg) + Canasa (1g PM)

MaxMilian
Veteran Member


Date Joined Dec 2010
Total Posts : 1236
   Posted 10/9/2013 3:10 PM (GMT -7)   
Q: I didn't change anything else. But to be fair I can't remember why my break outs stopped a month and a half ago. Normally I'll have some mild but consistent acne on my face. I can't remember if the reduction in break outs correlated with me stopping all probiotics or not.

Gary: I am taking 3 probiotics: Nexabiotics, store bought Kefir and a Chinese probiotic.

NSG: Tbh, I would much rather be pimply forever and have perfect poos/gut functionality than perfect skin but an unpredictable colon. I guess the reason I matched the acne with gut bacteria was also because my UC began after acne treatment (2 years of heavy duty antibiotics)... though after developing UC (and stopping the antibiotics), I still had breakouts that peaked and troughed... so perhaps acne and gut bacteria aren't related...
2010: DX proctitis, IBS, cecum inflammation
2012: DX Crohns? (mild ulcers on terminal ileum), fructose + sorbitol malabsorption, non-toxigenic c.diff
Things I've Tried: Pentasa (Oral and rectal), Salofalk (Oral), FMTs (6 infusions)
STATUS: 23/03/2013 c-scope + biopsies showed zero inflammation. Still have IBS
CURRENT MEDS: Pentasa supps + oral tabs

notsosicklygirl
Forum Moderator


Date Joined Dec 2008
Total Posts : 10614
   Posted 10/9/2013 3:44 PM (GMT -7)   
I have been in remission and my skin is clear. I think it's from spirnolactone and birth control pills. Can't be sure though. Maybe I finally outgrew the acne. I'd love to believe that but I have to remember that under a year ago I had loads of pimples. It's probably the meds. If i weren't so acne prone, I would definitely stop taking the spirno - luckily it doesn't seem to cause me UC isses.
Co-moderator: Ulcerative Colitis
Diagnosed with Pancolitis, Laryngopharyngeal Reflux & Migraines. Battling Extreme Exhaustion.
Currently: 6mp (25mg) + Lialda (2400mg) + Canasa (1g PM)

MikeSoCal
Regular Member


Date Joined Sep 2013
Total Posts : 303
   Posted 10/9/2013 4:09 PM (GMT -7)   
Now you have got me thinking. I switched probiotics last Friday or Saturday. Sunday I started breaking out, skin has been clear for years. Originally I just thought it was the prednisone, but I had been on it for over a month and was wondering why the acne just popped up out of nowhere.

Might go back to my old probiotic and see if it clears up.
Diagnosis:
Severe UC, 75% of colon, Aug 2013 (30 years old)

Current Meds:
Remicade 10mg/kg - 4 Week interval
Asacol HD 800 mg - 1 tab 3 x day - 2400 mg
Prednisone 10 mg - 2 tabs 2 x day - 40 mg
Azathioprine 50 mg - 1 tab 2 x day - 100 mg
Pantoprazole 40 mg - 1 tab 2 x day - 80 mg
Vicodin 5-300 mg - 1 tab currently 3 x day - 900 mg
Ultimate Flora Critical Care 50 Billion 10 Probiotic Strains
Nature's Way Alive! Multi-Vitamin/Mineral

Past Meds:
Lialda - Stopped due to bad reaction
Delzicol - Took while in the hospital
Flagyl - Took while in the hospital
Cipro - Took while in the hospital

TheAnswersYouSeek
Veteran Member


Date Joined Jan 2013
Total Posts : 2543
   Posted 10/9/2013 4:19 PM (GMT -7)   
What else did your stool test say? Any yeast?

MaxMilian
Veteran Member


Date Joined Dec 2010
Total Posts : 1236
   Posted 10/9/2013 7:54 PM (GMT -7)   
Mike: Keep us up to date. I'd be interesting if your acne clears.

Pathogen: All readings for the stool itself were normal (eg. cholesterol, short chained fatty acids, triglycerides, fat globules and vegetable fibres). pH is slightly on the low side (5.8), which is slightly below the normal minmum of 6. This indicates my gut is slightly more acidic than it should be.

I had an abnormally high range of meat fibers and starch cells too, indicating I am not digesting meats or carbohydrates very well. This seems weird because I have been gaining weight (about 1.5 months ago I started exercising and eating massive amounts of food. I went from 50kg to 60kg - my current weight. 60kg is a weight I struggled to gain even years before I had IBD. I had to literally drink 2 weight gaining protein shakes a day in order to even hold that weight... so now that I have gained that weight and held it by simply eating normal food and exercising is quite an achievement).

There was no pus, mucus, red or white blood cells on all three samples indicating my symptoms are IBS not IBD. No cysts, parasites, ovas or yeasts (even after culturing).

The main problem appears to be a severe gut dysbiosis (my rating was 8 out of 10. A normal symbiotic gut microbiome should be at most a 3 out of 10). I have a sufficient amount of Escherichia coli (probably due to me previously supplementing with Mutaflor) but almost no Strep/Enterococci, Lactobacilli or Bifidobacterium subspecies.

I also have a higher than normal mount of Klesiella and Citrobacter. They have recommended treating this with citrus extract (grapeseed extract).

At this point, after the results, I have been introducing probiotic supplementation as well as sporadic use of digestive enzymes (Q-Zyme Ultra - 21 different digestive enzymes). So far, my stools seem slightly more brown than before but almost all symptoms are still present (eg. loose stools, urgency when eating, gurgling tummy especially when eating).

I have an appointment with my G.I tomorrow and also have an MRI Enterography scheduled (MRI of the small bowels). This was requested by me.

This is the third comprehensive stool test (amongst many many other individual stool tests) that I have done. I've also had blood samples taken to test my liver (under the possibility that my gut problems were due to issues with my bile output) which were all normal. I had a colonoscopy in late March this year that was all normal too. This is why I am really frustrated because I can't seem to find and isolate my gut problem. All the GPs I've seen have told me its my head and my anxieties are interacting with my gut but I don't believe that for a second because all my issues started immediately after FMT treatment.

Those who are aware of my situation will know I've tried a plethora of treatments this year with hardly any change in symptoms. Mood wise I am depressed but in a semi-state of limbo because I am grateful that structurally theres nothing wrong with my gut but functionally, I feel worse than before completing the FMTs...
2010: DX proctitis, IBS, cecum inflammation
2012: DX Crohns? (mild ulcers on terminal ileum), fructose + sorbitol malabsorption, non-toxigenic c.diff
Things I've Tried: Pentasa (Oral and rectal), Salofalk (Oral), FMTs (6 infusions)
STATUS: 23/03/2013 c-scope + biopsies showed zero inflammation. Still have IBS
CURRENT MEDS: Pentasa supps + oral tabs

TheAnswersYouSeek
Veteran Member


Date Joined Jan 2013
Total Posts : 2543
   Posted 10/9/2013 8:02 PM (GMT -7)   
The Klebsiella is impt. I'll be curious to see what happens when you add the gse. I say it's die off from the Klebsiella and citro being taken out by the probiotics you are introing. It should stablize out in a couple weeks.

What are your symptoms besides acne?

MaxMilian
Veteran Member


Date Joined Dec 2010
Total Posts : 1236
   Posted 10/9/2013 8:05 PM (GMT -7)   
Other symptoms from the probiotic supplementation? Only acne (if it really is the probiotics causing my acne). My gut symptoms haven't really changed (well I was farting more immediately after initiating the supplementation and my tummy is gurgling slightly more) but that's about it.
2010: DX proctitis, IBS, cecum inflammation
2012: DX Crohns? (mild ulcers on terminal ileum), fructose + sorbitol malabsorption, non-toxigenic c.diff
Things I've Tried: Pentasa (Oral and rectal), Salofalk (Oral), FMTs (6 infusions)
STATUS: 23/03/2013 c-scope + biopsies showed zero inflammation. Still have IBS
CURRENT MEDS: Pentasa supps + oral tabs

TheAnswersYouSeek
Veteran Member


Date Joined Jan 2013
Total Posts : 2543
   Posted 10/9/2013 8:13 PM (GMT -7)   
What are your gut symptoms? Sorry, haven't followed your entire story.

MaxMilian
Veteran Member


Date Joined Dec 2010
Total Posts : 1236
   Posted 10/9/2013 8:19 PM (GMT -7)   
Loose stools, interchanging colour between yellow and brown, diarrhea 2 - 3 times a week (sometimes more), solid firm stools 2 - 3 times a week (sometimes more), urgency and farting whilst eating/shortly after eating, mild stomach cramps when eating. 3 - 4 BMs per day (rarely 2 or 5 per day), urgency immediately when waking up, passing gas that feels like I am passing stool (so need to use the bathroom just to have a fart).

most BMs are formed to begin with but end up with D at the end.
2010: DX proctitis, IBS, cecum inflammation
2012: DX Crohns? (mild ulcers on terminal ileum), fructose + sorbitol malabsorption, non-toxigenic c.diff
Things I've Tried: Pentasa (Oral and rectal), Salofalk (Oral), FMTs (6 infusions)
STATUS: 23/03/2013 c-scope + biopsies showed zero inflammation. Still have IBS
CURRENT MEDS: Pentasa supps + oral tabs

Post Edited (MaxMilian) : 10/9/2013 8:22:43 PM (GMT-6)


TheAnswersYouSeek
Veteran Member


Date Joined Jan 2013
Total Posts : 2543
   Posted 10/9/2013 10:07 PM (GMT -7)   
It sounds like it may just be SIBO since your gut bacteria is so outta whack.. Try to keep up on the probiotics to replenish and maybe it just needs some time. I'll keep my fingers crossed for you that this new info is just what you need to get everything back in line! It's likely to get a bit worse as things get unseated and repopulated. Good luck! Kleb really can wreck havoc.

MaxMilian
Veteran Member


Date Joined Dec 2010
Total Posts : 1236
   Posted 10/10/2013 2:54 AM (GMT -7)   
Thanks. I did test for SIBO, twice (both negative) if I recall correctly but now I can't remember if that was pre or post FMT... I've done so many tests now I can't remember...

I am sure I did one a week after my FMTs.
2010: DX proctitis, IBS, cecum inflammation
2012: DX Crohns? (mild ulcers on terminal ileum), fructose + sorbitol malabsorption, non-toxigenic c.diff
Things I've Tried: Pentasa (Oral and rectal), Salofalk (Oral), FMTs (6 infusions)
STATUS: 23/03/2013 c-scope + biopsies showed zero inflammation. Still have IBS
CURRENT MEDS: Pentasa supps + oral tabs

TheAnswersYouSeek
Veteran Member


Date Joined Jan 2013
Total Posts : 2543
   Posted 10/10/2013 9:56 AM (GMT -7)   
But SIBO is when your bacteria is off just like you detailed above ;)

MaxMilian
Veteran Member


Date Joined Dec 2010
Total Posts : 1236
   Posted 10/10/2013 10:10 AM (GMT -7)   
Isn't SIBO when you have an abnormally high amount of bacteria in your small bowels (small bowels should have little to no bacteria, large intestines should have most of the bacteria).
2010: DX proctitis, IBS, cecum inflammation
2012: DX Crohns? (mild ulcers on terminal ileum), fructose + sorbitol malabsorption, non-toxigenic c.diff
Things I've Tried: Pentasa (Oral and rectal), Salofalk (Oral), FMTs (6 infusions)
STATUS: 23/03/2013 c-scope + biopsies showed zero inflammation. Still have IBS
CURRENT MEDS: Pentasa supps + oral tabs

TheAnswersYouSeek
Veteran Member


Date Joined Jan 2013
Total Posts : 2543
   Posted 10/10/2013 11:18 AM (GMT -7)   
Meh, I use the term interchangeably which isn't technically correct but it's basically the same thing and they use some of the same tests. It's not an abnormally high number always, it's a number out of proportion, which yours def are. SBBO is halmarked by much of what you describe.. The gas, the transit issues (as evidenced by poop color), the not digesting protein and starch.. Klebsiella is a small bowel inhabitant, living primarily at the edge of the small and large bowel.
www.digestivedistress.com/sites/default/files/pdf/sbbo.pdf

But if you've had the test and that isn't it, perhaps this explanation of all the related dysbiosis possibilities will help you
vitality-rx.livejournal.com/1206.html
oneearthherbs.squarespace.com/diseases/intestinal-dysbiosis.html

Citrobacter, fav place to live is the distal colon and its been implicated in Uc. I wonder if you might have pushed it upwards with the enemas. It is a pretty yucky lil pathogen and shouldn't be a primary colonizer of your intestines. Those two buddies together with the high ecoli (yes, I know they say it isn't the pathogenic kind) = bacterial overgrowth to me because they simply should not be there in large numbers.
www.antimicrobe.org/b93.asp
www.independent.co.uk/news/science/microbe-of-the-month-citrobacter-freundii-1590932.html

MaxMilian
Veteran Member


Date Joined Dec 2010
Total Posts : 1236
   Posted 10/10/2013 12:21 PM (GMT -7)   
quite possible. I definitely have abnormal symptoms but none terribly severe, just really annoying. I might consider a retest for SIBO in the future. I started the citrus extract today.
2010: DX proctitis, IBS, cecum inflammation
2012: DX Crohns? (mild ulcers on terminal ileum), fructose + sorbitol malabsorption, non-toxigenic c.diff
Things I've Tried: Pentasa (Oral and rectal), Salofalk (Oral), FMTs (6 infusions)
STATUS: 23/03/2013 c-scope + biopsies showed zero inflammation. Still have IBS
CURRENT MEDS: Pentasa supps + oral tabs
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