Razzzzzzle question on last post

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blessings723
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Date Joined Oct 2009
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   Posted 10/23/2009 4:46 PM (GMT -7)   
I have a friend whose NK cells are low- these are very important cells-as they prevent autoimmunity. I am wondering how many other lymies have been tested to check for this or can recall having this tested- Cajungrl are you familiar with this? Thanks everyone for your responses.  We are just very curious for some answers as she has not been able to get hold of a doctor all day.  Thanks again! turn


I refuse to stay sick! Period. 
 
 

Post Edited (finding721) : 11/11/2009 4:17:09 PM (GMT-7)


+Lyme
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Date Joined Apr 2009
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   Posted 10/23/2009 9:48 PM (GMT -7)   
Finding: I have had a CD57 test done -- these measure certain killer cells unique to Lyme and perhaps HIV.

Is this the test that your friend had? Mine was 60 which is the lowest w/in 'normal' range. However, many LLMDs consider this 'score' to be too low -- I think it should be quite a bit higher. Many LLMDs say they want to see numbers quite a bit higher. And I have read that a score of 60 is common w/ chronic lyme.

If you could find out the name/type of test and post the results here, we could offer opinions, altho, of course, we cannot diagnose lyme. But we could advise that this is one of the symptoms of lyme.

OK, i'm out of it and going to bed....
Bit 1972: Acute and chronic tonsillitis, UTI, miscarraige, appendicitis, hypoglycemia,  chronic neck pain w/ crushed vertibrae, chronic severe back pain, mitral valve prolapse, depression, resolution?
Bit Mother's Day 2007: Lyme, Babesia microti, hypothyroidism, EBV, HHV6, Parvovirus B19, low adrenals &misc other hormones, depression, anxiety, more of the above.
What don't these nasty bugs cause? 
CD57= 60, so we're in pretty good shape.
 


strongmom
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Date Joined Aug 2009
Total Posts : 79
   Posted 10/23/2009 10:17 PM (GMT -7)   
I read about a CD57 test done with controls, including HIV patients, and according to the study, the CD57 is not at all associated with HIV but was proven to be specifically related to Lyme when levels are low, and below 60.

blessings723
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Date Joined Oct 2009
Total Posts : 289
   Posted 10/24/2009 12:30 AM (GMT -7)   
thanks for the responses-hopefully she will be able to post the results here. I think she posted about this earlier but didn't get many responses so that is why i wanted to post. Doesn't anyone wonder why this is linked between HIV and Lyme?? Is it possible that lyme is no different than eventually having AIDS? I mean if our killer t cells are that low than how are we supposed to fight off anything? I myself have been tested for HIV at least 5 times. The reason i was tested so many was because i had a "false positive" show up after the birth of my daughter. I kept re testing months later to make sure this wasn't HIV. Every test including western blots came back negative but that made me wonder about other viruses or illnesses that could look like HIV. I now have pinned down many of my symptoms to Lyme. My friend tested positive for Lyme so is sure she has this hopefully she will post here soon! But again i am curious does anyone out there think that maybe the reason it is hard to get better is because this an "autoimmune" thing?
I refuse to stay sick! Period. 
 
 


Razzle
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Date Joined Aug 2007
Total Posts : 4399
   Posted 10/24/2009 2:37 AM (GMT -7)   
The Lyme bacteria themselves have the ability to disable the immune system. The specific NK cells, CD57, known to be affected by Lyme are not known to be affected by anything else except maybe AIDS. CD57 NK cells are not usually tested for - the standard lymphocyte subsets panel that checks NK cell counts only considers CD56 NK cells. But in AIDS, the CD4 T-cell count is the primary indicator of disease activity. This is not known to be the case with Lyme. Most people with Lyme have normal CD4 counts. NK cells and CD4 cells are different types of T-cells.

I hope this helps...
-Razzle
Chronic Lyme Disease, Chronic Bartonella (clinical dx only), Gluten & Sulfite Sensitivity, Many Food/Inhalant/Medication/Chemical Allergies & Intolerances, Asthma, Gut issues (dysmotility, non-specific inflammation), UCTD ("Secondary Lupus-Like Syndrome"), Osteoporosis, chronic Lymphopenia, etc.; G-Tube; Currently trying to wean off TPN.
Meds:  Pulmicort, IV Ceftazidime, Heparin (to flush PICC line), Claritin, Domperidone, Colloidal Silver (used topically), probiotics, Milk Thistle, Ailanthus, homeopathy.


georgiagirl
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Date Joined Oct 2007
Total Posts : 1172
   Posted 10/25/2009 6:50 AM (GMT -7)   
Hey finding, Thanks for this post.
I have had 2 CD57 tests that were normal (280 and 252) through Lab Corp. The test that i'm concerned about is the CD56. Normal would be (106-451) and (5-23). Mine was low (43) and (1). My immunologist said that these cells cannot be replaced but she did not go into details. It was a very short phone conversation. Maybe I should call her back....
Thank you all for the information.
GG

blessings723
Regular Member


Date Joined Oct 2009
Total Posts : 289
   Posted 11/11/2009 4:12 PM (GMT -7)   
Razzle, raising the dead= i know this was light years ago but i wanted to ask is a CD4 a test just like CD 57 and 56? If it is can i request this test from any doctor? I find it so creepy how Lyme and AIDS often have a few things in common. Here is my creepy story- after i had my daughter I was slightly HIV positive so they did a western blot- (during pregnancy i tested negative for any STDs) Everyone kept assuring me it was likely fals positive b/c we did not fit the bill -no blood transfusions, no needles etc..and a faithful marriage- anyway, the western blot came back negative so i waited 3 mths and tested again- negative, and then 1 time again about 6mths later and was still negative...but the slight positive really made me wonder if something else might be going on...and then when i started coming down with crazy symptoms that led me eventually here. Can a person get AIDS without HIV??

Thanks for your help Razzle you've certainly done your research! :)
I refuse to stay sick! Period. 
 
 


Razzle
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Date Joined Aug 2007
Total Posts : 4399
   Posted 11/11/2009 11:23 PM (GMT -7)   
Yes, any MD can request a CD4 test, but a more comprehensive test is the Lymphocyte Subsets Panel, which includes Total Lymphocytes, Total B-Cells (CD19), Total T-Cells (CD 3), Total CD4+ T-Cells, Total CD8+ T-Cells, Total CD56 NK Cells (Does NOT include CD57 - that is a separate test), and CD4:CD8 Ratio (Aids patients usually have a low ratio).

Lyme is a chronic infection, just as AIDS/HIV is. And both organisms (Bb and HIV) are capable of disabling the immune system. This is why there are some similarities. However, I do not believe Lyme specifically targets CD4+ T-Cells the way HIV does.

Can a person without HIV get AIDS? Well, what is AIDS? It is literally an Acquired Immune Deficiency Syndrome. If you are solely looking at the acronym AIDS, then many things can cause acquired immune impairment (including Lyme, environmental toxins, nutritional deficiencies, etc.). However, medical science only recognizes HIV as the cause of the officially diagnosable "AIDS." Other immune deficiency syndromes exist, but not as much is known about them (most are considered to be rare hereditary disorders). Not many MD's go around having all their patients' Lymphocyte Subsets & CD57 tested...I think more would be learned if they did.

about the "false positive" HIV test, it could have been a lab error (contamination of your sample, improper technique, problems with chemicals used for the test, etc.). I wouldn't worry about it if I were you - I think it is better to spend effort on making sure you are doing what you are able to tolerate in terms of immune system support as you also battle the Lyme.

I hope this is helpful. Feel free to ask more questoins. Good luck & take care,
-Razzle
Chronic Lyme Disease, Chronic Bartonella (clinical dx only), Gluten & Sulfite Sensitivity, Many Food/Inhalant/Medication/Chemical Allergies & Intolerances, Asthma, Gut issues (dysmotility, non-specific inflammation), UCTD ("Secondary Lupus-Like Syndrome"), Osteoporosis, chronic Lymphopenia, etc.; G-Tube; Currently trying to wean off TPN.
Meds:  Pulmicort, IV Ceftazidime, Heparin (to flush PICC line), Claritin, Domperidone, Colloidal Silver (used topically), probiotics, Milk Thistle, Ailanthus, homeopathy.


blessings723
Regular Member


Date Joined Oct 2009
Total Posts : 289
   Posted 11/12/2009 4:10 PM (GMT -7)   
Razzle, thank you for your response, I guess i was worried about the fact that i am highly positive for epstein barr and cytomegavirus- and i read these go along with AIDS- as do some of my other symptoms- weight loss, etc. I am spooked by the similarities and yet i cant get in to a doctor fast enough to do extra testing. Maybe i dont have HIV but i worry that my body is already in an AIDS like state so i am quickly trying to find a gp willing to run tests. It bothers me that treatment seems weeks away- all i'm doing right now is vit C and other natural things. I am literally falling apart at the seems here. I don't know how to do this anymore- I really wish i had someon here during the day with me and my kids. Anyway thank you for your answers. Do you mind if i email you? are you up to phone conversation? Thanks again.
I refuse to stay sick! Period. 
 
 


blessings723
Regular Member


Date Joined Oct 2009
Total Posts : 289
   Posted 11/12/2009 4:35 PM (GMT -7)   
Other question i just thought of- wouldn't normal bloodwork like cbc or other normal tests be wack if someone had AIDS or HIV? just wondering because my cbc is normal, normal white blood cells and red, as is metabolic panel, my lymphs are normal too
I refuse to stay sick! Period. 
 
 


CajunGrl
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Date Joined Mar 2009
Total Posts : 4717
   Posted 11/12/2009 5:14 PM (GMT -7)   
I thought HIV is what caused one to aquire AIDS. I've read that it's the virus(HIV) that breaks down the immune system and causes the immune deficiencies.

Lyme Disease can also break down the immune system.
**You never know how STRONG you are....until being STRONG is the ONLY choice you have**

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Co-Moderator Lyme Disease Forum


blessings723
Regular Member


Date Joined Oct 2009
Total Posts : 289
   Posted 11/12/2009 8:52 PM (GMT -7)   
It is I just always manage to find something new to get wrapped up in- i found a few articles connecting lyme and AIDS and now i can't find them but wikipedia's description of AIDS includes mention of epstein barr and cytomegavirus and that was enough to get me going. I suppose it is the potential of lyme to put me in an "AIDS" like state that has me concerned. But by now you guys know EVERYTHING has me concerned. Wasn't it just the other day i was asking about ALS? Anyway if i find those articles I will post them.
I refuse to stay sick! Period. 
 
 


Razzle
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Date Joined Aug 2007
Total Posts : 4399
   Posted 11/12/2009 11:24 PM (GMT -7)   
finding,

Yes, go ahead and email me - make sure you put HealingWell in the subject so I know where I "met" you. As for phoning, I'm not good for that - somehow I can't seem to keep up with the conversation, and forget what's said after hanging up...I'm blaming it on Lyme, LOL.

I know of many who have EBV/CMV and who do not have HIV...

Since your WBC count is normal and your lymphocyte count is normal, if I were you I wouldn't be concerned about having HIV... HIV creates noticeable drops in WBC and lymphocyte counts.

CajunGrl,

You are right - officially, only HIV causes AIDS. However, there are other conditions that can create a similar scenario with the immune system suppression - Lyme is one, but there are others as well (see my post above where I get into this in a little more detail).

Take care,
-Razzle
Chronic Lyme Disease, Chronic Bartonella (clinical dx only), Gluten & Sulfite Sensitivity, Many Food/Inhalant/Medication/Chemical Allergies & Intolerances, Asthma, Gut issues (dysmotility, non-specific inflammation), UCTD ("Secondary Lupus-Like Syndrome"), Osteoporosis, chronic Lymphopenia, etc.; G-Tube; Currently trying to wean off TPN.
Meds:  Pulmicort, IV Ceftazidime, Heparin (to flush PICC line), Claritin, Domperidone, Colloidal Silver (used topically), probiotics, Milk Thistle, Ailanthus, homeopathy.


blessings723
Regular Member


Date Joined Oct 2009
Total Posts : 289
   Posted 11/13/2009 12:07 AM (GMT -7)   
I figured my regular bloodwork would be off if this had gotten really ugly- Thank you Razzle-I need all the info i can get, and it is encouraging to know many people have these viruses, I keep forgetting i'm really not an island all on my own- anyway it stands to reason then we should fight this mess like mad b/c I for one don't want to be without any immune system at all. I'm a blessed in the fact that i am not required to go out and be exposed to things as much as i would be if i didn't have a husband or parents close at hand. Even doctor visits concern me now. I have my hand sanitizer out as soon as we step out the door. Here's one i just thought of- if lyme "disables" our immnue system then how does it know to use the vit C or can it even still use the vit C?
And this swine flu mess- can lymies even survive that? I cant help wondering if its very purpose is to wipe out all the lymies!  smhair okay maybe as one of my co-infections they should say "chronic negativity"
 
I get the feeling that vit C question is beyond newbie "dumbness".  Honestly I really didn't used to know or care much about how my body worked. Now i'm paying for it!



I refuse to stay sick! Period. 
 
 

Post Edited (finding721) : 11/13/2009 12:19:04 AM (GMT-7)


Razzle
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Date Joined Aug 2007
Total Posts : 4399
   Posted 11/13/2009 3:40 AM (GMT -7)   
The only stupid question is the one that goes un-asked. Knowledge is a good thing - keep asking questions.

The body does not "forget" how to use vitamins...it is hard-written into the cellular instructions known as DNA. Vitamin C is not only important for the immune system but it is also very important for collagen, connective tissue, bones, gums, skin, eyes, adrenal glands, etc., and it has anti-inflammatory, anti-viral, anti-histamine (anti-allergy), and anti-oxidant properties. Vitamin C is so important that we would eventually die if our bodies ran out of it... The original "limies" were sailors who ate limes for vitamin C on long ocean voyages.

L-lysine is also good for those fighting viruses. And Elderberry acts as an inhibitor of the reproductive process of viruses, so is good to take as preventative and also for if you do have a viral infection.

One thing we can do is to turn our worries into action plans. Instead of worrying about getting the flu, we can prepair for it - through prevention (hand sanitizing after a doctor appointment is smart) by supporting our immune system, washing hands frequently, avoiding contact with those who are sick, and keeping our diets/lifestyle as healthy as we are able to. We can also prepair for flu by having a "flu kit" on hand - a week's worth of easy to fix foods on hand, plenty of cleenex for the runny nose/sneezing/coughing, maybe some over-the-counter flu medicine (such as Vicks VapoRub, Tylenol Cold & Sinus, cough drops, etc., and/or some herbs & such that help with viral infections), and a plan for keeping your family free from the flu (i.e, spouses refrain from smooching ;) & wear a mask when healthy family members are in the same room, always cover your sneezes/coughs, wash hands frequently, etc., and some quiet activities that can be done in bed or while relaxing (such as reading a book or watching a movie) - plenty of rest and fluids are very important when sick.

And keep in mind that many of the detox methods discussed on this board can also be very good for us if we have an acute infection such as the flu, too. I think those who have the hardest time with the swine flu are actually those who's immune system is overly aggressive in attacking the virus, leading to inflammation that can be quite serious. So there may be a slight advantage to having a mildly suppressed immune system when dealing with the swine flu.

Most importantly, realize we are here for you - getting your concerns out in the open is good, we all can help encourage you just as you have encouraged us from your posts here. It may not seem like it, but everyone here is equally important to this community - without all of us this community wouldn't exist.

I hope this helps - take care,
-Razzle
Chronic Lyme Disease, Chronic Bartonella (clinical dx only), Gluten & Sulfite Sensitivity, Many Food/Inhalant/Medication/Chemical Allergies & Intolerances, Asthma, Gut issues (dysmotility, non-specific inflammation), UCTD ("Secondary Lupus-Like Syndrome"), Osteoporosis, chronic Lymphopenia, etc.; G-Tube; Currently trying to wean off TPN.
Meds:  Pulmicort, IV Ceftazidime, Heparin (to flush PICC line), Claritin, Domperidone, Colloidal Silver (used topically), probiotics, Milk Thistle, Ailanthus, homeopathy.


blessings723
Regular Member


Date Joined Oct 2009
Total Posts : 289
   Posted 11/13/2009 5:10 PM (GMT -7)   
Razzle............I am speechless. I am hoping words will come to me in a second......... Here I was sitting here, just got off the crisis hotline b/c I'm going nuts, and then I read your post and the "sanity" and logic of it brought me back to reality. I pray for a mind that works like yours. Lyme may have stolen your health but not your wisdom; not your mind. I had read a little on the benefits of l lysine in Dr. J's book but sometimes I don't know what to believe. I have a bottle on the kitchen counter-I should have been taking it. At least I had enough sense to take the Vit C. How do i get to a place where I can enjoy a movie? How do I get to where I can forget all of this-even for a moment? My mind does not shut it out and my babies see their mother a wreck....I think i will finish this in an email to you. I know my concerns wont help lift anyone's spirits here.


I refuse to stay sick! Period. 
 
 

Post Edited (finding721) : 11/13/2009 5:15:51 PM (GMT-7)


Razzle
Veteran Member


Date Joined Aug 2007
Total Posts : 4399
   Posted 11/14/2009 11:36 PM (GMT -7)   
Finding,

I sent you an email - let me know if you did not receive it.

Take care,
-Razzle
Chronic Lyme Disease, Chronic Bartonella (clinical dx only), Gluten & Sulfite Sensitivity, Many Food/Inhalant/Medication/Chemical Allergies & Intolerances, Asthma, Gut issues (dysmotility, non-specific inflammation), UCTD ("Secondary Lupus-Like Syndrome"), Osteoporosis, chronic Lymphopenia, etc.; G-Tube; Currently trying to wean off TPN.
Meds:  Pulmicort, IV Ceftazidime, Heparin (to flush PICC line), Claritin, Domperidone, Colloidal Silver (used topically), probiotics, Milk Thistle, Ailanthus, homeopathy.


blessings723
Regular Member


Date Joined Oct 2009
Total Posts : 289
   Posted 11/15/2009 1:20 AM (GMT -7)   
Recieved. :) Thank you Razzle. I sent you one back.
I refuse to stay sick! Period. 
 
 

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