buprenorphine or LDN

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bucci
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Date Joined May 2006
Total Posts : 1477
   Posted 4/1/2012 9:34 AM (GMT -6)   
Has anyone ever tried this drug for chronic pain?
it is otherwise known as subutex but without the naloxone.

LDN is Low Dose Naltrexone which is different from the NalOXONE that is in suboxone.


I have heard of people diagnosed with "endorphine syndrome" trying LOW dose naltrexone and it helping with energy and pain.

But it seems that anyone who is on hydrocortisone or other steroids it is NOT for them and almost has more of a crashing effect.


The pain medication helps and kind of has lot of trade offs for me.

My pain I guess is more neuro type. like all over the body as opposed to those who have suffered terrible accidents and surgeries.

I take 1/4 of a 2m buprenorphine pill and it lasts 24 hours and replaced about eight 5mg roxycodone over the course of the day.

My personality is better on it too.

I also take 20mg hydrocortisone Am and 10mg afternoon.

The buprenorphine makes me sleepy also and is very heavy constipation.

I would give anything to be able to walk away from the pain meds and the steroids. Even though I was on 20mg of prednisone for almost 2 yrs and feel the 30mg cortisone is a better trade off.

I feel like I can't access my TIGER anymore and my life is going by in a fog and by the way still have all those fluish feelings.

I do get good days that I am very grateful for.

Can anyone weigh in here on these drugs.
Has anyone else been helped by buprenorphine or Low Dose Naltrexone.

thankyou

ReactiveConstellationNE
Regular Member


Date Joined Dec 2005
Total Posts : 256
   Posted 4/1/2012 11:20 AM (GMT -6)   
I haven't heard any consistent reports about steroids being a problem with LDN.....and I was subscribed to the LDN-Yahoo mailing list for a long time (had to unsubscribe because I'm not currently taking LDN, rather ULDN -- ultra low dose, micrograms rather than milligrams -- alongside pain meds to moderate tolerance and make it easier to taper off over the next few months in preparation for a "reset" that will let me try LDN this summer and if that doesn't work out, go back on pain meds while being able to take fullest advantage of the anti-tolerance adjuvants I'm using including ULDN, Memantine (Namenda), Dextromethorphan (DXM), Melatonin, Calcitonin, Lactoferrin, L-Theanine, Neurontin/Lyrica, etc because these work best at preventing the formation of tolerance rather than reversing it).

That's not to say that it isn't a problem, just that I haven't heard the number of reports about that which I would expect if it was a problem for everyone; I seem to recall having heard about lots of people who've taken them both and not had any clear issues with the combination.

I do know that some people have reported that thyroid issues can complicate the successful use of LDN....and sometimes steroids can affect the thyroid/adrenals....so that may be the connection.

Honestly, I think the only way to be sure about LDN is to try it, and that can involve being patient through a difficult adjustment period at first -- really you need 2-3 months to be sure how it's going to work for you long term, trying different dosages (some people can't tolerate more than 1mg, others do best on 4-5, etc....some have even tried doses as low as 0.1-0.5mg successfully) and giving your receptors/neurochemistry time to fully adjust after having been on traditional opiate agonist pain meds for a prolonged period....

You could theoretically also try ULDN with buprenorphine but I don't know of many reports of people doing that. One probably absorbs tiny amounts of naloxone from suboxone (as opposed to subutex obviously) so that could either be good or bad depending on your personal reaction to that combination, though there are distinct differences between naloxone and naltrexone, mainly that naltrexone lasts much longer, at least in the higher dosages. There is some debate as to how long naltrexone actually lasts in the low/ultra low dose ranges since there has been little hard research about this.

Going off the buprenorphine is one of the most difficult opioids to taper off because it is so potent in such teeny tiny doses (you're already taking 0.5mg/500mcg, so it's obviously difficult to accurately measure out smaller doses....though you could do it the same way I measure out ULDN, by dissolving a tablet in an exact volume of water, then measuring out a fraction of the water to get a known number of micrograms of buprenorphine), so doing that and eventually trying LDN would definitely be a considerable challenge -- but could be well worth it in the long run if LDN works for you.

I personally am going through hell and back to have the opportunity to try LDN, even though I think the chances are fairly good that it won't work out for me (though I'm doing my best to keep an open mind). If it does, the rewards are considerable....your own endogenous opioids (endorphins/enkephalins) are more potent than any exogenous opiate, have considerable health benefits, and will keep working indefinitely unlike exo-opiates which obviously have tremendous issues with tolerance and dependence. If you suddenly stop LDN, there is no apparent withdrawal, which surprises me but makes a certain degree of sense.

You didn't mention how long you've been on the bupe, but if it's only been a short time then you may adjust to it eventually and not have as many issues with sleepiness, constipation etc....still, if you're able to do the taper and take a few weeks to let your receptors adjust to being off exo-opiates, then go through the LDN adjustment period (start with as little as 0.1mg, ratchet up to 1mg, see how that goes, then trial doses up to about 4.5mg and go back down if you need to, then settle on whatever works best for you), the rewards are considerable.

bucci
Veteran Member


Date Joined May 2006
Total Posts : 1477
   Posted 4/1/2012 1:03 PM (GMT -6)   
Thankyou for sharing all the info with me.

I get the 2 mg straight buprenorphine no naloxone.

I try to split it in quarters and take one quarter every 24 hours.
But the crumbling of pill varies.

This stuff gets me looped and if I do less than I get withdrawals by the evening and taking at night makes those dope nightmare dreams.

I can see how it even works like antidepressant
But I can feel the toll on my body.


The thing I don't want to go back to is walking all twisted and not being able to put feet on floor.

I try to keep my brain chemistry up with eating more
Protien and the ton of supplements that I go on and off plus the
Bioidenticals are running my life and r. Too expensive.

I don't know. But thankyou for answering

ReactiveConstellationNE
Regular Member


Date Joined Dec 2005
Total Posts : 256
   Posted 4/3/2012 8:16 PM (GMT -6)   
I know what you mean about the dreams. I'm very prone to them myself, particularly with morphine and levorphanol (which both have kappa opioid receptor effects); I'm currently using levorphanol to help me with the process of tapering off my other pain meds to reset my tolerance and get the most out of the adjuvants as I described above, and I can't take it at night (only during the day, no later than 2PM) because of how intense the nightmares are otherwise.

In fact, particularly with morphine, the nightmares become these horrible suffocation/crushing death dreams that haunt me and make it a lot harder to stay positive about the rest of what I have to deal with during the day time.

However, you may find that over time they get to be less of a problem....in my case I have a few things, supplements and other meds, that I've noticed help suppress the dreams (anything that acts on GABA like Neurontin or Lyrica for example).
Conditions: Reactive Arthritis (AKA Reiter Syndrome), Chronic Pelvic Inflammatory Syndrome, Sacroiliitis, Costochondritis, As Yet Unknown MS-Like Relapsing/Remitting Neuropathy, mysteriously variable digestive issues, and a partridge in a pear tree.
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