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Lyme disease and Cancer

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Martha's Vineyard
Veteran Member
Joined : Jul 2008
Posts : 1119
Posted 12/2/2008 9:31 PM (GMT -8)
I read that they are not even able to tell what a tick has.
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Martha's Vineyard
Veteran Member
Joined : Jul 2008
Posts : 1119
Posted 12/2/2008 9:41 PM (GMT -8)
i have been told by 5 of the top infectous diseas expects in the country, that if a person test positive on the cdc test along with the
IGENEX test that they are positive. and those sort of people are sick and having to proof that they are indeed sick because many Dr.
do not find all of their symptoms relevant unless they cab back it up with the blood test. and the blod test are just there to help them get
treated. becuase most dr.s will push the sick client out the door calling them a hipocroniic.
so what everr helps someone make their case helps.
But all the Dr,s wanted a blook test to PROVE it.
The sick as hell patient;s complaints and ruinded carreers and divorces were not enough for them. Everyone gets told stupid things like....
eat better, don't work so hard, get a therapist....work less. On and on.

Ask Pamela who paid for all of the test. The Dr.s doing the study paid for it to make a point.
Yes I can believe everything that I read in Paamela's book, it is all doccumment. Try reading it before you critize it. She has ecellent crudentials
You dont have any.
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Martha's Vineyard
Veteran Member
Joined : Jul 2008
Posts : 1119
Posted 12/2/2008 9:42 PM (GMT -8)
Try reading a book before you critize it. Pamela is sharp. Oprah is reading her book.
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Razzle
Veteran Member
Joined : Aug 2007
Posts : 4415
Posted 12/3/2008 2:33 AM (GMT -8)
If you guys remember from Under Our Skin, the pathologist Dr. MacDonald said he found Lyme-human hybred cells in the brains of alzheimer's patients. This to me offers proof that Lyme can tweak cells enough to cause cancer given the right setting (immunosuppression, etc.).

The definition of Cancer offers some interesting comparisons with infections:

In Cancer, cells divide uncontrollably. Isn't this also a characteristic of the organism causing an infection?
In Cancer, the immune system is usually suppressed or compromised in some way. Isn't this also the case when one can't fight off an infection?
Cancer cells can be present despite no outward symptoms. Same can be true of infectious organisms (specifically thinking of the chicken pox virus, etc.). It is only when the number of cells affected by Cancer become large enough to create a noticeable difference that the person gets symptoms or abnormal test results, etc. Same could be said of infections - if the immune system is not able to keep the number of infectious organisms down, then the person will eventually discover symptoms of infection (redness, swelling, etc.).

I'm not saying all cancer is caused by infection. I do agree there are hereditary and other environmental factors also. But isn't that also the case with infections? Don't heredity and environmental factors also play a role in the strength of the immune system and subsequently, the ability of the body to fight an infection?

Just my $.02.........
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Deejavu
Veteran Member
Joined : Aug 2005
Posts : 4771
Posted 12/3/2008 4:06 AM (GMT -8)
Morning all,

What I don't understand is how come everyone who is posting isn't concentrating on positive thoughts and getting better from Lyme instead of thinking about cancer and negative diseases or thoughts.

The mind is a powerful tool and everyone has the "choice" to either think positive or negative..   In my opinion, even talking about cancer is soooooo negative.. 

Get better from lyme disease first and then research cancer if one is so darn interested.   I only researched it because of my baby brother.

That's my 10 cents (inflation).

Denise

profile picture
needshelp
Regular Member
Joined : Aug 2008
Posts : 227
Posted 12/3/2008 4:19 AM (GMT -8)
With all due respect to the other posters. A variety of microbial and viral infections have been linked to neurological diseases (including the one I study for a living). Bacterial infections directly causing cancer (i.e. the root cause) is not well accepted by most scientists. I agree with Deejavu....lets focus on getting rid of the Lyme. Then it will be a mute point.
profile picture
peacesoul
Veteran Member
Joined : Jan 2007
Posts : 2446
Posted 12/3/2008 5:51 AM (GMT -8)

Martha's Vineyard said...
i have been told by 5 of the top infectous diseas expects in the country, that if a person test positive on the cdc test along with the
IGENEX test that they are positive. and those sort of people are sick and having to proof that they are indeed sick because many Dr.
do not find all of their symptoms relevant unless they cab back it up with the blood test. and the blod test are just there to help them get
treated. becuase most dr.s will push the sick client out the door calling them a hipocroniic.
so what everr helps someone make their case helps.
But all the Dr,s wanted a blook test to PROVE it.
The sick as hell patient;s complaints and ruinded carreers and divorces were not enough for them. Everyone gets told stupid things like....
eat better, don't work so hard, get a therapist....work less. On and on.

Ask Pamela who paid for all of the test. The Dr.s doing the study paid for it to make a point.
Yes I can believe everything that I read in Paamela's book, it is all doccumment. Try reading it before you critize it. She has ecellent crudentials
You dont have any.

What are the names of these dr's?
How do you know they are the top in their field?
And how did you get to speak to them?

If a person tests + on the CDC. Are you and Pamela saying that 60% of patients in mental hops's were tested + by the cdc?


And what # represents 60% of NY patients in mental hosp?

 

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rileydog
Regular Member
Joined : Jul 2008
Posts : 49
Posted 12/3/2008 11:33 AM (GMT -8)
 

Here's my .02....

Envita is here in Scottsdale, as am I.  I have spent thousands already and was looking into Envita.  They have quite an impressive website, and when I called someone spent over 30 minutes just talking to me about their treatment which I found to be very kind.  However, after a lot of research on them and reviewing them, I sadly came to the opinion (my opinion here), that they're just another company taking advantage of people at their wits end to get healed and feel normal again.

One of the things I found very interesting is that they even take the time to note in their newsletter that bloggers were pretending to be patients and saying negative things about them.  I wondered.... why would a reputable medical facility be watching blogs anyhow?  Then I thought, if they're taking the time to list that and warn people not to believe all they read on a blog, why wouldn't they post on blogs themselves pretending to be patients that are making huge recovery with them, convincing others that they too should drop tens of thousands of dollars there.  Now we're being told that all their cancer patients have lyme?  And they must treat the lyme before the cancer?  As much as those of us suffering with lyme feel so lost and life can seem almost unbearable at times, last I checked, they're are more actual death cases from cancer than lyme, and certain cancer moves incredibly quick.  Would they actually take the chance of the speed of cancer to treat a bacteria first?  I don't understand that one.  Nor do I care too. 

Perhaps I'm jaded, perhaps a snob, possibly I've just lived too closely to complusive lying to believe everything at face value, but I have a really difficult time believing such claims, and especially when the stated claims have so many grammatical and spelling errors that I feel brain-dead after reading them. 

Namaste~

Post Edited (rileydog) : 12/3/2008 1:30:23 PM (GMT-7)

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SamplerSharon
New Member
Joined : Oct 2007
Posts : 9
Posted 12/3/2008 12:52 PM (GMT -8)

rileydog said...


Here's my .02....




Perhaps I'm jaded, perhaps a snob, possibly I've just lived too closely to complusive lying to believe everything at face value, but I have a really difficult time believing such claims, and especially when the stated claims have so many grammatical and spelling errors that I feel brain-dead after reading them.



Namaste~


Delurking to respond here.

I must admit that I agree with you, rileydog.

While I am not a frequent poster on this Forum, I do read it regularly. I have especially appreciated the caring nature of the Lyme patients here. Some of the information shared by the active posters has been very helpful to me and I thank you all.

I just want to say, though, that I get incredibly frustrated when I see posts that are written with an apparent alarmist tone -- much like the original post in this thread appeared to me. Posts that are pounded out on a keyboard seemingly without thought or care, giving the impression of loose-lipped, sloppy thinkers is not really conducive to the healing environment that I understand this Forum and website tries to achieve.

These same posts also seem to contain alot of supposition and partial or garbled facts which leads one to wonder whether they are actually just distorted claims manufactured from whole cloth. It's just hard to take the contents of that post and therefore the information on the Forum as a whole seriously.

Given that researchers and LLMD's have admitted in published articles as well as other media forms that, of all the pathogenic bacteria discovered to date, borrelia burgdorferi is one of the most complex and difficult bacterium to treat, I wouldn't doubt that certain cancers "might" be involved for a portion of the populace. To date, however, so much is unknown and yet to be researched.

I certainly have experienced my fair share of cognitive dysfunction. I've developed temporary dyslexia at times only to have it leave as fast as it arrived. Typing and formulating thoughts to post on a Forum on some days for me is impossible (especially during Lyme flares).

Let's face it, for many of us Lymies, concentration, focus and critical thinking skills can be greatly diminished at times.

But, I guess I would just hope that folks would be a little more careful when they post some information.

Martha's Vineyard, I apologize if I seem ornery here. I recall a post you wrote not too long ago to someone here telling them that their Lyme treatment with antibiotics would kill them. Yet, now you admit you are receiving antibiotics. And prior to that, you posted a whirlwind post about how you were healing and practically well just from taking colloidal silver. Yet, now, you aren't well.

Perhaps I'm misreading your intent and if the misunderstanding is mine, then I apologize up front.

But, please, could we try and be more careful about how stuff is posted?!

SamplerS

p.s. Peacesoul, for what it's worth, a rather large portion of Pam's book is devoted to discussing Lyme testing and how problematic it is. In fact her work is the best I certainly have read so far on Lyme Disease. She goes into scientific detail on precisely why the testing is so problematic. She's also got the credentials to back up her work and the book is referenced and sourced. I imagine that you'd really like the book. Since Pam is a scientific journalist with a lot of gravitas, I personally think her book is perfectly suited for educating doctors.

I gave a copy of her book to one of my non-lyme literate doctors. He later told me that he could not put the book down -- stayed up all night reading it. Just loved it and learned a great deal to boot.

Post Edited (SamplerSharon) : 12/3/2008 2:34:08 PM (GMT-7)

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peacesoul
Veteran Member
Joined : Jan 2007
Posts : 2446
Posted 12/3/2008 4:18 PM (GMT -8)
Sharon, great post

If it's true that this Pam is claiming that 60% of patients in NY mental hosp's have lyme, then she would need to back that claim up with solid proof. If she can't and is causing hysteria like many other lyme "people", then that is irresponsible.

I'm sure she has a ton of good info in her book, but I won't read it. I'm worn out from reading and researching about lyme

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SamplerSharon
New Member
Joined : Oct 2007
Posts : 9
Posted 12/3/2008 4:52 PM (GMT -8)
Peacesoul,

Well, I can certainly understand the experience of Lyme research burnout. I can totally relate to that! lol

As to the discussion about 60% of patients in NY mental hospitals pulling positive on Lyme testing, I'm afraid I can't speak to that particular issue. I'm afraid I don't recall that portion in Pam's book and I'm frankly too tired to go look it up.

I've only read the book twice. The work is chock full of facts and for someone like me, I really need to read it a number of times for all of it to sink in. Processing information sometimes takes a bit longer with my 'ole Lymed brain at the moment.

I can honestly say though, that my overall impression from reading Pam's book, listening to a few of her lectures, and seeing her work as senior editor of Discover magazine, editor-in-chief of OMNI and consulting editor for Psychology Today, that she would have too much to loose professionally to be journalistically irresponsible.

Her scientific investigative journalism was solid in "Cure Unknown." She is not irresponsible.

I personally think what Pam did was Herculean. There is SO much factual information in that volume. And, according to Pam, that book is the result of nearly seven years of hard work and research. The book is definitive. That's probably why you're seeing people try to regurgitate some of the info and share it.

I think if there is any irresponsibility at all here, it might be an unfortunate consequence of careless posting or "Lymed or exhausted brains" on the part of poster(s) here. Kind of what I was trying to elude to in my post above and kind of what you've eluded to as well.

Perhaps Martha's Vineyard would be willing to break down what she posted about the NY mental hospital patients in Pam's book. Perhaps she could include a page reference for dummies like me who can't even remember that portion. And perhaps she can include some quotes from the book on that issue. Random statistics and assumptions just is not what that book is about and that's not how a scientific investigative journalist works.

SamplerS

Post Edited (SamplerSharon) : 12/3/2008 6:07:12 PM (GMT-7)

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alfers
Veteran Member
Joined : May 2005
Posts : 2671
Posted 12/3/2008 5:49 PM (GMT -8)
SamplerSharon, you've made me want to read the book now! I too am a bit tired of lyme researching, so I wasn't reading the book because of that, but I think I will now. I just feel like there is SO much information out there that doctors continue to ignore, and I can't make sense of this problem no matter how much I read. So I've kind of thrown up my hands to the whole thing and I try not to think about it. I don't know if you saw my post last week, but I recently saw a really intelligent and highly respected rheumatologist (who happens to be a friend of the family) who told me straight up (in a very kind way) that she has done a lot of reading and has come to the conclusion that chronic lyme doesn't exist. It just doesn't make sense to me that she (and others) can continue to think this when they HAVE really looked into the issue. So that's why I'm fed up. But I do think I'll read the book. :) Thanks for posting!
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peacesoul
Veteran Member
Joined : Jan 2007
Posts : 2446
Posted 12/4/2008 8:39 AM (GMT -8)

SamplerSharon said...
Peacesoul,


I think if there is any irresponsibility at all here, it might be an unfortunate consequence of careless posting or "Lymed or exhausted brains" on the part of poster(s) here. Kind of what I was trying to elude to in my post above and kind of what you've eluded to as well.

Perhaps Martha's Vineyard would be willing to break down what she posted about the NY mental hospital patients in Pam's book. Perhaps she could include a page reference for dummies like me who can't even remember that portion. And perhaps she can include some quotes from the book on that issue. Random statistics and assumptions just is not what that book is about and that's not how a scientific investigative journalist works.

SamplerS

My thoughts exaclty
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Martha's Vineyard
Veteran Member
Joined : Jul 2008
Posts : 1119
Posted 12/4/2008 4:00 PM (GMT -8)
I thought is was worth mentioning that every person that is being treated for cancer at the clinic has tested positive for lyme.
Just a fact. Take it as you will. But none of them knew that they had lyme. They had never been treated for the lyme...till
now.
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Martha's Vineyard
Veteran Member
Joined : Jul 2008
Posts : 1119
Posted 12/4/2008 4:21 PM (GMT -8)
wow. Okay so I need to be more careful about my spelling. Lol tough crowd. You see when you get lyme about 3 times
and are getting 6 hours of IV treament a day, one does not and can not spell so well.
So if it bothers you, skip me.
Can't even remember who told me that I was not well. But...lol.Yes I am much better. I got one of my daughters back,
and I am able to care for her and actually do my bills. Before I could not drive a car and could not finish a sentence. And
was going to be commited. So, yes I am doing much better.
I was only recently diagonsed with a co-infection. So they put me on a abx. I was totally scolded by my MD for taking
huge doses of only abx and was in big touble for getting treated in Germany. But oh well, trying to keep ones kids
stay alive were worth anything at the time.
I have had 4 people on this site write to me and they were very upset that they were diagonsed with Lyme and Cancer
at the same time. And they were all told that they had to get rid of the lyme first. This I thought was absurd. But I am
not a Dr. so they asked me for a good Lyme Dr. and I told them to ask the forum person.
Pamelas Book scared me. I had to finish it in one day. Because I wanted to see if it had a happy ending. It does not.
I high lighted it and book marked it with red tabs. It looks like it is growing. I don't even want to look at it again. It
is not good to read if learning a bunch of scary facts makes you feel worse.
And this I understand doe not ride well with some people. Sorry if my post scared you or make you feel bad. I for
one have to read everything out there. I have to know what I am dealing with. With two sick kids with their little blue
eyes looking at me for help, yes I must seem like a rhino is a china shop...lol
For this I am sorry. I actaully am a very positive person, and do think that this political lyme bubble is going to pop
very soon.
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popsnannersx3
New Member
Joined : Dec 2008
Posts : 2
Posted 12/4/2008 4:24 PM (GMT -8)
As you all can tell we are new to this forum. My husband was dx with Lymes last week. He had been suffering from pain in his joints for 3 months and has no energy at all. A lot of the pain we thought was due from his motorcycle wreck a year ago and long going trouble from Viet Nam service injuries. The doctor put him on Doxycline 100 mg 2 x a day. His question is could this effect his breathing. He does suffer from COPD. He is 60 years old. How long will it take for him to start feeling better? Anyone who has been through this could you tell us please. I know everyone is different and how long it takes for one person make take another time for another. Also, will bouts from this finding always keep cropping up in years to come? Any help would be greatly appreciated. We live in Indiana.
Thank You so much as we are quite concerned and the doctor doesn't seem to know much about this disease.
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Martha's Vineyard
Veteran Member
Joined : Jul 2008
Posts : 1119
Posted 12/4/2008 4:38 PM (GMT -8)
Riley dog,

[Post edited by moderator: Riley dog was stating his/her opinion above, which was clearly indicated. Please do not put down others, even if you do not agree with their opinions.]

Feel free to write me directly and ask me anything. I know everyone there very well and have the up most respect for
all of them.
I am only sorry that these clinic are not all over the place to help everyone. Because most cannot move in their condition
to Az. Much less get out of bed.
If I can find a way to get others this treatment that I am getting by fund raising I will.
I would be more than happy to let you know who I am and all about me. I stand by these people and the wonderful
things that they are doing for sick people. Most of the people do not have any money that are at the clinic.
They have been ruined by their other Dr.s and the run around and the darn Insurance compaines who have dumped them.
I could not afford the LLMD to save myself and my kids at one million dollars. So I went looking for a way to cure the
sick that was out of the box, so that others could get treated as well.

Post Edited By Moderator (alfers) : 12/4/2008 7:54:43 PM (GMT-7)

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Martha's Vineyard
Veteran Member
Joined : Jul 2008
Posts : 1119
Posted 12/4/2008 4:47 PM (GMT -8)
oh and dog,
there is a bit of a witch hunt going on out there for dr.s who are treating lyme. anyone who is giving out more than 14
days of doxy are getting into the red with the USDA, and the FDA and the CDC and just look at what Blue Cross did to
a couple of Dr.s. who dared treat sick people, they sued the dr.s for over 100 million dollars.
So why do you think someone would not look into what was being said about them on the web? Good or bad? Like you for example
When I first wrote about them and their great bed side manner and my treatment, over 28,000 people read that post. So is it valid, yes
I would say.
Besides everyone on here knows that Envitia is in Az by now. I have been talking about it for 2 mos. I am the lab rat
from MV who is out to save her kids and many others for that matter.
Mountains do not get moved by thinking positive thoughts. They get moved my a whole bunch of people pushing hard.

[Post edited by moderator: again, rileydog was stating an opinion, not actually accusing anyone of fraud. Please review this particular forum rule: No posts that attack, insult, "flame", defame, or abuse members or non-members. Respect other members of the community and don’t belittle, make fun off, or insult another member or non-member. Decisions about health and well-being are highly personal, individual choices. "Flaming" and insults, however, will not be tolerated. Agree to disagree. This applies to both the forums and chat.]

Post Edited By Moderator (alfers) : 12/4/2008 7:57:18 PM (GMT-7)

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Martha's Vineyard
Veteran Member
Joined : Jul 2008
Posts : 1119
Posted 12/4/2008 5:43 PM (GMT -8)
Jealian
Sorry to hear about your ovary issue, did you find out what it was? Did your gyno find it? I had the same scare at Holloween.
They found some big growth. But it was nothing after all. Are you in pain? Don't fret, I am not trying to scare you, you are
way ahead of the game and you are fighting your lyme. The people that I have spoken to did not ever get treated. ever. I
just thought it was odd. But it did change my idea about how I am going to have my kids treated. I am going to go after it, lyme,
more agressively.
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Martha's Vineyard
Veteran Member
Joined : Jul 2008
Posts : 1119
Posted 12/4/2008 5:49 PM (GMT -8)
Post edited. Again, refer to the following rule:
No posts that attack, insult, "flame", defame, or abuse members or non-members. Respect other members of the community and don’t belittle, make fun off, or insult another member or non-member. Decisions about health and well-being are highly personal, individual choices. "Flaming" and insults, however, will not be tolerated. Agree to disagree. This applies to both the forums and chat.

Post Edited By Moderator (alfers) : 12/4/2008 7:58:19 PM (GMT-7)

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Martha's Vineyard
Veteran Member
Joined : Jul 2008
Posts : 1119
Posted 12/4/2008 6:04 PM (GMT -8)
Karen,
I don't have the "Cure Unknown" with me in AZ. I only read it twice. And thought that was interesting about the menntal
wards.
I think it is great that some Dr.s took the time to test people who had been commited for " losing it" who were actually
just suffering from Lyme.
I seem to talk to a lot of people on this forum who think that they are losing their minds.
I must admit that when I could not remember what kind of car I had when I left the grocery store that I thought I was
was losing it as well.
And when I forgot how to drive while on the freeway, yes I thought I was losing it again.
But making progess in my treatement I now see that I did not lose anything, it was hidden from me.
I posted on the Azlthemers page that I was told that I was getting it. And that it all went away with my treatment. so far.
I did not get my head taken off for sharing my story or information. It may sound negative. But if someones child
is put into a mental institution and not tested for Lyme in the right lab, or if a older person is just written off, and
away for the Azlthemiers and not treated for lyme. I think that knowledge is power and can saves some children lives and
their grandparents too.
I don't have the energy to spell check, sorry. I have a jungle gym hanging off of my chest and a very sick 5 year old
who just for out of surgery today.
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peacesoul
Veteran Member
Joined : Jan 2007
Posts : 2446
Posted 12/4/2008 6:37 PM (GMT -8)

Martha's Vineyard said...
Peaceful soal. your name does not fit your post. but I am suprised that you said that you would not read another informative
book about lyme. yet anytime that a fact is posted you want to argue about it. It is hard to agrue with someone
who chosses to remain ignorant. So I won't.
And I am confused, is it not you that wants to be a Dr. of some sort? How do you plan to do this without reading?
Just a question.

Really and why does my nick name not fit my post? Because I am asking you questions you can't answer?


Many people here know me well and can tell you, my nick name fits me perfectly. Flaming a member is unacceptable and uncalled for.

I can guarantee I am a lot more lyme literate that most, including you. I've read more than enough research and books on lyme. Because I did not read one book does not mean I'm "ignorant".

And I'm not going to be a dr but am working towards my naturopathic certificate. I left a high paying job to go back to school so I can help others with lyme. What are you doing for the lyme cause beside causing hysteria?

And now that I answered your question. I'm still waiting for you to answer mine.
Who are these dr's who were top IDS and how did you get to speak to them?

Where in Pam's book does it say 60% of mental patients were dx + with lyme?

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rileydog
Regular Member
Joined : Jul 2008
Posts : 49
Posted 12/5/2008 11:25 AM (GMT -8)
Martha if you could answer peacesouls post above that would be great.

Also, question, I thought you had said that Envita was costing you approx $8000.00 for a month of treatment? If the people there have no money, how are they paying for such services? I know you live in a million dollar home and are staying at the Four Seasons, so that may not be an issue for you, but for most, it is almost impossible.
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JELAINEP
Veteran Member
Joined : Sep 2007
Posts : 2017
Posted 12/5/2008 1:04 PM (GMT -8)

Martha's Vineyard said...
Jealian

Sorry to hear about your ovary issue, did you find out what it was? Did your gyno find it? 

Are you in pain?

Left ovary - some problems... something there that is "big".  Repeat due to irregular periods.... It's probably just an ovarian cyst or something like that........I'm all up for removal, maybe I'll lose a few pounds - haha.

peacesoul - I'm sure it's not cancer - shocked smhair eyes rolleyes

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peacesoul
Veteran Member
Joined : Jan 2007
Posts : 2446
Posted 12/7/2008 5:41 AM (GMT -8)

rileydog said...
Martha if you could answer peacesouls post above that would be great.

The non reply is the answer......which speaks loud and clear to me

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123


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