Amoxicillin vrs doxy?

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Char999
Regular Member


Date Joined Jul 2014
Total Posts : 28
   Posted 7/26/2014 11:04 AM (GMT -6)   
Why is doxy so much better then amoxicillin? I am starting with amoxicillin but wondering if I'm wasting my time?

Girlie
Forum Moderator


Date Joined May 2014
Total Posts : 31250
   Posted 7/26/2014 12:17 PM (GMT -6)   
I don't know why, but doxy seems to be one that a lot of Drs use first, especially in the earlier stages of lyme.
It seems to be the "old standard".

Having said that - there are lots of people who have healed on other antibiotics besides Doxy.

Have you asked your LLMD why he likes amoxicillin?
Symptoms started Sept, 2013 (maybe sooner?) Started Buhner's protocol May 15, 2014
Igenex positive July 3, 2014
Doxycyline started July 4, 2014
Vits D, B12, Bcomp, C, Cal/Mag, extra mag, omega3, CoQ10, Theanine, Acetyl-L-Cysteine, adrenal support, Serrapeptase, probiotics, milk thistle

Determined to beat this!!!

LymePickle
Veteran Member


Date Joined Mar 2014
Total Posts : 2132
   Posted 7/26/2014 6:17 PM (GMT -6)   
Actually there are many medications that work much better than amoxicillin and doxycycline. Both of these medications generally just kill the lyme as it is reproducing and have less of an effect when they aren't in their growth phases or log phase of growth. Doxy does a better job of killing growing spirochetes than does amoxicillin.

But for non growing spirochetes in stationary phase of growth. Amoxicillin just kills 24% , whereas doxycycline kills 32-25% of the stationary phase. That is over a course of 7 days. Doxy is generally preferred because it also gets the intracellular form of lyme too whereas amoxicillin doesn't have much of an effect on this kind of lyme germ.

Biaxin or clarithromycin is actually a little stronger against persistors than either doxycycline or amoxicillin. Killing 30-35% of the persistors.

The best drug commonly used actually is cefuroxime or called ceftin. This one kills 55% of the persistors over 7 days. But this one doesn't treat the intracellular form or cyst forms.

Then minocycline might be a better choice than doxy because it dissolves into lyme twice as good. But can't find any data on this one.

Amoxicillin does have a nice benefit to it though in that it is really not toxic compared to many other drugs and usually very well tolerated as long as the patient is not allergic.
I am taking 1500 mg amoxicillin twice daily with 500 mg GSE twice daily. I also take Septra DS twice daily.
I'm also taking daily detox, greens +, vitamin D, immune building mushroom mix, ashwagandha, Meriva -500 concentrated curcumin, NT factor, kelp, low dose naltrexone, coconut oil, and chlorella. I take serrapeptase and lumbrokinase for biofilms.
Caught Lyme, Bartonella, and Mycoplasma Pneumonia from a friends tear in an unlucky casual contact. Lyme is definitely spread in bodily fluids and I am living proof of that.

LymePickle
Veteran Member


Date Joined Mar 2014
Total Posts : 2132
   Posted 7/26/2014 6:53 PM (GMT -6)   
Hi Mister Mike. I would say amoxy does work but not very well compared to other antibiotics. It definitely has a plus side in that it is not toxic and easily tolerated.

I would say for cell wall drugs, ceftin is definitely the better choice. It also has really good brain penetration as well. If you go ceftin an mino you will actually have an excellent abx protocol. Just remember you will still need to use grapefruit seed extract or tinidazole for cyst forms of lyme (excellent against lyme, but carries a risk of being one of the more toxic lyme medications).

Char999
Regular Member


Date Joined Jul 2014
Total Posts : 28
   Posted 7/27/2014 6:04 AM (GMT -6)   
Thanks, very interesting

Reba2000
Regular Member


Date Joined Apr 2014
Total Posts : 261
   Posted 7/27/2014 8:55 AM (GMT -6)   
LymePickle said...
Actually there are many medications that work much better than amoxicillin and doxycycline. Both of these medications generally just kill the lyme as it is reproducing and have less of an effect when they aren't in their growth phases or log phase of growth. Doxy does a better job of killing growing spirochetes than does amoxicillin.

But for non growing spirochetes in stationary phase of growth. Amoxicillin just kills 24% , whereas doxycycline kills 32-25% of the stationary phase. That is over a course of 7 days. Doxy is generally preferred because it also gets the intracellular form of lyme too whereas amoxicillin doesn't have much of an effect on this kind of lyme germ.

Biaxin or clarithromycin is actually a little stronger against persistors than either doxycycline or amoxicillin. Killing 30-35% of the persistors.

The best drug commonly used actually is cefuroxime or called ceftin. This one kills 55% of the persistors over 7 days. But this one doesn't treat the intracellular form or cyst forms.

Then minocycline might be a better choice than doxy because it dissolves into lyme twice as good. But can't find any data on this one.

Amoxicillin does have a nice benefit to it though in that it is really not toxic compared to many other drugs and usually very well tolerated as long as the patient is not allergic.


Great information. What about tindamax? I keep hearing about that being the best for killing lyme because it busts the cysts.

Reba2000
Regular Member


Date Joined Apr 2014
Total Posts : 261
   Posted 7/27/2014 8:58 AM (GMT -6)   
Mister Mike said...
Thanks Lyme Pickle. I've been taking Ammox with Rifampin and am not seeing lots of result, so your explanation about how Ammox works (or doesn't work) is very helpful. It seems perhaps I need to add the Mino and Ceftin my LLMD prescribed sooner than later. (I was trying to slowly ramp up)


Be patient with Rifampin (assuming you have bart/erlichia or both). When I first added Rifampin to the doxy, I felt terrible for 2 months. Half the day I would feel heavy brain fog, the other half I would feel fine. It went on for 2 months with no improvement, and literally the day before I went to my LLMD to request a protocol change, the daily fog started to go away. Kind of seemed like a miracle.

I don't know a lot about the science here, but I know Rifampin crosses the BBB. It's a heavy hitter, and I think it has been fundamental to stabilizing me. I still take my two pills 3 hours apart...this week I'm gonna start taking them together so I may be back in herxville for a little while.

Traveler
Forum Moderator


Date Joined May 2007
Total Posts : 36310
   Posted 7/27/2014 9:35 AM (GMT -6)   
In Burrascano's paper, "Advanced Topics in Lyme Disease", he states (although I made it in italics for ease of finding it).
Page 14:
"Thus the goal is to try to achieve sustained blood and tissue levels.
However, since blood levels are extremely variable among patients, peak and trough levels should be measured (for details, refer to the antibiotic dosage table). Because of its short half-life and need for high levels,
amoxicillin is usually administered along with probenecid.
An extended release formulation of amoxicillin+clavulanate (“Augmentin XR”) may also be considered if adequate trough levels are difficult to attain."


Page 18
ANTIBIOTIC CHOICES AND DOSES
ORAL THERAPY:
Always check blood levels when using agents marked with an *, and adjust dose to achieve a peak level above ten and a trough greater than three.
Because of this, the doses listed below may have to be raised. Consider Doxycycline first in early Lyme due to concern for Ehrlichia co-infections.

*Amoxicillin
-
Adults: 1g q8h plus probenecid 500mg q8h; doses up to 6 grams daily are often needed.

www.lymeneteurope.org/files/burrascano-lyme-guidelines-october-2008.pdf

There is a lot of good information in this paper and I would encourage all to read through it! Even if you are using herbals only! It explains much and is relatively easy to read!
Herb only treatment for Lyme & Bart ended Dec. 2011 - no active symptoms -Herb only treatment for Babesia ended Dec. 2012 - no active symptoms
Healed from tick-borne infections, now healing from the damage they left behind.
www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=30&m=2977364

Had Lyme, Bart, Babs, RMSF, Ehrlichia, Myco, Anaplasmosis, EBV

Questions? Please email me!!!

LymePickle
Veteran Member


Date Joined Mar 2014
Total Posts : 2132
   Posted 7/27/2014 1:03 PM (GMT -6)   
Ah. Traveler you mentioned a Lyme Literate Doctors name!

We have data now that ceftin is superior over amoxi for Lyme. Probably over twice as effective.

Dr.Bs notes is that there is a "fluids compartment" and "tissues compartment". I believe the cell wall drugs only work in fluid compartments.

Reba2000 - tindimax, tinidazole, or tini... Is the #1 medicine to bust cysts and beats everything else. It even breaks apart Lyme biofilms. But this is also one of the more toxic medications. It was also noted that if a Lyme spirochete ever turns into a cyst, concentrations of just 0.125 ug/ml can kill it! This is very low concentrations and probably reachable with just a single 250 mg pill of tinidazole. Higher concentrations are needed for cysts that are older
I am taking 1500 mg amoxicillin twice daily with 500 mg GSE twice daily. I also take Septra DS twice daily.
I'm also taking daily detox, greens +, vitamin D, immune building mushroom mix, ashwagandha, Meriva -500 concentrated curcumin, NT factor, kelp, low dose naltrexone, coconut oil, and chlorella. I take serrapeptase and lumbrokinase for biofilms.
Caught Lyme, Bartonella, and Mycoplasma Pneumonia from a friends tear in an unlucky casual contact. Lyme is definitely spread in bodily fluids and I am living proof of that.

Traveler
Forum Moderator


Date Joined May 2007
Total Posts : 36310
   Posted 7/27/2014 1:49 PM (GMT -6)   
"Ah. Traveler you mentioned a Lyme Literate Doctors name!"
Yes, I was mentioning one of his papers, which has been a gold standard for treatment for years now- not giving out his contact info. And - I believe- he was the first LLMD to loose his license trying to treat his patients for these diseases, so he's no longer in practice from what I understand - although I do have to say this is based on information I found back in 2008.

"We have data now that ceftin is superior over amoxi for Lyme. Probably over twice as effective."

Do you have a link for this information? I'm not questioning you, I would like this info for my own "collection". Although I would really appreciate it if you would include some links with your information. We all need to understand where our information is coming from, rather than just "someone said". :-)
Herb only treatment for Lyme & Bart ended Dec. 2011 - no active symptoms -Herb only treatment for Babesia ended Dec. 2012 - no active symptoms
Healed from tick-borne infections, now healing from the damage they left behind.
www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=30&m=2977364

Had Lyme, Bart, Babs, RMSF, Ehrlichia, Myco, Anaplasmosis, EBV

Questions? Please email me!!!

Girlie
Forum Moderator


Date Joined May 2014
Total Posts : 31250
   Posted 7/27/2014 1:58 PM (GMT -6)   
Mike - I think that the antibiotics should be evenly spaced, if possible. ie: 7:00 a.m and 7:00 p.m. - that way it's consistently in your blood?
Then from 9:00 to 5:00 I try to get in all my "extras".
Someone correct me if I'm wrong. Can't remember if I read this or if I'm just assuming.

Trav - yes, Isn't Dr. B. the one in "under our skin" ? (There was a LL doc featured in that video who lost his license)
Symptoms started Sept, 2013 (maybe sooner?) Started Buhner's protocol May 15, 2014
Igenex positive July 3, 2014
Doxycyline started July 4, 2014
Buhner's herbs stopped July 24
Zithromax started July 26, 2014
Vits D, B12, Bcomp, C, Cal/Mag, extra mag glycinate, omega3, CoQ10, Theanine, Acetyl-L-Cysteine, adrenal support, Serrapeptase, probiotics, milk thistle, curcumin

Determined to beat this!

Traveler
Forum Moderator


Date Joined May 2007
Total Posts : 36310
   Posted 7/27/2014 2:07 PM (GMT -6)   
It's been too long since I've seen Under Our Skin, Girlie, so I'm not sure. Like many, I didn't like watching that movie - it brought all of my own symptoms to light and I realized that I sympathized with the Lyme patients a little too much! The movie made me cry.
Herb only treatment for Lyme & Bart ended Dec. 2011 - no active symptoms -Herb only treatment for Babesia ended Dec. 2012 - no active symptoms
Healed from tick-borne infections, now healing from the damage they left behind.
www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=30&m=2977364

Had Lyme, Bart, Babs, RMSF, Ehrlichia, Myco, Anaplasmosis, EBV

Questions? Please email me!!!

Girlie
Forum Moderator


Date Joined May 2014
Total Posts : 31250
   Posted 7/27/2014 2:47 PM (GMT -6)   
I know Trav - it made me cry, too. I seem to like to punish myself that way.

But, even prior to lyme, I liked watching sad movies. Must be cathartic for me.
Symptoms started Sept, 2013 (maybe sooner?) Started Buhner's protocol May 15, 2014
Igenex positive July 3, 2014
Doxycyline started July 4, 2014
Buhner's herbs stopped July 24
Zithromax started July 26, 2014
Vits D, B12, Bcomp, C, Cal/Mag, extra mag glycinate, omega3, CoQ10, Theanine, Acetyl-L-Cysteine, adrenal support, Serrapeptase, probiotics, milk thistle, curcumin

Determined to beat this!

Girlie
Forum Moderator


Date Joined May 2014
Total Posts : 31250
   Posted 7/27/2014 7:14 PM (GMT -6)   
Mister Mike: I forgot to mention - now that I've added a second antibiotic, I actually take it an hour or so after the first one. I know the pharmacist told me when I bought them they could be taken together...but a veteran forum member said she did that...and I thought it was a good idea. Let one start to get absorbed, etc. and then add another.

But, it does get challenging if you have a third one...and then all the supplements to time everything.
Symptoms started Sept, 2013 (maybe sooner?) Started Buhner's protocol May 15, 2014
Igenex positive July 3, 2014
Doxycyline started July 4, 2014
Buhner's herbs stopped July 24
Zithromax started July 26, 2014
Vits D, B12, Bcomp, C, Cal/Mag, extra mag glycinate, omega3, CoQ10, Theanine, Acetyl-L-Cysteine, adrenal support, Serrapeptase, probiotics, milk thistle, curcumin

Determined to beat this!
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