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How do you unwind before sleep?

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Depression
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ForeverPositive
Regular Member
Joined : Mar 2019
Posts : 376
Posted 12/1/2021 7:21 AM (GMT -7)
I previous posted about how bad my sleep cycle was-well it's gotten worse. I can sleep for hours and still feel exhausted. Melatonin and chamomile tea doesn't work for me. I'm so tired all the time. I can't remember the last time I actually experienced deep sleep.

The problem is I can't shut off my mind although I am trying mediation and listening to ASMR videos in the hope it will get me to relax enough to fall asleep. This has always been a problem for me, but it's gotten worse.

Looking to see what routine people do which helps them sleep....
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Michelejc
Forum Moderator
Joined : Jan 2011
Posts : 2762
Posted 12/1/2021 10:21 AM (GMT -7)
I watch TV until I fall asleep.
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getting by
Forum Moderator
Joined : Sep 2007
Posts : 45193
Posted 12/1/2021 2:04 PM (GMT -7)
I meditate before I go to sleep. But what I am reading from you is that you are sleeping but not getting a restful sleep. That was me when my fibromyalgia was bad. I was sleeping 12 hours and still tired. Plus sleeping during the day. I found I function better actually on about 6 hours. Everybody is different though.

The meditation puts me to sleep but doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the quality of it.

I find too that computers, phones and other electronics can make it hard for me to go to sleep. Too stimulating.

I hope you find what works for you. I think calmness and relaxation before sleep helps in falling asleep.

I hope this helps a little.

Hugs, Karen...
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paul_t
Regular Member
Joined : Sep 2018
Posts : 235
Posted 12/2/2021 12:16 AM (GMT -7)
I hate to say it, but a couple glasses of red wine tends to do it for me.

It's not great quality sleep, but it puts me in bed. Moreover, in a few hours, I tend to get up, brush up, and go to sleep for another couple hours or so. That's probably the highest quality sleep I get.

Alcohol is generally a bad idea, though it can work in lieu of more sophisticated drugs.
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getting by
Forum Moderator
Joined : Sep 2007
Posts : 45193
Posted 12/2/2021 6:43 AM (GMT -7)
Hi Paul,

As I am sure you know, alcohol is a depressant. Though I think a glass of wine a day can be healthy. Just be careful that you don't let it take control.

As I mentioned above, I have found meditation to help greatly. I hope you find what is right for you.

Have a great day.

Hugs, Karen...
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ForeverPositive
Regular Member
Joined : Mar 2019
Posts : 376
Posted 12/2/2021 4:29 PM (GMT -7)
I spoke with my therapist yesterday. She wants me to give meditation another try. I guess it's easy to get frustrated with meditation when your a beginner.

My problem is the quality of sleep. I'm not getting deep sleep. I don't know why it's so hard for me to get.
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Sometimes i am me (HT)...
Elite Member
Joined : Mar 2009
Posts : 22562
Posted 12/2/2021 7:25 PM (GMT -7)
In the greater crux of things, from someone in this space, it is all about the delta sleep, yes FP,
dELTA SLEEP, USUALLY IN THAT PRE WAKE, THE MOST RAPID EYE MOVEMENT AND dream phase, oops hit buttons,around 5am to 7am. This is the actual healing sleep that is sufficient for us.
Mental health and sleep, yeah, massive correlation. Much turtle research. A bi polar expert, the worlds best, and in Australia, Prof Berk held a seminar on sleep and mental health with a sleep specialist, and this was expressed.
Sleep hygiene is crucial, bed time same, wake same, i wish for me! Disengage media an hour prior. Prepare for lights of, and dimmed. Circadium rythmes are crucial.

Strength to ya. HT
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getting by
Forum Moderator
Joined : Sep 2007
Posts : 45193
Posted 12/3/2021 7:59 AM (GMT -7)
Awesome post Jamie,

Yes rapid eye movement. Stage four I think. Crucial for healing and proper rest.

Have a good day/night HT...

Hugs, Karen...
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Sometimes i am me (HT)...
Elite Member
Joined : Mar 2009
Posts : 22562
Posted 12/4/2021 1:00 AM (GMT -7)
THOSE 2 HOURS ARE ENOUGH. HT
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The Dude Abides
Veteran Member
Joined : May 2017
Posts : 2500
Posted 12/4/2021 2:24 AM (GMT -7)
Hi, ForeverPositive:

A few things to consider...

1. Have you been checked for Obstructive Sleep Apnea and/or Central Sleep Apnea?

Either or both of those could be a contributing factor, in addition to your racing mind. Unfortunately, I have the same issue of sleeping for many hours and still waking tired. Thus, I have a lot of empathy for your situation.

2. Here are two episodes of the Huberman Lab podcast which discuss sleep and provide many helpful tips.

Master Your Sleep & Be More alert When Awake
Dr. Matthew Walker: The Science & Practice of Perfecting Your Sleep

You can learn about Andrew Huberman, PhD HERE.

3. Finally, the amount of melatonin in your melatonin supplement may be too high.

Here are a couple of articles discussing the optimal melatonin dose (0.3 mg) featuring Richard J. Wurtman, MD:

https://news.mit.edu/2001/melatonin-1017
https://news.mit.edu/2005/melatonin

Dr. Wurtman developed a sleep supplement called "Sleep Answer" to deliver a dual dose of melatonin over several hours to help people stay asleep. I didn't like some of the ingredients in the product, so I searched around and found a low-dose (0.3 mg) extended-release (6 hours) melatonin supplement from Life Extension.

https://www.amazon.com/life-extension-melatonin-released-vegetarian/dp/b00cdabruw

Lastly, since I'm not a doctor and I don't know your full health history, be sure to consult with your doctor before making any changes to your current health regimen.

Best of luck. I hope you find something that helps.

Dude
_

Post Edited (The Dude Abides) : 12/4/2021 2:32:18 AM (GMT-7)

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getting by
Forum Moderator
Joined : Sep 2007
Posts : 45193
Posted 12/4/2021 10:00 AM (GMT -7)
Hi Dude,

Welcome to the depression support forum.

My husband's doctor told him to take his melatonin at 6:00 and go to bed around 10:00. So that is how he takes it.

Have a great weekend.

Hugs, Karen...
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ForeverPositive
Regular Member
Joined : Mar 2019
Posts : 376
Posted 12/4/2021 8:07 PM (GMT -7)
Thanks Dude. I never thought of getting check for sleep apnea which my dad has.

I never had much luck with melatonin. I wake up very groggy when I take it. Strangely enough, I also wake up exactly at 3am after taking melatonin, but I'm going to check out the one you listed and the podcast.
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The Dude Abides
Veteran Member
Joined : May 2017
Posts : 2500
Posted 12/11/2021 3:02 AM (GMT -7)
Hi, Karen. Thanks for the welcome. I'm primarily on the Lyme Disease board of this site, but sometimes browse the other boards to see if maybe I can offer anything useful.
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The Dude Abides
Veteran Member
Joined : May 2017
Posts : 2500
Posted 12/11/2021 3:03 AM (GMT -7)
You're welcome, ForeverPositive.

My apologies for the delayed reply. I never subscribe to forum threads, so I sometimes forget to check back on posts I've previously visited.

I have the same grogginess you mentioned (the hangover effect), when I take even 1.0 mg of melatonin. Recently, I read there are supposedly 0.1 mg melatonin supplements. But, thus far, I've not been able to find any. I'd considered cutting my 0.3 mg tablets in half, but that would likely affect their extended-release effects.

In THIS paper, it states:

"Serum melatonin concentrations vary considerably according to age. Infants younger than three months of age secrete very little melatonin. Melatonin secretion increases and becomes circadian in older infants, and the peak nocturnal concentrations are highest (average, 325 pg per milliliter [1400 pmol per liter]) at the age of one to three years, after which they decline gradually 10–15% per decade [11] (figure 4). In normal young adults, the average daytime and peak night time values are 10 and 60 pg per millilitre (40 and 260 pmol per liter), respectively [3]."

and...

"Oral doses (1 to 5 mg), which are now widely available in drugstores and food stores, result in serum melatonin concentrations that are 10 to 100 times higher than the usual night time peak within one hour after ingestion, followed by a decline to base-line values in four to eight hours. Very low oral doses (0.1 to 0.3 mg) given in the daytime result in peak serum concentrations that are within the normal night time range [12]."

Thus, since our bodies produce such tiny (picograms) amounts of the hormone, it's not surprising that we have grogginess at 1.0 mg levels and higher. Still, some people don't appear to suffer any obvious ill effects when taking 1 mg, 3 mg, 5 mg, and even 10 mg and higher doses. I'm very sensitive to many things, though.

Anyway, for most of us, when we're young, we're able to sleep just about anywhere. We would sleep deeply and without interruption. In the chart referenced above (Figure 4) in the first block of text I quoted, you can see the graphical representation of what happens to melatonin levels alone.

Then, in addition to melatonin levels dropping as we age, we have other responsibilities and concerns that accumulate -- our job/career, family/relationships, health, finances, and more. So, unfortunately, we can't necessarily expect to keep sleeping like we did in our youth. Perhaps some still do. I wish we all could do so.

Next, there are things impacting us now that we didn't have to worry about 50 years ago. We have a constant and endless supply of information (some correct, some incorrect, some a mixture of each, some awful, some really great, etc.) coming at us over television, radio, and the Internet via many more avenues like computers, smartphones, and smart watches to deliver websites/blogs, podcasts, YouTube, and "social" media (more like anti-social media) platforms like Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, and more.

I'm even seeing gas pumps with small screens built into them to play commercials. We're assaulted by media at nearly every turn. Even billboard have gone high-tech with animations and bright LED lights that hurt my eyes at night. We're all paying a price for these things, though it's difficult to quantify.

All of that to say we have to be proactive against a lot of these insults. While I'm not a fan of many of the aforementioned technologies, I also wouldn't go back in time 250 years and live under those conditions. Instead, I try to identify the various attempts to hijack my time, attention, and sleep. It's not always easy, because I personally love to spend time watching YouTube videos about all kinds of fascinating things. But, I have to impose limits on my "screen time," else I end up in a downward spiral -- mentally, physically, and emotionally.

The good news is that it's relatively easy to thwart some of the things that can negatively impact our sleep. A few things I employ are:

* The "f.lux" program on my Windows PC to reduce blue light (download free HERE)
* Blackout curtains on my bedroom window
* A sleep mask (I use THIS inexpensive one)
* Foam ear plugs (I use THESE inexpensive one)
* Small piece of duct tape over the LED light on the smoke detector in my bedroom
* No light-emitting devices in my bedroom (no TV, clock radio, cell phone, laptop, etc.)
* Totally dark bedroom
* Cool temperature when sleeping
* Nothing disruptive or jarring before bed (bright lights, news, loud music, big meals, etc.)
* After sunset, I try to rely on lamps (at or below eye-level) with low-watt amber bulbs
* Of course, the low-dose, extended-release melatonin I mentioned in my original post.

You get the idea. As you can see, these are simple, low-cost strategies that can be combined. There are others. When combining multiple strategies, I think they're much more beneficial. So, rather than 1 + 1 = 2, you may find that 1 + 1 = 5.

Should you need additional help and guidance, here's something to consider:

Go to Bed
https://www.thepaleomom.com/products/go-to-bed

You can read some background information on it at the following:

Announcing the launch of Go To Bed: 14 Easy Steps to Healthier Sleep!
https://www.thepaleomom.com/announcing-the-launch-of-go-to-bed-14-easy-steps-to-healthier-sleep

Why "Go to Bed"?
https://www.thepaleomom.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/why-go-to-bed-the-paleo-mom-4-18.pdf

Lastly -- and, perhaps most importantly -- please do speak with a doctor about whether you might have obstructive sleep apnea and/or central sleep apnea. The fact that your Dad has it should really convince you to explore the possibility.

If you do have it, the things I mentioned may not be terribly helpful. Certainly, you can try them, but it's better to treat the root cause rather than simply managing symptoms. Poor sleep can create a cascade of effects like weight gain, high blood pressure, memory issues, weakened immunity, and more.

Wishing you the best.

_

Post Edited (The Dude Abides) : 12/11/2021 9:35:28 AM (GMT-7)

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BnotAfraid
Forum Moderator
Joined : Apr 2012
Posts : 8833
Posted 12/12/2021 11:00 PM (GMT -7)
Welcome Dude!
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ForeverPositive
Regular Member
Joined : Mar 2019
Posts : 376
Posted 12/16/2021 8:16 PM (GMT -7)
Thanks Dude for the info!
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