Buhner Protocol along with antibiotics

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running wild
Regular Member


Date Joined Mar 2013
Total Posts : 174
   Posted 3/18/2014 10:54 AM (GMT -6)   
Hello all - I am looking into trying the Buhner protocol for Lyme Disease and, possibly, Bartonella.

I have been taking Bicillin shots for months, along with Azithromax and pulsing Tindinax. I'm trying to find out two things:

1. Can Buhner's protocol be taken while on the antibiotics?
2. Has anyone used the Buhner protocol on their own, as in without a doctor assisting?

Like many of you, I've been hurt, financially, by all this but feel something else needs to be done. I have an LLMD, but he does not seem to understand the skin fat loss symptoms I am experiencing along with wrinkling skin.

A local LLMD wants me to put up $300.00 now for an appointment in July. And I am seeing my skin get worse, so I can't wait until July.

Was diagnosed last year and have been searching for answers since. I now know this goes started about 12 years ago.

Anyone have any experience with the Buhner method or gone through it on your own/with anitbiotics?

Thanks.

rowingmom
Veteran Member


Date Joined Dec 2011
Total Posts : 1652
   Posted 3/18/2014 12:05 PM (GMT -6)   
1. Yes, Buhner says that his protocols can be used concurrently with abx. We used Japanese knotweed for both body and brain inflammation (produced by die-off) throughout our daughter's 2 years of abx treatment. And as soon as she weaned from abx I started the rest of the bartonella protocol (except l-arginine, as I can't be sure we are not dealing with viral infections) as well.

2. We do Buhner's herbs on our own. Our LLMD is pretty herb illiteriate, but gave me the OK to try them. She (the LLMD) has been pretty impressed with our results, especially once I started dosing WoodLandEssence's CSA (cryptolepis/sida/alchornea) - high doses of which produced babesia die-off symptoms in our daughter. Buhner discusses cryptolepis in his Herbal Antivirals book, and also recommends it for babesia on his website.

Our daughter had never tested positive for babesia, but I have discovered that many of her ADD/executive function difficulties are probably due to some undiagnosed protozoan/viral infection and she has responded superbly to CSA in addition to Buhner's bartonella protocol.

If you are not comfortable in tackling this on you own, Buhner's associate, Julie McIntyre is available for consults and will give you protocol suggestions.

It will be well worth your while to read his Lyme Coinfections:Mycoplasma and Bartonella book, as well as the Herbal Antiviral book. Most of the herbs suggested in these books work synergistically, and taken together they have much more of an impact than their simple additive effects. Buhner talks about this. He also teaches you various methods of preparing the herbs and the best places to source them.

Before I contacted Julie I read through the Coinfections book and got an idea of how and why the herbs work. These books are pretty big and full of paradigm changing information on how our bodies and the infections work as an ecosystem. If the ecosystem is out of balance we are sick, if in balance we have remission of symptoms.

When we first started using Japanese knotweed, I got it in SourceNaturals Resveratrol (made from knotweed, not grape skins) tablets from iHerb. After a while this became expensive (also too many fillers) and so we switched to the powdered organic herb from 1stChineseHerbs (as suggested in the Coinfections book). I prepare it as a decoction (tea) which we use 3x daily. 1 lb of powdered herb is $15 and will last approx 8 months, so a lot cheaper.

Just because herbs are natural doesn't mean they won't produce significant die-off. Both my daughter and I have yet to reach Buhner's recommended dosages for any of the herbs, but Julie said this was fine. That you don't really want to induce a herxheimer reaction while healing. Lower dosages over longer periods are just as effective.
2008 - insect bite (bruise-like rash)
2010 - Dx ADHD, motor/vocal tic disorder, high functioning aspergers, motor delay, symptoms of PANS/PANDAS autoimmune neurological syndrome.
Jan 2011 – bartonella pain symptoms begin.
June 2011 - Igenex PCR positive bartonella, IND lyme. CD57 18. Positive ANA (speckled type), heterozygous A1298C MTHFR. Multiple Abx, herbal, homeopathic treatment.
April 2013 - Weaned from abx treatment. Continuing wth Buhner, Byron White, methylation/detox protocols, Terry Wahls gf/cf/sf diet. Minimizing EMF exposure
Dec 2013 – Symptoms 98% resolved. ANA titers negative.

running wild
Regular Member


Date Joined Mar 2013
Total Posts : 174
   Posted 3/18/2014 12:45 PM (GMT -6)   
Rowingmom,

Thanks for the thorough answer. Have read about Julie McIntyre online and thought that might be a good help without dealing with yet another doctor visit.

I have ordered Healing Lyme and will also check into the other books you recommended.

You seem to have had good experiences with Buhner, so I am happy for you and your daughter. I can see I have a lot to learn and appreciate your insight.

Thanks again. maybe others will throw in what they have experienced also.

rowingmom
Veteran Member


Date Joined Dec 2011
Total Posts : 1652
   Posted 3/18/2014 1:58 PM (GMT -6)   
The Healing Lyme book is pretty out of date and doesn't go into through discussions of the infection paradigm that the newer books do.

I actually have a sense that Buhner doesn't think lyme plays as big a role in overall symptomology anymore. That the big players are actually the other infections.

Don't be afraid to experiment with the various herbs, just don't start or change too many things at once or you won't know what is causing the improvement/problem/herx etc.

Here is a link to another synergistic herbal protocol that seems to have a good handle on detoxing using herbs:

http://lyme-morgellons.com/

Detoxing is so important.
2008 - insect bite (bruise-like rash)
2010 - Dx ADHD, motor/vocal tic disorder, high functioning aspergers, motor delay, symptoms of PANS/PANDAS autoimmune neurological syndrome.
Jan 2011 – bartonella pain symptoms begin.
June 2011 - Igenex PCR positive bartonella, IND lyme. CD57 18. Positive ANA (speckled type), heterozygous A1298C MTHFR. Multiple Abx, herbal, homeopathic treatment.
April 2013 - Weaned from abx treatment. Continuing wth Buhner, Byron White, methylation/detox protocols, Terry Wahls gf/cf/sf diet. Minimizing EMF exposure
Dec 2013 – Symptoms 98% resolved. ANA titers negative.

tickbite666
Veteran Member


Date Joined Mar 2014
Total Posts : 1604
   Posted 3/18/2014 2:36 PM (GMT -6)   
Lostman,

I also second everything rowingmom has been doing.

I have an LLMD for my ABX and she has recommended Cats Claw and Crypto when I was on IV Doxy, Bactrim DS, and Tindamax. At that point my Babs had become Mepron resistant, so I started more research with Buhner herbs on my own.

I've also Japanese Knotweed, Cats Claw and CSA to my recent Rifampin, mino, and plaquinel Bart ABX protocol.

GSE and a good quality Colloidal Silver are also cost effective remedies in the battle.

I did not have the good luck with the herbs as rowingmon and her daughter had, and have since backed off to ABX only with recent good progress.

Add new items one at a time, and ramp up adding drops slowly.

Maine76
Veteran Member


Date Joined Jan 2014
Total Posts : 993
   Posted 3/18/2014 4:11 PM (GMT -6)   
What's is the fat loss all about, from where? I'm curious as to what it means..
Excuse typos and or spelling and grammatical errors. I try to proofread, it's hard right now. Believed to be infected at least 28 yrs, dx 2012. Kiddos with congenital lyme. I am a nurse but a sick stay at home mom currently.

running wild
Regular Member


Date Joined Mar 2013
Total Posts : 174
   Posted 3/18/2014 4:35 PM (GMT -6)   
Thanks for all the help. Working through all this is like going through a maze in a daze.

The fat loss? Still not sure if it is ACA (acrodermatitis chronica atrophicans) or my doctor says auto immune reaction. Just have lost most fat on my body and it shows in skin. Very frustrated with it. No muscle loss so I work out enough to keep the fat loss les noticeable, even though my friends can tell (I always worked out with weights and used to be a good runner in Atlanta).

My main goal is to stop the loss of fat under my skin, then worry about other co-infections. So I'm looking wherever I can.

Maine76
Veteran Member


Date Joined Jan 2014
Total Posts : 993
   Posted 3/18/2014 4:43 PM (GMT -6)   
I gotcha, I hope it gets fixed. It is not fun feeling sick and having your appearance change before it should.
Excuse typos and or spelling and grammatical errors. I try to proofread, it's hard right now. Believed to be infected at least 28 yrs, dx 2012. Kiddos with congenital lyme. I am a nurse but a sick stay at home mom currently.

Maine76
Veteran Member


Date Joined Jan 2014
Total Posts : 993
   Posted 3/18/2014 4:57 PM (GMT -6)   
I found this http://archderm.jamanetwork.com/Mobile/article.aspx?articleid=524461
Excuse typos and or spelling and grammatical errors. I try to proofread, it's hard right now. Believed to be infected at least 28 yrs, dx 2012. Kiddos with congenital lyme. I am a nurse but a sick stay at home mom currently.

running wild
Regular Member


Date Joined Mar 2013
Total Posts : 174
   Posted 3/19/2014 10:26 AM (GMT -6)   
Maine 76,

Thanks for the information. I have searched ACA for a year or more and never came across that information. Makes me wonder why ACA is not treated with chloroquine phosphate. I am tired of seeing my skin get worse.

Hope your situation improves and you find the needed path to health.

Maine76
Veteran Member


Date Joined Jan 2014
Total Posts : 993
   Posted 3/19/2014 11:16 AM (GMT -6)   
Well tell your doc to get on it! I know here in Maine we have a couple derms who deal with lyme. Have you looked for a lyme literate dermatologist. I'm sorry about the financial hit, I know how stressful that is. It's hard enough just being sick without all the other worries. I hope that was helpful and you find the right dr.

I am supposed to get a picc line in a few weeks so hopefully that will be the right start.
Excuse typos and or spelling and grammatical errors. I try to proofread, it's hard right now. Believed to be infected at least 28 yrs, dx 2012. Kiddos with congenital lyme. I am a nurse but a sick stay at home mom currently.

running wild
Regular Member


Date Joined Mar 2013
Total Posts : 174
   Posted 3/19/2014 11:58 AM (GMT -6)   
I've contacted Julie McIntyre, as Rowingmom mentioned, to help start the Buhner protocol. I have an LLMD, but he is a bit thrown by the skin and fat loss. That is why I am thinking about mixing in natural with the antibiotics.

I understand how frustrating it is when you have kids and are feeling bad. I now coach mine in high school track, but it takes it out of me fast. ARe your kids young? Lot of energy expanded taking care of the young ones, specially if they are dealing with the same problem, which has you dealing with double Lyme.

As hard as it is, being positive as much as possible helps. I try, but as you can see by my name on the boards, I was not positive when I first came to Healing Well. Wish I could change the name because it sounds too much like a victim.

My belief is if we begin identifying with what is ailing us, ut only makes things worse. Trying to remember the healthy days and get back to them. Hope that for you and your kids.

Maine76
Veteran Member


Date Joined Jan 2014
Total Posts : 993
   Posted 3/19/2014 12:21 PM (GMT -6)   
My kids are all involved in sports and I'm constantly going to this and that and taught my 9 yr old how to pitch last year. I couldn't move my arm for a while! Lol I've never been one to let feeling sick stop me. I was infected as child and had symptoms most of my life. I only had a dr that tested me last year and said my symptoms had been screaming lyme since the age of 9 when my ace went numb and I had cardiac manifestions.

My youngest are 17 mths and 2 1/2, so I'm very busy regardless of how I feel. My oldest child is 15 and a freshman, I'm 37. I have said in many ways it's good because my family has forced my hand to do things I know otherwise I would not do, because of feeling sick.

Toughest part is I'm not the only one in my family with lyme. My 11 yr old son has his first LLMD appt the 26th.

running wild
Regular Member


Date Joined Mar 2013
Total Posts : 174
   Posted 3/27/2014 12:58 PM (GMT -6)   
Ropwingmom,

How did your son's appointment go? Just hoping it went well and getting things figured out.

irene0711
New Member


Date Joined Feb 2018
Total Posts : 6
   Posted 2/21/2018 5:48 AM (GMT -6)   
hello rowingmom, do you have your own blog I could read all your post about how you help your girl to overcome all the issues? My son has autism with speech delay. He has regression from MMR and menb injection. We didn't do any virsus panel test but i believe he is a viral kid. He had progress with Valtrex in last year but we stopped after 2 month because his kidney couldn't handle it.

I read on autismweb forum some parents recommend Dr Buhner's protocol and I bought his books to read.
But still no idea where to start from. One of the forum member is highly recommend to read all your post and he got idea from you and his child is almost recovery from autism.

many thanks for your help.

rowingmom said...
1. Yes, Buhner says that his protocols can be used concurrently with abx. We used Japanese knotweed for both body and brain inflammation (produced by die-off) throughout our daughter's 2 years of abx treatment. And as soon as she weaned from abx I started the rest of the bartonella protocol (except l-arginine, as I can't be sure we are not dealing with viral infections) as well.

2. We do Buhner's herbs on our own. Our LLMD is pretty herb illiteriate, but gave me the OK to try them. She (the LLMD) has been pretty impressed with our results, especially once I started dosing WoodLandEssence's CSA (cryptolepis/sida/alchornea) - high doses of which produced babesia die-off symptoms in our daughter. Buhner discusses cryptolepis in his Herbal Antivirals book, and also recommends it for babesia on his website.

Our daughter had never tested positive for babesia, but I have discovered that many of her ADD/executive function difficulties are probably due to some undiagnosed protozoan/viral infection and she has responded superbly to CSA in addition to Buhner's bartonella protocol.

If you are not comfortable in tackling this on you own, Buhner's associate, Julie McIntyre is available for consults and will give you protocol suggestions.

It will be well worth your while to read his Lyme Coinfections:Mycoplasma and Bartonella book, as well as the Herbal Antiviral book. Most of the herbs suggested in these books work synergistically, and taken together they have much more of an impact than their simple additive effects. Buhner talks about this. He also teaches you various methods of preparing the herbs and the best places to source them.

Before I contacted Julie I read through the Coinfections book and got an idea of how and why the herbs work. These books are pretty big and full of paradigm changing information on how our bodies and the infections work as an ecosystem. If the ecosystem is out of balance we are sick, if in balance we have remission of symptoms.

When we first started using Japanese knotweed, I got it in SourceNaturals Resveratrol (made from knotweed, not grape skins) tablets from iHerb. After a while this became expensive (also too many fillers) and so we switched to the powdered organic herb from 1stChineseHerbs (as suggested in the Coinfections book). I prepare it as a decoction (tea) which we use 3x daily. 1 lb of powdered herb is $15 and will last approx 8 months, so a lot cheaper.

Just because herbs are natural doesn't mean they won't produce significant die-off. Both my daughter and I have yet to reach Buhner's recommended dosages for any of the herbs, but Julie said this was fine. That you don't really want to induce a herxheimer reaction while healing. Lower dosages over longer periods are just as effective.

Girlie
Forum Moderator


Date Joined May 2014
Total Posts : 32622
   Posted 2/21/2018 12:13 PM (GMT -6)   
Hi Irene - welcome to our community.


rowingmom doesn't come on here to post often..so I'm not sure if she will see your post.

Have you thought about having a consult with one of Buhner's recommended herbalists? Some of our members do that.
They can guide you with treating your son with herbals.
Moderator, Lyme Forum
Symp started April/2013; Buhner's Lyme May 15-July24/14; Igenex pos. July 3/14
Doxy: July 4-Aug.24/14;Zithro July26-Aug24/14; Amox + Proben. Aug. 29/14;
added biaxin Sept. 26/14
Disc. amox,added Ceftin Nov. 20th.;
Disc. biaxin added Buhner bart herbs Dec/14;Jan/15 pulsing Tinda (w/ Ceftin);
Abx/herb break Apr-July/15; July-mino; Aug. added Rif;
Nov./15 mino - to biaxi

irene0711
New Member


Date Joined Feb 2018
Total Posts : 6
   Posted 2/21/2018 12:39 PM (GMT -6)   
Hi Girlie, many thanks for your reply and info. Do you have and herbalists to recommend? Thanks again.


Girlie said...
Hi Irene - welcome to our community.


rowingmom doesn't come on here to post often..so I'm not sure if she will see your post.

Have you thought about having a consult with one of Buhner's recommended herbalists? Some of our members do that.
They can guide you with treating your son with herbals.

Girlie
Forum Moderator


Date Joined May 2014
Total Posts : 32622
   Posted 2/21/2018 3:56 PM (GMT -6)   
Here is a list of Buhner's recommended herbalists.


buhnerhealinglyme.com/resources/herbalists/

Tim Scott and Julie McIntyre - I've heard great things about those two in particular.



** Many will do phone consults...so may not be necessary to find one in your State.
Moderator, Lyme Forum
Symp started April/2013; Buhner's Lyme May 15-July24/14; Igenex pos. July 3/14
Doxy: July 4-Aug.24/14;Zithro July26-Aug24/14; Amox + Proben. Aug. 29/14;
added biaxin Sept. 26/14
Disc. amox,added Ceftin Nov. 20th.;
Disc. biaxin added Buhner bart herbs Dec/14;Jan/15 pulsing Tinda (w/ Ceftin);
Abx/herb break Apr-July/15; July-mino; Aug. added Rif;
Nov./15 mino - to biaxi
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