cause of insulin resistance: sugar or fat? Plus, frustration with studies

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BillyBob@388
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Date Joined Mar 2014
Total Posts : 2583
   Posted 10/23/2017 3:29 PM (GMT -7)   
Hello guys,
This is my 1st time at this forum, I normally post over at the prostate cancer(PC or PCa) forum, where we often post about many OT subjects, including heart disease, blood sugar and the possible relationships of high insulin levels to PCa and other cancers. I am not actually diabetic- not yet at least- but I am very interested in the subject of insulin resistance/high blood insulin and it's possible relationship to cancer. Sometime the guys at the PC forum don't seem as interested in th subject of insulin as I am, and it finally occurred to me I should post some of this stuff at the diabetes forum. So here I am. Hopefully this is OK, and not too far OT? Well, I guess I will soon know! LOL!

So anyway, I just posted this over at PC forum, and I am going to repeat it here:
I am a fan of Dr. Greger's web site, so I occasionally post stuff from his website here. I do find much of his info regarding which plant foods might be best in the fight against PCa, cancer and overall health in general, to be quite interesting. But recently he has been on a kick saying the CAUSE of insulin resistance and diabetes(and all the related health problems that go with it of course) is dietary fat in general and most especially saturated fat. Mind you: not fat PLUS high carbs, but fat itself is the cause of insulin resistance which leads to diabetes which leads to heart disease and various cancers. And he has studies to back him up. Here is one example of what he has to say about this: /nutritionfacts.org/video/what-causes-insulin-resistance/

However, the idea that fat- and not carbs- causes insulin excess goes against what I have always been taught is the very reason for insulin and insulin spikes and finally insulin resistance/diabetes(i.e. insulin is generated #1 in response to rising blood sugar(carbs consumed), less so to protein, virtually not at all for fat).

Also, I have seen many studies over the years, including clinical trials, that indicate both blood sugar and insulin are markedly lower in response to the cutting carbs and increasing dietary fat. There are plenty of studies out there on this subject that seem to directly contradict what Dr. Greger is saying-and backing up with his studies. He is of course a gung ho vegan, and I have never seen a study on his web site contradicting his vegan stance, of course. Still, he does have his studies to back up his theories.

This is what is so frustrating about trying to learn anything by following the supposedly unbiased and scientific studies. I just don't see how studies done by reputable scientists can so frequently contradict each other! Can we really believe any of them? Very frustrating. Which is why I sometimes end up also going by personal experience( sometimes just mine, but some times the addition of friends experiences), especially when successful based on weight loss and blood tests, blood pressure, etc.

But here is my question: Why should I not believe this study(and of course many more like it)? What is there about this study that would make it inferior to the studies that show just the opposite of this one? This study is from UC Davis and SF, Indiana U school of Public Health, etc. Is there something that would make them not trustworthy? Would they have some bias causing them to want me to consume more fat and fewer carbs? That seems unlikely. Here is the link:
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3981696/

Here is a table from that study:
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3981696/table/pone-0091027-t003/

If you will look at that table, you will see that virtually every parameter improved or at a minimum was no worse on the high fat, low carb ketogenic diet(LCK) that did not restrict calories, vs the calorie restricted low fat, moderate carb diet(MCCR).

Particularly notable is that on the MCCR diet, blood sugar barely nudged down from 140 to 139, compared to dropping by 11 in the high fat group(who ate however much they wanted). More importantly, insulin increased by 10% from 10 to 11 in the MCCR group, but DROPPED 25% from 12 to 9 in the high fat group. And, also as important regarding insulin: 44% of the high fat group were able to discontinue one or more of their diabetes meds compared to only 11% of the low fat/low calorie group.

Unless these researchers are either lying or incompetent( I see no reason to think they are either), if(as Greger's studies claim) saturated fat is the cause of increased insulin and insulin resistance, how could these results be possible? Thanks in advance for your thought and comments. Especially regarding why I should believe Greger's reported studies instead of studies like these? Thank you all for any insight, even if you disagree with me!

Post Edited (BillyBob@388) : 10/24/2017 12:16:50 PM (GMT-6)


BillyBob@388
Veteran Member


Date Joined Mar 2014
Total Posts : 2583
   Posted 10/23/2017 3:33 PM (GMT -7)   
For those of a less technical bent, here is an article discussing and linking to the above study, which may or may not be biased:
www.drdeborahmd.com/ketogenic-diet-better-type-2-diabetes
Somebody said...
Ketogenic Diet Better for Type 2 Diabetes

Submitted by Dr. Deborah on April 26, 2014

A recent study (link is external) adds to the growing body of research evaluating low carbohydrate and very low carbohydrate diets. Working with a group of overweight and obese adults, all of whom qualified as either pre-diabetic or type 2 diabetics, researchers employed two different dietary strategies. Randomly assigned to either a standard American Diabetic Association diet (ADA: count your calories, keep fat low and carbohydrates moderate) or a low-carb diet designed to induce ketosis (LCK: very low in carbs, high in fat, and calories unrestricted), the participants were instructed and followed for three months.

Assessment at three months found a significant difference, with the LCK group enjoying a significant drop in their hemoglobin A1C, or overall blood sugar, reading. A far greater portion of the LCK group (44% vs 11%) were able to discontinue one or more of their diabetes medications, and lost 5.5 kg compared to 2.6 kg.

Overall a markedly superior outcome, in just 3 months, working with high risk patients. The LCK diet can present certain challenges that might require supervision by an experienced clinician but overall is taking home a lot of blue ribbons when compared to standard dietary interventions for fat loss, metabolic syndrome, and type 2 diabetes.

Post Edited (BillyBob@388) : 10/24/2017 12:17:47 PM (GMT-6)


Lanie G
Forum Moderator


Date Joined Nov 2006
Total Posts : 5966
   Posted 10/23/2017 6:59 PM (GMT -7)   
Interesting results but I really don't know what to say. Any fat, whether from vegetables or animals, will not raise blood sugar but all fat is not equal otherwise. Most doctors tell us to limit animal fat because of cholesterol mostly. Vegetable fats seem to be better for the heart. But all fat has more calories. What would a high fat diet look like? Are we talking about a lot of steaks or a lot of avocados? Different fats but they're both pretty high in calories. A steak generally won't raise blood sugar too much but an avocado will.

We need some fats in our diet. And protein and fiber and the nutrition from varied vegetables (greens included in this), nuts and seeds. I do know that we don't need grains. Any nutrient found in grains you can find in the variety of other food and since grains, whole or processed, do raise blood sugar, a diabetic should not be eating all the carbs suggested by the ADA. (Check out the link in my sig below. There are studies about how blood sugar over 140 for extended time will cause problems with: heart, eyes, kidneys, circulation.) But health complications may be an individual matter, too. We also need to consider genetics and lifestyle.

You might be interested in reading some of Gary Taubes books. He began basically as a science writer.

There are so many studies that contradict other studies that I've about given up reading about them, to be honest. However, I'm glad you posted!
Lanie

diabetes moderator
diabetes type 2 controlled by diet and exercise and
metformin
very low carb way of eating

Check out the following site for more info on blood sugar:
www.phlaunt.com/diabetes/

BillyBob@388
Veteran Member


Date Joined Mar 2014
Total Posts : 2583
   Posted 10/24/2017 11:09 AM (GMT -7)   
Thanks for the response, Lanie! I agree, what can you say. One study(along with many more I'm sure) says going to high fat/low carb does not raise blood sugar or insulin, meanwhile Dr. Greger has been saying the the cause of increased insulin leading to insulin resistance is saturated fat. I guess some one is wrong and some one is right. You say fat does not raise blood sugar, and I agree with you. Dr. Greger ( who wrote the book "How Not To Die" ) disagrees with both of us. And so do his studies. But I see your point about how many studies contradict other studies, makes you wonder why I even read them.

Re: calories, also notice that the high fat diet was not calorie restricted, but the low fat was also a low calorie diet. The high fat still lost a lot more weight, and did better in all diabetic related parameters like BS, HB1A, insulin, HOMA2-IR, triglycerides, etc.

BillyBob@388
Veteran Member


Date Joined Mar 2014
Total Posts : 2583
   Posted 10/24/2017 11:18 AM (GMT -7)   
Bad links fixed. If you were unable to follow those links, and are interested, please try again.
PSA 10.9 ~112013
Bx on 112013 at age ~65yrs, with 5 of 12 pos with one G9(5+4), 1 PNI, T2B.
RALP with lymph nodes at Vanderbilt 021914. (nodes clear, SV+, G9 down graded to 4+5, cut wide, but 1 tiny foci right at the edge of margin ) Pros. 106.7 gms!
At 15 months, not wearing a pad most days, mostly dry
PSA <.01 on 6/14 and all until 9/15 = .01, still .01 9/16, .02 on 3/17,6/17,10/17

Lanie G
Forum Moderator


Date Joined Nov 2006
Total Posts : 5966
   Posted 10/24/2017 7:50 PM (GMT -7)   
For me, the bottom line is what my blood sugar is and that determines what I eat. Type 2 runs in my family and I know that living with so-called acceptable blood sugar within the guidelines of the ADA will still result in diabetes complications. The following is from a page on the Blood Sugar 101 website which has a link in my signature: www.phlaunt.com/diabetes/15945839.php

Now, I don't eat a high fat diet. I would say it's a normal fat diet. I use butter and olive and canola oil for cooking. I eat all kinds of meat and fish, lots of different vegetables (both raw and cooked), olives and artichoke hearts, some cheese, yogurt, nuts, greens, some berries. I'm only on metformin which helps the body metabolize whatever carbs I eat. There are plenty of carbs in vegetables, yogurt, kefir, the berries, etc. that I eat and nutritionally, my diet is pretty complete although I do take a multi-vitamin and extra D3.

Here is the article from 15 years ago by Gary Taubes that introduced him to a wider audience when it was published in the NYT Magazine, What if It's All Been a Big Fat Lie?:www.nytimes.com/2002/07/07/magazine/what-if-it-s-all-been-a-big-fat-lie.html?_r=0

You might find that interesting and this was 15 years ago!
Lanie

diabetes moderator
diabetes type 2 controlled by diet and exercise and
metformin
very low carb way of eating

Check out the following site for more info on blood sugar:
www.phlaunt.com/diabetes/

theHTreturns...
Elite Member


Date Joined Mar 2009
Total Posts : 19898
   Posted 10/25/2017 5:07 AM (GMT -7)   
too many scientific studies, who is funding whom? we do need certain fats. however lanie makes perfect dietary sense.

Lanie G
Forum Moderator


Date Joined Nov 2006
Total Posts : 5966
   Posted 10/25/2017 7:29 AM (GMT -7)   
Hey there, Turtle! Good health and happiness! smile
Lanie

diabetes moderator
diabetes type 2 controlled by diet and exercise and
metformin
very low carb way of eating

Check out the following site for more info on blood sugar:
www.phlaunt.com/diabetes/

theHTreturns...
Elite Member


Date Joined Mar 2009
Total Posts : 19898
   Posted 10/25/2017 8:06 PM (GMT -7)   
gonna miss ya mate. my time is coming up too.

Lanie G
Forum Moderator


Date Joined Nov 2006
Total Posts : 5966
   Posted 10/26/2017 5:35 PM (GMT -7)   
Turtle? What do you mean?
Lanie

diabetes moderator
diabetes type 2 controlled by diet and exercise and
metformin
very low carb way of eating

Check out the following site for more info on blood sugar:
www.phlaunt.com/diabetes/

theHTreturns...
Elite Member


Date Joined Mar 2009
Total Posts : 19898
   Posted 10/28/2017 8:59 PM (GMT -7)   
dark place. soz. e-mailed shrink today.

Lanie G
Forum Moderator


Date Joined Nov 2006
Total Posts : 5966
   Posted 10/29/2017 7:21 AM (GMT -7)   
Not sure what's best now. A change of meds? Different therapy?
Lanie

diabetes moderator
diabetes type 2 controlled by diet and exercise and
metformin
very low carb way of eating

Check out the following site for more info on blood sugar:
www.phlaunt.com/diabetes/
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