Depressed loved one, I am looking to better understand so I can be supportive PLEASE!

Hello everyone,

I am very new to posting in forums and I am hopeful that it will provide me with insight to my situation. I was in a relationship for two years when things fell apart in September. My partner had a close family friend take his life in May and for four months, I had no idea what was going on. Around the end of August, she had an episode of hysterics/panic with lots of screaming and crying. I did not take it personally because she admitted she was depressed and I knew that from that point on, I needed to understand she was suffering and not to take it personally. At this point, she asked me to help her help herself because she was scared. She saw her doctor, was prescribed meds, and started counseling. about two weeks into this process, she quit talking to me. She didn't provide much of an answer, but what she did say stood out: that she couldn't keep hurting me; that she had to get out of "comfort" to help herself, and that she knew it wasn't fair to me.

I was very hurt and confused for the two months that we havent spoken. I am doing better now, and besides, this post is about her, not me We met for the first time last night, at my request. It has been very hard on me to not let her know how much I care about her. I harbored a lot of pain from the depressive behavior and I wanted to get it off my chest. The meeting was neither good, nor bad; it was somewhat informative. My goal in this post is to obtain advice from people who have been in this position as the depressed person or a loved one.

She thanked me for letting her know how I felt; said it helped her remember things that bothered her. She said that she wanted to be able to also sit down with me and do the same thing, hopefully soon. What didn't make sense is that she hasn't made any progress in the past two months. At one point, she quit taking her medicine (I am not sure if she started back). She said that she does not know if she wants me in her life or not, but she will not tell me that she doesn't. Everything is just one big I DON'T KNOW. Can anyone please help me understand what feelings and thoughts she could be having??? I have read a few books and I understand that many things are probably very overwhelming for her right now, but how do you NOT KNOW if you see someone in your life?? I don't want to get frustrated with her, so please help!

I've given her the space she asked for, and I will not overwhelm her, but I do think that I need to play a more active role. Her schoolwork and life is slipping away. I know that I cannot stop it, but I feel like I am allowed to ask about it every now and then so that she can not avoid everything that is piling up. I read an article about depression that really helped me and in the article it explained that partners of loved ones CANNOT back away. They must remain present in-person because when the depressed re-build their lives, their priorities take different positions. If I am not around, she can actually build me out of her life. Has anyone found this to be true?

Please know that this is not about me OR our relationship; it is really about her. For right now, I think she is stable enough to be left alone, but because there has not been progress made and she quit her medication for awhile, there is the possibility that nothing is keeping her from being worse. She is at a standstill. Anyone who has had a depressed spouse, child, friend, relative, sibling, anything... must understand. You just can't give up on them, no matter how bad all of these things hurt. Even though she doesn't ask me to hold on, she doesn't tell me to let go. Even if she did, I wouldn't listen.

Please provide any wisdom or advice from personal experiences... what she may be battling, what is the best/worst things for me to do. I want to be supportive, but at the same time, tough love kicks in at some points and I can't keep watching her self destruct. Well, at least not happily.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR ANY RESPONSES!!!!!

Hello, Green Bean 885, welcome to the Depression Forum,

1. The "I DON'T KNOW' is an honest expression to you. Depression lowers the intellectual functioning, and depressed people have difficulty making decisions, taking or giving advice, and conducting themselves on a high functional level.

2. Your concern is understandable, but you need to back away and let her have some room to think. I know it's hard, but the person needs to recover, and that requires some major time spent in evaluating oneself and the overall situation. Your presence as a significant other is inhibiting the ability of the depressed loved one to face reality.  I would say that one should not leave a depressed person if that person is otherwise healthy.  If not, and if the relationship is really a co-dependent one, you're not going to help by inviting yourself further into an already-defensive position which she has.

3. Providing that "security" that you believe you are giving is not really the thing that is going to bring your loved one out of it. I believe that you need to talk to a therapist for yourself to find out why you have such a strong dependency in the relationship. While you may believe genuinely that you are there for the person, you may be meeting some unconscious needs of your own by placing yourself so close and so often in your desire to "be of help." That may not be the thing that she really needs.

4. Independence is possible only for mature people, and it is a valuable condition of life. Dependency often ultimately leads to depression, because the individual is so buffered by attention, affection, positive "food" that the person cannot really be free to think and live for herself.  You may even be in a relationship that is one of narcissism, and you may be an inverted narcissist.  If so, you've taken more abuse than you will ever know.  I wouldn't let it continue by "asking for it".  And you may find that you are never really happy in life unless you are close to a narcissist.  If that's the case, personal help for you would be mandated to recover.

5. I urge you strongly to talk to a psychiatrist about your relationship in this matter and make sure that your needs are being met to guide you into an independent lifestyle for yourself. Once you do that, then you may be of more assistance than ever before, because you are not unconsciously still clinging to a relationship that is one of parent to child, etc.

Take care of yourself first; then you will be more than able to help someone else along his/her way to independence. That's what any mature person would want for a loved one.

Good wishes,

I.G.

Post Edited (It's Genetic) : 11/3/2011 6:55:19 PM (GMT-6)

You ask how can she not know what she wants? Go hit yourself as hard as you can with a baseball bat and then have someone ask you immediately afterward which way is up, or what your name is, etc. Odd are you are not going to know much of anything either. (No I don't really want you to do that, just using it to help you understand)

Depression is one huge bat that not just clobbers you once but again and again and sometimes just when you think you have it under control it comes out of nowhere a smacks you once more.

Your friend has not only been hit with depression but she was also blindsided by the suicide of someone close to her. She has experienced a severe double whammy to her emotions, her mental state. On a mental and emotional level she has been severely hurt and like any severe, traumatic physical wound it takes a lot of time for things to heal and to either get everything working properly again or adapt fully to the new reality.

At this point the best thing you can do is just let her know you care and are there for her when she is ready and/or needs you and then back off. There is no way to tell or know what the future will hold for you and her as a couple, but if you push things you are liable to just push her away.

---

2 confirmed herniated lumbar discs. Spinal Arthritis. Spinal Stenosis, diabetic peripheral nueropathy.

Jim1969: Thank you for trying to explain things and no worries, I won't be using a bat on myself any time soon. Since we have seen each other, it is very easy to want to fall into keeping contact/seeing each other. I have gotten to let her know I care and that I am available if she needs anything, so it is best that I go back to my quiet role of support and keep myself busy.

It's Genetic: Thank you for all of your points, your insight is more than I bargained for (in a good way)! I started seeing a therapist the second week she was ignoring me and have continued attending my sessions. You are right: providing the "security" may not be what she needs. It is hard to accept that because she asked for it-- she asked that I promise to support her through sessions and appointments. Quite simply, she may have changed her mind. She was very frightened of what was going on since she didn't know what had caused it and how exactly she felt. Yes, I have felt an obligation to follow through on that promise and it has been extremely hard not contacting her for two months.

You brought up dependency and after seeing her last night, I think this is something I should look more into. You explained that my mere presence is keeping her from facing reality and that makes a lot of sense. If I were facing emotions I could not explain and didn't like, I would turn to the things and people I knew comforted me. In this aspect, it is should be viewed as progress that she knows she cannot be around me because it hinders her from dealing with things. After realizing this, I know that I don't want to be in a relationship with someone because they only need me; I want to be in a relationship with someone who wants me. Who can handle things on their own and enjoys their time with me because of the person I am, not the things I offer.

I have been making great efforts to "take care of myself" because if I don't, who else will?!!? haha :) Taking care of myself, nor my partner's depression, seem to be "quick" journeys. I hate that so many people battle such a disease. Well, I hate that anyone battles any disease to be truthful- seems as though there never is a definite "stop date" for any of it.

Again, thank you both.

You're a very nice person, Green Bean 885, and you make much sense in
what you say. Keep seeing your counselor and ask him/her about whether
you're doing the right thing about being there for her. You're certainly doing all you know to do.

Take care of yourself first; that's the right way. Then, you may help her
to her independence and respect for you and enjoyment of your company.

Best wishes,

I.G.

Hi Green Bean 885,

Welcome to the depression forum. I am truly glad that you have joined us, though sorry for the reason. It is hard watching somebody that you care about suffer with depression. You feel helpless and sometimes unloved as they have to focus on themselves to get better. I am sorry that she quit her medication, sometimes though side effects come in to play and you can't tolerate it. Do you know if she continued counseling? That is very important for her, and for you also.

I am glad that you are keeping busy and taking care of you. I also agree that you need counseling. This will help you cope with the situation of her having to focus on her. As somebody posted above, we don't know how this is going to turn out in relationship to your relationship with her. That is why getting on with your life is so important. You have to have other things that make you happy besides her. It is so important for emotional growth. So do take care of you as she is taking care of her. I hope she is taking care of her. Do remember that this is a very gradual process. There may be times it feels she is at a standstill. She is probably struggling with something at this point. Be patient. Take care of you and keep posting.

Hugs, Karen

---

Moderator-Depression and fibromyalgia


fibromyalgia, Chronic fatigue, depression, allergies

Hi Karen,

Thank you for your response. When she said she quit the medicine, I think she may have just meant "for awhile". She said, "I quit taking my medicine because things were feeling better... that was a bad idea". I understand the horrible side effects of those types of drugs. I have struggled with severe physical anxiety for about 4 years now and tried Wellbutrin and Zoloft for tremors until Lexapro worked. The Lexapro really helped, but MAN IT MADE ME SICK. Like clockwork, three hours after taking the pill I was vomiting. Thankfully through counseling and practice, I have learned to better handle my anxiety and OCD. I was even taken off the Lexapro :)

I really feel a lot better after being able to tell her how I feel, both the good and the bad. She took it very well and has kept contact with me via text message since we met Wednesday night. That is a HUGE change from no contact at all for two months. I don't think she needs a reminder of her current state, so I just send or respond with "surface" things... the weather, how she's doing at work, sales going on this weekend, etc. Today I even woke up to a heart icon she sent at 2am. It made me very happy, but I know that responding with the same icon wasn't necessary. I am learning to be grateful for very small things. I have always been an appreciative person, but its nice to learn how to be grateful.

My sister is struggling right now with some issues of her own and has only opened up to me about them. Like one of the responses said, I need to make sure I am ok and stable so that when my partner needs me, I can handle it. I also need to have that stability for my sister so that when she needs a listening ear, I can provide that. I don't feel overwhelmed anymore because I am not taking on anyone else's pain. I trust that both my sister and my partner are stable enough not to hurt themselves at this point and both know they can come to me whenever they are ready. My sister stays in touch daily, whereas before it was more sporadic, so I must be doing something right!

This forum seems to really help- like there is always someone who will listen, relate, or even understand. I hope I can provide that for other users as well, as I always like to return favors!

It really sounds like things are improving for you. I think that the heart icon was a good sign. Take it one day at a time.

I am glad that you aren't feeling overwhelmed anymore. That is good. We can't take on other's pain. As we have to deal with our own life. And our pains. It can be done.

I am also glad that this forum has helped you. That is what we try to do. We really don't have answers but we can give support and direction. Say what has worked for us as an individual. But all in all, it is our work that has to be done. And sometimes it just falls into place for us. But live in the moment. And take it as it comes. You will get there.

Keep posting, feel free to offer support. We always need it.

Hugs, Karen

---

Moderator-Depression and fibromyalgia


fibromyalgia, Chronic fatigue, depression, allergies

Hi everyone,

Hope you had a good weekend. I had a rough day yesterday and am still feeling anxious today. Sundays are typically difficult for me because it was the one day a week that my partner and I always spent time together, without the distractions of week day activities.

I had mentioned last week that after our meeting, we had a little communication everyday via texting. Mainly it was just an easy "good night" or "good morning". I woke up yesterday to a text from her telling me goodnight (with a smiley) and reminding me to set my clocks back. Good thing she reminded me because I had forgotten! At one point in the day, I told her I was thinking about her and didn't get a text back. That was ok, because it didn't really need an answer I suppose, though one would have been nice. Since we had been telling each other good night, I also sent that... still, no response.

For some weird reason, this really triggers my anxiety... what did I say that was too much? Did she realize she doesn't want to be in contact? Has she decided that she doesn't want me in her life? Is she ok? Is her phone lost? Maybe her phone died... Maybe she is with someone else...

These thoughts are driving me crazy! All over no responses to 2 text messages, neither of which really required an answer. I try to remind myself that at our meeting, she said she loved me and wanted to be able to figure out "what happened" with our relationship so she could tell me. I remind myself that she still has a key and items at my house-- if she was done, wouldn't she return the key and collect her things?? That thought only makes me fearful that I will go home and the key will be returned and all her things gone. No matter what I try, it seems like my anxiety is really just on overload and turns things into negativity and fear.

Also, two months ago when we weren't in contact, this is how it started. I didn't hear from her one day, so I let it go. That one day turned into two days, which turned into a week, a month, two months. I am aware that I am relating this NEW situation to an OLD one, but how do I stop? I'm a very logical person and I logically agree that the two situations at this point are very different, but are they really?

I understand that she may have had a rough day- maybe any communication was difficult, especially with me. I am just filled with worry and thought that writing about it in the forum may help.

Good morning, Greenbean885, Bill, on the Bipolar forum, wrote an
interesting comment this morning for a person who is struggling, too, with a family member who won't get medical assistance. The gist is that it is impossible to help someone who doesn't want help. (Hard lesson to learn.)

You are obviously very much in love and feeling all the terrible anxiety and sense of loss that lovers often feel. I have sympathy for you, but you will recover in time if you continue to seek counselling. That's really the only effective route to take in a shaky love relationship. The only thing you're going to be successful at changing is your approach to the whole matter.

The dependency you have on this person is a very large part of your despair. Real love will make you grow up fast, I think. You have to establish your own independence before you can be of assistance to someone else, and you will become more sensitive about how to do that once you are unafraid of being a single individual working for your own growth and maturity first. Just jumping in headlong to offer your life to someone is a turnoff for others, I think. Keep your individuality and see that you maintain your independence. You might find reading some excellent literature on real love helpful in getting you organized to do what's right to help someone else. Right now, it's your emotions that are leading you, and your needs are overwhelming. You may need a little medication to ease the emotional thinking processes and permit your intelligence to headup your progress.


I hope you have success and I hope you find the midpoint in life from being dependent to being independent and responsible for yourself first so that you may be of valuable help to those in need. Please note "those"; there is more than one person out there who could benefit from your help once you are secure within yourself. Please don't put "too many eggs in one basket".

Take care of you first, always. 

It's Genetic,

Thank you! The crazy thing about this "becoming independent" phase is that I have always felt I was independent because of my dysfunctional upbringing. I have come to realize that I am only independent of my parents and it seems like I seek out in others the feelings I did not get from my parents. I have never seen myself getting married or having children and I was extremely surprised at how this whole situation affected me. It seems like I wasn't as independent as I thought.

I very much want to grow and mature. I consider myself to be a "good" person, but I want to be a "better" person so that one day, I can be the best person possible! But, I don't really know how to achieve that growth and maturity... I guess that's what my sessions are for. I have been an an organic form of lithium for about two months now and let me tell ya something: Lithium = Magic! It has really chilled down my obsessing. I agree that sometimes, my emotions really just take over. I do not feel like I know how to let my intelligence lead my progress... what intelligence do I even have in such a situation? None, I think.

What is it that I even need? I have always felt more of a responsibility to others, especially my siblings. I learned 4 years ago that I felt like I could somehow protect my siblings from the horrible feelings I grew up with and the realization that wasn't possible hit me really hard. Maybe I only dealt with that situation, rather than noticing that I "risk it all" out of love for others. For awhile, I thought my partner could come back and make everything ok again. I KNOW that is not possible. A) Things just can't be "fixed", our relationship will never be the same and that's GOOD that shows the maturity and growth you are talking about B) I have to "fix" things myself... sadly, I don't even think I know what I'm fixing.

And like I said, I guess that's what counseling is for... to figure out why out of all of my relationships, I was so dependent in this one. To discover those "root causes" and face them. I have a pretty good idea what they are, just absolutely no idea how to deal with them. And again, that's what counselling is for.

Some days, I wish it was possible to have a counseling session for hours at a time... I don't suppose its good to dwell on things for such a long period, but with my Type A personality, I'm really just ready for this to reach a conclusion.

Yes, I understand Greenbean885.

It's the little child within that is having the problems with dependency. Somehow, your psychiatrist will open that wound and help it to heal. Then
you may let that little child out so that it can play and be creative.  (Each of us has a little child within, and the adult in us eventually learns how to protect that little one and keep it content and happy!)  Your intelligence is definitely working; otherwise, you wouldn't even be questioning what is happening.  Glad you're taking the right meds.  (A chemical imbalance can do strange things to a depressed person.)

Kitt,

Depression is definitely hell. I feel like I can't complain much about it since I'm not experiencing everything first hand like she is. I don't like to talk about it, but during my first year of college I was depressed myself. Looking back now, I wonder if being dx as depressed was because it was an easy way to explain things. I could be horribly wrong, but my experience with depression is NOTHING I have read about or listened to professions speak of. I have made many efforts to learn more about the disease and my "depression" was extremely atypical.

I gained 30 pounds in 6 months. Like you said, nights were easier for me, but that's because I felt safe sleeping during the day. I'm not sure why, I think I just liked the quiet of the night. By sleeping during the day, I could escape the feelings and at night, they weren't as strong. I didn't lose interest in activities, although maybe I just forced myself to go because I had read that was a side effect of depression. My OCD went off the chart... I'd clean the bathroom tile with a toothbrush. I wasn't very reliable with keeping plans because I'd start cleaning, and 3 hours later I'd still be cleaning the same thing because it made me feel better, no matter what plans I had. My grades were decent but again, I think I was just determined not to fail. I still went to work, fulfilled all my responsibilities. No one ever even knew anything was wrong. I was either really good at what I did or really not deeply depressed.

I also, was in a relationship at the time. The guy I dated made no effort to understand. He'd pester me for answers about the future of our relationship, push me to attend social functions with him when I was frightened people would notice something was wrong. I got to the point where I couldn't handle the relationship because it felt like everything was my fault and I didn't know what was wrong with me. Once I told him I needed time, I felt like I could sort through the scary things without affecting someone else. At one point, I needed his comfort again. I wanted his security, a break from the negative feelings and thoughts.

Unfortunately (and thankfully) that relationship did not work out. When I was "better", he could never let go of the things I had said or done during my "hard" time. He threw it in my face a lot. He acted out and took advantage of me, using my depression as his excuse.

I don't want to be THAT person. In my original post, I said I wanted to learn how to be supportive. I know my partner well and if anything, she respects me. I know that she says she doesn't "know" if she wants me in her life, but I do trust that if/when she knew, she would tell me. It's extremely tough not knowing, I'm sure even more difficult for her. What I do know, is that I love her and I have for 2 years. It's not just going to go away overnight, or quickly for that matter.

Like It's Genetic has advised, its a good time for me to grow and mature. Of course, there are lots of things I can improve on for myself. I do feel like this love is the genuine, real love. Just like in a depression, one may not be able to explain all the things they feel, love is the same way. I have never felt such compassion, strength, forgiveness, and understanding towards anyone.

You made me feel a lot better when you said "if you think we don't love you because we have depression, you could be very wrong". I do think that sometimes, even though she has not said anything along those lines... in fact, she has only said that she does love me! It's just those dang feelings we all have! Sometimes, they make perceptions seem like reality.

Dear greenbean

You have gotten some very sage advice here and I cannot think of much to add.

I think your sister and gf are lucky to have you around. Men tend to be fixers and this is very difficult for my husband cause he can't stand to not fix my depression...

Try not to obsess about the quantity or quality of messages or communication...it probably has nothing to do with you(no offense).

She definitely needs to continue counseling and probably meds. The first round may not work and then you have to start all over again as most anti-depressants can take up to 8 weeks to take full effect.

Keep taking care of yourself and just be there for her

Good luck and keep posting

Maggie

---

"We never realize how strong we are, until being strong is the only thing left"
Major Depressive Disorder, ptsd, fibromyalgia, chronic pain, l3/4, L4/5 gone, bursitis arthritis sciatica


welbutrin HBP meds abilify seroquel hydrocodone flexeril klonopin magnesium

I did not consider that she may have to start new meds... I'm sure that makes someone feel very defeated.

I'm thankful that I have people to listen when I have a hard time... yesterday was rough, but just being able to write today and be encouraged has put me back in my spirits, believing I can be strong for myself, my sister and girlfriend.

Greenbean885,

I am glad that you are finding help here. It is nice to have different perspectives as to what is going on. You have gotten some very good advice, so there really isn't anything to add. Just stay focused in the moment and take life one day at a time.

I agree with you about having more energy at night and sleeping during the day. I did that for a long time with the fibro and depression. I couldn't help it though. I felt safe at night. Days were stressful.

Take care,

Have a good day.

Sincerely, Karen

---

Moderator-Depression and fibromyalgia


fibromyalgia, Chronic fatigue, depression, allergies

I would agree with all three of the others who have posted to you, Green Bean885:

1. Depressed people may still love you though it is not apparent in their behavior.

2. The best possible advice you are going to get is going to come from a psychotherapist. None of us are doctors and can only relate to you what we know from life.

3. Take one day at a time.

4. Get your most secure advice from the psychotherapist. I'm glad you are
taking medications prescribed.

Post Edited (It's Genetic) : 11/7/2011 12:07:49 PM (GMT-7)

Everyone is wonderful :)

And yes, professional help is best. The deal is, my therapist doesn't give advice lol. At all. One time, she shared a personal story with me, but I think it was just to help me better understand.

The most valuable resource I have is my faith... I never thought I could be this strong for 2 months, and yet, somehow I have. Ever just felt like you couldn't give up on something or someone??? I can't explain why, I just feel like I have to be strong for others and myself.

I have learned many things from this experience thus far, and one of them is that society as a whole doesn't have a very good handle or understanding of depression, or for that matter, mental illnesses as a whole. It doesn't seem like many people are tolerant of the struggles and turmoil that such illnesses bring on. I have a new compassion for people battling such ambiguous opponents.

I truly appreciate all of the encouragement and kind words... hopefully, I will be strong for awhile on my own, without rely on others to encourage me. Don't ya'll go anywhere though, I'm sure I'll be back! In the meantime, I will do my best to help others.

Yes, mental illness is seen as a weakness or character flaw by most society and I think you understand now how strong those suffering really are to bear up under such aheavy weight, and the society's attitude to boot.

We are always glad to listen here green bean. This forum has been a liesaver thrown out to me on my worst days...glad we can do the same for you.

Keep fighting the good fight.
Keep us posted
Maggie

---

"We never realize how strong we are, until being strong is the only thing left"
Major Depressive Disorder, ptsd, fibromyalgia, chronic pain, l3/4, L4/5 gone, bursitis arthritis sciatica


welbutrin HBP meds abilify seroquel hydrocodone flexeril klonopin magnesium

I disagree strongly with the idea that "society" looks down on mental illness as a "weakness or character flaw". I would agree strongly that uneducated people regard it in that way. However, I think that highly educated people, and especially people who have lived a professional life are usually very sympathetic and non-judgmental about mental illness, just as they are about physical illness related to the liver, kidneys, heart, etc.

Oh IG, I have rarely in my life listened to what society says-LOL...I am a rebel and so question intensely anything mainstream society postulates as "truth" and no offense taken...

I agree with you that anyone with a good soul and an ounce of intelligence does not see me or us as weak...but, I have actually had people step back when I talk of bipolar, I think that tv shows "true crime" portray mentally ill people, especially homeless as violent and delusional, which is just not true.

AAnd unfortunately, I live in a very uneducated part of the country so I run into bias more often than maybe some of you do.

I don't beleive for a second that I am weak...I think our challenges make us stronger and more in tune with others as well...it has taught me a great deal of empathy.

Sorry if I expressed myself incorrectly...I don't for a minute support that viewpoint at all...didn't mean to get your dander up IG-LOL!!

Maggie

---

"We never realize how strong we are, until being strong is the only thing left"
Major Depressive Disorder, ptsd, fibromyalgia, chronic pain, l3/4, L4/5 gone, bursitis arthritis sciatica


welbutrin HBP meds abilify seroquel hydrocodone flexeril klonopin magnesium

I live in a small Southern town, so I would say my opinion that society does not have much understanding or compassion for mental illness is most likely based on where I currently live. Small towns are pretty close minded about lots and lots of things!

Questioning and learning about things has always been my forte, especially after attending a strictly liberal arts college--- questioning is highly encouraged! I do not think anyone is weak or less of a person for their mental struggles. Like Maggie said, I think they are stronger that they deal and conquer menaces that others never know of.

I agree, Greenbean885.

Great dialog Greenbean and all. 

Please know coming  here, GB, is a wonderful and courageous step. You are voicing your fears so you know what they are.

It is natural to feel conflicting emotions and as IG posted, therpy is a good thing so know we are all here to support you and find a therapist that you can build a trust relationship with.

Thinking of you,

Kitt

 

 

---

~~Kitt~~
Moderator: Anxiety, Osteoarthritis,
GERD/Heartburn and Heart/Cardiovascular Disease.
www.healingwell.com

"only as high as I reach can I grow, only as far as I seek can I go, only as deep as I look can I see, only as much as I dream can I be"