Radical Induction Theory-Time to re-visit

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loulou82
Regular Member


Date Joined Feb 2014
Total Posts : 74
   Posted 4/20/2017 10:10 AM (GMT -6)   
Wow this is really interesting, I've been taking a probiotic supplement that only contains lactobacillus strains. I'm definitely going to stop taking them as of today. I'm still flaring so don't think they've helped anyway. I'm really curious now about which strains produce peroxide and which ones don't! I take it from the second article you posted that the bifidobacterium do not produce hydrogen peroxide?
34, Left sided colitis. Diagnosed 03/17
Hashimotos thyroiditis & acid reflux

Currently taking:
04/17 predsol enemas, 20mg Omeprazole, 100mcg levothyroxine
Prev tried:
01/17 reaction to pentasa enema, 03/17 reaction to entocort enemas

Waiting follow up with GI to start oral meds
Diet: Gluten free, limited dairy
Supplements: lglutamine, glycine, biotin, Omega3 & vitD

Old Mike
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Date Joined Jan 2007
Total Posts : 3755
   Posted 4/20/2017 12:10 PM (GMT -6)   
Looks like bifido are ok, but if I remember correctly they might bother me, but I cant
be sure now if it was a single strain probiotic or not.

If you take probiotics whether they make you worse or better might depend on your
antioxidant status,as far as converting peroxide to water.
The nitty gritty is complex, but the basic concept should be easy for everyone to understand.
Old Mike
UC-1980, same flare since 1986. Still smoke. MEDS: None
SELENIUM for GPx, Zinc,NAC, glycine up to 10 grams a day, for Glutathione. Folate,B12.
SOD makes me worse. Why. Makes too much hydrogen peroxide from superoxide,
then not enough GPx and catalase to convert to water,then makes hydroxyl radical.
Curcumin-Thins my blood too much.

loulou82
Regular Member


Date Joined Feb 2014
Total Posts : 74
   Posted 4/20/2017 12:25 PM (GMT -6)   
Yes the basic concept is easy to understand, it's when I start digging into the detail it all gets very complex. Thanks for sharing the information, I'm still reading back over a lot of it to get my head around some of the detail. It's fascinating.
34, Left sided colitis. Diagnosed 03/17
Hashimotos thyroiditis & acid reflux

Currently taking:
04/17 predsol enemas, 20mg Omeprazole, 100mcg levothyroxine
Prev tried:
01/17 reaction to pentasa enema, 03/17 reaction to entocort enemas

Waiting follow up with GI to start oral meds
Diet: Gluten free, limited dairy
Supplements: lglutamine, glycine, biotin, Omega3 & vitD

Old Mike
Veteran Member


Date Joined Jan 2007
Total Posts : 3755
   Posted 4/21/2017 7:58 AM (GMT -6)   
Here is another ROS generator.
NADPH oxidase.
Inhibitors, folate,berberine,I might guess there are others.

Like I said in another post I used to try and take supplements one or a few at a time so
I could determine what might be working if anything. Seems that nothing works for me anyway.
However now coming to the conclusion that if there is any chance to fix the mess,
that a multiple supplement approach might be necessary. This is due to the fact that there
are so many metabolic pathways that need to be blocked or upregulated.
Old Mike
/bmcgastroenterol.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1471-230X-13-159

looks like I am becoming forgetful, I have a 2014 thread on nadph oxidase
www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=38&m=3200657

here is something on butyrate and histone deacetylase, yet when they tested butyrate enemas
on UC people, it did not do much good
/www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2959755

Post Edited (Old Mike) : 4/24/2017 8:57:36 AM (GMT-6)


LoopyLoo
Regular Member


Date Joined Jan 2017
Total Posts : 36
   Posted 4/21/2017 12:54 PM (GMT -6)   
That's interesting. Apparently hydrocortisone is a NADPH oxidase inhibitor (this is all new learning for me):

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC322611

Looks like some flavanoids are also inhibiors:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2959755

In a way it's good that you've tried these supplements before because although they didn't work for you individually you will know which ones to avoid or build up dosage slowly if you had any adverse effects previously. From reading all the information and I'm sure I've got more to read it definitely sounds like a multi supplement approach is worth a shot.

Old Mike
Veteran Member


Date Joined Jan 2007
Total Posts : 3755
   Posted 4/24/2017 7:22 AM (GMT -6)   
I urge everyone to read Pravdas patent.
It explains what is going on with UC, quite well from a peroxide standpoint.
The RIT still makes the most sense to me, since when I quit smoking in 1977 got UC 1980.
Starting smoking again in 82 went into remission until 86 when I tried quitting again.
But ever since then no remission even with smoking.

Key points, he explains.
The electron transport chain in smoking.
Why UC hits in the rectum first.
Glutathione peroxidase more important than catalase.
Many other aspects,including Calcium pyruvate

Old Mike

/www.google.com/patents/US8476233

here is something on peroxide inducing tnf which I dont think Pravda covered
I have not looked into to this in the past

/www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18562577

more info peroxide and tnf = double wammy
/www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20845069

here is something on RA and Remicade reducing ROS
[url]http://www.clinexprheumatol.org/article.asp?a=3268[/url

this is for reference I have not tried calcium pyruavte yet which is an antioxidant




full article on calcium pyruavate-read it
Something is going strange with links, cant post properly

Post Edited (Old Mike) : 4/24/2017 8:59:54 AM (GMT-6)


Old Mike
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Date Joined Jan 2007
Total Posts : 3755
   Posted 4/24/2017 9:03 AM (GMT -6)   

FlowersGal
Regular Member


Date Joined Feb 2017
Total Posts : 341
   Posted 4/24/2017 10:59 PM (GMT -6)   
Since you guys seem to understand all this better than I -- can I ask some advice about supplements? Basically what I've been doing is throwing everything plus the kitchen sink at it and I'm getting worried that I'm overdoing the supplements. Plus spending a lot of $$$ probably unnecessarily (but the vitamin shop loves me!)

So what out of the following supplements would you consider the best four UC?

Curcurmin, l-glutamine, zinc, coq10, boswellia, glycine, colostrum, reservatol, quercetin.
Partial Colectomy for diverticulitis Sept 2014
UC Diagnosis March 2016 - 18 days in hospital with pancolitis
Apriso .375 g x 4/day
Canasa suppositories as needed
Methotrexate 2.5 mg x 4/week
Levothyroxine .50 mcg/day
Zoloft for depression
Supplements: Zinc, L-glutamine, VSL #3, Folic Acid, CoQ10, turmeric,
Started Entyvio Wed., 3/29/17
Constant flares since March 2016 only relieved by Prednisone

Old Mike
Veteran Member


Date Joined Jan 2007
Total Posts : 3755
   Posted 4/25/2017 4:43 AM (GMT -6)   
I am afraid you might have to experiment, to see what might work for you if anything.
Some do well on curcumin, but it did nothing for me except make my blood thin.
Zinc, vitamin D,Selenium,for sure.
Rutin as opposed to quercetin, rutin makes it to the colon. I have done tons,did nothing.
Methyl folate as opposed to folic acid it you can handle it, gave me D,
but I am now trying at a lower dose.
Nac,theronine to make mucus,glycine to make glutathione with NAC.

But as I said before no supplement seems to do anything for me.
But I have had many adverse events from certain supplements.
I have boxes of stuff.

You can save some money if you buy on ebay, many times but not always it is less
expensive, than local.

This might not be the best thread to get the answers you are looking for.

Old Mike

Post Edited (Old Mike) : 4/25/2017 5:45:09 AM (GMT-6)


LoopyLoo
Regular Member


Date Joined Jan 2017
Total Posts : 36
   Posted 4/25/2017 12:43 PM (GMT 0)   
Thanks for the links old Mike, some more very interesting articles all pointing to the same issue perpetuating the ongoing cycle of UC. Can see that glutathione peroxidase is more important than catalase, just trying to pick out all the supplements that will help increase glutathione in the colon but that won't have counteracting side effects. Because these are new supplements for me I want to introduce them slowly to make sure I don't have negative effects. Keen to give them a go though!

Interesting article about calcium pyruvate too, will have to do some research on this particular antioxidant.

Old Mike
Veteran Member


Date Joined Jan 2007
Total Posts : 3755
   Posted 4/27/2017 7:57 AM (GMT -6)   
this one real interesting antioxidant defense in erythrocytes
also indicates that in crohns the defense is exhausted,even in remission.
Never looked at erythrocytes before. This on a bit technical on the method, but helps
explain what goes on in RBC's with IBD.

Also from another paper I have read it takes 3-4 months of selenium supplements to replete
the red blood cells, at that is in newly formed ones as far as antioxidant capacity.

Old Mike
www.academia.edu/22398923/Antioxidant_defense_in_erythrocytes_and_plasma_of_patients_with_active_and_quiescent_Crohn_disease_and_ulcerative_colitis_a_chemiluminescent_study

LoopyLoo
Regular Member


Date Joined Jan 2017
Total Posts : 36
   Posted 4/28/2017 4:33 AM (GMT -6)   
Interesting article. Again supporting the oxidation theory. Thanks Old Mike.

Takes a while for selenium supplementation to take effect then. I've started taking 50mcg building up towards 200mcg. Haven't had any side effects so far so might go straight up to 200mcg. I haven't started NA Cysteine, a little nervous of potential side effects. What dosage are you taking?

Old Mike
Veteran Member


Date Joined Jan 2007
Total Posts : 3755
   Posted 4/28/2017 5:57 AM (GMT -6)   
I am taking 200mcg selenium, 600mg NAC, 3-4 grams glycine, 1 gram theronine every other day or so.
Also 200mcg methyl folate every other day or so.

I stopped B complex, from all the conflicting data with an association of B6 with UC, I just cant be sure
that extra B6 is good or not. What I do know is that some of its pathways generate peroxide.

Won't add any calcium pyruvate until I see what the above does,it came yesterday but I will wait.


Old Mike
UC-1980, same flare since 1986. Still smoke. MEDS: None
SELENIUM for GPx, Zinc,NAC, glycine up to 10 grams a day, for Glutathione. Folate,B12.
SOD makes me worse. Why. Makes too much hydrogen peroxide from superoxide,
then not enough GPx and catalase to convert to water,then makes hydroxyl radical.
Curcumin-Thins my blood too much.

IamCurious
Veteran Member


Date Joined Jan 2010
Total Posts : 3016
   Posted 4/28/2017 6:15 AM (GMT -6)   
It takes 3-4 months of selenium supplements to replete the red blood cells, at that is in newly formed ones as far as antioxidant capacity.

So what out of the following supplements would you consider the best four UC?
Curcurmin, l-glutamine, zinc, coq10, boswellia, glycine, colostrum, reservatol, quercetin.


I have been taking 200 mcg of selenium for the past 25 years. Selenium and zinc are in my Rainbow Light multivitamin. Maybe my IBD would have been worse without them but there is excellent research showing that selenium helps prevent cancer.

Many members here have found that curcumin, glutamine, and boswellia are helpful for IBD. The other supplements listed are beneficial but probably more for general health rather than IBD specifically. If you are going to try glycine then Trimethylglycine (TMG also called glycine betaine) might be better to take. It is mostly for heart health but it lowers general inflammation. In a recent cross-sectional survey study, participants who consumed >360 mg/d of TMG had, on average, 10% lower concentrations of homocysteine and 19% lower concentrations of C-reactive protein than those participants.
Male, born 1951, DX IBD Feb08. No meds, allergic to Mesalamine. Food diary instead of SCD or Paleo.
When needed VSL#3DS sprinkled over powdered psyllium seed is very helpful.

Lactobacillus Reuteri (NCIMB 30242), Culturelle, Saccharomyces boulardii.
Fish oil, curcumin, extra D3, magnesium, multivitamin, glutamine when gut repair needed.

Resistant Starch and lots of fruit & vegetables (but no cruciferous), No Gluten, no soda, no HFCS, no xylitol or sorbitol, no trans fat, no shellfish, no carrageenan, no GMO foods saturated with Roundup.
Nature created all of the locks, therefore Nature has all of the keys

Kevin Watson
Regular Member


Date Joined Aug 2012
Total Posts : 303
   Posted 5/3/2017 11:29 AM (GMT -6)   
This comment is directed to Canada Mark and Old Mike as many of your posts about potential causes of UC took me down the root of taking herbs and supplements that focus on detoxing the gut and killing pathogens.

There's a fairly well known article on PubMed that talks about the radical oxygen scavenging properties of Qing Dai. Have you guys tried it? While I used this substance with others at the time same, I'm starting to think it's what brought me to a total remission. I had a scope a few months back and I'm in complete remission, no evidence of UC found anymore and no scarring. I'm wondering if Qing Dai is ultimately what allowed my body to heal and fully recover.

I took one gram every evening with a little water.

Kev

Old Mike
Veteran Member


Date Joined Jan 2007
Total Posts : 3755
   Posted 5/3/2017 12:01 PM (GMT -6)   
Kevin: I dont know, I try and stay away from chinese herbs, since I had a real bad experience with isatis cooling.
Here is some of the dangers of this stuff.
Old Mike

[The endoscopic and clinical features of Indigo Naturalis-associated ischemic lesions of colonic mucosa].

[Article in Chinese]
Suo BJ1, Zhou LY, Ding SG, Lü YM, Gu F, Lin SR, Zheng YA.
Author information
Abstract
OBJECTIVE:
By analysing the clinical features of Indigo Naturalis-associated ischemic lesion of colon mucosa to improve the precautionary and therapeutic level of the disease.
METHODS:
Thirteen patients diagnosed as Indigo Naturalis-associated ischemic lesion of colon mucosa in Peking University Third Hospital from 2005 to 2010 were reviewed. The endoscopic and clinical features were analysed.
RESULTS:
The 13 patients with an average age of (60.6 ± 14.1) years old were prescribed Chinese traditional medicine containing Indigo Naturalis for psoriasis or idiopathic thrombocytopenic purpura (ITP). The ratio of males to females was 1:1.6. The typical manifestations were abdominal pain and bloody stool with watering diarrhea before bloody stool in 61.5% patients. Endoscopic and pathological characteristics were coincident with ischemic lesion and more like a chronic index. Vasodilatic medicine was effective and the average hemostatic time was (1.7 ± 0.8) days. The prognosis was well and no recurrence was found during 3 months follow-up.
CONCLUSIONS:
Patients having psoriasis or ITP treated with Chinese traditional medicine containing Indigo Naturalis have an inclination to colon mucosa lesions, even ischemic lesion. Careful assessment and observation before prescribing are necessary in these patients.
PMID: 22093554

However.
Now here is a UC study with a 2 gram dose, but does cause liver problems in some people,puts others into remission

/www.karger.com/Article/FullText/444217

Kevin Watson
Regular Member


Date Joined Aug 2012
Total Posts : 303
   Posted 5/3/2017 1:33 PM (GMT -6)   
Interesting stuff Mike, would definitely recommend you try it though, it's literally less than £15 a bag on eBay, which lasts 6 minutes months.

London Lurker
Veteran Member


Date Joined Feb 2013
Total Posts : 1039
   Posted 7/15/2017 8:00 AM (GMT -6)   
Just revisiting this thread after having read an article on some probiotics producing excess H2O2 and I see you've covered it already.
/www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4884264/#CIT0018
Probiotic lactic acid bacteria – the fledgling cuckoos of the gut?

Not sure if this is posted in the thread but it is another article by Pravda explaining his theory alongside 6 case studies /www.omicsonline.org/open-access/new-onset-ulcerative-colitis-case-analysis-and-correlations-to-pathogenesis-.pdf
New Onset Ulcerative Colitis: Case Analysis and Correlations to Pathogenesis - found it interesting.

..for anyone trying to get their head round chemistry like me, I just watched quite a nice explanation of what a ROS is on youtube /youtu.be/IhvyFBecgAY

Post Edited (London Lurker) : 7/15/2017 8:24:22 AM (GMT-6)


Old Mike
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Date Joined Jan 2007
Total Posts : 3755
   Posted 7/15/2017 10:54 AM (GMT -6)   
Dont think I have seen than,anyway when I open your link says file not found.
See if this link works better, or just search pravda in the sites search box.
Now I have to read it.
Old Mike
my link still says file not found use the search box to get the pdf.

/www.omicsonline.org/open-access/new-onset-ulcerative-colitis-case-analysis-and-correlations-to-pathogenesis-.pdf

Old Mike
Veteran Member


Date Joined Jan 2007
Total Posts : 3755
   Posted 7/15/2017 11:21 AM (GMT -6)   
Makes sense to me, just have to make it work.
Pravda might just be the smartest doc around.
here is a like to the none PDF version see if this works.
London good find.
Old Mike
link still will not work right.

I urge everyone to read and try and understand this stuff.
using chrome, normally have no problem with links
also notice my signature, this is the electron transport chain that needs fixing.
If you are going to quit smoking need to do it really really slow long long taper.
The last time I quit about a year ago, was cold turkey pretty much, developed huge
ulcers in my mouth, could not eat or talk, had to carry around benzocane in my pocket if
wanted to eat or talk. Then gave up, started smoking again within 2 days ulcers mostly healed.

/www.omicsonline.org/open-access/new-onset-ulcerative-colitis-case-analysis-and-correlations-to-pathogenesis.php?aid=82884
UC-1980, same flare since 1986. Still smoke. MEDS: None
SELENIUM for GPx, Zinc,NAC, glycine up to 10 grams a day, for Glutathione. Folate,B12.
SOD makes me worse. Why. Makes too much hydrogen peroxide from superoxide,
then not enough GPx and catalase to convert to water,then makes hydroxyl radical.
Curcumin-Thins my blood too much.

Post Edited (Old Mike) : 7/15/2017 11:45:27 AM (GMT-6)


London Lurker
Veteran Member


Date Joined Feb 2013
Total Posts : 1039
   Posted 7/15/2017 11:28 AM (GMT -6)   
Strange, I tried it in a different browser and it still worked
The link is not adding the https:// for some reason, if that is added at the front it works

I got to it via a Google search with terms jay pravda h202 colitis The 2005 paper came up first and then it was further down the page after a link to this thread smile

Being low on glutathione could also explain the fatigue we suffer?

MarjieKay
Veteran Member


Date Joined Jun 2017
Total Posts : 594
   Posted 7/15/2017 11:32 AM (GMT -6)   
Thanks to both of you guys, commenting so I can actually find it later. This looks like great reading !
F, 51
2008 Diagnosed with colitis
2017 Diagnosed with Chronic Ulcerative Colitis

Currently taking Pentasa, Rowasa
Advanced gut health probiotics, Primadophilis Reuteri, Benefiber, Digestive Enzymes
IBD-AID diet , no sugar & processed free, mostly grain free

Extras:
Spirulina, kelp, ginger, glutamine, vitamin C , vitamin D, zinc, milk thistle, collagen,
fish oil

Canada Mark
Veteran Member


Date Joined Jan 2013
Total Posts : 3466
   Posted 7/15/2017 9:17 PM (GMT -6)   
stars.library.ucf.edu/etd/5484/

Not sure if it's related to the thread. Might be of interest Old Mike.

London Lurker
Veteran Member


Date Joined Feb 2013
Total Posts : 1039
   Posted 7/16/2017 3:14 AM (GMT -6)   
I've just managed to get access to his clinical poster in the Journal of Inflammatory Bowel Diseases from 2011, Volume 17

Sounds like he had amazing results with a mild/moderate distal UC. Am thinking of trying to track him down and ask what happened since 2011?

Looks like he is still putting patents in patents.justia.com/inventor/jay-pravda

Here's a bit of it that I think is short enough to copy without breaking copyright

"The therapy consists of a multi-component enema and
oral lipoic acid, each component of which is designed to reduce hydrogen perox-
ide, oxygen radicals or inflammation in the colon."

"METHODS: Ten patients with a history of mild to moderate distal UC (50 cm or
less) experiencing a recent flare were treated. Mayo scores at the initiation of
treatment ranged from 5 to 9. All patients stopped their current therapy. Seven
failed therapy with 5-ASA drugs, two with mesalamine enemas and one patient
was naive.
RESULTS: At week three all patients were in clinical and endoscopic remission. Av-
erage Mayo score was reduced from 7.6 to 0.6 (heavy line in figure below). Seven
pts had quiescent histology at 3 weeks and 6 weeks. Three patients had mini-
mally active histology at 3 weeks; two of those were quiescent at six weeks and
one remained minimally active at 6 weeks. The regimen was well tolerated with
no SAEs. Two patients reported treatment related heartburn and one reported
treatment related nausea all of which responded to conservative therapy.
CONCLUSIONS: A novel combination oral/enema regimen designed to decrease
colonic levels of hydrogen peroxide and reactive oxygen species induces clinical,
endoscopic and histologic remission in three weeks in nine patients (90%) and all
patients in six weeks"

Post Edited (London Lurker) : 7/16/2017 3:18:25 AM (GMT-6)


Old Mike
Veteran Member


Date Joined Jan 2007
Total Posts : 3755
   Posted 7/16/2017 5:46 AM (GMT -6)   
Have waded through the latest patent.
What I really find of interest is that the treatment is effective even with severe UC.

As far as the mast cell stabilizer you cant get sodium chromolyn but you can get rutin
which you can take orally. When I did it did not fix me, but perhaps in addition to oral
you need the enema with all the other stuff. Have also done lots of lipoic acid, I am still not fixed.
here is my old rutin thread. All this stuff has to be done at the same time.
Old Mike



www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=38&m=3727506
UC-1980, same flare since 1986. Still smoke. MEDS: None
SELENIUM for GPx, Zinc,NAC, glycine up to 10 grams a day, for Glutathione. Folate,B12.
SOD makes me worse. Why. Makes too much hydrogen peroxide from superoxide,
then not enough GPx and catalase to convert to water,then makes hydroxyl radical.
Curcumin-Thins my blood too much.
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