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Stopped abx

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Stopped abx  
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smcalumni96
Regular Member
Joined : Sep 2015
Posts : 50
Posted 5/29/2016 9:21 AM (GMT -7)
A few weeks ago my llmd changed my abx and started me on ceftin. It flattened me with fatigue and depression / brain fog rendering me non-functioning. Dr recommended I stop ceftin to give me time to "wash out". Within 24 hours I felt great. Guess I know I was dealing with a herx but I'm wondering what this means moving forward...how long do you think the Dr will keep me off? Will this make bugs persist? My depression and some fatigue is starting to creep back in but not nearly like when I was herxing.

I trust my Dr but I also know she has neglected to talk to me about diet and detox so I know much of my healing relies on learning all I can on my own.

When I did cowden protocol for 9 months I didn't herx at all and felt great. Guess I was just keeping bugs at bay. Stress caused a flare and now I'm 3 months since starting abx with constant herx. Should I stick with abx?????
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dacarte3
Veteran Member
Joined : Feb 2016
Posts : 1908
Posted 5/29/2016 9:25 AM (GMT -7)
What infection(s) was the Cowden protocol for? Assuming there's multiple protocols. Excuse my ignorance.
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Girlie
Forum Moderator
Joined : May 2014
Posts : 37425
Posted 5/29/2016 9:51 AM (GMT -7)
Can you call your Dr.? I think the best thing to do is have a conversation with her and tell her your concerns.

Many of us have taken time off during our treatments...it is necessary sometimes.

My Dr. didn't talk to me about diet, either...and as far as detoxing goes...just sold me supplements...but never mentioned epsom salt baths, or dry brushing, or even light exercise.



Edited to change 'him' to 'her'.
Moderator, Lyme Forum
Symp started April/2013; Buhner's Lyme May 15-July24/14; Igenex pos. July 3/14
Doxy: July 4-Aug.24/14;Zithro July26-Aug24/14; Amox + Proben. Aug. 29/14; added biaxin Sept. 26/14 Disc. amox,added Ceftin Nov. 20th.; Disc. biaxin added Buhner bart herbs Dec/14;Jan/15 pulsing Tinda (w/ Ceftin); Abx/herb break Apr-July/15; July-mino; Aug. added Rif; Nov. switched mino to biaxin.

Post Edited (Girlie) : 5/29/2016 11:53:57 AM (GMT-6)

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PeteZa
Veteran Member
Joined : Jul 2015
Posts : 9729
Posted 5/29/2016 10:44 AM (GMT -7)
I am so sorry that your doctor did not discuss detoxing or diet. When you talk to her next, please ask her questions. I always had a huge list when I went to my llmd. And, I seriously recommend taking a friend to listen with you because I missed a lot of the answers due to my lyme.

Here is a good link for diet -- www.tiredoflyme.com/diet.html

And here is one for detox -- www.tiredoflyme.com/detox-methods.html

Maybe ask your doctor about things from those sites.
Lyme Moderator
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Pirouette
Veteran Member
Joined : Mar 2014
Posts : 6201
Posted 5/29/2016 6:11 PM (GMT -7)
smcalumni96--

Good comments already.

I think you need to probe your MD a bit. There is a difference between herxing during treatment or after a change within the protocol (which can include fatigue and an uptick in symptoms)--and crashing. Manageable herxing is part of healing, crashing sets you back.

I would guess the ceftin is hitting the infection and that is what is causing the herxing but you might also investigate the possibility of having other issues overloading your immune system (a high viral load, or other bacterial dysbiosis in your gut).

And if you aren't also detoxing really well, your treatment will continue to overwhelm your body. So learn what you can about detoxing here (since your MD won't be of much help--and this is really disconcerting that she's not advising patients to detox) and try to match the pace at what you are killing things with the same pace of detoxing. Your herxing should just be an uptick of symptoms or maybe new symptoms get stirred up with the treatment hits new pockets of the infection--it shouldn't wipe you out.

Talk w/ your MD about slowing tx down--not necessarily stopping it. Or pulsing a few days on, a few days off. I wonder if MDs stop abruptly when patients complain of severe symptoms because they are concerned about the repercussions if patients get upset or insurance companies (or rather, their malpractice attorneys) feel like investigating (read: suing). So, it's a good idea to probe your MD so you can better understand what she is trying to accomplish by stopping altogether.

-p
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smcalumni96
Regular Member
Joined : Sep 2015
Posts : 50
Posted 5/30/2016 1:30 PM (GMT -7)
Thanks for your comments. I've self educated thanks to the help on this forum so I'm detoxing with oil pulling, dry skin brushing, glutathione, Epsom baths, alka seltzer gold, hydration, methylation support and just added activated charcoal today.

I've been tested for viruses and I guess at some point in the past I've has Epstein Barr.

So I am still on zithromax...any thoughts on the fact that 24 hrs after I stopped taking ceftin I felt great and my energy rebounded but now after 2 days of just being on zithromax I'm back to being dead tired.
1989 bells palsy/full body transient numbness
1997 depression, IBS
2015 depression worsens; positive for lyme and bartonella; c677 heterozygous, 1289 homozygous
May 2015 cowden protocol - feeling good
March 2016 deteriorating and started abx...waiting for improvement
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Girlie
Forum Moderator
Joined : May 2014
Posts : 37425
Posted 5/30/2016 1:32 PM (GMT -7)
Yup - the bugs are being killed and toxins created are too much for your detoxing to handle.

Can you bump it up a bit? Add in a few more detox methods?
Moderator, Lyme Forum
Symp started April/2013; Buhner's Lyme May 15-July24/14; Igenex pos. July 3/14
Doxy: July 4-Aug.24/14;Zithro July26-Aug24/14; Amox + Proben. Aug. 29/14; added biaxin Sept. 26/14 Disc. amox,added Ceftin Nov. 20th.; Disc. biaxin added Buhner bart herbs Dec/14;Jan/15 pulsing Tinda (w/ Ceftin); Abx/herb break Apr-July/15; July-mino; Aug. added Rif; Nov. switched mino to biaxin.
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Traveler
Elite Member
Joined : May 2007
Posts : 36317
Posted 5/30/2016 1:44 PM (GMT -7)
I agree with Girlie - the die off was just too much for your body to handle - and that you should try increasing your detoxing before restarting any treatments. The Ceftin obviously hit an infection that you need to deal with, but killing off large numbers creates too many toxins all at once. Easing into the full doses will also help. You didn't mention if you just started at full doses or not, so I thought I'd say something.
Herb only treatment for Lyme & Bart ended 12/11 - no active symptoms for 2 yrs -Herb only treatment for Babesia ended 12/12
www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=30&m=2977364
Had Lyme, Bart, Babs, RMSF, Ehrlichia, Myco, Anaplasmosis, EBV
New Lyme case 8/2014 - Healed 1/31/15 - unknowingly had Asymptomatic Babs and Asymptomatic Bart, being treated now though (2/2016)
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Pirouette
Veteran Member
Joined : Mar 2014
Posts : 6201
Posted 5/30/2016 1:46 PM (GMT -7)
Hi smcalumni96 -

It's pretty normal to be tired during treatment - this isn't like treating a UTI - this is a whole-body infection and it's best to allow your body the rest it needs whenever it cries out for it. It's clearly overwhelmed and that is not at all unusual when you're starting out treatment.

So, viruses either lie dormant or "reactivate" causing symptoms--they are not "curable". Even with treatment of antivirals they remain in our bodies. Most of the adult population has EBV but we "lymees", can certainly be overwhelmed if our immune systems are trying to heal lyme & co AND battle a reactivated viral load. And EBV is the only virus you know about--ticks can sometimes also share viruses with us (other common viruses w/ lyme are CMV, HHV-8).

I have always struggled with a high viral load (unless I was actively on antiviral meds) and my main symptom is extreme fatigue. And of course, when I started lyme & co treatment, I herxed just like you because the treatment was hard on the body and the viral load was just lying and waiting for an opportunity to pounce. It's like trying to drive a packed car up a hill in 110 degree weather with the A/C blasting... something's gotta give.

So right off the bat I want to encourage you to take an antiviral (Rx or herbal) and see if that helps lessen the load on your immune system.

But you probably also need to increase detoxing--which the charcoal will likely help with. Start slow and drink LOTS of water. And then work up to as high a dose as you can tolerate. You can even add in another binder like bentonite clay - double up. I may have already mentioned this but my tx took a huge turn when I implemented pure cholestyramine and I chase it with bentonite clay. HUGE difference (although I've also struggled w/ GI problems so not everyone needs this in their arsenals.)

When you're ON the abx, they are killing lyme and the dead debris and toxins can overwhelm the body--which is another reason you need to be detoxing as intensely as you are killing stuff. You gotta get it out of your body at the same pace you are killing it or the toxins will build up, causing more symptoms.

I've also read that the borellia microbe can be more active as it is trying to evade the abx and maybe this stirs up more symptoms.

When you're OFF the abx, your body isn't struggling as much because there is less debris toxins moving through it.

-p

Post Edited (Pirouette) : 5/30/2016 4:05:49 PM (GMT-6)

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bluelyme
Veteran Member
Joined : Nov 2015
Posts : 5187
Posted 5/30/2016 5:48 PM (GMT -7)
Zith is intercellular and could be releasing bugs that the ceftin was killing .cpn is very common coinfection and .its a pandoras box...i was happy with my fog n arthritis ..took bactrim and now have livedo and muscle wasting ...life in rocephin and zith is a little better but spirochetes are inside cells last i looked
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