Does bartonella herx?

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LymePickle
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   Posted 1/23/2015 11:25 PM (GMT -6)   
Ya just wondering this, does bartonella cause a herx reaction in the body as it is treated?

I asked my LLMD this and he is saying lyme causes a herx but not bartonella. It maybe that as some of the abx that treat bart are also treating lyme there maybe a herx.

But I listened to a rheumatologist podcast who happened to find many of his patients actually have bartonella and so he uses long term double antibiotics to treat them for between 6 months to a year. He said it does get worse for a month or two particularly in the joints and then from there a gradual reduction in symptoms.

So I don't really know? Does anyone think bart does herx or no? Or what is your experience with treating it?

Kitkate
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Date Joined Jun 2014
Total Posts : 148
   Posted 1/23/2015 11:28 PM (GMT -6)   
I know Buhner says in the Bart and Mycoplasma book that no you don't herx from Bart.

Simela1
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Date Joined Dec 2014
Total Posts : 1224
   Posted 1/24/2015 12:29 AM (GMT -6)   
Interesting, than it means that the pains I am starting to see are either lyme infection, barto infection or lyme herx. Hmmmmm, I'm still lost! LOL Can you guys narrow things down even more, so I know what the heck is wrong?
Healed 90% after 1 yr of 3 abx cocktails for Lyme and Bartonella.
No treatment for the past 5 years.
I will soon add herbs and try to get rid of the 10% left.
I was sure I was going to die and I made my funeral arrangements.
Love God, trust Him, and He will heal you.
I felt I was slipping down fast, and He caught me by my hand.
"I can't do it... I must do it... I will do it"

Jackie Moon
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Date Joined Apr 2014
Total Posts : 406
   Posted 1/24/2015 2:31 AM (GMT -6)   
You can see posts on my bart neuro herxes. HELL. They were directly from taking medicine and a die off. I am not sure what you LLMD is talking about. Maybe it is a "technicality" of what a herx is but my symptoms got much more intense on bart meds before they got better. Lots of others will share this as well too.

http://flash.lymenet.org/scripts/ultimatebb.cgi/topic/1/65655

Jackie Moon
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Date Joined Apr 2014
Total Posts : 406
   Posted 1/24/2015 2:34 AM (GMT -6)   
Also if you go to Galaxy Diagnostics page ( they specialize in bartonella testing ) you can see some stories of people that got bartonella and what they experienced getting better. Pretty intense.

Traveler
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Date Joined May 2007
Total Posts : 36310
   Posted 1/24/2015 12:02 PM (GMT -6)   
Well, I had one doozy of a 3 week herx when I started treating for Bartonella - and many do! So I have no idea why any doc (even Buhner) would say that it doesn't!!

My herxes were directly connected to introducing Houttuynia to my protocol - and the herxes were controlled by how much Houttuynia I took. Considering those that know about this herb all say it works for Bartonella, I'm not sure how they would justify the herx that I had!!
Herb only treatment for Lyme & Bart ended 12/11 - no active symptoms for 2 yrs -Herb only treatment for Babesia ended 12/12
www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=30&m=2977364
Had Lyme, Bart, Babs, RMSF, Ehrlichia, Myco, Anaplasmosis, EBV
Back in treatment for new Lyme case 8/2014
*I can usually post a link to any info that I post. Wish to see a link? Please just ask!

LymePickle
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Date Joined Mar 2014
Total Posts : 2132
   Posted 1/24/2015 12:12 PM (GMT -6)   
You know what? I actually think bartonella DOES herx. I was just so caught up that I have lyme and this and that and just believed my LLMD and buhner. Maybe they are so used to dealing with patients that have lyme and bart that they just don't know? Not sure if either one actually had lyme and bart themself.

I too had a reaction to Houttuynia, and when I went on clarithromycin, mino, and septra DS, I had constant herx for 3 straight weeks as well. I don't know I thought it was lyme!

Also the doc that treats just bartonella says yes it does get worse before it gets better. For a good 2 months in his patients then a gradual feeling of getting better. This is in patients who have only bartonella.

Anyone else know if bart herxes? There is actually a chance that maybe I didn't get lyme and if i did it is very well likely that it is treated by now. darn bart is still a problem!!!
A pooper scooper trooper. Battling bartonella, Lyme, and mycoplasma.

Somewhere around 90% recovered... Not easy to get the last 10%! open to any advice I can get!

Summersun
Regular Member


Date Joined Apr 2014
Total Posts : 451
   Posted 1/24/2015 5:08 PM (GMT -6)   
When I increase my drops for Bartonella I herx like crazy on just the smallest amount!

rowingmom
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Date Joined Dec 2011
Total Posts : 1652
   Posted 1/24/2015 10:16 PM (GMT -6)   
With bartonella-specific treatment our daughter had bartonella-specific herxes. Long bone pain (both shin and forearm), pick-like headache, bottom of the foot pain, palpitations and panic attacks. These antimicrobials have included rifampin/biaxin, A-Bart (which produced instant herx reactions) and houttuynia.

These antimicrobials did not produce other symptoms indicative of different infections. Not lyme symptoms (ie joint pain or swelling), not babesia symptoms (air hunger, thigh pain, dry cough, sighing, chest pressure).

The antimicrobials specific for babesia did not produce any bartonella or lyme die-off symptoms.

I have great respect for Buhner, but I do not agree with him on this issue.
13 yo daughter:
2010 - Dx ADHD, Tourette’s, Aspergers, motor delay, PANS/PANDAS
June 2011 - Igenex PCR positive bartonella, IND lyme. CD57 18. Positive ANA (speckled type), heterozygous A1298C MTHFR. Multiple Abx, herbals/homeopathics
April 2013 - ANA titers negative. Weaned abx. Start Buhner bartonella protocol, methylation/detox protocols, organic PerfectHealthDiet gf/cf/sf. Minimize EMF exposure
Nov 2013 – Clinical babesia diagnosis. Start Buhner babesia protocol
Sept 2014 – Symptoms 99% resolved

Jackie Moon
Regular Member


Date Joined Apr 2014
Total Posts : 406
   Posted 1/25/2015 12:04 AM (GMT -6)   
@Rowingmom interesting what you mentioned.

I too get specific bartonella herxes for specific meds.

Tinidazole was spine pain herxes

Rifampin was intense leg pain and foot inflammation herxes

Houttuynia...well that was brain inflammation and lymph nodes....I haven't got over that one yet or even been able to go back on Houttuynia though I am sure it was killing those bugs from hell.

LymePickle
Veteran Member


Date Joined Mar 2014
Total Posts : 2132
   Posted 1/25/2015 1:56 AM (GMT -6)   
Rowing mom- same thing happened to me!!! Doing the clarithromycin/mino/septra combo in August I got the burning limbs forearms, and even in my hands. I just thought it was a lyme herx. But now looking back it seems like it was bartonella. I think 80-90% of my symptoms were bart the whole time.

I think Buhner and my LLMD usually see their patients with a lyme and bart together infection, so they just think the bart herxes are from lyme. I believed them so I thought bart doesn't herx and it was lyme!

But yes that doctor who treated bart (he just treats bart) indeed says there are a worsening of symptoms. I think at this point in time I give up on lyme treatment lol. I think it's done as I started treating 4 days after my infection. I probably beat it by now if I did get it.

I need to focus on bart. Darn bart, I might just go on a-Bart after.
A pooper scooper trooper. Battling bartonella, Lyme, and mycoplasma.

Somewhere around 90% recovered... Not easy to get the last 10%! open to any advice I can get!

Traveler
Elite Member


Date Joined May 2007
Total Posts : 36310
   Posted 1/25/2015 11:07 AM (GMT -6)   
I always question doctors when they say an absolute no with anything on these infections. Although they are usually right, I don't think we should rule out the possibility that most anything is possible.

The docs sometimes forget that they have limitations on their knowledge - and I have a great deal of respect for those docs that treat these infections successfully!! But they are human too.
Herb only treatment for Lyme & Bart ended 12/11 - no active symptoms for 2 yrs -Herb only treatment for Babesia ended 12/12
www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=30&m=2977364
Had Lyme, Bart, Babs, RMSF, Ehrlichia, Myco, Anaplasmosis, EBV
Back in treatment for new Lyme case 8/2014
*I can usually post a link to any info that I post. Wish to see a link? Please just ask!

LymePickle
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Date Joined Mar 2014
Total Posts : 2132
   Posted 1/25/2015 3:54 PM (GMT -6)   
Traveler yes you are right! I remember one time you said bartonella herxes and I think I said I think it doesn't herx. Well you are right!!! I just read from Buhner and from my LLMD that it doesn't herx and so I thought it was lyme herxing. But indeed it is bart.
A pooper scooper trooper. Battling bartonella, Lyme, and mycoplasma.

Somewhere around 90% recovered... Not easy to get the last 10%! open to any advice I can get!

Traveler
Elite Member


Date Joined May 2007
Total Posts : 36310
   Posted 1/25/2015 4:00 PM (GMT -6)   
LOL! I remember that too, and I quietly thought to myself, "yeah, right!! Just wait." LOL! There was no doubt in my mind that I had one H*ll of a herx on Houttuynia, which is specifically for Bart - and I'm far from the only one that has herxed hard on Houttuynia.

Like I said, question everything and everyone - doctors don't live in our skin and they may or may not have dealt with these infection themselves. We know that they take on different aspects in each of us.

I would encourage you to follow this through and start treatment of some type for Bart and see how you do.
Herb only treatment for Lyme & Bart ended 12/11 - no active symptoms for 2 yrs -Herb only treatment for Babesia ended 12/12
www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=30&m=2977364
Had Lyme, Bart, Babs, RMSF, Ehrlichia, Myco, Anaplasmosis, EBV
Back in treatment for new Lyme case 8/2014
*I can usually post a link to any info that I post. Wish to see a link? Please just ask!

multifacetedme
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Date Joined Jan 2016
Total Posts : 1586
   Posted 9/18/2016 5:47 PM (GMT -6)   
I know this is an old thread -but adding what I am discovering. Re-integrating Houttuynia and finding I am having an uptick of certain symptoms: pain- bottom of my feet, calf pain, and pain along the sides of my calves sort of near my shin, also fatigue. Feels like herxing on a bart herb to me.
Felt like I was dying in Dec-15, got guidance here, began questing Jan 16 changing diet, lifestyle, Buhner protocol, Zhang protocol. Elisa/Western Blot through one lab negative. IGEN-X IGM ++ band 41, ind band 31 IGg, ind band 41. Herx: cats claw, bactrim, colloidal silver, allicin. responding to treatment. symptom reduction 60%

Rikky1
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Date Joined Jun 2015
Total Posts : 2925
   Posted 9/18/2016 7:16 PM (GMT -6)   
anyone get the numbness which feels like its affecting only the outer layer of your skin? i've had this on top of my right arm between the wrist and the elbow and it started up out of nowhere 4 months ago and still happening. its not painful just feels numb/frozen-like

been treating with bart abx protocols since jan. sounds like bart or something else since these are all anti-bacterials? thx.

k07
Veteran Member


Date Joined Sep 2015
Total Posts : 2556
   Posted 9/18/2016 9:22 PM (GMT -6)   
Yes, Rikky. I get this all over. Feels like a numbing agent applied on my skin or like novacaine wearing off. I get it often on my face and it is very uncomfortable walking in a cold store in summer.

I should mention I got this prior to treatment. I am thinking it could be mold, lyme or even thyroid-related. I do have an intracellular bacteria just not sure exactly which one.

bluelyme
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Date Joined Nov 2015
Total Posts : 4915
   Posted 9/19/2016 2:26 AM (GMT -6)   
I think it damaged neves from bart ...trying high dose biotin ,royal jelly lions mane high dose cod liver oil etc etc

jennydancingfish
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Date Joined Sep 2016
Total Posts : 887
   Posted 9/19/2016 2:46 AM (GMT -6)   
According to Cowden and Buhner bartonella cannot cause herxing. According to Jaller and them what you are experiencing during a bart herx is parasite die off.....

yancync
Veteran Member


Date Joined Nov 2015
Total Posts : 551
   Posted 9/19/2016 8:29 AM (GMT -6)   
Perfect timing for me on this post. DS started abx for Bart 4 weeks ago and yesterday we noticed the classic stretch marks in the center of his back and spine plus white circular spots at the base of his neck. Today the stretch marks are gone and the white spots seem fainter.

He is pulsing rifampin, just finished a 2 week break and is starting back up today. He hasn't had any big herxes, just the marks and ongoing hot flashes and a few fevers.

When I googled bart yesterday I did read that there are not herxes with treatment but as we know everyone is different. Plus like DS, plenty of people are on multiple abx at the same time so it can be hard to tell.
Parent of 14yo DS with +Lyme test in Nov 2015, co-infections: mycoplasma (strongly +), babesia, mainly with antibiotics/anti-malerials. Supplementing with Vit D, Vit C, Vit B-12, multvitamin, milk thistle, dandelion, nettles, Burbur/Pinella, L acetyl carnitine. Magnesium oil, charcoal led to shorter herxes.

Website I started: ParentsofLymeKids.com

Planny
Regular Member


Date Joined Dec 2015
Total Posts : 55
   Posted 12/6/2017 12:33 PM (GMT -6)   
Traveler, I found your post with Chronic Tonic tea... but I have a quesiton... You said you've added Houttunya, but I could not find how many grams.
Can you, please share?
Thank you!

Planny


Traveler said...
LOL! I remember that too, and I quietly thought to myself, "yeah, right!! Just wait." LOL! There was no doubt in my mind that I had one H*ll of a herx on Houttuynia, which is specifically for Bart - and I'm far from the only one that has herxed hard on Houttuynia.

Like I said, question everything and everyone - doctors don't live in our skin and they may or may not have dealt with these infection themselves. We know that they take on different aspects in each of us.

I would encourage you to follow this through and start treatment of some type for Bart and see how you do.

mudshark
Regular Member


Date Joined Aug 2017
Total Posts : 121
   Posted 12/21/2017 8:05 PM (GMT -6)   
Reviving an old thread here . . .

I was researching herxing with bart treatment and found this thread. I've seen mixed signals on this, but I have definitely been experiencing a huge flare in my neuro symptoms. My bart-like symptoms ramped up a bit after 3 months of lyme abx treatment, then got instantly worse when adding a-bart to into the mix. I'm now 1 week into my new regimen attacking bart specifically with bactrim + doxy and my symptoms have quickly hit new levels. Still taking a-bart as well and I tried adding 1-2 drops per dose (2x per day).

I have to assume this is a herx from the bactrim, which according to my llmd hits bart really well. If things don't turn around after a few weeks he will switch me to rifampin, but if it hits harder than this that has me worried.

I've had too many instances of a ramping up of my symptoms after adding or increasing things that hit bart to be a coincidence.

gabybee
Regular Member


Date Joined Nov 2015
Total Posts : 207
   Posted 12/21/2017 9:27 PM (GMT -6)   
Umm... yes you herx from bartonella, I herx all the time when I up my drops. That stuff is strong.
22 years old, symptoms started in 2013 and was diagnosed in 2015
HHV6/EBV
Lyme
Bartonella
MTHFR
ecoli+klebsiella
Candida

Treating with multiple vitamins + Supplements, Byron white formulas, and bee venom therapy.

Girlie
Forum Moderator


Date Joined May 2014
Total Posts : 33963
   Posted 12/21/2017 10:14 PM (GMT -6)   
I know many LLMD's do say bartonella can cause herxes.

But, I think it was Buhner who said it doesn't.
Moderator, Lyme Forum
Symp started April/2013; Buhner's Lyme May 15-July24/14; Igenex pos. July 3/14
Doxy: July 4-Aug.24/14;Zithro July26-Aug24/14; Amox + Proben. Aug. 29/14;
added biaxin Sept. 26/14
Disc. amox,added Ceftin Nov. 20th.;
Disc. biaxin added Buhner bart herbs Dec/14;Jan/15 pulsing Tinda (w/ Ceftin);
Abx/herb break Apr-July/15; July-mino; Aug. added Rif;
Nov./15 mino - to biaxi

Korissa
Regular Member


Date Joined Oct 2006
Total Posts : 364
   Posted 12/21/2017 10:57 PM (GMT -6)   
I was never "bedridden" with lyme except when I was treated for bart.

It was the rifampin that gave me my worst lyme headache ever and kept me in bed barely eating or sleeping. This was even on a low dose and I had to quit it after a little more than a week.

That was definitely a herx.
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