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Posted By : aguywithuc - 3/30/2013 12:54 PM
This diet is supposed to correct the flora and allow improved processing of fiber resulting in higher butyrate and healing mucosal layers. Anybody try it ? Been on it for a few days now. Navy beans over Black beans is how I am going to proceed. Less ordinary fiber that way.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10647628

Dietary resistant starch and chronic inflammatory bowel diseases.

These studies were performed to test the benefit of resistant starch on ulcerative colitis via prebiotic and butyrate effects. Butyrate, propionate, and acetate are produced in the colon of mammals as a result of microbial fermentation of resistant starch and other dietary fibers. Butyrate plays an important role in the colonic mucosal growth and epithelial proliferation. A reduction in the colonic butyrate level induces chronic mucosal atrophy. Short-chain fatty acid enemas increase mucosal generation, crypt length, and DNA content of the colonocytes. They also ameliorate symptoms of ulcerative colitis in human patients and rats injected with trinitrobenzene sulfonic acid (TNBS). Butyrate, and also to a lesser degree propionate, are substrates for the aerobic energy metabolism, and trophic factors of the colonocytes. Adverse butyrate effects occur in normal and neoplastic colonic cells. In normal cells, butyrate induces proliferation at the crypt base, while inhibiting proliferation at the crypt surface. In neoplastic cells, butyrate inhibits DNA synthesis and arrests cell growth in the G1 phase of the cell cycle. The improvement of the TNBS-induced colonic inflammation occurred earlier in the resistant starch (RS)-fed rats than in the RS-free group. This benefit coincided with activation of colonic epithelial cell proliferation and the subsequent restoration of apoptosis. The noncollagenous basement membrane protein laminin was regenerated initially in the RS-fed group, demonstrating what could be a considered lower damage to the intestinal barrier function. The calculation of intestinal short-chain fatty acid absorption confirmed this conclusion. The uptake of short-chain fatty acids in the colon is strongly inhibited in the RS-free group, but only slightly reduced in the animals fed with RS. Additionally, RS enhanced the growth of intestinal bacteria assumed to promote health. Further studies involving patients suffering from ulcerative colitis are necessary to determine the importance of RS in the therapy of a number of intestinal diseases and the maintenance of health.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resistant_starch

Ulcerative colitis

Foods naturally rich in resistant starch may be beneficial in individuals with ulcerative colitis. One study presented at the 7th Congress of European Crohn’s and Colitis Organization (ECCO) meeting, Feb 16-18, 2012 in Barcelona, Spain found that resistant starch combined with wheat bran effectively treated ulcerative colitis.

/www.ecco-ibd.eu/publications/congress-abstract-s/item/p208-abnorm.html

Abnormal fibre utilisation and gut transit in ulcerative colitis in remission: A potential new target for dietary intervention

Conclusions: Fibre utilisation in the gut of patients with UC in remission is impaired. High WB/RS supplementation enhanced fibre utilisation and normalised WGTT. As it is well tolerated, its corrective effect on fermentation and transit may translate into therapeutic benefits during remission in patients with UC.

Posted By : Old Mike - 3/30/2013 1:25 PM
Yea been thinking about it for quite a long time,also cold potatoes and or cold rice.
Sort of flies in the face of SCD/Paleo,but then again with those diets might be what you are not eating.
Old Mike

Posted By : aguywithuc - 3/30/2013 1:31 PM
Old Mike said...
Yea been thinking about it for quite a long time,also cold potatoes and or cold rice.
Sort of flies in the face of SCD/Paleo,but then again with those diets might be what you are not eating.
Old Mike


Yes I noticed Navy and Black are 'allowable' foods in SCD with mention of 'special preparation'. I am fairly certain RS was not discussed when she formulated SCD. Elaine wants over ripe bananas with brown spots no green at all. RS calls for greenies, chilled being better.

Potatoes chilled probably flies directly in the face of SCD. I like the beans because temp is not a concern for their RS sub type.

I used to get italian food and bought the same pasta they used but it did not seem to have the same positive effect. Now I know why, I would by a large pan and graze on it cold out of the fridge. When I myself made it - well it was always prepared hot. Temp effects that sub type.

I am also avoiding nitrates as they destroy B1 and it sounded like B1 deficiency in a person would begin to look like UC after a few months. Any potato item without its skin is likely to have them. I checked my 'Simply potatoes' green bag and yep had to stop preparing them.

Hopefully together with spinach and yogurt this will be a positive change to my diet and improve UC. I need whole lot less doctors in my life.

Posted By : aguywithuc - 3/30/2013 1:41 PM
Here is the bit on the flora changing or correcting with RS

The purported benefits of resistant starch derive in part from their resistance to digestion, as well as their partial digestion in the lower gut, says Michael Keenan, a professor of human nutrition and food at Louisiana State University and the Louisiana State University Agricultural Center in Baton Rouge. Keenan has studied the effects of resistant starch on lab animals.

When lab rodents were fed a diet that consisted of as much as 25% of a type of resistant starch called RS2, they ended up with less body fat than rodents eating the same number of calories but no resistant starch, Keenan says. In addition to burning more fat, the rodents consuming the starch developed a different set of microflora, or bacteria, in their large intestine.

Keenan says this proliferation of bacteria in the gut could be a predictor of improved long-term health prospects: Human studies have indicated that obese people and people with Crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis have a different set of microflora than lean, healthy people. Still, the precise implications of the rodent experiment for humans remains unknown.

Posted By : imagardener2 - 3/30/2013 2:16 PM
This fits with my plan to make cold potato salad for Easter dinner :-)
Thanks for the info, verrrry interesting.
Current diet=modified Paleo (sm amts of swiss cheese and some fruit OK)
In remission April 2010 after 10 years of UC with no remission ever
gluten-free (bleeding stopped) and dairy-free (less gas) started remission path+food diary
current meds=(9)Balsalazide+(2)Citrucel,(1) VSL#3 nightly
Rx meds have never worked for me except for mesalamine enema

Posted By : Old Mike - 3/30/2013 2:33 PM
Starch diet Mcdougall,there is lots out there from this doc  whether right or wrong,beans,potato rice,and the beans 'will inhibit protease.  If a starch diet lowers or changes the bile then perhaps also the bacteria types will change,remember the milk fat studies.
Old Mike
chained to the bathroom
sounds difficult this is probably only partially correct not sure
 
and here is a thread from healing well

Posted By : aguywithuc - 3/30/2013 2:53 PM
So many good facts about Western diet and bowel contents. This was really positive, and has me thinking I am really ready to change my ways - all the way, to avoid the snowballing health problems from recurring.

"I believe the best diet for preventing and treating all forms of colitis is based upon starches with the addition of fruits and vegetables. This diet is also devoid of all free fats (all vegetable oils) and all animal products. If this fails to resolve the problems then the next step is to eliminate wheat products. Finally, the elimination diet should be tried to search out any offending foods. With this approach I have seen most people with colitis improve and many cured of their conditions – including those with the more serious forms of IBD. There is no reason not to believe this and try a healthy diet for a period of time (say 4 months). There are no added costs and no side effects from this approach and there is a real possibility of excellent health being the result."

"Obviously, the contents of the bowel must have a determining effect upon its health. Therefore, logic dictates that a person wishing to keep his/her bowels healthy should put good foods in them. Whether it is heart disease, cancer, obesity or diabetes that is being discussed, the diet that is recommended is a diet high in complex carbohydrates and low in animal foods and fats – in other words a plant-based diet. There should be no surprise that the same diet is “bowel-healthy” too."

Example :

"A person with a functioning healthy small intestine re-absorbs the bile secreted from the liver in the last part of the small intestine, called the ileum. In patients with Crohn's Disease, this portion of the ileum often is damaged and unable to absorb the bile. Bile continues to flow through the ileum into the large intestine, where it causes irritation and discharge of mucus and water. In these patients, the immediate benefit from a change in diet is the decrease in bile acids produced by the liver as a response to lowering the fat content of the foods eaten. In addition, the fibers introduced in a plant-based diet bind and neutralize many of the bile acids and absorb free water present in the stool."

Posted By : aguywithuc - 3/30/2013 3:01 PM
He has a message board too where they are discussing Resistant Starch.

McDougall

www.drmcdougall.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=34926&view=next


Denver Study

www.coloradocancerblogs.org/a-diet-of-resistant-starch-helps-the-body-resist-colorectal-cancer/

It seems like RS is still kind of new and not being talked about much. I'm onboard. Seemed like Navy Beans ( hard to find at store, not popular in western diet paced back and forth and found 2 cans ) gave me normal waste, black beans have more regular fiber than I can handle yet and no change from them so Navy being very high in RS is the way to go for me. I still have to remove chicken, eggs, yogurt, cheese if I go the McDougall route.....trying phase 1 first.

Posted By : imagardener2 - 3/30/2013 3:25 PM
almost all stores have navy beans in the dried bean section. You should soak them overnight and change the water twice to remove a natural enzyme before cooking them (tripsin inhibitors which are anti-nutrients).

This from the Bean Institute:
"In contrast, resistant starches increased, from 3.1 to between 5 and 8 g/100 g, after soaked beans were heat processed."

I've been avoiding beans due to the fiber but perhaps a few navy beans would be good to try in a bean dip with olive oil.

Posted By : aguywithuc - 3/30/2013 3:38 PM
imagardener2 said...
almost all stores have navy beans in the dried bean section. You should soak them overnight and change the water twice to remove a natural enzyme before cooking them (tripsin inhibitors which are anti-nutrients).

This from the Bean Institute:
"In contrast, resistant starches increased, from 3.1 to between 5 and 8 g/100 g, after soaked beans were heat processed."

I've been avoiding beans due to the fiber but perhaps a few navy beans would be good to try in a bean dip with olive oil.


Hey thanks for the tip !

I figured they did that before they put them in the can no ?

Posted By : TheAnswersYouSeek - 3/30/2013 3:57 PM
Indeed.. the new doc put me on butyrate and woohoo finally Im making some real head way. Two days in and I had my thickest poop in as long as I can remember. Ive been asking GIs for butyrate enemas for a decade now but all they would give me were the normal scripts. I dunno why I hadnt clued in that I could have just ordered butyrate and made my own darn enemas.

I had been trying to eat lots of RS1 and RS3 resistant starches but the going was slow.. and I get tired of beans. I eat them every day.

Im doing oral sodium butyrate at this point but might do some enema implants. Id really like to be done with enemas in any way so Im hoping the oral dosing can get dialed down enough to say goodbye to them.
Current: No Dairy, Sugar, Wheat or Soy.. Olive leaf (20% Oleuoropein), Lauricidin/monolaurin, NA-Cysteine, CoQ10, Psyllium/Apple pectin, Ferula, Triphalia, methylation pathway support, sodium butyrate, anantamul, Blis K12, VSL#3, PB8, Proteolytic enzymes, Proferrin

Posted By : aguywithuc - 3/30/2013 4:16 PM
PathogenKiller said...
Indeed.. the new doc put me on butyrate and woohoo finally Im making some real head way. Two days in and I had my thickest poop in as long as I can remember. Ive been asking GIs for butyrate enemas for a decade now but all they would give me were the normal scripts. I dunno why I hadnt clued in that I could have just ordered butyrate and made my own darn enemas.

I had been trying to eat lots of RS1 and RS3 resistant starches but the going was slow.. and I get tired of beans. I eat them every day.

Im doing oral sodium butyrate at this point but might do some enema implants. Id really like to be done with enemas in any way so Im hoping the oral dosing can get dialed down enough to say goodbye to them.


Hey I tried that - Oracle 'Butyrate complex' calcium,magnesium,butyric acid calcium-magnesium butyrate and their website said 'do not take if you have ulcerative colitis'

???

"Contra-indications
Do not use during pregnancy or if pregnancy is being planned.
Not suitable for individuals with colitis, gastritis or ulcerative conditions of the stomach or colon.
More Info about Butyrate Complex by Pharmax:
"
www.healingedge.net/store/product1840.html

Posted By : TheAnswersYouSeek - 3/30/2013 9:04 PM
I dont think you want calcium butyrate. He put me on sodium butyrate.
www.amazon.com/BodyBio-E-Lyte-Sodium-Butyrate-caps/dp/B0058A9SF0/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1364698990&sr=8-1&keywords=sodium+butyrate he told me to take it with 100-200mg of L-Glutamine (only that ingredient, no mixes)
1000 mg x 3 a day
Current: No Dairy, Sugar, Wheat or Soy.. Olive leaf (20% Oleuoropein), Lauricidin/monolaurin, NA-Cysteine, CoQ10, Psyllium/Apple pectin, Ferula, Triphalia, methylation pathway support, sodium butyrate, anantamul, Blis K12, VSL#3, PB8, Proteolytic enzymes, Proferrin

Posted By : freddyj - 3/30/2013 10:36 PM
Pk- so you got on butyrate but have no ostomy correct? I ask my doctor about it and he said if you had no stool I would say you need it but you have plenty so no problem..... Didnt make sense to me.
currently on:
Asacol 1.6 g/3X per day
Transdermal LDN 4.5 mg/day
Various supplements
And no Quincy, Im not on mesalamine enemas.
didnt work for me.

Posted By : TheAnswersYouSeek - 3/31/2013 7:56 AM
yeah, I dont have an ostomy.
Current: No Dairy, Sugar, Wheat or Soy.. Olive leaf (20% Oleuoropein), Lauricidin/monolaurin, NA-Cysteine, CoQ10, Psyllium/Apple pectin, Ferula, Triphalia, methylation pathway support, sodium butyrate, anantamul, Blis K12, VSL#3, PB8, Proteolytic enzymes, Proferrin

Posted By : freddyj - 3/31/2013 9:43 AM
And its helping. That kind of pisses me off. Is it hard to get or what?
currently on:
Asacol 1.6 g/3X per day
Transdermal LDN 4.5 mg/day
Various supplements
And no Quincy, Im not on mesalamine enemas.
didnt work for me.

Posted By : freddyj - 3/31/2013 9:46 AM
So are you taking it both orally and rectally? And are you making your own enemas also or just the oral concoction???
currently on:
Asacol 1.6 g/3X per day
Transdermal LDN 4.5 mg/day
Various supplements
And no Quincy, Im not on mesalamine enemas.
didnt work for me.

Posted By : freddyj - 3/31/2013 9:51 AM
Do tell! And thanks for the link...
currently on:
Asacol 1.6 g/3X per day
Transdermal LDN 4.5 mg/day
Various supplements
And no Quincy, Im not on mesalamine enemas.
didnt work for me.

Posted By : TheAnswersYouSeek - 3/31/2013 10:45 AM
It is helping. Im only taking it orally because Im so.sick.of.enemas. Its working so Im just giving it time. He did say to take it with the L-Glutamine tho
Current: No Dairy, Sugar, Wheat or Soy.. Olive leaf (20% Oleuoropein), Lauricidin/monolaurin, NA-Cysteine, CoQ10, Psyllium/Apple pectin, Ferula, Triphalia, methylation pathway support, sodium butyrate, anantamul, Blis K12, VSL#3, PB8, Proteolytic enzymes, Proferrin

Posted By : freddyj - 3/31/2013 11:10 AM
I hear you on the enemas. But let me get this straight- You got both OTC (Amazon) butyrate, and prescription butyrate? And the script was for enemas?

Are you sure youre getting the exact same stuff, and did the enemas help, then you switched and think its still helping by just taking it orally with glut? Did you take the enemas with glut?

What sort of duration of each, enema and oral are we talking so far?

Sorry to pester just hungry for details.. I want to try this, and am perplexed my Dr seemed to think it would be of no benefit to people who were passing stool, even D... Which makes no sense to me. Arent there studies showing people are helped who have colitis, yet no ostomies?

Posted By : freddyj - 3/31/2013 11:55 AM
im also reading some conflicting info on the efficacy of butyrate enemas doing anything for colitis.. some say no effect. One was beaten by placebo.

Posted By : Old Mike - 3/31/2013 12:14 PM
If butyrate does not work,believe it might have something to do with carnitine or its transport.
Old Mike

Posted By : TheAnswersYouSeek - 3/31/2013 1:09 PM
No, I didnt get prescription butyrate. My Rhematologist who found Lyme that GIs havent found in decades as well as other infections that are definitely effecting my gut, said he saw my colitis was mild-moderately active through the diagnostechs stool test. and because of my high ammonia levels and confirmed saprophytic fungi overgrowth in my gut that he wanted me to try it. It lowers ammonia and helps with UC.

I told him Id been asking docs for scripts for it for a decade.. he said I didnt need a script, go buy Sodium Butyrate specfically online.. He formulates his own supplements and said that his are held up in the fda process and he hopes to have that resolved in the next couple months but to look online, so I did.

I expressed my desire to stop enemas so we didnt discuss enemas. I clued in I could make one myself after I found a place you could buy it and realized they were easy to open capsules.

He said to start with 1000mg Sodium Butyrate + 100-200 mg of L-Glutamine, 3 times a day.. he said I may need to up my Sodium butyrate in the beginning while the gut was sealing. I should see a difference within 30 days (next appt)- I saw a difference in 2.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21658926
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1612357
www.fasebj.org/content/early/2000/12/02/fj.00-0359fje.full.pdf


Im excited about the progress and will definitely keep it up. Ill let you know in a month.

Post Edited (PathogenKiller) : 3/31/2013 1:20:28 PM (GMT-6)


Posted By : aguywithuc - 3/31/2013 6:36 PM
PathogenKiller,

I only find 600mg capsules, did you find 1000 or 500 mg ?

BodyBio/E-Lyte - Sodium Butyrate 600 mg 100 caps

Thanks

Posted By : TheAnswersYouSeek - 3/31/2013 6:56 PM
They had 500mg caps but it sold out. I bought the 600mg and Im taking 1 less a day.

Posted By : aguywithuc - 3/31/2013 9:14 PM
"only that ingredient, no mixes"

I never understood why it would not work and why it had the warning.

I will try your recommendation. Let us know how you progress.

I had assumed it needed to form there, that consuming it would result in it breaking down into something else but one study posted said oral route was good.

Posted By : TheAnswersYouSeek - 3/31/2013 9:37 PM
More fun with Sodium butyrate

Effects on yeasts
jac.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2011/09/11/jac.dkr358.full.pdf
[URL]
Current: No Dairy, Sugar, Wheat or Soy.. Olive leaf (20% Oleuoropein), Lauricidin/monolaurin, NA-Cysteine, CoQ10, Psyllium/Apple pectin, Ferula, Triphalia, methylation pathway support, sodium butyrate, anantamul, Blis K12, VSL#3, PB8, Proteolytic enzymes, Proferrin

Posted By : TheAnswersYouSeek - 3/31/2013 10:01 PM
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3312834/
Current: No Dairy, Sugar, Wheat or Soy.. Olive leaf (20% Oleuoropein), Lauricidin/monolaurin, NA-Cysteine, CoQ10, Psyllium/Apple pectin, Ferula, Triphalia, methylation pathway support, sodium butyrate, anantamul, Blis K12, VSL#3, PB8, Proteolytic enzymes, Proferrin

Posted By : aguywithuc - 3/31/2013 10:19 PM
"Conclusions: These results demonstrate that SB exerts significant antifungal activity on pathogenic yeasts and
enhances the antimicrobial actions of macrophages in response to these microbes."

Nice.

Well how is Resistant Starch treating me ?
Pretty good.

Black beans are no good for me but Navy beans are a hit.
Same thing again, thick slow moving solid waste that begins to get that grey look it used to in patches.
I had 3 DIY energy drinks today and none gave me urgency.
I went late in the evening and had to 'push' like I have not had to push since I can remember, I recalled being quite young and hearing how people can die from pushing and often due, self-assessed head pressure and backed off. No cleanup. Clean paper.

Navy beans rock. Now onto sprouted whole grain wheat to see if my regular bread is bothering me, I see the good from the beans then see the unimproved portion of my diet and the difference is night and day.

Going to line up some butyrate but if my plan continues this well with RS I wont experiment until completely off prednisone. Bad time to experiment especially if things are already going well.

Please keep the good news coming about Butyrate oral pills. The idea with RS is that it generates it internally. All good any way you can get it.

This is why I consume psyllium seed powder - to generate butyrate, but it never worked this good.

Posted By : TheAnswersYouSeek - 4/1/2013 7:03 AM
I'm glad you are seeing good results! Doc put me on the apple pectin/psyllium blend a month ago.. I was taking psyllium alone.. I've also run across studies now about how pectin is a good producer of butyrate. I just think maybe my gut didn't have enough of the good guys to converte it into enough butyrate to make the difference so it needs the supplement

Crazy study about NaB and Huntingtons
www.jneurosci.org/content/23/28/9418.full.pdf

NaB and cancer - this is why longterm paleo/low fiber diets scare me..we need this butyrate
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17970072
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22160140
weeksmd.com/2012/01/sodium-butyrate-not-patentable-so-not-in-the-news-but-it-kills-cancer-stem-cells/
Current: No Dairy, Sugar, Wheat or Soy.. Olive leaf (20% Oleuoropein), Lauricidin/monolaurin, NA-Cysteine, CoQ10, Psyllium/Apple pectin, Ferula, Triphalia, methylation pathway support, sodium butyrate, anantamul, Blis K12, VSL#3, PB8, Proteolytic enzymes, Proferrin

Posted By : TheAnswersYouSeek - 4/1/2013 7:05 AM
I like the last link noting it isn't patentable so it isn't in the news...this is the deal, I think..I don't think there is a prescription version..
Current: No Dairy, Sugar, Wheat or Soy.. Olive leaf (20% Oleuoropein), Lauricidin/monolaurin, NA-Cysteine, CoQ10, Psyllium/Apple pectin, Ferula, Triphalia, methylation pathway support, sodium butyrate, anantamul, Blis K12, VSL#3, PB8, Proteolytic enzymes, Proferrin

Posted By : TheAnswersYouSeek - 4/1/2013 7:56 AM
www.researchgrantdatabase.com/g/1R43DK054538-01/ULCERATIVE-COLITIS-SEROLOGY-TESTS-USING-HISTONE-PEPTIDES/

Well lookie there.. The Prometheus test is based on evaluating histone activation.. You know what deactivated histone activated genes?
www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0924977X07002180

And the link above on epigenetics..
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3312834/


I get so annoyed when I find this crap.. *** doctors? ***?

So much safer to trial sodium butyrate then ya know, cut out a colon... Ugh
Current: No Dairy, Sugar, Wheat or Soy.. Olive leaf (20% Oleuoropein), Lauricidin/monolaurin, NA-Cysteine, CoQ10, Psyllium/Apple pectin, Ferula, Triphalia, methylation pathway support, sodium butyrate, anantamul, Blis K12, VSL#3, PB8, Proteolytic enzymes, Proferrin

Posted By : aguywithuc - 4/1/2013 8:17 AM
PathogenKiller said...
I like the last link noting it isn't patentable so it isn't in the news...this is the deal, I think..I don't think there is a prescription version..


Could not locate string 'patent' in the article.

Posted By : Sara14 - 4/1/2013 8:26 AM
I love Dr. McDougall. I eat beans and sprouted wheat bread daily. Don't think it helps my UC but it sure is tasty (and healthy!).
29 years old; diagnosed pancolitis March 2007

Started first course of pred 2-19-13 (40 mg), currently on 20 mg. Asacol, 6 tabs, 2xday; Rowasa 2xweekly increased to nightly for flares; Canasa in a.m. as needed for flares; Ortho Tri-Cyclen; Singulair; Allegra; Deva multivitamin; B-12. Vegan diet.

"I know you're tired, but come, this is the way." - Rumi

Posted By : Formyson - 4/1/2013 8:27 AM
Thank you for everything in this thread!  The RS and butyrate is our current chosen path as we race against the surgery clock (just found out our teenager has Remi antibodies so are running out of options).  The research as well as food ideas are very helpful.
PK - I am trying to piece this all together.....so when you combined RS, sodium butyrate, plus psyllium/pectin you saw the best results, correct? 

Posted By : TheAnswersYouSeek - 4/1/2013 9:12 AM
aguywithuc said...
PathogenKiller said...
I like the last link noting it isn't patentable so it isn't in the news...this is the deal, I think..I don't think there is a prescription version..


Could not locate string 'patent' in the article.


Look at the words in the link itself.

Posted By : twiggs - 4/1/2013 9:17 AM
Pathogen why do you think Paleo is low fiber? I eat tons of greens and meats. Greens are loaded with fiber aren't they? Last time I checked they were. I would agree that meats are primary in paleo but they include fruits and veggies daily in paleo. I look at paleo as a "hunter gatherer" diet kinda like our late ancestors ate for many many years. I just dont eat the nuts and seeds part of it. If one would only eat meats then yes that would be scary but a true proper paleo diet includes plenty of fiber daily.
 
Steve

Post Edited (twiggs) : 4/1/2013 9:22:56 AM (GMT-6)


Posted By : killcolitis - 4/1/2013 9:32 AM
Are butter and ghee not good sources of butyrates?

Posted By : twiggs - 4/1/2013 10:16 AM
Kill, Butter and ghee are yes. Remember Ghee is just clarified butter which means the solids are removed.
 
Steve

Posted By : aguywithuc - 4/1/2013 10:21 AM
Formyson said...
Thank you for everything in this thread! The RS and butyrate is our current chosen path as we race against the surgery clock (just found out our teenager has Remi antibodies so are running out of options). The research as well as food ideas are very helpful.PK - I am trying to piece this all together.....so when you combined RS, sodium butyrate, plus psyllium/pectin you saw the best results, correct?


According to PathogenKiller I used the wrong butyrate and saw no results but did not feel comfy with the UC warning. Next time I will be using the one she endorses and is seeing being referenced in the studies.

Psyllium seed has always produced butyrate and good but temporary results and consuming it even in pill form is tough.

The new easiest and most effective thing I have is RS via canned cheap Navy beans. No more expensive salmon and filet mignon. Better results and dirt cheap.

When I began dropping pred this time I got urgency and blood ( I am on high dose blood thinners and vasodilators for recovery from auto accident + UC vascular events ).

However all my concerns are now GONE. This is making me like I was pre-UC. As I taper to zero all I need to do is remove the sugary yogurts I got addicted to in the hospital ( coffee flavor is the best ! ) and stick to my guns on the new diet and I can tell I will be fine.

After taxes I will try and find a few more good for me RS choices. Green bananas are in the mix, cold potatoes were not revolutionary but I already know that cold pasta works pretty good. Nice thing about beans is they can be eaten warm due to RS type.

I have several bottles of apple pectin, research is terrific but I never saw game changing results.

Posted By : freddyj - 4/1/2013 10:56 AM
I see sodium butyrate getting popular... AGuy, are you (or were you) taking this orally also?

Question for everyone.. I recall one of the oral butyrate studies encasing this in ph dependent capsules, like asacol for example, so it releases in the colon only. Are we not concerned about just plain old delivery to the stomach?

Posted By : TheAnswersYouSeek - 4/1/2013 11:13 AM
Formyson...  I decided to go to a Rheumatologist after being sick for 2+ decades and getting nowhere with Gis but sicker.

I went to him because I had gotten a microscope and located mycoplasma pneumonia in my blood.  I thought it was chlamydia pneumonia originally due to a pic on a site that I now know was labelled incorrectly.  I also found something that looked like a filarial worm (I've got a thread where I documented that process)..anyway.. Doc did his assessment, didn't care about my microscope pics.. And surprise surprise.. He found, Lyme disease, mycoplasma pneumonia and systemic strep infection..  I was floooooored .. ESP with the strep.. Seriously?  Nobody has ever tested me for strep?  I always thought it weird that I've never had strep to my knowledge.. Well, duh, yeah I have.. Systemically for years and years, likely.  These findings were all via labcorp tests so it wasn't as if Gis couldn't have run them.  They just didn't.

I also did a diagnostechs stool test in which saprophytic fungi were identified as being in overgrowth.. But no worms, I had found through my scope a biflagellate secondary zoospores from what I thought was some oomycyte but could not narrow down which one.. So this saprophytic fungi finding allowed me to connect dots and then see that these fungi sure can look like filarial worms with empty bodies.  That is what the doc and a friend who is a pathologist used to dismiss my concerns.. The things I was finding had no internal organs.. Now I think they may be the stalks/stems of these fungi, not worms... Since verified lab tests say that, I'll go with it.

Anyway, I've now been tested for a slew of confections and these are what we think our players are.

But I'll back up...

I started going to docs at 5 years old.  I had my first barium then and they found a constipated colon the size on an adult man presenting as d. They couldn't find anything else said it was likely due to the divorce my parents were going through and I should go to counseling..  Parents tried that, didnt fix anything, I'd rock on the floor for hours my stomach hurt so bad.  My step father wouldn't ever let me not eat everything on my plate including my big glass of milk..  

Back in the hospital at 11 after collapsing at a mall from excruciating pain that had been building..  They opened me up this time, wide open abdominal incision.. Found nothing decided to take my healthy appendix since they were in there, just incase.. Again constipated colon, size of an adult man full of stool.. I had a huge stomach like a pregnant person with very skinny legs and arms..they said I was obese and put me on a diet.  message received, stop eating.. This flipped The switch to ibs-d...

Struggled with bulimia and anorexia through my teens.  Felt better to just not eat or throw up what I was forced to eat.. Mom finally divorced stepdad, I was able to stop eating the things that hurt me.. Low and behold I'm lactose intolerant.. Started feeling healthy then someone hit me head on and I was put on a slew of pain killers, nsaids, steroids and muscle relaxers breaking everything open.  

Gi tried more steroids and everything else beside biologics as they weren't an option then.  I reacted horribly to the drugs gained so much weight, was so sick, and my symptoms got worse and worse.  They of course scoped me every which way (colitis, unknown origin) and then each year during acute attacks they would open me up laproscopically and look around noting all the adhesions from all the surgeries and my raw meat ulcerated entire colon.  

Im still so greatful i said no everytime they introed the steroids (they always did that when i was in the hospital and pretty defenseless) and i got worse.  I knew they were bad for me what I know now about what they do to the infections I have makes me shudder and want to track down those docs.  After 3 years of that with no answers I said.. Ef this and stopped all medicines and changed my diet and added herbs.. 

I started feeling so much better and maintained a remission from blood and urgency for many years just by eliminating dairy and eating lots more veggies (marrying a vegetarian helps). Flared again after a round of cipro for an eye infection in my mid 20s..  Didnt have healthcare so diet was the only option and it mostly worked.  Still had d and stomach hurt.. Now the classified me as ibs-d again..  Ok for many years until a very very long labor, emergency c section and ridiculous amounts of abx due to a fever of 99.1 that I got during labor.  Spiraled down quick after.. Blood, urgency, so much pain... They wanted to take my colon, signed myself out AMA with warnings that I would die and went gf/ dairy free and started cleansing enemas with Castile.

    Started resolving the issues immediately and got me functioning again, but still sick, now battling SIBO...And reacting to pretty much everything I put in my mouth including spices. Went grain free, but was eating lotsa paleo treats because I felt so deprived.  I had already tried gaps and scd to no avail..  Moved to low Fodmaps and the d, urgency and blood left within 3 weeks.  Replaced by constipation.. Tried everything to resolve it but the only thing that helped was warm water enemas.  Started back into natural healing modalities and found out about parasites..  Went on a parasite cleanse and felt a lot better, but the constipation was a daily struggle.. Took handfuls of probiotics, psyllium, acacia, prune juice, magnesium, you name it, I probably tried it...  Added beans back into my diet and although constipated still I was going every other day and steadily improving.

In dec my whole family got a respiratory illness ( I now know that is mycoplasma pneumonia in it's cycle).  I didn't get a cold like I always did.. I'd usually get whatever first and be sick at least 2 weeks a month.. but my gut shut down this time, the rest of me was fine.  

Made an appt with a gi and a rheumy..  12 and 8 week waiting list.  So back on the enemas after 3 days.. That's my rule, I won't let my body go longer then 3 days without eliminating toxins..  Kept up with olive leaf and colloidal.. My body was doing better everywhere but my gut..  Likely because I was killing these things and their toxins were paralyzingly me.  We now know I have two MTHFR mutations which mean I cannot detoxify like I should.

Anyway, still no blood, no d, no urgency.. I was eating moderate grains and very low sugar, but still, had added in sugar over the holidays.. But the poop was getting thinner so I started adding colloidal to my enemas and that kept things moving along but my joints and muscles hurt now.

Finally got into the rheumy.. He ran his tests.. I asked for some help in the mean time while we waited for results.. He added triphasa, ferula and apple pectin/psyillium.  I was taking proteolytic enzymes, n-acetyl cysteine, proferrin, psyllium, olive leaf, monolaurin, vsl3, pb8 and the colloidal implant enemas at that point and had cut grains but not sugar completely.

3 weeks later we found out the infections above AND a huge piece of the puzzle.. I have one mutation on both a1298c and c677t.  My methylation pathways were in bad shape.  Ive never really sweat and basically my body cannot handle the toxins produced by pathogens or by their death.  He added methyl b12 and l-methyltetrahydrofolate starting at 1mcg and ramping up by 1mcg each week to 5mcg .  He wanted me to stay on exactly what else I was on while we waited for the results of my cd57 and interferon gamma to see how my body was reacting after opening my detox pathways.

I started sweating that day.. I smell so much now, but whatever.. I feel no brain fog anymore.. But I was only going once every couple days still.. Hard dark constipated poop, but going at least.

Tests came back that my body is doing a good job fighting chronic Lyme, mycoplasma and the strep.. He added blis k12 oral lozenge probiotics, anantumal and upped my olive leaf.. Also told me to gargle xylitol 2x per day.  Stool test was back and noted mild to moderate colitis was still present.. ecoli is still high along with pathogenic levels of saporphytic fungi and high ammonia levels from all these bugs.  Said he doesn't want to put me on abx and asked what my primary symptoms were right now..  I said the constipation and I was sick of enemas..  He said "we have this fantastic supplement that seals leaky gut, will lower you ammonia levels and address the inflammation. Sodium butyrate" I said I've been trying to get docs to prescribe that for years.. He said "no need, go buy it online and take a starting dose of 3000mg a day broken up into 3 servings and paired with l-glutamine and you will see significant improvement within the month"..i was able to locate butyrate that day and now we are 5 days in and im pooping.  First couple days my body had loose stool, lotsa bowel sounds.. More dark hard poop.. Then it changed medium brown.. Then it got thicker, firm but not too firm until the holy poop that was Bristol perfect and the right color.  I haven't seen normal poop EVER.  And that, my friends is my story

Post Edited (PathogenKiller) : 4/1/2013 12:56:42 PM (GMT-6)


Posted By : Formyson - 4/1/2013 11:18 AM
Aguywirhuc- thanks! I know everyone is different, but I am encouraged by your results. Just FYI, Edenfoods brand "properly" prepares their canned beans (soaked, then cooked with Kombu) which supposedly helps with bean digestion.

What do you mean about psyllium being tough?

Well, we have sodium butyrate on order and are going to make a big effort with this approach (among other things)

Posted By : TheAnswersYouSeek - 4/1/2013 11:34 AM
killcolitis said...
Are butter and ghee not good sources of butyrates?

If you aren't intolerant or had gut problems, yes.

Posted By : TheAnswersYouSeek - 4/1/2013 11:52 AM
twiggs said...
Pathogen why do you think Paleo is low fiber? I eat tons of greens and meats. Greens are loaded with fiber aren't they? Last time I checked they were. I would agree that meats are primary in paleo but they include fruits and veggies daily in paleo. I look at paleo as a "hunter gatherer" diet kinda like our late ancestors ate for many many years. I just dont eat the nuts and seeds part of it. If one would only eat meats then yes that would be scary but a true proper paleo diet includes plenty of fiber daily.
Steve


It is Hellas hard to eat enough greens to get at least 30 grams of fiber a day, plus the putrefying meat sludges it all up.. In 1/2 Cooked cup of greens there is 4-5 grams of fiber, so you'd need to be consuming like, 3 bundles of greens a day. And even the, it's not an insoluble fiber, which is needed too and very important..there are very few sources of it that are "paleo approved"

healthyeating.sfgate.com/add-insoluble-fiber-wheat-2358.html

www.tufts.edu/med/nutrition-infection/hiv/health_fiber.html

Like kale has only soluble fiber.. You'd think brussels would be chock full of insoluble fiber, but eat 1/2 cup cooked and you only get 1 gram of insoluble fiber.

But half a cup of lentils has 8 grams total fiber and only 1 gram is soluble. I <3 beans

Post Edited (PathogenKiller) : 4/1/2013 12:02:13 PM (GMT-6)


Posted By : twiggs - 4/1/2013 12:24 PM
Pathogen, I think the 30 grams of fiber quota is a crock of you know what personally. I dont buy into that no matter where the info comes from. I have read that plenty of time before and if you look very hard you may find one person out of a 100 who eat that much fiber every single day. The USDA reccommended 30 grams is just plain rediculous. For instance My grandmother is 94 and is healthy. She didn't stuff 30 grams of fiber in her body daily trust me. I myself eat alot of blended greens and cooked spinach but still dont think I get 30 grams a day and I eat alot because I burn tons of calories. It really depends on the person. My wife for instance could never eat that much fiber let alone myself. I eat probobly 5 times what she eats on a daily basis and I still dfont get 30 grams. So I dont think the 30 grams a day as a whole thing has any substance to it especially to use as a cookie cutter bench mark for all human beings. I dont subscribe to USDA anything..Now flip the USDA chart upside down and now we can talk. This would be called the macrobiotic diet with exception for a couple small changes.
 
 
Steve

Posted By : TheAnswersYouSeek - 4/1/2013 12:36 PM
Okey do key.. You believe Robb Wolff and I'll keep with my science. And we'll hope this fad doesn't see a rise in colon cancer rates tOo like there is significant debate Atkins did..you can go educate yourself on both sides of that debate

Good luck on your journey.

I'd like to live longer then hunter/gatherers, personally

www.coloncancerfoundation.org/prevention/expertOpinionsArticles/drFuhrman20100721.html

news.discovery.com/human/health/living-longer-121015.htm

Post Edited (PathogenKiller) : 4/1/2013 1:39:28 PM (GMT-6)


Posted By : Formyson - 4/1/2013 12:44 PM
PK - thank you for sharing your whole story. You have been through so much I hardly know what to say! What an amazing job you have done in perservering and working toward wellness. Thank you for sharing all this info regarding RS, etc. wishing you continued and improving health.

Posted By : TheAnswersYouSeek - 4/1/2013 1:01 PM
Formyson, so glad to share.. I feel like at this point I have alot more resources then many people and the ability to travel to doctors, eat crazy expensive diets and take chances on supplements that many don't..

I'll continue to update as I have no illusion that these are all my answers and things change through recovery.. I had to go low carb for a period to starve out the SIBO.. There was no other way.. But then you have to do the next step and the next.. Chronic disease is like removing layers of an onion..
Current: No Dairy, Sugar, Wheat or Soy.. Olive leaf (20% Oleuoropein), Lauricidin/monolaurin, NA-Cysteine, CoQ10, Psyllium/Apple pectin, Ferula, Triphalia, methylation pathway support, sodium butyrate, anantamul, Blis K12, VSL#3, PB8, Proteolytic enzymes, Proferrin

Posted By : TheAnswersYouSeek - 4/1/2013 2:37 PM
apple pectin pertinent studies
carcin.oxfordjournals.org/content/31/10/1822.long
ajcn.nutrition.org/content/48/6/1413.full.pdf
Current: No Dairy, Sugar, Wheat or Soy.. Olive leaf (20% Oleuoropein), Lauricidin/monolaurin, NA-Cysteine, CoQ10, Psyllium/Apple pectin, Ferula, Triphalia, methylation pathway support, sodium butyrate, anantamul, Blis K12, VSL#3, PB8, Proteolytic enzymes, Proferrin

Posted By : Little Buddy - 4/1/2013 3:00 PM
I have been following this thread with great interest and plan on getting some Navy Beans ASAP. I'm also expecting my RX for Uceris to show up today, and I'm wondering if a diet high in resistant starches will make it, or any drug (like Lialda) that is supposed to become active when it hits the colon, more effective. I say that because in the very first posting of this thread is an article called "ulcerative colitis in remission: A potential new target for dietary intervention" where they found that...

"...Whole Gut Transit Time in UC on the low WB/RS supplements showed wide variation (17 to 96 h) compared with controls (39 to 96 h). With high Wheat Bran /Resistant Starch, WGTT consistently decreased (mean 51 to 40 h; p = 0.02) in controls, while its variance in UC considerably reduced (mean 42 h, range 24 to 77 h).

So for us UC'ers with high RS consumption, food and presumably medicines could take longer to get through your system (more like a normal person). Uceris is a topical med, so the longer the contact the better...
38 YO Dx 9/2009 with left-side UC. Last scope 11/12 downgraded to proctitis
Meds: Lialda x 2 or 3 depending on how I feel
Supplements: folic acid, calcium, vitamin D, olive oil, melatonin, Align

Posted By : TheAnswersYouSeek - 4/1/2013 3:19 PM
interesting patent request re butyrate and budesonide (uceris).. they threw in some mesalamine too
www.google.com/patents/US20100184728

www.gastroendonews.com/ViewArticle.aspx?d=In%2Bthe%2BNews&d_id=187&i=October+2012&i_id=889&a_id=21908

Posted By : killcolitis - 4/1/2013 3:34 PM
A good article on fiber, paleo and butyrates if anyone's intersted:

http://chriskresser.com/myths-and-truths-about-fiber

Posted By : DanthaMan - 4/1/2013 4:32 PM
I remember someone either posting or reading on another forum about tapioca starch. I believe the guy was from India and was put into remission from it.
ACES+Zinc
Heathers Peppermint Oil
Curamed
Ubiquinol

UC since 2001, 31 year old male. Finding relief with no gluten/diary. Organic fruits/veggies/meat.

Posted By : TheAnswersYouSeek - 4/1/2013 6:14 PM
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1774255/

Short chain fatty acids, including butyrate, proprionate, and lactate, are generated in the colon as result of bacterial fermentation of dietary fibre by luminal bacteria such as Bifidobacterium, Eubacterium, and Lactobacillus species. Roediger et al demonstrated significant inhibition of butyrate but not glucose oxidation by hydrogen sulphide in the ascending colon, splenic flexure, and in the rectosigmoid region.15 A direct anti-inflammatory effect for butyrate, the most extensively studied of the short chain fatty acids, may be attributable to its inhibition of nuclear factor κB, thus preventing the transcription of proinflammatory cytokines.16 In this study, butyrate also attenuated dextran sulphate sodium (DSS) induced colitis. Furthermore, butyrate has been demonstrated to reduce colonic permeability by enhancing peroxisome proliferator activated receptor γ (PPAR-γ) activation.17 This is of special interest as PPAR-γ ligands show antineoplastic and anti-inflammatory effects in experimental colitis.18

Patients with active extensive UC have decreased colonic butyrate oxidation. As remission of disease is associated with normalisation of butyrate oxidation, UC mucosa is not intrinsically altered in butyrate oxidation.19 Butyrate enemas have been shown to be of benefit in the management of distal UC.20,21

So, how to increase faecal butyrate levels? In animal and human studies, ingestion of resistant fibre has resulted in an increase in the population of Bifidobacillus and Lactobacillus in the colon and an increase in faecal butyrate concentrations. Administration of oat bran over three months to UC patients in remission (corresponding to 20 g dietary fibre) has recently been shown to result in increased faecal butyrate levels and in this pilot study no relapses were observed.22 Alternative strategies of delivering short chain fatty acids to the inflamed colon are by providing a substrate, a “prebiotic”, for short chain fatty acid production by colonic bacteria, or directly delivering probiotics to the intestinal lumen.
Go to:
PREBIOTICS IN UC: EFFECTIVE VIA BUTYRATE INDUCTION?

Prebiotics are defined as non-digestible food ingredients that beneficially affect the host by selectively stimulating the growth or activity of bacterial species already present in the gut. A germinated barley foodstuff (GBF) which contains hemicellulose rich fibre and glutamine rich protein has been shown to attenuate inflammation in DSS, trinitrobenzene sulphonic acid (TNBS), and HLA-B27 transgenic animal models of colitis.23 In DSS colitis, GBF suppressed significantly serum interleukin 6 levels and mucosal STAT-3 expression. These effects may be caused by increased faecal butyrate production.24 GBF has been demonstrated to improve disease activity in a small pilot study in patients with active UC.25 In a controlled small study investigating 18 patients with active UC, patients were treated with baseline anti-inflammatory treatment with or without GBF. GBF therapy resulted in a significantly better outcome and was associated with increased faecal concentrations of Bifidobacterium and Eubacterium limosum.26 Another important study in the area of prebiotic and dietary fibre has been performed by a Spanish collaborative group.27 In this large study, Plantago ovata seeds (dietary fibre 20 g/day) was compared with mesalamine in the maintenance of remission in patients with UC (n = 105). Treatment failure rate was 40% in the Plantago ovata seed group, 35% in the mesalamine group, and 30% in the Plantaga ovata plus mesalamine group. A significant increase in faecal butyrate levels was observed after Plantago ovata seed administration. The same preparation was also shown to ameliorate colonic damage in HLA-B27 transgenic rats and this effect was also associated with increased production in short chain fatty acids.28 Therefore, most of prebiotic products might exert their beneficial effects via modulating short chain fatty acid metabolism.
Current: No Dairy, Sugar, Wheat or Soy.. Olive leaf (20% Oleuoropein), Lauricidin/monolaurin, NA-Cysteine, CoQ10, Psyllium/Apple pectin, Ferula, Triphalia, methylation pathway support, sodium butyrate, anantamul, Blis K12, VSL#3, PB8, Proteolytic enzymes, Proferrin

Posted By : aguywithuc - 4/2/2013 9:21 AM
Formyson said...
Aguywirhuc- thanks! I know everyone is different, but I am encouraged by your results. Just FYI, Edenfoods brand "properly" prepares their canned beans (soaked, then cooked with Kombu) which supposedly helps with bean digestion.

What do you mean about psyllium being tough?

Well, we have sodium butyrate on order and are going to make a big effort with this approach (among other things)


Yeah I just got some new beans last night from Whole foods that stated they soaked overnight and rinsed PLUS they tossed in the seawood which is for enzymes that breakup the sugar causing gas.

P-seed powder is just hard to consume because it is not really a food and tastes like dirt, so I either pack my own large capsules from blanks ( pain ) or buy capsules of P-seed powder but they are not as effective as the cup of beans ( NAVY ). Even if you blend into smoothies it sticks to the sides like concrete. Much happier with the Navy Beans.

3 days early I dropped another 5mg of pred yesteday to 15mg. I thought it was functioning as narcotic pain reliever because my arms ache due to the UC-related Auto accident vascular events ( clotted artery-left, clotted vein right arm courtesy of the hospital ). However I think it was just from driving errands for hours so I chilled out and took no more prednisone.

No urgency this morning with coffee and workout stims and thinking I can finally remain below 20 mg and head toward zero THANKS to RS diet. Previous drop resulted in urgency and blood, after all I am on high dose blood thinners and Nattokinase and Serrapeptase, carrying around Vitamin K2 in case I get into bloody car crash I am downing that stuff right away, taking Natto and Serra at night only when I am safely in bed and not driving to downtown Denver.

Post Edited (aguywithuc) : 4/2/2013 9:26:11 AM (GMT-6)


Posted By : twiggs - 4/2/2013 9:39 AM
Pathogen please dont put words in my mouth. Rob Wolff who is that? I prescribe to common sense. I see by the list of things you take in your signature your on the right path or still trying to find it? None the less I was just making a point about fiber. I hope you find your remission and what works for you.
In remission!
One canasa every 3 days down from 4 asacol 800 HD a day and Canasa as needed which was often in begining. (updated 3/26/13)
Daily multivitamin,l-lysine, cod oil, adding soy protien drink and vit C esterified.
Mbiotic diet with emphasis on lots of fresh organic greens especially spinach. Fresh fruit and berries. I eat liver at least twice a month. No gluten nuts seeds.

Posted By : TheAnswersYouSeek - 4/2/2013 10:03 AM
twiggs, Im in clinical remission and am not taking any RX drugs. I obtained my remission with diet, non rx enemas, supplements and herbs.. I only put healing things into my body instead of managing symptoms. Until adding the butyrate, I experienced constipation that worried me simply because I need to move toxins. It doesnt effect my life in any way.

Rob wolf is the guy who popularized paleo.

Now Im dealing with all the things that gastros never caught, chronic infections and repairing the damage. I have not had blood, urgency, etc in 10+ months now and the recent stool test classified my colitis markers as mild to moderate (more toward mild based on the numbers, with no blood) which is pretty remarkable considering I signed myself outta the hospital AMA after being told I had no other choice but to have my colon cut out and that Id die if I left.

Im obviously alive and healthier then I can ever remember being. Sadly, I dont have any memory of being truly healthy as this disease has effected me since childhood.

Post Edited (PathogenKiller) : 4/2/2013 10:27:08 AM (GMT-6)


Posted By : DanthaMan - 4/2/2013 12:23 PM
went ahead and ordered the sodium butyrate from amazon. I did a butyrate enema about ten years ago and I can't remember what it did. That was still close to being diagnosed and I wasnt as familiar with my body as I am today. It might have helped but I was looking for a one pill cure then.
ACES+Zinc
Heathers Peppermint Oil
Curamed


UC since 2001, 32 year old male. Finding relief with no gluten/diary. Organic fruits/veggies/meat.

Posted By : aguywithuc - 4/2/2013 2:03 PM
Formyson said...
Aguywirhuc- thanks! I know everyone is different, but I am encouraged by your results. Just FYI, Edenfoods brand "properly" prepares their canned beans (soaked, then cooked with Kombu) which supposedly helps with bean digestion.

What do you mean about psyllium being tough?

Well, we have sodium butyrate on order and are going to make a big effort with this approach (among other things)


Edenfoods that is the same brand I picked up yestereday :)

Posted By : aguywithuc - 4/2/2013 2:08 PM
Little Buddy said...
I have been following this thread with great interest and plan on getting some Navy Beans ASAP. I'm also expecting my RX for Uceris to show up today, and I'm wondering if a diet high in resistant starches will make it, or any drug (like Lialda) that is supposed to become active when it hits the colon, more effective. I say that because in the very first posting of this thread is an article called "ulcerative colitis in remission: A potential new target for dietary intervention" where they found that...

"...Whole Gut Transit Time in UC on the low WB/RS supplements showed wide variation (17 to 96 h) compared with controls (39 to 96 h). With high Wheat Bran /Resistant Starch, WGTT consistently decreased (mean 51 to 40 h; p = 0.02) in controls, while its variance in UC considerably reduced (mean 42 h, range 24 to 77 h).

So for us UC'ers with high RS consumption, food and presumably medicines could take longer to get through your system (more like a normal person). Uceris is a topical med, so the longer the contact the better...


I still find that part a little confusing and interpreted it to mean WGTT reduced and the variance in range from high to low also decreased so I was expecting some speedup, but so far if anything I have had a bit of a slowdown and that beats the heck of out of urgency while at the bottom half of my final prednisone taper. Wont ever take that again it simulates a coagulation disorder in my blood and results in clots.

Posted By : Formyson - 4/2/2013 10:35 PM
Glad you found the Edenfoods brand, guywithuc.
We don't have Whole Foods but we do have Earthfare, and their store brand appears to be the same as edenfoods. 
 
Slowly giving my son just a small portion, to avoid discomfort, and I want to keep his sulfur levels down.

Posted By : aguywithuc - 4/3/2013 7:39 AM
Formyson said...
Glad you found the Edenfoods brand, guywithuc.We don't have Whole Foods but we do have Earthfare, and their store brand appears to be the same as edenfoods.

Slowly giving my son just a small portion, to avoid discomfort, and I want to keep his sulfur levels down.


Yeah its nice they tell you exactly how they prepared them because this is the core of my diet now. Keeping eggs and chicken but the FRAME is navy beans. After several meals of the old brand I was getting rather gassy so with Edenfoods I rinsed out the beans after opening and threw some pepperjack cheese on them as they warmed. Daughter is trying to get used to them but I had a nice plate of them, tasted fine will have to experiment and here I am 12 hours later with zero gas and high quality waste.

Taper down going fine and nattokinase + serrapeptin at night seems to work better on lower pred dose. I can thank Lima Beans for the lower pred dose no sign of bleeding at all. 15mg came early, could make a move for 10 early too. Adrenal glandulars I think do also stimulate the adrenals as well so all of this makes up my toolkit for taper to 0.00 - I found yohimbine the perfect stimulant while tapering, not only does it rev up the CNS it is not vasocontstrictive it is a vasodilator. That is key because the double strength procardia is getting good circulation into hand over remaing radial artery and I use my hands all day to drive into the city and work on computer. Now all of these things are working together to get me off prednisone and away from all doctors/surgeons.

Eating green banana's but need another RS food that is high in RS, cold potatos and cold pasta did not seem worth the trouble as they are quite low.

RS1

On the starch resistant scale of RS1 to RS4, lentils and beans come in at RS1. Using a half-cup of beans or lentils in your diet may add between 2 to 4 g of resistant starch. A daily intake of around 25 g from different sources may be adequate.

RS2

HI-Maze is example of RS food occurring naturally in granular form. This is a flour substitute.

RS3

An RS3 designation refers to foods that have been cooked and cooled such as yams and potatoes.

RS4

RS4 refers to starches that don't exist in nature and are chemically altered.

The list..

www.vitalchoice.com/shop/pc/catalog/chart-1.300.jpg

Posted By : IBDISTHEPITS - 4/3/2013 12:46 PM
A few questions-

Do you rinse the Navy Beans ( Eden Foods Brand) ?
Do you heat them up? Can you make a bean dip?
How much to start?

Thanks

Posted By : aguywithuc - 4/3/2013 1:12 PM
IBDISTHEPITS said...
A few questions-

Do you rinse the Navy Beans ( Eden Foods Brand) ?
Do you heat them up? Can you make a bean dip?
How much to start?

Thanks


Had my first can of Eden Foods last night, I opened the can, rinsed it good and tossed them into a heated pain, slapped some pepperjack cheese over them and chowed them down hot.

That beats potatos and pasta because

1) Hot is fine
2) Several times more RS

I think you can do anything you want with them.

zero gas since eating over half a can. You might start with 1/4 can then later in the day after other foods another 1/4 can.

I feel like I could eat the entire can with no problems now.

My newly built home has these toilets throughout I hate. They save water but I will be replacing them. When they flush its small volume but kind of violent, and normally whatever lands in there just goes into a cloud on flush, but with these beans its solid like clay and they hold their form like tree logs - like they used to.

Only thing left to do is figure out how to make their neutral flavor more tasty by adding the right stuff. So far quality swiss and pepperjack is working fine.

Posted By : IamCurious - 4/3/2013 2:27 PM
fyi

Eden Foods is the ONLY company that packs its canned foodstuffs without that toxic BPA. Even canned goods from Whole Foods contain BPA.
Male/61 DX IBD in Feb08. No meds, allergic to Mesalamine. Remission since Mar10. Powdered psyllium seed mixed with VSL3 is very helpful. Food journal instead of SCD or Paleo.

Lots of fruit & vegetables (but no plums or cruciferous), No Gluten, no soda, no HFCS, no xylitol or sorbitol, no trans fat, no shellfish, few processed foods, no carrageenan.
Probiotics, fish oil, multivitamin, extra D3, K2, E complex, phos choline, magnesium, boswellia, curcumin, DGL, glutamine.
Nature created all of the locks, therefore Nature has all of the keys

Posted By : IBDISTHEPITS - 4/3/2013 2:30 PM
Just made a dip pureeing beans and adding salt, lemon juice and some olive oil.
It is really good and easy to eat-

Do you think you need to eat RS every day to benefit from it?

also- it needs to be eaten at room temp?

Thanks
Daughter, age 12. Diagnosed with UC 10/2009 (Pancolitis)
Unable to take mesalamines.(Made her symptoms worse)
6-MP
VSL#3


Husband- Diagnosed 09/11 with proctitis-
Asacol 3 @ 2 times a day

Posted By : Formyson - 4/3/2013 3:22 PM
Great, IBDISTHEPITS!
I tossed a small amount into a veg broth based soup with some other easy to digest (for him) vegs.
I also made some white basmati rice (he cannot tolerate brown yet - says he feels the prickles/scrathches all throughout his colon). I cooked the rice in a little ghee (extra butyric acid boost I suppose) then served with a few navy beans added in with a little diced avocado and fresh squeezed lemon. He liked that!
I am not sure how we will tolerate this so am taking it slowly as aguywithuc explained. I think the beans are ok not at room temp if I am not mistaken. The potatoes are best cold, as the resistant starch in potatoes needs to be chilled to crystallize, I believe. As for rice, I need to check on that or maybe someone else knows... Seems like these things work right within the diet you are already doing!

Guywithuc - so glad it is going so well for you. You must be very encouraged.

Babinthewoods - Thanks for the BPA tip!! I didn't catch that about the store brand, as I was so glad to see they used the kombu, thanks! Back to Edenfoods or just soaking/cooking my own.

Posted By : aguywithuc - 4/3/2013 6:25 PM
Formyson said...
Great, IBDISTHEPITS!
I think the beans are ok not at room temp if I am not mistaken. The potatoes are best cold, as the resistant starch in potatoes needs to be chilled to crystallize, I believe.


Yes thanks all for the tips and recipes.

I eat them everyday to heal the colon as I taper pred. I can see the difference between the bean waste and the sugary yogurt waste. That's an in intra-day difference so skipping days would definitely matter. Going off the candy yogurt when it runs out tomorrow. Lowest I will go is chobani vanilla with cinnamon, plain yogurt seems unnecessary. That said RS changes the gut microbacteria or flora, therefore over time flora change plus mucosal healing would suggest later we can eat less RS as maintenance. ( more below ).

Beans are type 1, which does not change RS levels with heat so I prefer them.

The rest seem to be type 3 which does have that requirement plus they are not as high up in RS percentage, but you cant eat just beans so its good there are other choices.

RS3

An RS3 designation refers to foods that have to be cooked and cooled such as yams and potatoes.

Research on gut flora changes...

Resistant starches (RS) are starches or products of starch degradation that escape digestion and are not absorbed in the small intestine of healthy individuals . RS are classified into four categories according to the features that render it undigestible. RS type 1 is physically inaccessible starch whereas RS type 2 (RS2) is native granular starch consisting of ungelatinized granules. RS type 3 is retrograded amylose, and finally, RS type 4 (RS4) is chemically modified to achieve undigestibility. Several studies have shown RS have the potential to improve health, with one of the primary benefits being maintenance of healthy blood sugar levels . Though resistant to digestion in the small intestine, bacterial species that reside in the colon are capable of utilizing RS as a substrate. These fermentations lead to an increase of short chain fatty acids (SCFA), especially butyrate, and a reduction of secondary bile acids, phenol, and ammonia . These metabolic effects are likely to underlie some of the documented health benefits of RS, which include the prevention of colon cancer development and colitis in animal models.

Several studies have been performed to characterize the potential of RS to induce alterations in the composition of the gut microbiota.

The goal of the present study was to obtain a community wide perspective of the impact of RS on the composition of the human gut microbiota. We were further interested to compare RS4 and RS2 in this respect because most emphasis in the literature has been placed on the latter substrate.

www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0015046


.

Post Edited (aguywithuc) : 4/3/2013 6:39:01 PM (GMT-6)


Posted By : Formyson - 4/3/2013 6:31 PM
Thanks for the type explanation. Now I get it.

Posted By : aguywithuc - 4/3/2013 6:46 PM
Formyson said...
Thanks for the type explanation. Now I get it.


Your welcome. After lots of snake oil, I am really happy to find something effective, available and cheap.

I value freedom and health. It is spring time again and I am almost clear of some frightening health problems when things snowballed from an anemic flare and auto accident + prednsone back in January. I am biking, weightlifting, feeling as well as thinking like a 20-year old again.

Time to navigate out of this crazy UC storm once and for all.

I guess the list goes something like this :

RS ( Navy beans topping my list )
Psylliam Seed Powder
Spinach
Salmon
prednisone

Posted By : Formyson - 4/4/2013 11:09 AM
That is great, aguy! What a relief for you!
Think we are seeing some improvement in frequency and consistency...don't know what that means - too early to tell (and we've been there before...). But I see the merit in this, as well as other dietary things so will keep on. We added zinc-carnosine and butyrate this week, too. My son is currently med free but only because he can't take mesalamine and has developed Remicade antibodies. I am happy he is doing this well on no meds.

Posted By : aguywithuc - 4/4/2013 11:57 AM
Formyson said...
That is great, aguy! What a relief for you!
Think we are seeing some improvement in frequency and consistency...don't know what that means - too early to tell (and we've been there before...). But I see the merit in this, as well as other dietary things so will keep on. We added zinc-carnosine and butyrate this week, too. My son is currently med free but only because he can't take mesalamine and has developed Remicade antibodies. I am happy he is doing this well on no meds.


Good, go for the Eden brand it is best.

butyrate sounded great, I bought the wrong kind, going to be trying to add that post taper to zero.

Best luck to you.

Posted By : GutsZilla - 4/4/2013 8:46 PM
Where do you get your zinc carnosine?? Mine is really expensive,mane I'm always on the lookout for other sources.

Posted By : Formyson - 4/4/2013 8:52 PM
I got the wrong butyrate too and thanks to Pathogenkiller just ordered the sodium-butyrate instead.

GutsZilla - I got a great deal on the zinc-carnosine ordering from Vitacost. Doctor's Best PepZin GI - $18.00 for 120 capsules (retail value $34).

Posted By : aguywithuc - 4/5/2013 4:55 PM
Formyson said...
I got the wrong butyrate too and thanks to Pathogenkiller just ordered the sodium-butyrate instead.

GutsZilla - I got a great deal on the zinc-carnosine ordering from Vitacost. Doctor's Best PepZin GI - $18.00 for 120 capsules (retail value $34).


Got behind, had 1 year fix ups on the house, 6 different crews here.

What does the zinc-carnosine do ?

Which sodium-butyrate did you go with the amazon one with 500mg capsules ?

RS diet allowed me to go from 20mg prednisone sunday, 15mg Monday, and 10mg today. Slower from here but thrilled I ate downtown with friend at 'Tilted Kilt' a burger and fries and some more cheat foods like cookies BUT downed a can of rinsed navy with swiss cheese and I'm all good, 1 or 2 solid bm's per day.

Coagulation clinic said my INR was 5.0 not 2-3 so I have lots of blood thinner in me - but not bleeding, stools improving.

Posted By : freddyj - 4/5/2013 5:51 PM
Glad to hear youre poos are improving AGuy...

Interesting letils are mentioned, I recall eating lots for them when I went into remission the first time, so is heating them OK>? Or eating them hot after cooking?? Ironically, I ate them with swiss a lot.
currently on:
Asacol 1.6 g/3X per day
Transdermal LDN 4.5 mg/day
Various supplements
And no Quincy, Im not on mesalamine enemas.
didnt work for me.

Posted By : Formyson - 4/5/2013 6:25 PM
Yes, I got the sodium butyrate from Amazon. Still have some cal mag left so I think we might finish that up first?

Here is what my book, Inside Tract, by Gerad Mullin (excellent book and author who is the head of Integrative Gastroenterolgy at Johns Hopkins - also a masters degree in clinical nutrition) says about zinc carnosine:
"Zinc L-carnosine - a form of zinc that is bound to the amino acid L-carnosine - has a number of properties that guard the lining of your digestive tract. Clinically, zinc L-Carnosine has been found to protect the gut's mucosal lining." He cites a few studies demonstrating that in Crohn's patients, low zinc blood levels are common and that supplementaion with zinc significantly decreased small intestinal permeability. He cites another study showing a correlation of correction of zinc deficiency and IBD improvement.
He recommends 30 mg daily for gut lining repair in IBD. (Note this is not the same form as elemental zinc you would likely find in multivitamins).

You are seeing some great results. How wonderful for you to be returning to normal life! My son is slowly improving but not sure what the cause, or just the usual course of the disease...?? But he is doing well with the diet he is on now, so we will surely continue and monitor his results. I can't imagine 1- 2 a day!! Hasn't happened since diagnosis in October and he's been on everything (and is now on no meds....).

Posted By : aguywithuc - 4/5/2013 6:27 PM
freddyj said...
Ironically, I ate them with swiss a lot.


Ha!

Gonna try a tortilla wrap burrito, got Edin's kidney and I think lentil for variety.

Type 1 RS means we can eat them hot which is why I am all about the beans plus they have 10x as much RS as potatoes and pasta, I did the potatotos and pasta for a few days but nothing game changing. Now I am eating green bananas and will eat those as well but the backbone of the plan is the beans.

One can a day of heated rinsed Edins beans is making a HUGE difference.

Removed the sugary yogurts now that I am 10gm prednisone. Sugar elimination for soft landing. More RS foods too. Spinach would be good as well.

Lentils look low in RS..

wicwoes.com/2011/resistant-starch-diet-and-wic

Food Serving size Grams RS

Navy beans 1/2 cup cooked 9.8 --> Every day 1 full can
Banana, raw 1 medium, peeled 4.7 --> Every day 1 full banana
Cold potato 1/2” diameter 3.2
Lentils 1/2 cup cooked 2.5
Cold pasta 1 cup 1.9
Pearl barley 1/2 cup cooked 1.6
Oatmeal 1 cup cooked 0.7
Wholegrain bread 2 slices 0.5

Post Edited (aguywithuc) : 4/5/2013 11:56:51 PM (GMT-6)


Posted By : freddyj - 4/6/2013 12:00 AM
I remember Elaine G had lentils as legal if properly prepared, but she didn't say what that was. I assumed it meant soaking?

Posted By : Old Mike - 4/6/2013 5:57 AM
Aguy:I did RS diet years and years ago when they first found out about butyrate, stopped early into the diet after eating a can of split pea soup,
some of the worst gas and cramps I ever had. I may revisit this shortly, I am finding conflicting results as to whether RS is present in canned beans or not. I found one site where they said there is none, I will keep at it and see if I can find an answer.  If I restart will go slow,anything that up regulates IL-10 is good.
I also have done FOS and Inulin, lots of gas and pain.
Old Mike

Post Edited (Old Mike) : 4/6/2013 6:28:38 AM (GMT-6)


Posted By : Old Mike - 4/6/2013 6:21 AM
This site says canned have RS.
this new info says as soon as you heat it the rs is gone,not sure what the heck is going on
good article out of sweden
http://www.nature.com/ejcn/journal/v56/n6/pdf/1601338a.pdf

Post Edited (Old Mike) : 4/6/2013 8:07:42 AM (GMT-6)


Posted By : aguywithuc - 4/6/2013 3:22 PM
Old Mike said...
Aguy:I did RS diet years and years ago when they first found out about butyrate, stopped early into the diet after eating a can of split pea soup,
some of the worst gas and cramps I ever had. I may revisit this shortly, I am finding conflicting results as to whether RS is present in canned beans or not. I found one site where they said there is none, I will keep at it and see if I can find an answer. If I restart will go slow,anything that up regulates IL-10 is good.I also have done FOS and Inulin, lots of gas and pain.
Old Mike


I have always done well with Pure Green Protein since it is from peas.

I started RS diet with RS3 sub-category and the room temp potatos and pasta was very low on the scale, where RS1 Navy beans have 3x - 10x as much and from everything I read only RS3 requires heat-then-cool preparation so we should be able to eat beans hot. I could experiment with cooled beans for a few days and if there is a striking difference then I know what the answer is.

Nothing works like Vicadin or the I.V. narcotic they gave me for angiogram 2 weeks ago -perfect fat ropelike waste, but you cannot go thru life on narcotics.

RS makes mine solid and clay like, but I am tapering fast and on high dose coumadin plus clot buster Serrapeptase and Nattokinase, risky but was making progress however this puts the gut at high risk with prednisone dropping. So cutting out Serra and Natto till post-taper to zero.

It seemed like RS reduced inflammation resulting in needing much less prednisone.

Hard to find much more info, keep running into the same articles on RS - it is fairly new on the scene.

Navy beans are tops and adding salsa and swiss cheese makes a delicious meal.
Bananas are next highest but need to be green - just the opposite of what Elaine G. calls for
Pasta/potatos etc are pretty low but give us a bit of variety.

Hope you give it a whirl, again only RS1 navy beans & green bananas were game-changing for me I did not notice a huge difference with RS3.

Posted By : aguywithuc - 4/6/2013 3:31 PM
Old Mike said...
This site says canned have RS.http://beaninstitute.com/beans-101/health-promoting-bioactives/
this new info says as soon as you heat it the rs is gone,not sure what the heck is going on
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/02/130219140716.htm
good article out of sweden
http://www.nature.com/ejcn/journal/v56/n6/pdf/1601338a.pdf


Interesting facts :

expected glycemic index of black beans was 44.
expected glycemic index values of 12-12.2 for navy and light and dark kidney beans.

They concluded that beans were a low glycemic food and that the resistant starch content was the like reason behind the low glycemic index of the beans.

Flours of navy beans had a resistant starch content of 32.4% followed by light red kidney beans (35.5%) and dark kidney beans (36%).

Cooking of beans in general increases the resistant starch levels.

Canned beans and precooked bean flours also have higher values of resistant starch compared to raw beans

Post Edited (aguywithuc) : 4/6/2013 3:37:13 PM (GMT-6)


Posted By : aguywithuc - 4/6/2013 3:46 PM
We have a couple unsolved questions.

1) Are canned beans as effective as home prepared beans ? I will try to prepare some tonight.
2) Do we need to cool the beans or not ?

I keep reading things like this that single out the RS3 types for cooling but in the same paragraph do not treat RS1 legumes this way :

Resistant starch can be found in many foods, but there are certain foods that contain high amounts of this miracle nutrient. Foods with highly-concentrated amounts of resistant starch include oats, puffed wheat cereal, slightly green bananas, whole-grain breads, Italian and sourdough bread, legumes (beans and peas) , cooked and cooled potatoes and yams, cooked and cooled rice and pasta (both whole-grain and refined grain), cooked plantains, corn flakes, rice cereal, potato chips, corn tortillas, barley, and millet.

Posted By : bettylou - 4/6/2013 5:13 PM
Following on from aguywithuc, what about canned beans we eat in England called Baked Beans (wikipedia says the nearest thing you have in the US is Heinz Premium Vegetarian Beans)? They are haricot (i.e. navy) beans in a tomato sauce. Perfectly edible cold or hot.

Do these count? If so, I'm in for trying this...
Ulcerative Colitis: diagnosed as moderate pan-colitis August 2008.
Baby daughter born October 2010. Struggling to cope since.
Lialda/Mezavant 4.8g/day; Salofalk enemas as needed.
Tapering pred and thinking about going on 6MP again (bad reaction last time)
90% paleo

Posted By : aguywithuc - 4/7/2013 10:56 AM
bettylou said...
Following on from aguywithuc, what about canned beans we eat in England called Baked Beans (wikipedia says the nearest thing you have in the US is Heinz Premium Vegetarian Beans)? They are haricot (i.e. navy) beans in a tomato sauce. Perfectly edible cold or hot.

Do these count? If so, I'm in for trying this...


bettylou,

Wikipedia agrees with you..


The small, white navy bean or haricot bean is particularly popular in the United Kingdom and the United States (where it may also be called pea bean). It features in such dishes as baked beans and even pies, as well as in various soups such as Senate bean soup. Consumption of baked beans has been shown to lower total cholesterol levels and low-density lipoprotein cholesterol. This might be at least partly explained by high saponin content of navy bean. Saponins also exhibit antibacterial and anti-fungal activity, and have been found to inhibit cancer cell growth. Furthermore, navy bean is the richest source of ferulic acid and p-coumaric acid among the common bean varieties.

Navy bean varieties include:

Great Northern
Rainy River
Robust
Michelite
Sanilac

Posted By : aguywithuc - 4/7/2013 11:25 AM
One of my sports drink powders contains RS.


Tropical Punch with Fiber Sugar Free Drink Sticks

www.nowfoods.com/Foods/Better-Stevia/Products/Better-Stevia-Beverages/081241.htm


Fibersol®-2

www.fibersol.com/products/fibersol-2/

Posted By : aguywithuc - 4/7/2013 1:14 PM
RS is shown to make consumers feel fuller ( satiety ), less hungry, tastes better etc.

www.resistantstarch.com/NR/rdonlyres/80DF3A03-D27F-4130-9E0C-9CA7770BE2B3/0/JoanneSlavin.pdf

This is why it is expected to control weight.

At vitamin cottage none of the employees had ever heard of Resistant Starch and looked at me very puzzled, I took home some gluten free bread with Resistant Starch in it and their Squenchers drink powder with RS was sold out.

Posted By : Old Mike - 4/7/2013 6:11 PM
Here is a good study on beans and DDS mouse colitis,long and hard to get through.
Upshot,helps pre illness,aggrivates post DDS colitis induction.
Old Mike

Posted By : aguywithuc - 4/7/2013 6:54 PM
Old Mike said...
Here is a good study on beans and DDS mouse colitis,long and hard to get through.Upshot,helps pre illness,aggrivates post DDS colitis induction.
Old Mike
http://www.uoguelph.ca/hhns/grad/pdf_theses/ZhangMScThesisSept2012.pdf


"However, when bean
consumption was limited to prior to DSS induction only, mice had reduced colitis upon
later DSS induction. Overall, findings suggest that the effects of bean may differ depending
on the timing of consumption. "

I think I read that when I started finding the RS diet. Nowhere did I read that it is for stopping a flare. However I decided to try it since things were more or less calm with prednisone 40mg. I did have middle of the night urgency where I had only seconds to run to can upon waking which ended upon starting RS, has not returned since.

Meanwhile stool quality benefited and with reduced inflammation I needed less prednisone. Sooooooo I have remained on the diet but it is worth noting that it might be best to start cautiously when flaring.

Posted By : Old Mike - 4/14/2013 9:37 AM
Here is a small study. I have done this years ago,may revisit.
Old Mike
 

Posted By : aguywithuc - 4/14/2013 9:49 AM
Old Mike said...
Here is a small study. I have done this years ago,may revisit.Old Mike
https://www.ecco-ibd.eu/publications/congress-abstract-s/item/p208-abnorm.html?category_id=176


I have seen that one before.

1) Improved transit time
2) Improved fermentation and conversion to SCFA...butyrate

I also have read

3) Corrects intestinal flora and PH

New facts are that the Type 3 RS pasta and potatos need to be cooked,cooled and stored for a period of time.

I am only using RS Type 1 ( legumes ) and Type 2 ( HI-Maize resistant starch )

So far with no legumes yesterday and using HI-Maize added to smoothies and baked into muffins I have no gas and despite 1 cup of coffee and my DIY energy drink concoction I did not get my morning BM so I take that as a positive that this Type 2 HI-Maize might workout so well I do not need the beans.

The muffins, 6 large ones involved 1/2 cup of unrefined sugar, my yogurts have a lot of sugar, I do not crave sugar with the RS starch but I also dont have to avoid it......PREDNISONE 0.00 DAY 4 here and normally sugar is outlawed at this time for me but I am fine with stimulants and sugar while on RS diet and blood thinners and just made a soft landing off PREDNISONE.

Posted By : Old Mike - 4/14/2013 10:06 AM
Aguy:Where are you getting the hi maize,do you have a link,what brand ect.
OM

Posted By : Formyson - 4/14/2013 1:53 PM
Excellent, aguy.
I was going to ask if anyone has tried the hi-maize and here it was, good to know. I had looked at a product online, but was nervous about it. Can you tell me what else is in your muffins? My son is liking the cold potato salad (just a little Braggs cider vinegar, evoo, and organic turkey bacon). He is FINALLY almost blood free, which steroids never even did for him (but this is likely more a result of taking out tomatoes, however) and steady at 5-6 bm a day with decent consistency (bristol 4-5 mostly), but can't get any better than that unfortunately, for the most part.

Posted By : aguywithuc - 4/14/2013 2:30 PM
Formyson said...
Excellent, aguy.
I was going to ask if anyone has tried the hi-maize and here it was, good to know. I had looked at a product online, but was nervous about it. Can you tell me what else is in your muffins? My son is liking the cold potato salad (just a little Braggs cider vinegar, evoo, and organic turkey bacon). He is FINALLY almost blood free, which steroids never even did for him (but this is likely more a result of taking out tomatoes, however) and steady at 5-6 bm a day with decent consistency (bristol 4-5 mostly), but can't get any better than that unfortunately, for the most part.


Congratulations!

Posted By : aguywithuc - 4/14/2013 2:35 PM
Old Mike said...
Aguy:Where are you getting the hi maize,do you have a link,what brand ect.
OM


I was comparing and one site gave you a tiny amount for a lot of money. ( king arthur )

THEN I read they all come from the same source - the same company. So at that point I went with amazon which sells the re-branded 'Honeyville' Hi-Maize.

www.amazon.com/Hi-Maize-Resistant-Starch-Pound-Bag/dp/B00993APG8/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1365971513&sr=8-1&keywords=hi+maize+resistant+starch

Only this bag is 5 lbs for 19.95 and seemed like a lifetime supply !

I have another bag from them, some polydextrose nonsense that never did anything like the 100 other things I keep as reminders.

So just get the best price point its all from the same place www.hi-maize.com/Himaize/USA/Home

I should know in a few more days if this means legumes are history. Just put another spoonful in my afternoon drink. No flavor change but slightly better consistency.

Posted By : Old Mike - 4/14/2013 2:49 PM
Ok thanks,will await your results. I read about this stuff say 10 years ago,never did anything with it,
probably not easy to find back then.
Old Mike

Posted By : Guardian7 - 4/14/2013 4:12 PM
How are you doing with the hi-maize aguywithuc? Any issues?

Posted By : Old Mike - 4/14/2013 4:59 PM
Oat bran feeding to increase buytrate,believe I have done this or something like it.
Old Mike
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12769445

Posted By : aguywithuc - 4/14/2013 7:27 PM
Old Mike said...
Oat bran feeding to increase buytrate,believe I have done this or something like it.
Old Mike


I am fairly certain that RS boosts butyrate way beyond other methods such as psyllium seed powder. One of the reasons I believe this is because it thickened the mucosal layer in this study in a dose dependent way.

high amylose maize starch (HAMS)

"mucus barrier thinnest in rats fed 0% HAMS. DNA damage was reduced and the mucus barrier thickened in a logarithmic dose-dependent manner by HAMS. "

That is what I think happened when I got on RS allowing me to chop pred rapidly with no bleeding.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17218781

I tried oats before RS and no change. The study you posted suggested some wheat grains with RS, that is a tough sell to this crowd with so many people off gluten. Maybe oats and RS is good, I cannot recall if oats has gluten.

Post Edited (aguywithuc) : 4/14/2013 9:10:05 PM (GMT-6)


Posted By : aguywithuc - 4/14/2013 7:36 PM
StealthGuardian said...
How are you doing with the hi-maize aguywithuc? Any issues?


Well a whole lot less gas :).

I keep dumping a teaspoonful into my hydration and energy drinks. I keep eating the almond-poppy seed muffins baked last night.

Baked the first batch and totally forgot to replace 25% of flour with RS - duh.

I put too many eggs in so they are not as fluffy and light as store bought but good eating and no GI issues that is for sure. Only had a single bm and that was about 4 hours after my normal morning bm. Don't expect another until tomorrow morning. Had dinner with folks and big steak and lots of vegetables. I actually turned down desert which on the previous trip I wolfed down. RS diet improves insulin resistance and gives long burning energy foods so I do not crave sweets like I always have my whole life.

So with only 1 bm in the books we need to see how I do this week and since your interested I will hold off the Navy beans and see if this RS2 stuff will keep me going with solid clay like stools that do not disperse on flush but hold together like before UC. I am not drinking milk or eating wheat btw - loads of sugar but I will eat pasta, when I get a chance I am going to cook up some pasta and follow the mantra - cook, cool and store for a period of time then eat it cold or room temp.

Green bananas are always in the mix per RS diet. Oh I guess I am kidding myself the muffins are made of Gold Medal All purpose flour which is from wheat and the egg sandwhich I made this morning was on two large pieces of bread that had wheat as a main ingredient. :)

Posted By : Indycat23 - 4/14/2013 8:27 PM
Are you eating an exclusive RS diet or just adding RS foods to your normal diet? Hope your success continues. I'm thinking of giving this a try too.
Pancolitis-- Diagnosed 3/2011
Current Meds-Pred tapering, Humira, Asacol, Vit D, Sodium Butyrate, Canasa/Rowasa

Stuff I've tried-Imuran, Remicade, Black Cherry Concentrate, SCD, Tumeric, Slippery Elm, Chia Seeds, Psyllium Seed,

Posted By : aguywithuc - 4/14/2013 9:08 PM
Indycat23 said...
Are you eating an exclusive RS diet or just adding RS foods to your normal diet? Hope your success continues. I'm thinking of giving this a try too.


Thanks Indy, Yes I am adding it in everywhere I can, target is 20-30 grams of fiber daily and I want it mostly RS fiber.

Began with cooled pasta and cooled potato, no gain BUT I was not adhering to 'cooked,cooled and stored for a period of time'.
Went to legumes and cheapo brand had amazing effect and gassy.
Moved on to pricier brand that said it washed and soaked and rinsed.
No gas at all and kind of seemed like the benefit was lacking too ( need to revisit that test )
Returned to cheap .50 cent cans and benefit returned, a bit gassy so eat late in the day at office and dinner.
Now I stopped legumes because RS type 2 HI-MAIZE starch arrived in 5 lb bag.

I also eat green banana's, Elaine would hate this but RS diet calls for it.
Some breads mention restricted starch in my kitchen, they are gluten free type
Some drink powders like Squenchers mention restricted starch diet and I use that.
I baked HI-Maize into muffins.

Beyond that I eat whatever I want, sugary dannon natural coffee flavored yogurt is good but too sweet that I am on the diet which controls glucose tolerance etc. I also love Dannon natural vanilla yogurt which is loaded with sugar. At the office I ate a big bag of cookies one day after climbing 15 flights of stairs. I would say I am eating pretty healthy but if I want a peanut butter or almond butter and honey sandwhich I wont hesitate to eat one or two.

Trying to slip as much RS into my diet as I can.

No milk and I am avoiding anything with sulfites. It removes B1 and after a period of that people start looking like UC'ers. Out went my favorite hash browns 'simply potatos' I think is the brand. I read any potato product missing the skin is likely to have sulfites.


Here is reminder of the RS types.

RS1

On the starch resistant scale of RS1 to RS4, lentils and beans come in at RS1. Using a half-cup of beans or lentils in your diet may add between 2 to 4 g of resistant starch. A daily intake of around 25 g from different sources may be adequate.

RS2

HI-Maze is example of RS food occurring naturally in granular form. This is a flour substitute.

RS3

An RS3 designation refers to foods that have been cooked and cooled such as yams and potatoes.

RS4

RS4 refers to starches that don't exist in nature and are chemically altered.

The list..

www.vitalchoice.com/shop/pc/catalog/chart-1.300.jpg

Posted By : tap - 4/15/2013 5:26 AM
aguywithuc, for you, does HAMS consumption lead to gas production?

My experience is that both potatoes and bananas cause me to produce large quantities of gas about four hours after consumption. Could the gas production be a side effect of producing butyrate?

It would be nice to be able to consume something that produces butyrate but not much gas.
47 - male - Diagnosed with pancolitis in 1998
Status: 1 stool a day
Vitamin D3 - 10000 IU three times per week (Status: 65 ng/ML);
Asacol - 2 400mg pills 3 times per day

Posted By : Guardian7 - 4/15/2013 10:19 AM
Luckily for us there are many kinds of resistant starches. If one doesn't agree with our colon, then perhaps it's best to try another

Coming from an Indian family, I think the key for Indians not getting IBD (at least in the previous generations) was emphasis on lentils, rotis and ghee in their diets - all pecursors to butyrate production in the colon. Not to mention the abundance of anti-inflammatory foods like spinach, ginger, turmeric, etc.

I'm trying whole wheat flour and potatoes to see if this thing works out for me.

Posted By : therearemiracles - 4/15/2013 11:35 AM
I just saw the Dr. Oz talk about this RS and I'm going to the store....green bananas, navy beans and brown rice here I come!
UC since '05 and DX with chronic Lyme's in 2010, (get tested by Igenix Lab) You have to be your own advocate in your health. 5-ASA no remission. Humira and Imuran didn't work. Asacol.

Posted By : aguywithuc - 4/15/2013 5:20 PM
StealthGuardian said...
Luckily for us there are many kinds of resistant starches. If one doesn't agree with our colon, then perhaps it's best to try another

Coming from an Indian family, I think the key for Indians not getting IBD (at least in the previous generations) was emphasis on lentils, rotis and ghee in their diets - all pecursors to butyrate production in the colon. Not to mention the abundance of anti-inflammatory foods like spinach, ginger, turmeric, etc.

I'm trying whole wheat flour and potatoes to see if this thing works out for me.


I agree. I am going back to RS1, legumes and green bananas. Will ramp up RS3 the cooked, cooled and stored pasta and potatos.

RS2 started out fine saturday with HI-MAIZE which claims there are no side effects from high doses. I think the goal is 20-30 grams of total fiber per day like olther nations where our average is 3 grams. However I went for 30 grams of RS and probably got more like 40 grams. The HI-MAIZE dumped into flavored water just did not work out as today after 48 hours of RS2 I felt like I had UC again and halted the experiment.

Back to what works for me RS1 ( legumes, green bananas ) and RS3 ( pasta, potatoes, cooked-cooled-stored for a period of time cold ).

When I did that I felt like I was cured. I will keep baking by substituting flour with 25% HI-MAIZE but the lazy approach of just dumping the white powder into every drink does not workout and does not suprise me. Had to try to know if it was going to be that easy.

Posted By : Old Mike - 4/15/2013 5:38 PM
Interesting,perhaps too much of a good thing,butyrate downregulates SERT.
A question might be can you have too much butyrate.
Another possible,if too much bacteria food,increasing their numbers, and your colon cannot handle it yet.
Aguy: You might want to read my last post in the SERT/Neurotransmitter thread I am finding stuff that is amazing,about butyrate,insulin,mucus,SERT,FAS,insulin resistance,transmitters.
Old Mike

Post Edited (Old Mike) : 4/15/2013 6:15:29 PM (GMT-6)


Posted By : protocolteck - 4/16/2013 11:26 AM

Aguy,

 

I have been following this thread closely and have ordered Sodium Butyrate from Amazon and Eden foods navy beans from Vitacost.com.  My question is how do you eat the green bananas?  I know this might be a stupid question but I can’t even get the skin off a green banana.

 

I also ordered the 5 lb. bag of Hi Maize (which I now see didn’t agree with you)

 

 

Thanks and keep the great information on RS coming.

 

Protocolteck


Male, 45
1 Canasa daily
VSL#3 twice a day
SF/Spinach Diet started 3/11/2013
Ulcerative Proctitis since 2/2012 (Colonoscopy)
Been flaring since 1/2012
Gluten Free since 12/1/2012-went into remission for 1 month going GF then symptoms returned in full force 1/1/2013. I still remain GF for other reasons.
Very active Mountain runner and Crossfit enthusiast

Posted By : Guardian7 - 4/16/2013 12:56 PM
Here's the resistant starch segment on Dr.Oz; some very good tips in those videos: www.doctoroz.com/videos/resistant-starch-flour

protocolteck, it says you can boil the green bananas to get the skin off.

Post Edited (StealthGuardian) : 4/16/2013 1:08:28 PM (GMT-6)


Posted By : protocolteck - 4/16/2013 1:14 PM
Thanks, Stealth.  Im curious about how people on this RS diet are eating green bananas?  Boiling doesnt sound too yummy :)  Are there better and tastier ways to prepare them and still get the RS benefit?
Thanks!
Protocolteck

Male, 45
1 Canasa daily
VSL#3 twice a day
SF/Spinach Diet started 3/11/2013
Ulcerative Proctitis since 2/2012 (Colonoscopy)
Been flaring since 1/2012
Gluten Free since 12/1/2012-went into remission for 1 month going GF then symptoms returned in full force 1/1/2013. I still remain GF for other reasons.
Very active Mountain runner and Crossfit enthusiast

Posted By : Guardian7 - 4/16/2013 1:26 PM
IMO, bananas are a bit too drastic for me given my current flare. The video mentions using the banana as a puree after boiling it as one method.

I'm trying whole wheat flour rotis, whole grain pasta (al dente perfection) and cooled potatoes at the moment to see if actually ends up healing my colon - it turns out that I can tolerate these foods to some degree. I may add in green bananas @ some point.

Posted By : aguywithuc - 4/16/2013 4:01 PM
StealthGuardian said...
IMO, bananas are a bit too drastic for me given my current flare. The video mentions using the banana as a puree after boiling it as one method.

I'm trying whole wheat flour rotis, whole grain pasta (al dente perfection) and cooled potatoes at the moment to see if actually ends up healing my colon - it turns out that I can tolerate these foods to some degree. I may add in green bananas @ some point.


I am back on the two dollar can of Navy beans that say they are soaked and rinsed mentioned in earlier posts, Edens I think. The legumes really help me a lot and this brand does not cause flatulance any chance you can try legumes ?

Remember with pasta and potatos you have to cook,cool and store for a period of time.

Posted By : aguywithuc - 4/16/2013 4:04 PM
protocolteck said...
Aguy,<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />



I have been following this thread closely and have ordered Sodium Butyrate from Amazon and Eden foods navy beans from Vitacost.com.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> My question is how do you eat the green bananas?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> I know this might be a stupid question but I can’t even get the skin off a green banana.

Protocolteck


Maybe mine are not green enough. SCD says to only eat bananas with 'no green' on them. So I figured green and yellow was a decent target, maybe I am wrong and they are supposed to be 100% green. Eating one now and it has green stripes the entire length but gold appears between the stripes.

Posted By : Old Mike - 4/16/2013 4:31 PM
I am not getting any significant gas from regular old canned stoe brand great northern beans,cant actually find navy,unless they are really the same,navy are perhaps dried. Anyhow I put them into a collander and rinse well then refrigerate,but I am only eating about 2 table spoons a day right now,trying to work up to higher levels,without a gas attack.
Old Mike

Post Edited (Old Mike) : 4/16/2013 5:00:33 PM (GMT-6)


Posted By : Guardian7 - 4/16/2013 4:57 PM
aguywithuc said...
StealthGuardian said...
IMO, bananas are a bit too drastic for me given my current flare. The video mentions using the banana as a puree after boiling it as one method.

I'm trying whole wheat flour rotis, whole grain pasta (al dente perfection) and cooled potatoes at the moment to see if actually ends up healing my colon - it turns out that I can tolerate these foods to some degree. I may add in green bananas @ some point.


I am back on the two dollar can of Navy beans that say they are soaked and rinsed mentioned in earlier posts, Edens I think. The legumes really help me a lot and this brand does not cause flatulance any chance you can try legumes ?

Remember with pasta and potatos you have to cook,cool and store for a period of time.


Going to order Eden navy beans from amazon and start slowly. Will update on progress. So far I had one lose bowel movement with minor blood this morning, which is an improvement from before, was getting 2-3 with moderate blood and strong cramping. Then again, my caloric intake and weight have been so low that I need to start eating more anyways. Want to mention that I am taking 10 mg of pred as well, switched from uceris since it wasn't doing anything. Will wean to 5 mg if things continue to go well.

As for the whole grain - I have these frozen whole grain rotis from the indian store. They've been stored in the fridge for some time and I warm it up in the microwave for a few seconds so it's edible. I *hope* I'm getting some resistant starch benefit out of it. The pasta is whole grain flour pasta with al dente perfection (like the one shown on Dr.Oz). I just need to under cook it a bit more so more of it reaches my colon to ferment. Usually the foods I'm getting are from the frozen section so I assume they've been stored for some time - I just warm it up and sometimes keep it in the fridge to cool and then eat it.

Post Edited (StealthGuardian) : 4/16/2013 5:04:04 PM (GMT-6)


Posted By : protocolteck - 4/16/2013 5:15 PM
Hey Stealth,

Eden Navy Beans from Vitacost.com MUCH cheaper than Amazon. I just ordered 18 15/oz cans for $29 U.S. I saw Amazon was 12 15/oz cans for $40 U.S.

Just a FYI.
Male, 45
1 Canasa daily
VSL#3 twice a day
SF/Spinach Diet started 3/11/2013
Ulcerative Proctitis since 2/2012 (Colonoscopy)
Been flaring since 1/2012
Gluten Free since 12/1/2012-went into remission for 1 month going GF then symptoms returned in full force 1/1/2013. I still remain GF for other reasons.
Very active Mountain runner and Crossfit enthusiast

Posted By : aguywithuc - 4/16/2013 11:25 PM
Old Mike said...
I am not getting any significant gas from regular old canned stoe brand great northern beans,cant actually find navy,unless they are really the same,navy are perhaps dried. Anyhow I put them into a collander and rinse well then refrigerate,but I am only eating about 2 table spoons a day right now,trying to work up to higher levels,without a gas attack.
Old Mike


I hope the legumes are as beneficial to you guys as they were to me. Taper was fast - confidence was high. I had a 1/2 can of the Edens Navy beans last night and have recovered from the HI-Maize experiment well. No gas with Edens. The other brand at the regular grocer was HARD TO FIND I paced the aisle twice then found just two rows of Navy sandwiched in between everything else. However I am going to try kidney beans too because it ranked high in RS too and mom used to make a sweet chili with kidney beans and they never bothered me, for some reason my entire adult life has been bean-free which was a mistake. I never had UC when I was younger. Got it in 2006 around age 41. Too many years of all protein no beans.

Got the drink powder today and it contains fibersol-2 instead of Hi-Maize and maybe it will work better in my system.

PASTA: I got around to boiling some and cooled in the fridge for 'a period of time' and the rest will go overnight. I see from some comments that cooking to al dente is important and that is just the way I like it. Thanks for posting that tip.

Post Edited (aguywithuc) : 4/16/2013 11:45:10 PM (GMT-6)


Posted By : therearemiracles - 4/17/2013 7:36 AM
Also Dr. Oz doctor they were interviewing said whole grain bread, much more fiber. Can anyone recommend a good whole grain bread?
 
They also said eat everything at room temp, not warm or hot I do believe.
 
I had brown rice for breakfast last two days, navy beans ( I soaked overnight and boiled in the am)  last night (incorporating ham, chicken or whatever protien too) so I'm trying this. Today my poop didn't stink as bad as it has in the past mornings, maybe the good bacteria are growing?
 
Yesterday was a day from heck for me, I bleed all day long and went to the bathroom probably 50 times!
 
Today this morning not as bad. Off Uceris back on asacol and canasa though and trying this addition of RS foods.
 
They said too this RS foods will pass the small intestine and go to the large intestine where there is bulking up and feeding good bacteria. White bread turns right into sugar in the small intestine and basically is SUGAR water when it reaches the bowel, not good and feeds the bad bacteria.
 
 
I stayed away from all this stuff (RS foods) too because I read veggies are the way to go, well maybe not anymore. Man I pray this is a positive result for my UC!
 WHen my UC started I was living on salads not fiber.
UC since '05 and DX with chronic Lyme's in 2010, (get tested by Igenix Lab) You have to be your own advocate in your health. 5-ASA no remission. Humira and Imuran didn't work. Asacol.

Posted By : protocolteck - 4/17/2013 10:29 AM
aguy,

What exactly happened with you and the Hi-Maize? I noticed your comments were that it did not work at all. I have an order en route from Amazon and now a bit concerned that is actually made things worse for you. Was it just how it affected you or is it bad for us with UC/UP, etc ?

Thanks.
Male, 45
1 Canasa daily
VSL#3 twice a day
SF/Spinach Diet started 3/11/2013
Ulcerative Proctitis since 2/2012 (Colonoscopy)
Been flaring since 1/2012
Gluten Free since 12/1/2012-went into remission for 1 month going GF then symptoms returned in full force 1/1/2013. I still remain GF for other reasons.
Very active Mountain runner and Crossfit enthusiast

Posted By : Old Mike - 4/17/2013 11:37 AM
In this study they used hmaze and did not get extra butyrate.
Just guessing we want the other types for butyrate.
Did get some gas today from beans,not bad but gas.
Old Mike
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9440388

Post Edited (Old Mike) : 4/17/2013 12:38:58 PM (GMT-6)


Posted By : protocolteck - 4/17/2013 12:02 PM
Do you just need to cook/boil Brown Rice and/or pasta and then let it cool to room temp (10-15 minutes) or do you need to store it in the fridge overnight etc to get full RS benefit?.

Thanks.
Male, 45
1 Canasa daily
VSL#3 twice a day
SF/Spinach Diet started 3/11/2013
Ulcerative Proctitis since 2/2012 (Colonoscopy)
Been flaring since 1/2012
Gluten Free since 12/1/2012-went into remission for 1 month going GF then symptoms returned in full force 1/1/2013. I still remain GF for other reasons.
Very active Mountain runner and Crossfit enthusiast

Posted By : aguywithuc - 4/17/2013 1:54 PM
Old Mike said...
In this study they used hmaze and did not get extra butyrate.Just guessing we want the other types for butyrate.
Did get some gas today from beans,not bad but gas.
Old Mike
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9440388


That is good to know, I figured anything THAT processed would not be as beneficial as 'food' and would not have made the purchase but it was cheap so nothing ventured...

Posted By : aguywithuc - 4/17/2013 1:57 PM
therearemiracles said...
Man I pray this is a positive result for my UC!
WHen my UC started I was living on salads not fiber.


When I tapered I also used Raw Adrenals. I am off that too. Until today I used licorice root which I believe is only to be used when your off prednisone and I am going to cut back on that now.

Back on track now with under a can of Edens Navy beans, on the pasta and potato bandwagon too as it is hard to get all your RS from legumes.

Posted By : aguywithuc - 4/17/2013 2:00 PM
protocolteck said...
Do you just need to cook/boil Brown Rice and/or pasta and then let it cool to room temp (10-15 minutes) or do you need to store it in the fridge overnight etc to get full RS benefit?.

Thanks.


I have a story written back a few pages where I got a ban of restaurant pasta and put it in fridge. I snacked out of it all week. I always improved but when I asked the chef which pasta and made my own it was no good at all.

1) I ate it hot
2) It was not 'stored' at a cool temp

seems the longer it is cooled the more it converts to RS, up to a point of course, but then good to just keep cooled until you eat it.

HI-MAIZE sounded great, and I was fine first 24 hours but I went hog wild dumping it raw into flavored water etc and it seemed like an almost allergic reaction to that much HI-MAIZE. Probably fine as flour substitute but NOT the BACKBONE of an RS diet for sure.

No more than 25% HI-MAIZE to 75% flour.

I tried to report that failed experiment right away so nobody would spend money on it, of course it may work for you so try baking with it or using in a real smoothie that has actual food. I was putting it into flavored water basically.

I am not on any UC meds, on 7.5mg of coumadin/warfarin daily
I supplement now with p-seed powder and more when off blood thinners.

I have stopped all protein powders except Pure Green Protein.
Once in a while oats-n-whey.

Post Edited (aguywithuc) : 4/17/2013 2:14:50 PM (GMT-6)


Posted By : protocolteck - 4/17/2013 2:17 PM
aguywithuc said...
protocolteck said...
Do you just need to cook/boil Brown Rice and/or pasta and then let it cool to room temp (10-15 minutes) or do you need to store it in the fridge overnight etc to get full RS benefit?.

Thanks.


I have a story written back a few pages where I got a ban of restaurant pasta and put it in fridge. I snacked out of it all week. I always improved but when I asked the chef which pasta and made my own it was no good at all.

1) I ate it hot
2) It was not 'stored' at a cool temp

seems the longer it is cooled the more it converts to RS, up to a point of course, but then good to just keep cooled until you eat it.

HI-MAIZE sounded great, and I was fine first 24 hours but I went hog wild dumping it raw into flavored water etc and it seemed like an almost allergic reaction to that much HI-MAIZE. Probably fine as flour substitute but NOT the BACKBONE of an RS diet for sure.

I tried to report that failed experiment right away so nobody would spend money on it, of course it may work for you so try baking with it or using in a real smoothie that has actual food. I was putting it into flavored water basically.




Thanks, aguy. My Sodium Butyrate will be here today so I will start incorporating it into my diet. I have been having EXCELLENT results ( 8 days totally free of B+M), so far with fresh, organic Spinach sautéed with squash and eating SF seeds and 2 tsp's of tapioca flour daily. My Navy beans will be here later this week and will be adding cold brown rice/pasta.

Thanks.
Male, 45
1 Canasa daily
VSL#3 twice a day
SF/Spinach Diet started 3/11/2013. Added Resistant Starch 4/14/2013.
Ulcerative Proctitis since 2/2012 (Colonoscopy)
Been flaring since 1/2012
Gluten Free since 12/1/2012-went into remission for 1 month going GF then symptoms returned in full force 1/1/2013. I still remain GF for other reasons.
Mountain Runner and Level 1 Crossfit Athlete

Posted By : aguywithuc - 4/17/2013 2:24 PM
protocolteck said...
I have been having EXCELLENT results ( 8 days totally free of B+M), so far with fresh, organic Spinach sautéed with squash and eating SF seeds and 2 tsp's of tapioca flour daily. My Navy beans will be here later this week and will be adding cold brown rice/pasta.

Thanks.


Sauteeing with Olive Oil ? What kind of squash we are going to grocer here in a few minutes ?

Posted By : protocolteck - 4/17/2013 2:35 PM
Yes, Organic Olive oil. I use both Yellow and Zucchini (Mexican squash), sautee for about 10-12 minutes or until soft then add Spinach for the last 5 minutes as it does not take long to shrink considerably.
Male, 45
1 Canasa daily
VSL#3 twice a day
SF/Spinach Diet started 3/11/2013. Added Resistant Starch 4/14/2013.
Ulcerative Proctitis since 2/2012 (Colonoscopy)
Been flaring since 1/2012
Gluten Free since 12/1/2012-went into remission for 1 month going GF then symptoms returned in full force 1/1/2013. I still remain GF for other reasons.
Mountain Runner and Level 1 Crossfit Athlete

Posted By : protocolteck - 4/19/2013 10:46 AM
Things are still going well. I received my Hi Maize yesterday and will be implementing it with my morning protein shake with Sodium Butyrate and L-Glutamine. I will not be using as much as "aguy" did (I am using 2 tbspns-the same amount as I used for Tapioca Flour)) as I think he may have had a bit much initially when he had a bad reaction.

IMO, the resistant starch is helping along with Spinach and SF seed powder/butter.

Have a great weekend.
Male, 45
1 Canasa daily
VSL#3 twice a day
SF/Spinach Diet started 3/11/2013. Added Resistant Starch 4/14/2013.
Ulcerative Proctitis since 2/2012 (Colonoscopy)
Been flaring since 1/2012
Gluten Free since 12/1/2012-went into remission for 1 month going GF then symptoms returned in full force 1/1/2013. I still remain GF for other reasons.
Mountain Runner and Level 1 Crossfit Athlete

Posted By : DanthaMan - 4/19/2013 11:35 AM
FWIW, I did the exact same Hi-Maize back in July 2009 and didnt have the desired changes I wanted. I think like aguy said you can over do it by taking to much. I didnt reorder so it was a failed experiment for me. The sodium butyrate is working well going to eat the bean tonight and see if that further helps.
ACES+Zinc
Heathers Peppermint Oil
Curamed
Vitamin K Complex
Psyllium Seed/Slippery Elm
Sodium Butyrate.


UC since 2001, 32 year old male. Finding relief with no gluten/diary. Organic fruits/veggies/meat.

Posted By : protocolteck - 4/19/2013 11:58 AM
I hear you, DanthaMan and will be monitoring the Hi Maize closely. I just wanted to change up the Tapioca Flour for a few days until my navy beans show up next week. I have been having green tip Banana's and think they are very helpful for me to eat , as well.

I strongly believe the Spinach+SF seed powder/butter+resistant starch+Sodium Butyrate is a very strong combination and has effectively (so far) shut down all B+M with ZERO side effects. Also, I simply feel better with more energy.

Best to all.
Male, 45
1 Canasa daily
VSL#3 twice a day
SF/Spinach Diet started 3/11/2013. Added Resistant Starch 4/14/2013.
Ulcerative Proctitis since 2/2012
Been flaring since 1/2012
Gluten Free since 12/1/2012-went into remission for 1 month going GF then symptoms returned in full force 1/1/2013. I still remain GF for other reasons.
Mountain Runner and Level 1 Crossfit Athlete
Sodium Butyrate

Posted By : Old Mike - 4/28/2013 9:32 AM
Not sure if this was posted before thread large.
But anyway it would seem that you might want to eat your RS/beans when you eat meat,
or other high protein foods. This wil help shift the protein fermentation in the colon and its nasty byproducts.
 
Old Mike
also looks like it might take about 4 weeks to make changes.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15287679

Post Edited (Old Mike) : 4/28/2013 9:40:54 AM (GMT-6)


Posted By : London Lurker - 4/28/2013 3:27 PM
Thanks for posting Mike, hadn't seen them before.
Proctitis 1984
Pan Colitis 1988
No major flare ups since, many well years between mild to moderate flares, some years without meds
No special diet other than low fibre and rare alcohol
Currently Mezavant XL x 2 per day
Salofalk Enema x 1 per day
B complex sublingual
Vit D (ceased K2)
Probiotics sometimes - started Mutaflor, VSL#3 March '13, good results so far

March '13 10 days on Flagyl

Posted By : Old Mike - 4/28/2013 5:37 PM
Here is another study where even normal people mal digest lots of protein into the colon.
Excess protein makes it worse.  I can imaine if your small intestine is not working real well then you are dumping extra over and above normal people.
Old Mike

Posted By : aguywithuc - 4/29/2013 3:57 PM
Old Mike said...
Here is another study where even normal people mal digest lots of protein into the colon.Excess protein makes it worse. I can imaine if your small intestine is not working real well then you are dumping extra over and above normal people.
Old Mike
http://ajpgi.physiology.org/content/277/5/G935.full


Correct. I posted one study showing high protein thinned the intestinal mucosa, while RS thickened it.

Now RS all the time is kinda starchy so I was still dealing with blubber from prednisone and decided to increase protein. The RS healed up so much that I am fine on the right protein. Let me explain I took $200 in labs from directabs.com 10 lab bundle and showed my GP the ferritin is 40-400 and I am a lowly 20 and will need more iron infusions if we dont get this right. He said forget about the pills or greens eat dark chicken, eggs and get an iron skillet. Well out with the chicken breasts because my guts love the dark meat and it should help with the iron. Fat going away from pred now ( woot ! ).

So my perfect diet is dark meat and legumes and eggs. Salads here and there. Grass fed beef that is lean is also good.

Posted By : London Lurker - 4/30/2013 2:22 PM
How about chicken liver? That's really really high in iron isn't it? Need to be free range, organic though to avoid a liver full of nasties I'd have thought.

I am amazed at how I am tolerating small amounts of navy beans without gas, am also eating cooled potatoes and pasta (and a really easy thing to take to work for lunch) and eating smaller amounts of protein (when you actually look at the RDA for protein versus the amount we consume, we consume far too much of it). This together with the high dose probiotics and mesalazine enemas are doing really well for me. After 2 months of nasty D due to some sort of infection, I am so much better. Currently feeling a bit confused about kefir as I think I bleed a bit after it. Also managed to get some raw, non-pasteurised sauerkraut and am amazed to be tolerating that too in small amounts.
Proctitis 1984
Pan Colitis 1988
No major flare ups since, many well years between mild to moderate flares, some years without meds
No special diet other than low fibre and rare alcohol
Currently Mezavant XL x 2 per day
Salofalk Enema x 1 per day
B complex sublingual
Vit D (ceased K2)
Probiotics sometimes - started Mutaflor, VSL#3 March '13, good results so far

March '13 10 days on Flagyl

Posted By : Guardian7 - 5/1/2013 4:38 PM
Just ordered the sodium butyrate supplement that you guys linked from amazon. Will start it shortly, along with minor amounts of navy beans.

Posted By : Little Buddy - 5/2/2013 10:19 AM
I started taking sodium butyrate (600mg x 2, twice a day) about 3 days ago. I am pleasantly surprised by how much better I feel! Much less pain and blood, although the D persists.

The downside is the horrific smell (both when you take the pills and on the back-end). This morning I noticed some joint stiffness in my fingers and hip - has anyone else noticed this side effect? This is the only medicine change I've made this week, so I have to think it's connected. Am a little worried that this is an untested supplement and I don't know if I'm mixing it with other meds in a dangerous way. Any thoughts?
38 YO Dx 9/2009 with left-side UC. Last scope 11/12 downgraded to UP.
Flare since 1/13. Started Uceris 3/2 and Rowasa. Lialda x 4.
Alt Treatments: Folic Acid, Calcium, Vitamin D, Olive Oil, Melatonin, Align, Zyrtec,
Diet = Spinach + SF + Resistant Starches
New: addded Sunflower Lecithin, Zinc and Sodium Butyrate 3/13.

Posted By : TheAnswersYouSeek - 5/2/2013 10:46 AM
Little Buddy, try doing a search online regaurding sodium butyrate. There are many many studies and infact, if you just read the ones in this thread there is a plethora of info. It has been shown to be very safe.

If you think you are having a reaction, obviously stop or cut back? No drug is good for everyone. Someone will have a reaction to everything.. you have to be in your own body and heed it.. but at the same time our bodies, atleast mine, do alot of really funky things that arent always connected to the things I think they are. If Im worried that something is going to be bad for me.. it usually is. So you should heed worry if you have done your research, think its a valid worry and you are having a physical response that you think is linked.
Current: No Dairy, Sugar, Wheat.. Olive leaf (20% Oleuoropein), NA-Cysteine, Triphalia, methylation pathway support, sodium butyrate, anantamul, Blis K12, VSL#3, PB8, Proteolytic enzymes, herbal antiviral/microbal protocol
My story www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=38&m=2644147

Posted By : Little Buddy - 5/2/2013 11:43 AM
Thanks so much for the quick response! It's not something I'm Really worried about, I just thought I'd canvas the crowd to see if I was the only one. I have read a lot of the research papers on this thread and on the NIH site about the efficacy of sodium butyrate (and am living the benefit); but there don't seem to be any studies about the ST /LT safety of oral supplementation, which implies some risk.

Today I am happy to make the trade off - better belly for some risk and stiff fingers - after weeks of feeling like garbage. The most exciting thing so far: I am hungry! I haven't felt any hunger for at least 2 weeks, it's just great and I'm thrilled to have a course of action that seems to have a real effect.
38 YO Dx 9/2009 with left-side UC. Last scope 11/12 downgraded to UP.
Flare since 1/13. Started Uceris 3/2 and Rowasa. Lialda x 4.
Alt Treatments: Folic Acid, Calcium, Vitamin D, Olive Oil, Melatonin, Align, Zyrtec,
Diet = Spinach + SF + Resistant Starches
New: addded Sunflower Lecithin, Zinc and Sodium Butyrate 3/13.

Posted By : protocolteck - 5/2/2013 12:05 PM
There does not seem to be many (if any) bad side effects that I can see from the data I have seen, however doesnt imply it is safe for everyone , all the time.

I would look back over the last day or so and try and remember if you may have done something to strain your fingers and hip. It is more likely you did something physical to create the stiffness. Try adding L-Glutamine when you take your Sodium Butyrate as it supports muscle tissue and will get rid of your stiffness. That is why weightlifters use it-it lowers recovery time dramatically (and safely). L-Glutamine has been a godsend to this 45 year old fitness junkie.

Best...
Male, 45
No UC meds
VSL#3 2/day
SF/Spinach Diet started 3/11/2013. Added Resistant Starch 4/14/2013.
Ulcerative Proctitis since 2/2012
Remission since early April, 2013
Gluten Free since 12/1/2012-went into remission for 1 month going GF then symptoms returned on 1/1/2013. I still remain GF for other reasons.
Mountain Runner and Level 1 Crossfit Athlete
Sodium Butyrate
Vitamin E Suppositories

Posted By : Eph - 5/2/2013 12:41 PM
Little Buddy - are you taking 4 pills (2400mg) of Sodium Butylate per day?
Late 40s male
Diagnosed with ulcerative proctitis in 1988
Balsalazide (generic Colazal), 3g/2x day.
(lowered to 3g/1x day on 11/30/11)
2000IU Vit D3 daily.
Started LDN on 5/20/11 (4.5mg caps)
Started VSL#3DS (one sachet a day) on 6/28/11
Was symptom-free though 7/2011
Considering: Fecal transplant
Colonoscopy: 9/6/12, results: Ulcerative Proctitis still
Minor flare started 3/7/13

Posted By : TheAnswersYouSeek - 5/2/2013 12:50 PM
My dr has me taking 3000mg daily.
Current: No Dairy, Sugar, Wheat.. Olive leaf (20% Oleuoropein), NA-Cysteine, Triphalia, methylation pathway support, sodium butyrate, anantamul, Blis K12, VSL#3, PB8, Proteolytic enzymes, herbal antiviral/microbal protocol
My story www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=38&m=2644147

Posted By : Eph - 5/2/2013 12:54 PM
Your GI prescribed it??
Late 40s male
Diagnosed with ulcerative proctitis in 1988
Balsalazide (generic Colazal), 3g/2x day.
2000IU Vit D3 daily.
Started LDN on 5/20/11 (4.5mg caps)
Started VSL#3DS (one sachet a day) on 6/28/11
Was symptom-free though 7/2011
Minor flare started 3/7/13
Added: 1TBS Sunbutter, 600mg Sodium Butylate, and 2x Canasa/day and starting to feel better 5/1/13

Posted By : aguywithuc - 5/2/2013 1:14 PM
London Lurker said...
How about chicken liver? That's really really high in iron isn't it? Need to be free range, organic though to avoid a liver full of nasties I'd have thought.

I am amazed at how I am tolerating small amounts of navy beans without gas, am also eating cooled potatoes and pasta (and a really easy thing to take to work for lunch) and eating smaller amounts of protein (when you actually look at the RDA for protein versus the amount we consume, we consume far too much of it). This together with the high dose probiotics and mesalazine enemas are doing really well for me. After 2 months of nasty D due to some sort of infection, I am so much better. Currently feeling a bit confused about kefir as I think I bleed a bit after it. Also managed to get some raw, non-pasteurised sauerkraut and am amazed to be tolerating that too in small amounts.


Correct about the liver. I just am not ready to eat organs.

I actually took cooled pasta to work with me and will have a can of tuna in olive oil with it. I am really stumped how to eat cooled pasta. I would imagine its ok for it to warm to room temp, I mean its going to get to 98.6 as spoon as I consume it. But what do you put on it that is not hot, clearly hot spaghetti sauce is out...I am not much of a cook yet, still learning.

Thanks

Posted By : TheAnswersYouSeek - 5/2/2013 1:16 PM
He told me to take it, when and what doses.. it's not available by rx so he told me to buy it online.
Current: No Dairy, Sugar, Wheat.. Olive leaf (20% Oleuoropein), NA-Cysteine, Triphalia, methylation pathway support, sodium butyrate, anantamul, Blis K12, VSL#3, PB8, Proteolytic enzymes, herbal antiviral/microbal protocol
My story www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=38&m=2644147

Posted By : protocolteck - 5/2/2013 1:21 PM
Hey Aguy,

I have read that if you reheat that type of RS, you will lose significant value. Remember, Pasta salad is cold and very tasty :)
Male, 45
No UC meds
VSL#3 2/day
SF/Spinach Diet started 3/11/2013. Added Resistant Starch 4/14/2013.
Ulcerative Proctitis since 2/2012
Remission since early April, 2013
Gluten Free since 12/1/2012-went into remission for 1 month going GF then symptoms returned on 1/1/2013. I still remain GF for other reasons.
Mountain Runner and Level 1 Crossfit Athlete
Sodium Butyrate
Vitamin E Suppositories

Posted By : TheAnswersYouSeek - 5/2/2013 1:43 PM
I also should clarify, he is not a GI, he is a Immunologist/Rheumatologist who has helped me with my gut problems more then any GI has ;)
Current: No Dairy, Sugar, Wheat.. Olive leaf (20% Oleuoropein), NA-Cysteine, Triphalia, methylation pathway support, sodium butyrate, anantamul, Blis K12, VSL#3, PB8, Proteolytic enzymes, herbal antiviral/microbal protocol
My story www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=38&m=2644147

Posted By : Guardian7 - 5/2/2013 1:51 PM
I had success with cooked and cooled pasta a while back but I attributed it to chance or something -- never really knew it was the resistant starch thing. It really makes a lot of sense now. I'd probably be in remission now had I stuck with those "junk" foods.

I remember ordering tuscani pasta from pizza hut, storing it in the fridge and eating it cold the next day. I used to get the best bowel movements the day after. The pasta usually had semolina flour, which seems to be the standard if it isn't gluten free or whole grain. Even chef boyardee foods helped with bowel formation, which surprised me a bit since everyone calls those kind of foods unhealthy.

Post Edited (StealthGuardian) : 5/2/2013 1:54:28 PM (GMT-6)


Posted By : TheAnswersYouSeek - 5/2/2013 2:09 PM
They are unhealthy when your diet is made up predominantly of them. Probably not as healthy if you bring chef boy r dee every day for lunch, or eat tuscani pasta every dinner, or even a couple times a week.

But if your diet looks like this every day you probably arent eating the healthiest all around diet.


Everything in moderation, even moderation..

Except when you are coming outta a flare.. then it's war and unfortunately in war there are some casualties. ;)
Current: No Dairy, Sugar, Wheat.. Olive leaf (20% Oleuoropein), NA-Cysteine, Triphalia, methylation pathway support, sodium butyrate, anantamul, Blis K12, VSL#3, PB8, Proteolytic enzymes, herbal antiviral/microbal protocol
My story www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=38&m=2644147

Posted By : Guardian7 - 5/2/2013 4:34 PM
I agree, everything in moderation.

Posted By : aguywithuc - 5/2/2013 5:47 PM
protocolteck said...
Hey Aguy,

I have read that if you reheat that type of RS, you will lose significant value. Remember, Pasta salad is cold and very tasty :)


Not reheating just letting it rise to room temperature and if you think about it is going to get to 98.6 pretty quickly once you swallow it ;)

Sooo I think those temps are ok, but anything higher reverses the whole point in cooling it. That is why I am avoiding putting hot tomato sauce on it and asked for advice on preparing 'cold' pasta, cannot think of much I can do besides dumping my tuna-in-olive-oil on it today.

Posted By : aguywithuc - 5/2/2013 5:51 PM
PathogenKiller said...

Everything in moderation, even moderation..

Except when you are coming outta a flare.. then it's war and unfortunately in war there are some casualties. ;)


LOOOL !!!

Posted By : Little Buddy - 5/3/2013 5:30 PM
Yes I have been taking 2.4g per day. Maybe that's too much? What dose is everyone using?
38 YO Dx 9/2009 with left-side UC. Last scope 11/12 downgraded to UP.
Flare since 1/13. Started Uceris 3/2 and Rowasa. Lialda x 4.
Alt Treatments: Folic Acid, Calcium, Vitamin D, Olive Oil, Melatonin, Align, Zyrtec,
Diet = Spinach + SF + Resistant Starches
New: addded Sunflower Lecithin, Zinc and Sodium Butyrate 3/13.

Posted By : twiggs - 6/27/2013 9:48 AM
Why not just eat a semi green banana daily? It is not a bean and shouldnt cause gas. I am thinking this may be the easiest way to get some good RS without the winds! haha. I have been eating a banana daily for a while now but will try to have them greener than I have been. What do you all think? I found this list below. Seems semi green bananas are a great souce.
 
Examples of naturally-occurring resistant starch[8]
FoodServing SizeResistant Starch
(grams)
Banana, raw, slightly green1 medium, peeled4.7
High amylose RS2 corn resistant starch1 tablespoon (9.5 g)4.5
Oats, rolled1/4 cup, uncooked4.4
Green Peas, frozen1 cup, cooked4.0
White beans1/2 cup, cooked3.7
Lentils1/2 cup cooked2.5
Cold pasta1 cup1.9
Pearl barley1/2 cup cooked1.6
Cold potato1/2" diameter0.6 - 0.8
Oatmeal1 cup cooked0.5

Posted By : delta30 - 7/17/2013 11:49 PM
what about raw potato juice? is this count as resistant starch? I've read it's very helpful with UC

Posted By : Gonk - 7/19/2013 5:38 AM
I found this report: "The Resistant Starch Report" from Australia.

http://foodaust.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/Hi_Maize-supplement_web.pdf
43 Year Old Male,
First flare up in 1998, dx 2001
Asacol for first 10 years, now Lialda 4/day, plus Canasa and Rowasa as needed. LDN as of Feb 24, 2012. Started prednisone 40mg 7/9/13, stopped 7/18/13. Started Uceris 7/17/13.
Supplements include: Fish Oil, Psyllium, Bosswellia, Turmeric, Bromelain, Vitamins C, D, DHEA

Posted By : Rick123123 - 7/19/2013 7:58 AM
Hi, I was wondering if some one could tell me how to do the following as I dont have the book. For the SCD diet.

"Dried legumes must be prepared according to the instructions in the book, Breaking the Vicious Cycle"

Posted By : ewafromwarsaw - 7/19/2013 3:13 PM
Do u take sodium butyrate along with vsl3 or any other probiotics? One person on the Polish forum said that butyrate taken together with a probiotic (much less powerful than vsl) caused her a total "revolution" and she almost ended up in a hospital. She learned about butyrate in England and took it "illegally" as in Poland doctors are very much against all types of supplements. I'd be also very cautious about pectin because in our case it irritates the colon and cold food is more prone to develop bacterias.

Posted By : sean88 - 7/19/2013 4:01 PM
Rick,

Google "scd gas free soak" for details on preparing legumes.
Left side UC diagnosed 2009
SCD since March 2011
Meds - Colazal, Rowasa, Prednisone taper(currently @20mg)
Supplements - D 4000IU, Fish Oil, Multivitamin
Probiotics - VSL3 DS, SCD Yogurt, Kefir, Sauerkraut, Kimchi, 299v, L GG, BC30, L reuteri, L salivarius

Posted By : Rick123123 - 7/19/2013 7:06 PM
@Sean88

Does soaking them remove the starch? Or only the sugar?

Posted By : sean88 - 7/19/2013 8:21 PM
Look here.

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/legumes/nu00260

Gas-free soak. In a stockpot, place 1 pound of beans in 10 or more cups of boiling water. Boil for 2 to 3 minutes. Then cover and set aside overnight. The next day 75 to 90 percent of the indigestible sugars that cause gas will have dissolved into the soaking water.
Left side UC diagnosed 2009
SCD since March 2011
Meds - Colazal, Rowasa, Prednisone taper(currently @20mg)
Supplements - D 4000IU, Fish Oil, Multivitamin
Probiotics - VSL3 DS, SCD Yogurt, Kefir, Sauerkraut, Kimchi, 299v, L GG, BC30, L reuteri, L salivarius

Posted By : Conquer UC - 7/20/2013 5:36 AM
So anyone else experienced improvements on the RS diet?

What confuses me is if, say, UC is really bacterial/parasitis in nature then would something like RS alone be enough? Seems like it for you (aguywithuc).
26 yo Nutritionist
UC pancolitis dx April 2011 ~1 month after birth of my first child. Remission after a course of pred (hated s/e esp psychological ones!) .
Proctosigmoid flare Jan '12. End flare: Sept 2012. What helped? Prayer (lots) + Paleo and TCM diet, vit E & kefir grain enemas, Isatis cooling, Clipper, acupuncture, NZ colostrum, squatting, psyllium seed.

Posted By : Gonk - 7/20/2013 7:21 AM
After reading the Australian report, it looks to me like there really are very few decent sources of RS and that it would be very difficult to consume the requisite amount of RS through regular foods like beans and breads on a daily basis.
Unmodified potato starch looks to me like the most economical and efficient way to get RS in any quantity.
43 Year Old Male,
First flare up in 1998, dx 2001
Asacol for first 10 years, now Lialda 4/day, plus Canasa and Rowasa as needed. LDN as of Feb 24, 2012. Started prednisone 40mg 7/9/13, stopped 7/18/13. Started Uceris 7/17/13.
Supplements include: Fish Oil, Psyllium, Bosswellia, Turmeric, Bromelain, Vitamins C, D, DHEA

Posted By : theHorse - 7/20/2013 10:28 AM
Hi guys. Interesting topic. Have you seen the information over at Free The Animal. It isn't specific to colitis or IBD but there has been some interesting experimentation with RS and it seems supplementing with a cheapish raw potato starch powder could be a good way to go.

I think this stems from diabetics trying to find carb sources that don't spike blood sugar but there is some really interesting research and n=1 information. Here's a few links:

http://freetheanimal.com/2013/06/resistant-starch-now-were-getting-somewhere-and-talking-crap-too.html

http://freetheanimal.com/2013/06/resistant-starch-now-we%e2%80%99re-getting-somewhere-part-2-35-links-to-research.html

http://freetheanimal.com/2013/06/resistant-starch-an-overall-primer-with-references.html

Be sure to read some of the comments too.

Posted By : aguywithuc - 7/20/2013 10:47 AM
Gonk said...
After reading the Australian report, it looks to me like there really are very few decent sources of RS


Agree

Gonk said...
it would be very difficult to consume the requisite amount of RS through regular foods like beans and breads on a daily basis.


Disagree.

Last month an Irish team proved Vitamin A controls cytokines turning off inflammatory cytokines and turning on the healing cytokines.

www.tcd.ie/Communications/news/pressreleases/pressRelease.php?headerid=3128&pressReleaseArchive=2013

So I constantly make chili which is high in Vitamin A and include RS Navy beans.

1 lb grass fed beef
chopped cabbage
chopped spinach
chopped brocolis
cook beef and steam/boil veggies
combine with packet of lowry's chili
Add 1-2 cans of Navy beans

Kuner's Navy Beans

www.shopwell.com/kuners-navy-beans/canned-beans/p/7227313830?f=sr&nr=4482&sp=620

My daughter and I love it and I eat it every day which allows me to eat all kinds of junk food I have not eaten in 10 years. Choco ice cream, cherry coke, donuts its crazy. Prednisone is part of the reason why so as I taper off prednisone all the 'cheat' foods will also be tapered off.

1 .89 cent can of Navy Beans per day, some days just half a can is all it takes.

Down to 5mg prednisone from 70mg 7 weeks ago and I am also taking blood thinner coumadin but have had no blood since resuming RS diet 7 weeks ago.

Not going off the RS diet again.

Posted By : Conquer UC - 7/20/2013 4:38 PM
Hey Aguy: glad you are doing so well!
So how many cans of navy beans would you say you need to eat per day? Divided over how many doses or can it all be eaten at once?
26 yo Nutritionist
UC pancolitis dx April 2011 ~1 month after birth of my first child. Remission after a course of pred (hated s/e esp psychological ones!) .
Proctosigmoid flare Jan '12. End flare: Sept 2012. What helped? Prayer (lots) + Paleo and TCM diet, vit E & kefir grain enemas, Isatis cooling, Clipper, acupuncture, NZ colostrum, squatting, psyllium seed.

Posted By : aguywithuc - 7/20/2013 4:53 PM
Conquer UC said...
Hey Aguy: glad you are doing so well!
So how many cans of navy beans would you say you need to eat per day? Divided over how many doses or can it all be eaten at once?


The first time I was basically eating the beans alone or with butter and would wolf down half a can to a full can.

I got gassy. But this time ZERO gas.

When I quit RS I flared. Ever since then I have been applying VSL3 and Walgreens probiotic I have had no gas but I also eat them with other foods.

I ran out of both probiotics weeks ago but am still not gassy at all.

My favorite is the chili. Good for Vitamin A to control inflammation and has spinach in it and good amount of protein.

I make a big batch then I put the leftovers in little bowls and maybe one or two big bowls. Saran wrap and load into fridge for quick meals. Because warm beans still retain high RS I just nuke the bowl for 1 minute. I stopped the added cheddar/swiss because I am bodybuilding now that pred is exiting my life.

I normally have either a little bit of the chili with eggs 1-2 over hard at breakfast and a full portion of chili at work or during the evening at home.

I think there are days I have zero but most days probably 1/2 a can TOTAL and now nearing pred-zero I am kicking it up a notch trying to get a full can per day TOTAL.

Greenish bananas now and then and cold pasta now and then but Kuners Navy Beans handles my UC completely
- No urgency
- No blood

"Researchers at the University of Colorado Denver summarize these benefits in a review paper in the current issue of the journal Current Opinion in Gastroenterology."

RS can help:

    1-Kill precancerous polyps in the colon
    2-Prevent diabetes by improving insulin sensitivity and regulating blood sugar
    3-Maintain healthy body weight
    4-Reduce inflammation
    5-Prevent or treat inflammatory bowel disease
    6-Help promote the growth of beneficial bacteria in the gut

www.livescience.com/27515-resistant-starch-health-benefits.html

Post Edited (aguywithuc) : 7/20/2013 4:56:38 PM (GMT-6)


Posted By : Conquer UC - 7/20/2013 5:16 PM
Great! Maybe i should give it a go. Do let us know if you find that the beans help you cheat on food more after you quit pred.

I take psyllium seed powder, does this have RS in it? I remember you mentioning that it does but need to check...because i would rather just take psyllium seed powder or increase it if i feel symptoms coming on. But how much of it would equate half a can of navy beans?
26 yo Nutritionist
UC pancolitis dx April 2011 ~1 month after birth of my first child. Remission after a course of pred (hated s/e esp psychological ones!) .
Proctosigmoid flare Jan '12. End flare: Sept 2012. What helped? Prayer (lots) + Paleo and TCM diet, vit E & kefir grain enemas, Isatis cooling, Clipper, acupuncture, NZ colostrum, squatting, psyllium seed.

Posted By : aguywithuc - 7/20/2013 7:12 PM
Conquer UC said...
Great! Maybe i should give it a go. Do let us know if you find that the beans help you cheat on food more after you quit pred.

I take psyllium seed powder, does this have RS in it? I remember you mentioning that it does but need to check...because i would rather just take psyllium seed powder or increase it if i feel symptoms coming on. But how much of it would equate half a can of navy beans?


P-seed powder converts to SCFA butyrate, RS does as well but RS has all 6 of the health benefits I posted.

Normally 5mg prednisone requires strict adherence to SCD. But I am eating lots of yogurt with sugar in it and several times a day make smoothies with Odwalla C-monster and welches passion juice both of which are loaded with sugar and corn syrup. I start my day with almond poppy muffin and coffee and if downtown I also get a big apple fritter donut from 7-11. Been on pred many times but never at dirty like this, trying to clean it up to get my abs back and in general sugar inhibits muscle building. Protein going into smoothies and watering them down to increase hydration along with all the calories. The only thing I stopped was lactose free Bryers ice cream. Oh and still drinking cherry coke which is pure insanity while going to pred-zero oh it all to RS. Adding in 5-HTP since it stimulates adrenals. Just learned that today.

Post Edited (aguywithuc) : 7/20/2013 7:15:55 PM (GMT-6)


Posted By : matrices - 7/21/2013 12:32 AM
Psyllium seed powder is awful to consume all around - taste, texture - but the actual seeds aren't bad at all, mixed into yogurt.

Meanwhile: anyone else here besides aguy (1) tried RS and (2) seen results?

Post Edited (matrices) : 7/21/2013 8:47:06 AM (GMT-6)


Posted By : aguywithuc - 7/21/2013 9:54 AM
matrices said...
Psyllium seed powder is awful to consume all around - taste, texture - but the actual seeds aren't bad at all, mixed into yogurt.

Meanwhile: anyone else here besides aguy (1) tried RS and (2) seen results?


I stopped p-seed powder when I found RS for that reason.


www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10647628

Dietary resistant starch and chronic inflammatory bowel diseases.

These studies were performed to test the benefit of resistant starch on ulcerative colitis via prebiotic and butyrate effects. Butyrate, propionate, and acetate are produced in the colon of mammals as a result of microbial fermentation of resistant starch and other dietary fibers. Butyrate plays an important role in the colonic mucosal growth and epithelial proliferation. A reduction in the colonic butyrate level induces chronic mucosal atrophy. Short-chain fatty acid enemas increase mucosal generation, crypt length, and DNA content of the colonocytes. They also ameliorate symptoms of ulcerative colitis in human patients and rats injected with trinitrobenzene sulfonic acid (TNBS). Butyrate, and also to a lesser degree propionate, are substrates for the aerobic energy metabolism, and trophic factors of the colonocytes. Adverse butyrate effects occur in normal and neoplastic colonic cells. In normal cells, butyrate induces proliferation at the crypt base, while inhibiting proliferation at the crypt surface. In neoplastic cells, butyrate inhibits DNA synthesis and arrests cell growth in the G1 phase of the cell cycle. The improvement of the TNBS-induced colonic inflammation occurred earlier in the resistant starch (RS)-fed rats than in the RS-free group. This benefit coincided with activation of colonic epithelial cell proliferation and the subsequent restoration of apoptosis. The noncollagenous basement membrane protein laminin was regenerated initially in the RS-fed group, demonstrating what could be a considered lower damage to the intestinal barrier function. The calculation of intestinal short-chain fatty acid absorption confirmed this conclusion. The uptake of short-chain fatty acids in the colon is strongly inhibited in the RS-free group, but only slightly reduced in the animals fed with RS. Additionally, RS enhanced the growth of intestinal bacteria assumed to promote health. Further studies involving patients suffering from ulcerative colitis are necessary to determine the importance of RS in the therapy of a number of intestinal diseases and the maintenance of health.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resistant_starch

Ulcerative colitis

Foods naturally rich in resistant starch may be beneficial in individuals with ulcerative colitis. One study presented at the 7th Congress of European Crohn’s and Colitis Organization (ECCO) meeting, Feb 16-18, 2012 in Barcelona, Spain found that resistant starch combined with wheat bran effectively treated ulcerative colitis.

www.ecco-ibd.eu/publications/congress-abstract-s/item/p208-abnorm.html

Abnormal fibre utilisation and gut transit in ulcerative colitis in remission: A potential new target for dietary intervention

Conclusions: Fibre utilisation in the gut of patients with UC in remission is impaired. High WB/RS supplementation enhanced fibre utilisation and normalised WGTT. As it is well tolerated, its corrective effect on fermentation and transit may translate into therapeutic benefits during remission in patients with UC.

Some people and some mice benefitted :

These studies were performed to test the benefit of resistant starch on ulcerative colitis via prebiotic and butyrate effects. Butyrate, propionate, and acetate are produced in the colon of mammals as a result of microbial fermentation of resistant starch and other dietary fibers. Butyrate plays an important role in the colonic mucosal growth and epithelial proliferation. A reduction in the colonic butyrate level induces chronic mucosal atrophy. Short-chain fatty acid enemas increase mucosal generation, crypt length, and DNA content of the colonocytes. They also ameliorate symptoms of ulcerative colitis in human patients and rats injected with trinitrobenzene sulfonic acid (TNBS). Butyrate, and also to a lesser degree propionate, are substrates for the aerobic energy metabolism, and trophic factors of the colonocytes. Adverse butyrate effects occur in normal and neoplastic colonic cells. In normal cells, butyrate induces proliferation at the crypt base, while inhibiting proliferation at the crypt surface. In neoplastic cells, butyrate inhibits DNA synthesis and arrests cell growth in the G1 phase of the cell cycle. The improvement of the TNBS-induced colonic inflammation occurred earlier in the resistant starch (RS)-fed rats than in the RS-free group. This benefit coincided with activation of colonic epithelial cell proliferation and the subsequent restoration of apoptosis. The noncollagenous basement membrane protein laminin was regenerated initially in the RS-fed group, demonstrating what could be a considered lower damage to the intestinal barrier function. The calculation of intestinal short-chain fatty acid absorption confirmed this conclusion. The uptake of short-chain fatty acids in the colon is strongly inhibited in the RS-free group, but only slightly reduced in the animals fed with RS. Additionally, RS enhanced the growth of intestinal bacteria assumed to promote health. Further studies involving patients suffering from ulcerative colitis are necessary to determine the importance of RS in the therapy of a number of intestinal diseases and the maintenance of health.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10647628

In Japan, these fiber-filled starches are already being used to treat ulcerative colitis, while in developing countries it’s used to remedy chronic bowel issues. New findings show that resistant starch can combat pre-cancerous cells and scientists in South China are using resistant starch to coat drugs for tailored cancer therapies, where they can target specific zones of the colon. “There is promising data leading to the treatment and prevention of colorectal cancer,”

More than you want to know..

physrev.physiology.org/content/81/3/1031.full.pdf

Post Edited (aguywithuc) : 7/21/2013 9:59:11 AM (GMT-6)


Posted By : imagardener2 - 7/21/2013 10:25 AM
Meanwhile: anyone else here besides aguy (1) tried RS and (2) seen results?

I've been adding white rice and potatoes into my diet after years of not eating them. My goal is multi: slower transit time, reduce # BM's, increase mucousal lining. The first two seem improved.

I've tried sodium butyrate supplement in the past with little effect I could see.

My challenge is to eat these foods (rice, potatoes) in a cold version since i love mashed potatoes. Going to try and make more potato salad and rice pudding and possible gluten-free bread pudding. My gut does not like beans, even home-soaked navy beans, so that's something for the future. I think it's the fiber in them that causes me problems and yet that's what is good about them haha.
Current diet=modified Paleo (sm amts of swiss cheese and some fruit OK)
In remission April 2010 after 10 years of UC with no remission ever
gluten-free (bleeding stopped) and dairy-free (less gas) started remission path+food diary
current meds=(9)Balsalazide+(2)Citrucel,(1) VSL#3 nightly
Rx meds have never worked for me except for mesalamine enema

Posted By : TheAnswersYouSeek - 7/21/2013 10:35 AM
Ima, did you take 3 grams a day?

I am a big believer in butyrate. I still keep my starches low, so I can't be a testament to that. When I do eat starches alot of them are resistant.

Posted By : aguywithuc - 7/21/2013 11:50 AM
imagardener2 said...
My gut does not like beans, even home-soaked navy beans, so that's something for the future.


Oh so sorry to hear that. Cold potatoes, cold pasta I enjoy I just seem to get results faster from the beans. Now I think a full can is too much as I had gas last night yet had none consuming 1/4 to 1/2 can per day. It might mean you could try laughably small amounts of navy beans and see if your system begins to adjust - like 5 beans per day no more.

Posted By : imagardener2 - 7/21/2013 12:12 PM
aguywithuc said...
imagardener2 said...
My gut does not like beans, even home-soaked navy beans, so that's something for the future.


Oh so sorry to hear that. Cold potatoes, cold pasta I enjoy I just seem to get results faster from the beans. Now I think a full can is too much as I had gas last night yet had none consuming 1/4 to 1/2 can per day. It might mean you could try laughably small amounts of navy beans and see if your system begins to adjust - like 5 beans per day no more.


Yeh, I've thought that too but haven't done it...yet. Now if those magic beans were made of chocolate I'd be way more motivated haha.

Posted By : Gonk - 7/21/2013 2:31 PM
I bought some plantains, sliced them up and let them dry out (no heat), sprinkle with salt. Good snack, high RS.
43 Year Old Male,
First flare up in 1998, dx 2001
Asacol for first 10 years, now Lialda 4/day, plus Canasa and Rowasa as needed. LDN as of Feb 24, 2012. Started prednisone 40mg 7/9/13, stopped 7/18/13. Started Uceris 7/17/13.
Supplements include: Fish Oil, Psyllium, Bosswellia, Turmeric, Bromelain, Vitamins C, D, DHEA

Posted By : aguywithuc - 7/21/2013 5:17 PM
Gonk said...
I bought some plantains, sliced them up and let them dry out (no heat), sprinkle with salt. Good snack, high RS.


Let us know how it goes, I abandoned the man made variation and dont recommend anything but natural RS.

Posted By : uc22 - 7/22/2013 9:17 AM
aguy did you have better results with Kuners navy beans or Edens or no difference?

Posted By : aguywithuc - 7/22/2013 1:58 PM
uc22 said...
aguy did you have better results with Kuners navy beans or Edens or no difference?


Kuners for sure, still have Edens but have not opened a can of them in weeks if not months.

I now think you can over do it, a full can seems to be too much for my system to handle and I did start to get gassy.

I backed way off. Still at only 5mg prednisone, adrenals need to 'wake up' as I am sluggish in the morning could sleep all day.

However less beans still does the job, no blood, no urgency. So for me its going to be 1/2 can maximum and I will look to all my dirty cheat foods if I need to improve things.

Bean free today, had 1/2 can yesterday.

Posted By : Imran123 - 12/5/2013 9:55 AM
Been following this topic with interest. Have bananas already but will lean torwards to the green variety. baked beans I am ok with and also lentils so will be concentrating on those too.

Here is a good link i found with a list of foods that have resistant starch in case it helps anyone expand their diet!

http://conceptnutrition.com.au/resistant-starch-the-fibre-of-all-fibres/

Posted By : garylouisville - 12/5/2013 12:02 PM
This resistant starch thing fascinates me but I just can't seem to understand the cold thing. I'm sure it has been explained to death already but maybe someone can humor me one more time. So.............

You can have warm (let's say pasta) on your plate but then if you don't eat it, it becomes cold 10 minutes down the road. So you're saying that if it cooled down on your plate to the point where it was cold, it would be a lot more beneficial than if you had eaten it warm just ten minutes ago, even though the inside of your body is roughly 98.6 degrees Farenheit and anything eaten cold, including ice cream (or cold pasta), would soon warm up to 98.6 degrees anyway by the time it reached your intestines? Or is 98.6 degrees considered "cold"? I just can't wrap my head around understanding this because even if you had eaten it "warm" your body temperature would cool it down to that same 98.6 degrees so what is the difference if you eat it cold or hot or warm because by the time it reaches your intestines it will be 98.6 degrees, no matter what temperature it was when you ate it?
Lialda 1 pillX3; VSL#3 112.5mgs 1 pillX2; Prescrip Assist Probiotic 1 pill X 2;Vitamin D3 5000 ius 1 pillX2;Levsin;DAO;Folic acid. Pred taper.

Discontinued: Robinul; Natural - peppermint oil, Inflaguard (Boswellia), Pepto Bismol, Omega 3 fish oil, Imodium, Beano, Lactaid;Zymactive, Renew Life Probiotic 80 billion, Florastor, DGL, Monolaurin, slippery elm;black cherry concentrate;CCHerbal

Post Edited (garylouisville) : 12/5/2013 11:11:46 AM (GMT-7)


Posted By : TroubledTurds - 12/5/2013 9:39 PM
here's a thought maybe you can "wrap your head around" gary :

instead of trying to understand it, why don't you just do it ??????

since you're gonna have uc (or whatever it is that you have) forever, and you've been in a continual flare for 3 years, what are you waiting for ???

do the deal, then ANALyse it -

just a thought -

Posted By : ambling - 12/5/2013 10:11 PM
Hey Gary, it is a little complex, chemically. Like you I prefer to understand the mechanics of things, where possible. ;-)

There are four types of resistant starch, each measured by their level of digestibility, or the ability to break them down to their glucose units for absorption. They represent a small portion of total starch content.

When you heat, and then cool, amylose (the starch in question) it changes the structure, permanently. (Several cycles of heating and cooling actually further change that structure, but less and less so.)

The resistant starch contains more crystalline polymers and become less able to be broken down by digestive enzymes, acting more like insoluble fiber.

So heating and cooling makes it more glue-like, for want of a better term.

Posted By : aguywithuc - 12/5/2013 10:11 PM
garylouisville said...
This resistant starch thing fascinates me but I just can't seem to understand the cold thing. I'm sure it has been explained to death already but maybe someone can humor me one more time. So.............



The structure is different hot/cold. In a general way the colder it enters the better it resists digestion. I agree some is going to warm and change and be digested. Colder the better then.

But I never play that game I simply eat Navy beans, Kuners Navy beans .89 cents. Hot as all like hash browns or cold out of fridge quick spoonfuls.

I am done experimenting, learning mode is off. Just because I can eat anything when protected by daily navy when I stop and test but keep eating garbage it results in flares.

From here forward I wont stop Navy and for once I have proof that a maintenance drug helps me - ASACOL HD. Labwork was shockig and I felt better that's enough for me to believe, and with daily navy I should do great and be on a long long remission.

Posted By : Madpotter - 12/6/2013 8:41 AM
When you guys say green bananas how green are we talking? Solid green or just green around the ends?

Posted By : taroki - 4/5/2014 2:13 AM
bump ....

Hi guys, I think i'm having severe gut dysbiosis after a couple colonics a few weeks ago. I noticed my sulphur/sulphite senstivity, histamine allergy, and candida all flared up.

Right afterwards I noticed my stools getting pale, and rarely any bowel movement. I added probiotics and that seemed to help for a short while, but then on the second day of VSL#3 I noticed burning pain in my gut after taking it. I haven't taken any probiotics since.

I am now not sure what to eat and I am already underweight and very weak. I have Lyme, Mercury, leaky gut, CFS/fibromyalgia among other things. Last night I ate an apple and became uncomfortable for hours, then had cramping along with reddish, pale, watery diarrhea. I fear my leaky gut has gotten even worse. I also noticed my teeth are acidic especially when I wake up and my stools are very smelly and slightly painful (acidic?) when they come out.

What would you guys recommend?

Post Edited (taroki) : 4/5/2014 3:17:36 AM (GMT-6)


Posted By : aguywithuc - 4/5/2014 4:48 PM
Wow you sound like you need some help from people on this board.

First of all when I get to whacked out, too far over the line I need prednisone and my plan is to not let it slip that far again. I have had weeks that went bad from horrible food choices and was able to snap out of it each time.

You do not sound like you need that as there is no extreme bleeding.

"rarely any bowel movement"

The acidity sounds like you need to drink a lot more water and start eating spinach, canned spinach is fine.

I just made chili with grass fed 90% lean burger from whole paycheck, plus Navy beans for RS, plus chopped onions and cheddar cheese.

1. Water all day, rinse out toxins
2. VSL#3DS to get balance going
3. RS to repair, cold pasta ( Barilla ) navy beans in small amounts
4. Pysllium Seed Powder convert to SCFA butyrate
5. Psyllium husk if it does not bother you ( need right fiber to help good bacteria )
6. Spinach of any kind, canned is fine
7. Absolutely no sugar, fake sugar, no processed foods until better
8. I also found Asacol HD had a dramatic effect on my bloodwork I was monitoring

That should help stablize things.

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