Why you can get worse

I also 'heard' that Buhner said the herbs don't cause persisters.

Girlie said...
I also 'heard' that Buhner said the herbs don't cause persisters.

I think that statement by Buhner was pretty premature. There is very little science on that matter. However, herbs by nature tend to contain a range of compounds against various morphologies and biofilm structures giving them more promise therapeutically. Whether that all gets absorbed and used effectively in the body is less clear however.

That said OP, are you herxing from switching to herbs? Or do you think you're relapsing? As stated above the herbs might hit the infection on a deeper level, or they might simply be deficient in this particular case. I don't think you're going to feel worse from persister cells though. If you have persister cells it's because the abx failed to eradicate them and all that means is that stopping the abx allows the infection to resume. Persister cells tend to decrease symptoms though because they're not metabolically active spirochetes. So if you're feeling worse now they're either converting back to active spirochetes or your herbs are killing them off and causing herx. The paradox is quite annoying i know, but i don't think that forming them is your current issue regarding symptoms. It's only really an issue for maintaining remission in the long run

I think the reason herbs might work against persisters better than antibiotics is their mechanism of action. The herbs are strengthening the immune system while decreasing cytokine production, which would seem to affect the bacteria regardless of the state it's in.

Antibiotics on the other hand, are going after the bacteria directly, so if the bacteria can effectively protect itself from the antibiotic, it can survive.

Lately I've been suspecting persisters in myself as well. I've been on antibiotics for almost a year with no improvement, but have never been of a cyst-killing drug.

When I look at my blood under a microscope, I don't see anything suspicious. But if I leave that blood smear out for 24 hours and check it out again, I can find spirochetes in almost every sample I take. I think the bacteria are encysted and I can't detect them easily. I'm going to be asking my LLMD to start me on Flagyl or Tindamax next month.

i'm starting tinidazole 3x a week to deal with potential cysts. hard to say if i have them but one should definitely incorporate a cyst buster at some point during treatment to cover the bases.

Huddie, there is no test for the different forms that the Lyme bacteria can take.

When a person switches from abx to herbs, they often herx. As Psil said, herbs have a range of compounds, instead of just the single compound that abx have, so it much, much harder for the bacteria to recognize it as a danger and morph into something that can't be treated.

Also, very few herbs in Buhner's protocol actually attack the bacteria directly, but rather help build up the body to do the fighting. We will still run into the round body forms and biofilms and such because the bacteria will do this to avoid the immune function - but not nearly as aggressively as it will when only one compound is being used to directly attack the bacteria. Herbs are more about a 'sneak attack' on the bacteria, so it often creates herxing even when the person isn't sure they need more treatment.

Ha ha ha!! I sooo agree with you!!! So far it's been a 45 year long show for me!! And things are still changing!!

Huddie said...
Can one of the lyme angels please explain what this means in layman terms? Every single time I think I understand a little bit, I fall backwards. What the heck are persisters? Geez, this is starting to feel impossible to beat.

Mustard Seed, how do you get to look at your blood under a microscope? Are you in the medical/science field? Cool.

Daisies, so sorry your third is not responding well. Really sorry about that. Hugs.

The scientific community seems to be favoring the term "persister" over "cyst" as they aren't cysts in the typical sense. Both are referring to the same thing. Could also be called round-bodies.

I'm not in the medical field. I just bought my own microscope from a refurbisher for about $300 (can get them on eBay as well), and draw my own blood with one of those diabetes lancets. I learned how to smear the blood from YouTube.

Cheaper and more accurate than IGENEX (though I had that done too)... and just super cool to look at!

Oh my...it's always something.

LOL! I don't have any idea when I was infected with which infection. The LLMD that I saw back in 2007 (Dr. Edwin Masters, R.I.P.) diagnosed me with "every tick-borne pathogen" - it was literally a shock to hear that!

I was always outside any time I could be, and I was and have always been a huge pet lover, including livestock (horses, goats, cows, chickens and pigs - lol!) and so I was always outside, getting ticks in each area that I lived in, including here in Arkansas where I now live.

With your history such as it is, I would suggest that you have possibly had these infections for a long while. The thing is, it only makes so much difference. What matters most is how debilitated your body is, not how long it took for you to get this way when dealing with these infections. So don't drive yourself mad with this!

I had many long talks with my Mom (only surviving parent), and was able to piece together enough of my timeline to know that my health took a VERY sharp downward turn at the age of 7. I had all the signs of RMSF, without the rash (Yep! There's a type of RMSF that doesn't have a rash!), and from there had other signs that pointed to chronic issues with many of the other "tick-borne infections". I showed signs of chronic Bartonella next at age 8, then chronic, late stage Lyme by age 9. My "issues" continued to grow and continue throughout my life.

Oops, sorry, abbreviating things has become a way of life for me.
RMSF = Rocky Mountain Spotted Fever

It's completely pandemic, as these infections are spreading world wide. We have many members from other countries in this community. =(

LOL! No worries on all the abbreviations - although we do have a list on page 1 of the "New to Lyme?" thread that may be helpful too - although, please know, we don't mind being asked!!!

Yes, it is pandemic. A pandemic "is an epidemic of infectious disease that has spread through human populations across a large region; for instance multiple continents, or even worldwide."

I simply can't offer a good explanation for why ticks are here, all I know is that they are and we have to find a way to live "around" them.

An honestly, being bit by a tick, while not pleasant, isn't the issue. Many insects now spread these diseases. Lyme, or more appropriately, Borrelia, is originally acquired from the white footed mouse - if they didn't feed on the white footed mouse, the ticks wouldn't have Borrelia to spread to others, neither would the other insects.

now a microscope would be a fun gadget to bring into the Doctors office.. for show and tell :)