Houttuynia for Bartonella

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k07
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   Posted 1/16/2016 11:08 AM (GMT -6)   
I know Buhner recommends Houttuynia for Bartonella. My doctor has it in my new protocol which I started Tuesday (1/2 tsp, 2x a day). I have suspected that I have Bartonella, however, I have had no reaction to this herb and I thought it was supposed to be pretty strong? I am only on my 5th day, so maybe I shouldn't speak so soon. Or, is Sida Acuta the better herb to trial for Bart?

*I am also taking Buhner Core Protocol for Lyme (Green Dragon), Red Root, Hawthorne alongside Azith & Plaq.

mpost
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   Posted 1/16/2016 11:53 AM (GMT -6)   
bartonella is not a toxic bacteria like borrelia. it lives in the endothelial tissue which is very sensitive to toxicity so the bacteria itself releases very few toxic compounds. you will not herx from Bart.

however Houttuynia is a very strong antimicrobial against many pathogens, including fungi. So you may experience a toxic reaction (herx) from other dying life forms, but never as serious as a spirochete induced herx such the one caused by lyme or syphilis.

mpost
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   Posted 1/16/2016 11:55 AM (GMT -6)   
cowden on Houttuynia /youtu.be/91iIMrXif2g

Traveler
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   Posted 1/16/2016 12:06 PM (GMT -6)   
I don't believe there is one single herb that will kick Bartonella. I used houttuynia in the treatment of my Bart infection, but it was in combination of a bunch of other herbs as I was using the Chronic Tonic as well. It is only part of a treatment.

And yes, 5 days isn't long. I didn't herx until 3 weeks after starting it's use.

You will notice that Buhner has both Sida acuta and Houttuynia in his Bartonella protocol, so it's not just one herb.
Herb only treatment for Lyme & Bart ended 12/11 - no active symptoms for 2 yrs -Herb only treatment for Babesia ended 12/12
www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=30&m=2977364
Had Lyme, Bart, Babs, RMSF, Ehrlichia, Myco, Anaplasmosis, EBV
New Lyme case 8/2014 - Healed 1/31/15
*I can usually post a link to any info that I post. Wish to see a link? Please just ask!

mpost
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   Posted 1/16/2016 12:26 PM (GMT -6)   
true. Buhner's Bart protocol is quite complex. i have his coinfections book.

it includes: knotweed, egcg, l-arginine, cordyceps, sida acuta, red root, milk thistle, hawthorn, rhodiola+ashwagadha, isatis+houttuynia+alchornea, pomegranate juice and Vit E.

the reason there are so many herbs is Bart is really hard to pacify. Even today on his wrbsite Buhner says "work in progress" below the protocol, meaning he is still not very satisfied with the results...

same is true for abx. no combination works too well. very stubborn little intracelular bacteria this Bart is.

k07
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   Posted 1/16/2016 1:34 PM (GMT -6)   
I wasn't aware that Bart was not a toxic bacteria. Thanks for that info.

I actually take most of what is listed above except sida acuta & l-arganine. Prob not at his max dosages though. I think I will add sida to get a complete protocol.

mpost
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   Posted 1/16/2016 3:49 PM (GMT -6)   
This is a quote from Buhner's coinfections book:

"BARTONELLA AND HERXHEIMER REACTIONS

Bartonella bacteria possess very low endotoxicity. This is crucial because endothelial cells have a very low tolerance for endotoxins. The lipopolysaccharide of the bacteria is at least 1,000 times less toxic than that of Salmonella bacteria. Herxheimer reactions during bartonella infection, if they exist, would seem to be occurring from something other than bartonella cellular death. For it is generally the lipopolysaccharide that is released during cell death that causes the toxic reactions known as herxing.

Some people do have periodic bouts of what they call herxing, usually in response to antibiotics. The nature of the bacteria doesn’t lend credence to the herxing being from the bartonella. One thing to keep in mind however: Those antibiotics you are taking? They don’t just kill bartonella. They kill a lot of other things as well."

Healing Lyme Disease Coinfections: Complementary and Holistic Treatments for Bartonella and Mycoplasma
www.goodreads.com/book/show/15954999-healing-lyme-disease-coinfections

CD3764
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   Posted 1/16/2016 3:51 PM (GMT -6)   
If you aren't dealing with an active case of shingles or herpes (this is per Buhner), you might want to consider adding L-arginine as well.

Per pg 344 of his new coinfection book that includes Bartonella:

"L-arginine is important to consider using during bartonella infection. It has been found to reverse many of the effects of a bartonella infection because it is specifically protective of endothelial cells and function. A number of studies have found that, by itself, can so interfere with bartonella colonization of endothelial cells that the disease progress is severely hampered."

I do recommend caution when starting since some members have had their EBV reactivate when they started L-arginine.

Since my IgG EBV titers are high, I was apprehensive about starting the supplement. I finally decided to trial 500mg once daily and was able to titrate to the recommended 1000mg AM/PM without incident.

I'm improving and I don't think a single component of any of my protocols is responsible. It's the whole package that is bringing me healing.

The whole L-arginine concept was worth the N=1 experiment in my case.
Moderator - Lyme Forum
Jul '14 started what proved to be inadequate treatment ala PCP day after nymph deer tick bite
Sept '14 met LLMD - clinically dx'd with Lyme due to Bells Palsy - confirmed via CDC positive WB
Feb '15 transitioned off abx and started full Cowden protocol along w/LDN
Aug '15 started transition to Buhner's Lyme, Babesia & Bartonella protocols
Nov '15 stopped LDN - 98% healed!!

Post Edited (cd3764) : 1/16/2016 1:55:28 PM (GMT-7)


k07
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   Posted 1/16/2016 4:03 PM (GMT -6)   
Thanks mpost & cd. My EBV igg is >600 as well as the ig nuclear antigen is high. That is why I was thinking I should avoid it. Perhaps I will trial.

Jackie Moon
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   Posted 1/16/2016 8:13 PM (GMT -6)   
mpost said...
bartonella is not a toxic bacteria like borrelia. it lives in the endothelial tissue which is very sensitive to toxicity so the bacteria itself releases very few toxic compounds. you will not herx from Bart.

however Houttuynia is a very strong antimicrobial against many pathogens, including fungi. So you may experience a toxic reaction (herx) from other dying life forms, but never as serious as a spirochete induced herx such the one caused by lyme or syphilis.



I am reading Buhner's new book. I read that part about that Buhner states about bartonella toxicity and I think it is very confusing. How can bartonella and bartonella die-offs not be the cause of so many encephalitis issues? Dr. Breitschwerdt has documented countless encephalitis / meningitis symptoms in his extensive bartonella studies. The webinar from Galaxy labs even shows the inflammation of the endothelial layer associated with die-offs. I guess it is complicated. I am just a simple man. confused ( Possibly: I do have mycoplasma which Buhner states with bartonella can cause a mega brain die-off encephalitis that I have with houttuynia )
Babesia duncaii, tularemia, mycoplasma, protomyxzoa, dengue fever - in remission. Bartonella still hanging around.

Traveler
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Date Joined May 2007
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   Posted 1/17/2016 12:43 PM (GMT -6)   
EBV can be treated with L-lysine. I've been doing this for years now. It's really nice to know that I can treat this virus any time I believe it's rearing it's ugly little head without having to go to the doc's.

umm.edu/health/medical/altmed/supplement/lysine
Herb only treatment for Lyme & Bart ended 12/11 - no active symptoms for 2 yrs -Herb only treatment for Babesia ended 12/12
www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=30&m=2977364
Had Lyme, Bart, Babs, RMSF, Ehrlichia, Myco, Anaplasmosis, EBV
New Lyme case 8/2014 - Healed 1/31/15
*I can usually post a link to any info that I post. Wish to see a link? Please just ask!

afiya4health
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Date Joined Nov 2013
Total Posts : 196
   Posted 1/18/2016 2:38 PM (GMT -6)   
Buhner is WRONG about Bartonella herxing and i wish we would stop posting his quotes as absolute facts on the disease. He doesn't even believe Houttynia is singularly effective against Bartonella. In his book he mentions it as something you can add if you really want to target Bartonella using antimicrobials. But he believes that the antimicrobials are not needed.

Houttynia is a more of a staple in Cowden's program and Buhner even mentions that on his website (he said it in response to a question about houttynia treating bartonella).

I have been treating bartonella for a long time now and i have herxed like CRAZY and i know it was Bartonella because the symptoms were from only bartonella. So yes you can herx from just bartonella.

LymePickle
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   Posted 1/18/2016 6:38 PM (GMT -6)   
I too strongly believe Bart can cause herx reactions. Careful when Buhner says in his book that bartonella causes no herxes, because I had serious burning herxes and I too thought it was not Bart but Lyme. Turns out it was a Bart herx the whole time. It's related to the swelling of endothelial cells that occurs with bartonella infection.
A pooper scooper trooper. Battling bartonella, Lyme, and mycoplasma.

Somewhere around 90% recovered... Not easy to get the last 10%! open to any advice I can get!

Traveler
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Date Joined May 2007
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   Posted 1/18/2016 7:10 PM (GMT -6)   
afiya4health said...
Buhner is WRONG about Bartonella herxing and i wish we would stop posting his quotes as absolute facts on the disease. He doesn't even believe Houttynia is singularly effective against Bartonella. In his book he mentions it as something you can add if you really want to target Bartonella using antimicrobials. But he believes that the antimicrobials are not needed.

Houttynia is a more of a staple in Cowden's program and Buhner even mentions that on his website (he said it in response to a question about houttynia treating bartonella).

I have been treating bartonella for a long time now and i have herxed like CRAZY and i know it was Bartonella because the symptoms were from only bartonella. So yes you can herx from just bartonella.


You should have read the entire quote. Seems that you missed this: "Herxheimer reactions during bartonella infection, if they exist, would seem to be occurring from something other than bartonella cellular death. For it is generally the lipopolysaccharide that is released during cell death that causes the toxic reactions known as herxing."

The other thing is that no one has ever said that it's "absolute fact" or anything to that nature. People are only letting others know WHERE the information is coming from. No one here on this forum has studied these herbs and these bacteria as much or as in depth as Buhner (or we wouldn't be here)- since he's still writing books about them, so it's only wise to consider all reliable sources of information.

I used Houttuynia as the only herb added in for treating my Bartonella infection while I was using the Chronic Tonic for Lyme - that was before Buhner ever put it in his Bart protocol.
Herb only treatment for Lyme & Bart ended 12/11 - no active symptoms for 2 yrs -Herb only treatment for Babesia ended 12/12
www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=30&m=2977364
Had Lyme, Bart, Babs, RMSF, Ehrlichia, Myco, Anaplasmosis, EBV
New Lyme case 8/2014 - Healed 1/31/15
*I can usually post a link to any info that I post. Wish to see a link? Please just ask!

project
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   Posted 1/18/2016 9:21 PM (GMT -6)   
I've wondered myself about the difference between Buhner's opinion that Bartonella doesn't cause herxes and all the reports from people on forums about Bartonella herxes.

I did a quick search and I suspect this is probably one of the papers that informed Buhner's opinion that Bartonella has low endotoxicity:

"Some unusual structural features of the B. henselae lipopolysaccharide, including the presence of a long-chain fatty acid, which are shared by the lipopolysaccharides of other bacteria causing chronic intracellular infections (e.g. Legionella and Chlamydia), may provide the molecular basis for low endotoxic potency."

Structure and biological activity of the short-chain lipopolysaccharide from Bartonella henselae ATCC 49882T.
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14766898

So it seems that the Bartonella bacterium itself isn't super toxic. So what to make of all the reports of herxing?

One possibility is that the herb taken is killing some other bacteria that is more toxic.

Another possibility is that since Bartonella is an intracellular pathogen, the herxes are from the debris of our own cells that are killed when we go after Bartonella.

The paper above states that Chlamydia also has low endotoxicity and this one corroborates that:

"The chlamydial LPS were at least 10 times less active than typical endotoxins"
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12542694

However the cpnhelp.org message board is filled with people herxing and using binders for the die off from Chlamydia Pneumoniae. They attribute this to toxic heme synthesis byproducts (porphyrins) produced inside cells that Chlamydia has infected and hijacked. Killing the cell releases these toxic metabolites.

So perhaps Bartonella could be doing something similar inside our cells that it infects, and when released these toxins create the herx we feel.
Lyme, Bartonella, Babesia, C. Pnemoniae; 20 years undiagnosed, been treating for 3 years, trying to fully heal and get closer to 100%.
Essential oils, Spooky2 Rife, Tesla Violet Ray, Cannabis Oil, Buhners' herbs, supps, sauna

CD3764
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   Posted 1/19/2016 7:57 AM (GMT -6)   
Buhner never stated that Bartonella doesn't cause herxes. He acknowledges herxing during Bartonella treatment.

Buhner is saying that it's a different mechanism causing herxes than the Bartonella bacteria itself dying.

Thank you, project, for a logical theory.
Moderator - Lyme Forum
Jul '14 started what proved to be inadequate treatment ala PCP day after nymph deer tick bite
Sept '14 met LLMD - clinically dx'd with Lyme due to Bells Palsy - confirmed via CDC positive WB
Feb '15 transitioned off abx and started full Cowden protocol along w/LDN
Aug '15 started transition to Buhner's Lyme, Babesia & Bartonella protocols
Nov '15 stopped LDN - 98% healed!!

afiya4health
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Date Joined Nov 2013
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   Posted 1/19/2016 11:45 PM (GMT -6)   
Traveler: I did read the entire quote. I'm sorry, there's just no way that the herbs are killing bacteria/fungi that have the exact same symptoms as Bartonella. I'd understand if the symptoms were a headache or tiredness, but Bartonella has very specific symptoms that point to it and only it.

project: that is an interesting finding. Maybe it's the cells. But i'm pretty sure i've heard of disease that causes the body's cells to die (maybe cancer) and the symptoms are never confused with bartonella.

cd3764: No, Buhner basically said Bartonella doesn't cause herxing. From mpost's "The nature of the bacteria doesn’t lend credence to the herxing being from the bartonella". That's pretty much saying, that along with it being low-endotoxicity, bartonella usually won't be the thing that causes herxes. Saying that something else is dying which causes the herxes = Bartonella bacteria not causing the herxing. Which I respond in saying that i've been on treatment for bart for a long time and it's definitely bartonella symptoms, not mold, candida etc.

What fungi or bacteria could die off and cause the exact same specific symptoms as Bartonella?

lymedriven
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   Posted 1/20/2016 12:08 AM (GMT -6)   
I feel i get more herx with houynnia!

Traveler
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   Posted 1/20/2016 4:42 PM (GMT -6)   
afiya4health said...
Traveler: I did read the entire quote. I'm sorry, there's just no way that the herbs are killing bacteria/fungi that have the exact same symptoms as Bartonella. I'd understand if the symptoms were a headache or tiredness, but Bartonella has very specific symptoms that point to it and only it.

project: that is an interesting finding. Maybe it's the cells. But i'm pretty sure i've heard of disease that causes the body's cells to die (maybe cancer) and the symptoms are never confused with bartonella.

cd3764: No, Buhner basically said Bartonella doesn't cause herxing. From mpost's "The nature of the bacteria doesn’t lend credence to the herxing being from the bartonella". That's pretty much saying, that along with it being low-endotoxicity, bartonella usually won't be the thing that causes herxes. Saying that something else is dying which causes the herxes = Bartonella bacteria not causing the herxing. Which I respond in saying that i've been on treatment for bart for a long time and it's definitely bartonella symptoms, not mold, candida etc.

What fungi or bacteria could die off and cause the exact same specific symptoms as Bartonella?


Well, I for one herxed my butt off when treating for Bartonella - but can I say that it was specifically Bartonella die off that was responsible? No. I was also treating for Lyme at the same time, and had Babesia, RMSF, Brucellosis and many other infections that could have been dying off and creating those issues - yes, even though I was herxing with Bartonella symptoms - but Bartonella is NOT the only infection that causes foot/leg pain or any of the other symptoms.

Were you co-infected with anything besides Bartonella at the time of your treatment for Bart? What all was in your protocol? Were they things that could have been treating another infection that you had, maybe without knowing it?

"bartonella usually won't be the thing that causes herxes" and " Bartonella doesn't cause herxing" are not the same thing. The word "usually" changes everything.
Herb only treatment for Lyme & Bart ended 12/11 - no active symptoms for 2 yrs -Herb only treatment for Babesia ended 12/12
www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=30&m=2977364
Had Lyme, Bart, Babs, RMSF, Ehrlichia, Myco, Anaplasmosis, EBV
New Lyme case 8/2014 - Healed 1/31/15
*I can usually post a link to any info that I post. Wish to see a link? Please just ask!

LymePickle
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   Posted 1/20/2016 5:42 PM (GMT -6)   
Ya the bart herx is actually from bartonella struggling and swelling up the endothelial cells that they live in. You just gotta stay the course for a bart herx, if you back off you could get into antimicrobial levels that are too low and gives bart a chance to breathe, which also resets treatment time back to day 1. So bart herxes, it's better to just put the petal to the medal and ride it through. It's not a lyme herx that releases all the toxic lipopolysaccharides.
A pooper scooper trooper. Battling bartonella, Lyme, and mycoplasma.

Somewhere around 90% recovered... Not easy to get the last 10%! open to any advice I can get!

silly sheep
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   Posted 1/24/2016 3:42 AM (GMT -6)   
Buhner does point out that 'Sida can increase fatigue and symptoms of coinfections.....My speculation is that sida breaks biofilms, and that in diseases such as bartonellosis, once that happens, instead of the bacteria being limited to one location, they are then spread more widely throughout the body, increasing thier negative impacts.'

Ergo, feels like a herx, no?

I know this is about sida, rather than houttunyia (which was the origional topic) but I thought I would chuck it in here as it seems to be relevant to the bart herx/no bart herx debate.

Since no one, not even the best of them, know exactly what ultimately produces what since there are sooo many variables involved - your body's DNA and internal 'environment', the DNA of the individual infections all mixed up in there, other predisposing health conditions, external environmental factors.....etc, etc, I don't believe there is a definitive cause and effect that fits us all. Mind you, that's just my brain trying to make sense of it all, LOL!

mpost
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   Posted 1/24/2016 3:59 AM (GMT -6)   
silly sheep said...
Buhner does point out that 'Sida can increase fatigue and symptoms of coinfections.....My speculation is that sida breaks biofilms, and that in diseases such as bartonellosis, once that happens, instead of the bacteria being limited to one location, they are then spread more widely throughout the body, increasing thier negative impacts.'


Buhner says the main role of sida acuta is protection of new red blood cells from infection. This is why it is also good for treating Babesia not just Bart.

silly sheep
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   Posted 1/24/2016 4:11 AM (GMT -6)   
Yes, mpost, it was my red blood cells that came back all screwed up on my blood test ('screwed up' is my very best technical term, lol) hence the sida I am taking. My doc thinks from symptoms I have bart but not babs, but whatever it is sida kicks my butt, lol! I am taking houttunyia too so the butt kicking could be from either of them. What I do know is that over 5 drops of sida isn't funny for me, lol! Minimum doses of houttunyia too or it all becomes a little too much...

k07
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   Posted 1/24/2016 10:57 AM (GMT -6)   
Thanks for info on Sida since I am planning on adding that in with houttunyia. I am starting to think I may not have bart at all, but want to get the most bang for my buck and cover all bases early. I am not doing as much for babs and I hope I don't regret that later due to the amount of posts regarding asymptomatic babs infections. I do have crypto so maybe I will add that in to at least hit the babs a bit.

Daffodil1234
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Date Joined Apr 2015
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   Posted 3/7/2016 7:41 AM (GMT -6)   
hi, all. i took houttuniya for bartonella and my doc just told me i can stop cuz now i have to work on my gut. i have 4 brand new bottles of nutramedix houttunyia ....if anyone wants to buy it cheaply, would love to sell it.
please let me know thanks
Daffodil
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